Question:

solar water heater tankI have a company that markets Solar Water Heater and Solar Pool Heaters. I’ve found it difficult to get good financing because these loans are usually under $5000. Typically I’ve used credit card companies like Conseco and Wells Fargo. But the rates are high and the payments are usually 2% of the balance, and they’re looking for golden credit since it’s an unsecured loan…

How about selling something that costs less? I’m writing this looking for some creative ideas on how to better finance Solar. A typical Solar Water Heater will save the average South Florida homeowner $40-50 a month in electricity. The system costs around $4000. Ideally we would like to get the monthly payment below the $40-50 a month that the system saves. solar water heater tankThis way it will pay for itself with the money it saves, right from the very first day…

NREL says the water comes out of the ground at 76 F in Miami, and 1320 Btu/ft^2 of sun falls on a south wall on an average January day with a 24-hour average daily air temp of 67 F and a 75 F average daily high. solar water heater tankHeating water for 4 15-minute 1.25 gpm 110 F showers per day only takes 4×15x1.25×8(110-76) = 21K Btu/day. A square foot of 120 F south-facing surface might gain 1320 Btu and lose 6h(120-71)2 = 588 Btu/day, so a so a water heater might have 21K/(1320-588) = 29 ft^2 of surface. The 30-year record January low in Miami is 30 F. You might try selling AC desuperheaters or unglazed Sky Mats from Zomeworks or Solahart heaters instead of these $4,000 systems…

Response:

The 30-year record January low in Miami is 30 F. You might try selling AC desuperheaters or unglazed Sky Mats from Zomeworks or Solahart heaters instead of these $4,000 systems…solar water heater tank I take it all those mathematical calculations were meant to say that the water doesn’t need to be heated that much anyway, so why not scimp…

No, but here’s a quote from “Solar Air Heater Plans” by Ray Wolf, ISBN 0-87857-369-3, published by Rodale Press, 33 East Minor St., Emmaus, PA 18049 in 1981…   When talking about the efficiency of a solar collector, you have to   consider not only how much energy you collect,solar water heater tank but also how much it   costs to collect it.   Let’s look at two parked cars, each collecting solar energy in a   parking lot on a sunny summer day. Car A is a used VW costing $2,500,   while car B is a “previously owned” deluxe Rolls Royce costing $42,000.   Let’s say our VW collects the solar equivalent of 1 gallon of gasoline,   while the Rolls collects the equivalent of 1 1/2 gallons of gasoline   during the day. Which is the better deal?solar water heater tank The cost per gallon of the   VW gasoline is a fraction of that of the Rolls; thus, although the   cheaper collector doesn’t collect as much energy, the cost per gallon   is far below the more efficient Rolls Royce collector.   We feel like we’ve designed a collector that works like a Rolls Royce   at a VW price. Our collector is the most cost-effective solar collector   we know of. If you build your unit with entirely new materials it should   cost you no more than $250, installed. The cheapest comparable-size   commercial unit sells for slightly over $400…   When you talk to solar salesmen, they will talk one of two numbers,   depending on which favors their collector: cost per square foot of   collector surface or Btu’s delivered per square foot of collector   surface per year. The first is an indicator of the cost of the unit,   the second, an indicator of the overall effectiveness of the unit.   A combined figure gives you the cost-effectiveness of the unit–sort of   a solar “MPG” rating. Very few salesmen want to talk these numbers. All those companies that tried that died out many years ago. I’ve sold thousands of $4000 systems for over 15 years and everyone is very happy.

Ignorance can be bliss. Why change what works?

Cost-effectiveness. I’m not about to start selling junk.solar water heater tank No one wants an ugly Solahart system on their roof, HOA’s are like nazi’s in S. Florida. Those might go over in low income areas, but if they can’t come up with $4000 they can’t come up with $2000…

And attitudes can be crippling. As far as the Sky Mat goes, I can’t find it on the Zomeworks website.

You might look at

Response:

the skymat looks like a emitter, not a collector.solar water heater tank it’s a stretch to call a solahart uglyt.htm — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The 30-year record January low in Miami is 30 F. You might try selling AC desuperheaters or unglazed Sky Mats from Zomeworks or Solahart heaters instead of these $4,000 systems… I take it all those mathematical calculations were meant to say that the water doesn’t need to be heated that much anyway, so why not scimp… No, but here’s a quote from “Solar Air Heater Plans” by Ray Wolf, ISBN 0-87857-369-3, published by Rodale Press, 33 East Minor St., Emmaus, PA 18049 in 1981…   When talking about the efficiency of a solar collector, you have to   consider not only how much energy you collect, but also how much it   costs to collect it.   Let’s look at two parked cars, each collecting solar energy in a   parking lot on a sunny summer day. Car A is a used VW costing $2,500,   while car B is a “previously owned” deluxe Rolls Royce costing $42,000.   Let’s say our VW collects the solar equivalent of 1 gallon of gasoline,   while the Rolls collects the equivalent of 1 1/2 gallons of gasoline   during the day. Which is the better deal? The cost per gallon of the   VW gasoline is a fraction of that of the Rolls; thus, although the   cheaper collector doesn’t collect as much energy, the cost per gallon   is far below the more efficient Rolls Royce collector.   We feel like we’ve designed a collector that works like a Rolls Royce   at a VW price. Our collector is the most cost-effective solar collector   we know of. If you build your unit with entirely new materials it should   cost you no more than $250, installed. The cheapest comparable-size   commercial unit sells for slightly over $400…   When you talk to solar salesmen, they will talk one of two numbers,   depending on which favors their collector: cost per square foot of   collector surface or Btu’s delivered per square foot of collector   surface per year. The first is an indicator of the cost of the unit,   the second, an indicator of the overall effectiveness of the unit.   A combined figure gives you the cost-effectiveness of the unit–sort of   a solar “MPG” rating. Very few salesmen want to talk these numbers. All those companies that tried that died out many years ago. I’ve sold thousands of $4000 systems for over 15 years and everyone is very happy. Ignorance can be bliss. Why change what works? Cost-effectiveness. I’m not about to start selling junk. No one wants an ugly Solahart system on their roof, HOA’s are like nazi’s in S. Florida. Those might go over in low income areas, but if they can’t come up with $4000 they can’t come up with $2000… And attitudes can be crippling. As far as the Sky Mat goes, I can’t find it on the Zomeworks website. You might look at

Once again … it can be done for less … much less.solar water heater tank I have bought , installed and been using for the last two years this product . The cost delivered to me was $1670.00. took 3 hours to install and does about 95% of my hot water needs with a 2 panel collector system (about 30sf). 10 months out of the year the electricity is cut off to the hot water tank , only Dec and January , on cloudy days (Lakeland Florida) , do I need electric assist. $4,000 dollars is a rip-off , maybe that’s why no one wants to finance your offerings …

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a company that markets Solar Water Heater and Solar Pool Heaters.solar water heater tank I’ve found it difficult to get good financing because these loans are usually under $5000. Typically I’ve used credit card companies like Conseco and Wells Fargo. But the rates are high and the payments are usually 2% of the balance, and they’re looking for golden credit since it’s an unsecured loan… How about selling something that costs less? I’m writing this looking for some creative ideas on how to better finance Solar. A typical Solar Water Heater will save the average South Florida homeowner $40-50 a month in electricity. The system costs around $4000. Ideally we would like to get the monthly payment below the $40-50 a month that the system saves. This way it will pay for itself with the money it saves, right from the very first day… NREL says the water comes out of the ground at 76 F in Miami, and 1320 Btu/ft^2 of sun falls on a south wall on an average January day with a 24-hour average daily air temp of 67 F and a 75 F average daily high. Heating water for 4 15-minute 1.25 gpm 110 F showers per day only takes 4×15x1.25×8(110-76) = 21K Btu/day. A square foot of 120 F south-facing surface might gain 1320 Btu and lose 6h(120-71)2 = 588 Btu/day, so a so a water heater might have 21K/(1320-588) = 29 ft^2 of surface. The 30-year record January low in Miami is 30 F. You might try selling AC desuperheaters or unglazed Sky Mats from Zomeworks or Solahart heaters instead of these $4,000 systems…

Response:

…I think it’s time to raise prices. I’ve seen other companies charging $6000. solar water heater tankThen the banks will take it on a 20 year loan.

Arrogance and ignorance is an unfortunate combination. The Sustainable Village also sells Spanish Sky Mats for about $50…     Lowest cost solar thermal panels  The least expensive way to heat enough water for regular showers. Unglazed  so only practical in areas that don’t freeze or for summer only use. Also  great for swimming pool heating. The absorber area should be chosen 50%  larger if there is no cover. The regionally different number of sunshine  hours can be allowed for by adding or deducting up to 20% absorber area.  The flow rate should be 150 to 250 l/m^2 absorber area per hour.  The  required type of pump is easy to determine. The delivery rate is calculated  from the absorber area x 200 lts.  The delivery head is the difference in  height between the water level and the absorber panel plus approx. 5m.  Each panel measures length 1320 mm – width 820 mm – 1.08 m^2 with 4 couplings  dia. 25mm (type A) or with integrated collecting pipe dia. 40 mm and two  couplings dia. 25 mm (type B) Recommended absorber area in % of pool surface  for open-air pools with cover or indoor swimming pools (early May through  end of September). Temp increase 4-7 C compared to unheated swimming pools.  Type A is for the first and last in a connected series and has a 40mm header  for the water to flow in. Type B is for the panels in between and connects  with 25mm hose connectors to make as  large a collector as needed. For  example, if you wanted to join 10 together in one line, you would buy 2  type A for the flow in and out and 8 type B to couple up between the two  end panels. FOB Spain The Sustainable Village, LLC     717 Poplar Ave.    Boulder, CO 80304 voice 303-998-1323 ext. 100, 888-317-1600   fax 303-449-1348 Sustainable Resources 2003

Response:

you are a dick. *plonk* — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards.solar water heater tank Read about Sustainable Technology

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is not your showroom. this is where we help each other with information. Then inform me how to finance $5000 which was the topic of the post. From what I’ve seen you’re not here for anything but to pump up your ego. you aren’t welcome to use this place to drum up business. keep pushing your $4k toys, Pushing? When have I even mentioned my company name? I’m not even posting from my own e-mail account.solar water heater tank You can’t get local business off the Internet anyway. I’m asking about financing so I CAN save my customers some money. You’re the one who keeps making juvenile off topic comments. All the while YOU are advertising green-trust.org. we’ll keep showing folks how to make better stuff for less. We? Better stuff? For less? You’re a miser with an authority problem masquerading as a conservationist. I could just imagine what the trailer you live in looks like. Garden hose on the roof. Plumbed to a kiddie pool. Warped homemade collector ready to fly off your roof and through the neighbors front window the next tornado. Eight kids running around because you insist on making your own condoms…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I’m shopping for something, and the company telephone rep or website offers to send a salesman to my home, I take it for granted that their price will include the cost of sending salesmen to many homes whose owners don’t buy. Since that would mean that I’d be paying for something other than product, it’s on to outfits with more streamlined arrangements. I don’t get my business off the internet. I just keep that site on free web space to play around with. solar water heater tankInternet is useless for local business. And it’s true, the price is reflective of the cost of those who don’t buy. It’s the same with all products that use advertising to market their products. There’s no reason you can’t use the salesman to educate you then order a system over the internet and hire a local contractor to do the work. I ordered my car off the internet and cut out the salesman. To convince someone that it’s in the their best interest to buy from them is how salespeople earn their pay.

I thought you said that you didn’t want to “cut your salesman’s throat”? It’s not nice for a customer to waste a salesman’s time, and then buy the product direct. The cost is trivial to have a proper web site with product and price details. If you don’t have that, I bet it’s because you prefer the hard sell approach. Your comment about internet being useless for local business is ridiculous. To mention just one fact – web sites are a cost-effective tool for limiting the amount of time you waste answering the same questions over and over. Wayne

Response:

home owners who have to figure out the $/btu should consider you a rip off. it’s not about how long I can finance a system. that just puts my energy (interest) dollars ( and a lot of them) into a bankers (and yours if you get a cut) pocket. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Once again … it can be done for less … much less. I have bought , installed and been using for the last two years this product. The cost delivered to me was $1670.00. took 3 hours to install and does about 95% of my hot water needs with a 2 panel collector system (about 30sf). 10 months out of the year the electricity is cut off to the hot water tank , only Dec and January , on cloudy days (Lakeland Florida) , do I need electric assist. It would take a three panel system to equal the BTU output of the 4×10 panel I use. The system they have that’s even remotely comparable to mine is the System 200133C80 which costs $2355.  And that’s not including the storage tank which is $500. Then add on $500 for a professional installation and it’s not such a bargain.  Especially when that polycarbonate glazing starts to warp. They use polycarbonate cover rather than tempered glass, so it’s light and easy to get up on the roof to sucker the do-it-yourselfers. It’s also a lot cheaper than tempered glass. You paid less and you got less. A lot less. BTW did you pull a permit? You’re real smug now but watch what happens when it’s time to sell your house. You ripped yourself off. Like I said. Penny wise pound foolish. I would never put a piece of crap like that on someone’s roof. $4,000 dollars is a rip-off , maybe that’s why no one wants to finance your offerings … The loan amount is too small. If I charge over 5k like some others do, financing would be no problem. No one knowledgeable considers 4k a rip off, including the Federal Government, Freddie Mac, FHA, or the VA

Response:

Once again … it can be done for less … much less.solar water heater tank I have bought , installed and been using for the last two years this product . The cost delivered to me was $1670.00. took 3 hours to install and does about 95% of my hot water needs with a 2 panel collector system (about 30sf). 10 months out of the year the electricity is cut off to the hot water tank , only Dec and January , on cloudy days (Lakeland Florida) , do I need electric assist. $4,000 dollars is a rip-off , maybe that’s why no one wants to finance your offerings …

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a company that markets Solar Water Heater and Solar Pool Heaters. I’ve found it difficult to get good financing because these loans are usually under $5000. Typically I’ve used credit card companies like Conseco and Wells Fargo. But the rates are high and the payments are usually 2% of the balance, and they’re looking for golden credit since it’s an unsecured loan… How about selling something that costs less? I’m writing this looking for some creative ideas on how to better finance Solar. A typical Solar Water Heater will save the average South Florida homeowner $40-50 a month in electricity. The system costs around $4000. Ideally we would like to get the monthly payment below the $40-50 a month that the system saves. This way it will pay for itself with the money it saves, right from the very first day… NREL says the water comes out of the ground at 76 F in Miami, and 1320 Btu/ft^2 of sun falls on a south wall on an average January day with a 24-hour average daily air temp of 67 F and a 75 F average daily high. Heating water for 4 15-minute 1.25 gpm 110 F showers per day only takes 4×15x1.25×8(110-76) = 21K Btu/day. A square foot of 120 F south-facing surface might gain 1320 Btu and lose 6h(120-71)2 = 588 Btu/day, so a so a water heater might have 21K/(1320-588) = 29 ft^2 of surface. The 30-year record January low in Miami is 30 F. You might try selling AC desuperheaters or unglazed Sky Mats from Zomeworks or Solahart heaters instead of these $4,000 systems… Nick

Response:

Arrogance and ignorance is an unfortunate combination. solar water heater tankThe Sustainable Village also sells Spanish Sky Mats for about $50… I agree with the arrogance part but what am I ignorant of?

Ohm’s law for heatflow (“all that mathematics”), for starters. It’s like Ohm’s law for electricity, but you replace voltages with temperatures, currents in amps with heatflow in Btu/h, and Ohms with R-values and areas. This is very basic to solar water heating. Even more basic than looking at catalogs and opening crates and hooking expensive boxes together. So far no one’s shown me anything better than what I use. I wouldn’t have my license for long nor would it pass inspection if I installed a Sky Mat and called it a solar water heater, or even a pool heater…

I don’t believe that is true. It seems to me you might easily make an efficient and inexpensive water heater in Florida with 3 or 4 thermosyphoning 32″x48″ unglazed Zomeworks Sky Mats below a 4′x4′x2′ tall insulated plywood box with an EPDM liner and a 42 gallon pressurized tank inside. With some attention to codes, you might add a $5 thermostat and a rarely-used $7 3500 W immersion heater for backup. The houses I target are 200k and up, and I’m in Florida, not Biafra.

Congratulations. Are we talking physics or fashion statements?

Response:

I can’t see spending $4000 for solar water heating. It’s not brain surgery. It’s not expensive.htm Throwing good money away foolishly isn’t my style, — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The 30-year record January low in Miami is 30 F. You might try selling AC desuperheaters or unglazed Sky Mats from Zomeworks or Solahart heaters instead of these $4,000 systems… I take it all those mathematical calculations were meant to say that the water doesn’t need to be heated that much anyway, so why not scimp. All those companies that tried that died out many years ago. I’ve sold thousands of $4000 systems for over 15 years and everyone is very happy. Why change what works? I’m not about to start selling junk. No one wants an ugly Solahart system on their roof, HOA’s are like nazi’s in S. Florida. Those might go over in low income areas, but if they can’t come up with $4000 they can’t come up with $2000. As far as the Sky Mat goes, I can’t find it on the Zomeworks website. My question was how to better finance a top of the line system. Not how to cut corners.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  get feebly combative with the potential customers.solar water heater tank Are you senile or are you just not reading my posts? I’m not looking for customers here. I couldn’t care less what you think. So far all I’ve found here is two morons. The plans on Steve’s site would make the home owner a laughing stock outside the ghetto. and you don’t have a clue about marketing or finance.  I never asked you your opinion of my prices so of course I’m going to shit on you. You both offered nothing constructive. A couple of real pricks.

Actually, I offered some good tips. The fact that you ignore them speaks volumes. You don’t believe any of your potential customers will discover your posts (and your attitude) in the archives? You must think they’re stupid.

Response:

Well this is sure a brawl..Steve, Nick..I have tremendous respect for you guys for reasons which are specific to all you offer. solar water heater tank I also spent many years in the business, and was there to watch the Solar industry crash around me when the tax credits ended in the mid eighties. It was way worse than any Internet bubble.  I could ride it out because my houses were more than just Solar, and I had way more referrals than I could handle, but all of the Solar installation companies that I knew went under. Stephen says he’s been in business 15 years. That puts his start-up in the post tax credit era. I have a lot of respect for anyone who has run a successful installation company over these years. There are different products for different people, different lifestyles, and different tastes. Arguing that everyone should buy either a Mercedes SL or a used Ford Focus is irrelevant and ridiculous. There are people in this world who wouldn’t want to spray paint the siding on the south of their house black and stretch a sheet of polyethylene over it. There are also folks who would rather do that than spend thousands on a col- -lector array that looks like a fancy set of skylights. Someone made a comment about “physics or fashion statements”   It has to be BOTH, and to ignore that is (I say redundantly) to be ignorant.  There was a bluegrass band called The Dillards. They did a song about a dog called Old Blue. They preceded it with a little talk about the different ways that people felt about dogs. They said that down on the farm they did not shave them up in little balls and prance them around, and that if there was ever a rhinestone collar around the house, it would definitely go on Momma. I’ve designed Solar houses for a lot of different kinds of people. I am very proud of one that the owner was able to build for only $2,000.  It was a wonderful challenge.  But….all of my other new house clients wanted houses that looked great and would stand, relatively trouble free, for many decades. Though most of my clients were only of average means, they did their own general contracting and their houses were far nicer than the average home. They were very cost conscious, but they would sure didn’t want to wreck their very special house by putting a less than very special collector up in the center of the roof. I’m a real stickler for cost effectiveness, and if a system won’t buy itself back in 10 years (preferably 5) I’m not for it. I found alternatives to component DHW systems because of cost, but I seldom blamed the cost on the installing contractor. If you’re in it for the money, you would not be installing Solar. There are faster and easier way to turn a buck. I don’t find $4000 to be at all over priced for a high quality component Solar DHW system installed by a legitimate contractor who treats his customers like they are special and stands behind his product and his service. The systems cost that much twenty years ago. I don’t know Stephen, and I don’t know his product, and I don’t even know the name of his company or where it is located, but if he has managed to stay in the Solar installation business over the last 15 years, then he know a lot more about it then we do, and he has my utmost respect. You three guys have way more in common than the petty crap that you’re bickering about. You are all three doing very positive things to promote the usage of Solar. You’re just promoting it to a different demographic. Laren Corie Passive Solar Building Design Since 1975

Response:

The 30-year record January low in Miami is 30 F. You might try selling AC desuperheaters or unglazed Sky Mats from Zomeworks or Solahart heaters instead of these $4,000 systems… I take it all those mathematical calculations were meant to say that the water doesn’t need to be heated that much anyway, so why not scimp…

No, but here’s a quote from “Solar Air Heater Plans” by Ray Wolf, ISBN 0-87857-369-3, published by Rodale Press, 33 East Minor St., Emmaus, PA 18049 in 1981…   When talking about the efficiency of a solar collector, you have to   consider not only how much energy you collect, but also how much it   costs to collect it.   Let’s look at two parked cars, each collecting solar energy in a   parking lot on a sunny summer day. Car A is a used VW costing $2,500,   while car B is a “previously owned” deluxe Rolls Royce costing $42,000.   Let’s say our VW collects the solar equivalent of 1 gallon of gasoline,   while the Rolls collects the equivalent of 1 1/2 gallons of gasoline   during the day. Which is the better deal? The cost per gallon of the   VW gasoline is a fraction of that of the Rolls; thus, although the   cheaper collector doesn’t collect as much energy, the cost per gallon   is far below the more efficient Rolls Royce collector.   We feel like we’ve designed a collector that works like a Rolls Royce   at a VW price. Our collector is the most cost-effective solar collector   we know of. If you build your unit with entirely new materials it should   cost you no more than $250, installed. The cheapest comparable-size   commercial unit sells for slightly over $400…   When you talk to solar salesmen, they will talk one of two numbers,   depending on which favors their collector: cost per square foot of   collector surface or Btu’s delivered per square foot of collector   surface per year. The first is an indicator of the cost of the unit,   the second, an indicator of the overall effectiveness of the unit.   A combined figure gives you the cost-effectiveness of the unit–sort of   a solar “MPG” rating. Very few salesmen want to talk these numbers. All those companies that tried that died out many years ago. I’ve sold thousands of $4000 systems for over 15 years and everyone is very happy.

Ignorance can be bliss. Why change what works?

Cost-effectiveness. I’m not about to start selling junk. No one wants an ugly Solahart system on their roof, HOA’s are like nazi’s in S. Florida. Those might go over in low income areas, but if they can’t come up with $4000 they can’t come up with $2000…

And attitudes can be crippling. As far as the Sky Mat goes, I can’t find it on the Zomeworks website.

You might look at

Response:

You could also target new home buyers. I’ve heard that some mortgage companies are offering better term and/or larger loans if a house is energy efficient. The reasoning goes that if your utility bills are lower,solar water heater tank you have more left over for a mortgage payment. How about teaming  up with real estate agents as well? Funny you should mention that because I am a real estate agent as well as a solar contractor. My wife will be a mortgage broker soon as well. But will she be able to sell off measly $4000 secured loans?

She would not be selling a $4000 loan. For an existing home owner, get them to refinance, taking out $4000 in equity to pay for the upgrade. Lets say the owner of a 200k house has 60k in equity and the loan is at 6%. With 20% down for their existing loan, their monthly payment on a 160k loan is $959. They have payed down 20k of the loan, so the new one is for 160k – 20k + 4k = 144k. Lets say they can refinance that 144k at 5.5%. Their payment is now  $818, plus they will reduce their hot water bill. This does not include the cost of refinancing, but You could probably still come out ahead. If the rates go up, this all falls apart. A good reason to get clients to do it now. What was your thoughts on teaming up with real estate brokers? I have a book I got from the Edison Institute called Using the Energy Factor to Sell Homes. But realtors are a closed minded sort, as are builders. Maybe I don’t have the right approach?

I’m not sure. I am not in either the solar business nor a realtor, but I was thinking that as the solar contractor you could sell it to the broker as a way to make their listings more attractive. Offer a solar water heater as on option the same way agents offer home warranties to the buyers. To the broker its a marketing tool. To the buyer, its a way to reduce the total cost of ownership. You might be able to do the same with sellers, but I doubt that you could raise the price enough to cover the cost. That is, I don’t think the seller could install the system just before putting the house on the market and be able to cover his costs. In a slow market though, it might be the difference between selling or not. I wish I could point to some market research that would indicate what the demand for efficient houses are. We have been looking for a house for some time. Given a choice, I would gladly buy a more efficient one, even at a up-front premium. When I go to sell it someday, it will be more efficient I know that there are loans to be had that any energy efficient improvements can’t be counted towards the cost. http://www.eere.energy.gov/erec/factsheets/feehome.html

Did you mean “efficient improvements CAN be counted towards the cost.”? The link seems to say you can include the cost of improvments in the mortgage, as long as it lowers the monthly costs. Regards,         Andy

Response:

My parents are retired. I build computer networks.solar water heater tank What’s your problem? — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – indeed, a mouth of reason and truth. I don’t sell the stuff, so I’m a bit more unbiased and believable. A reseller is going to push what he can make a buck on, not what’s necessarily good for the customer. You seem very biased against salespeople and marketing. If there wasn’t something in it for you you wouldn’t be expending your energy. Granted it’s not money. You want to be right. You want to be a hero. A protector of truth justice and the American way. Look, it’s a bird, it’s a plane! It’s Superslacker! BTW, If you don’t sell stuff or work for someone who sells stuff how do you pay your bills? Do your parents sell stuff?

Response:

indeed, a mouth of reason and truth. I don’t sell the stuff, so I’m a bit more unbiased and believable. A reseller is going to push what he can make a buck on, not what’s necessarily good for the customer.solar water heater tank — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology

Response:

glazing is great in NJ, but what does he need glazing for in Florida? We don’t use glazing in Haiti. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Arrogance and ignorance is an unfortunate combination. The Sustainable Village also sells Spanish Sky Mats for about $50… I agree with the arrogance part but what am I ignorant of? Ohm’s law for heatflow (“all that mathematics”), for starters. It’s like Ohm’s law for electricity, but you replace voltages with temperatures, currents in amps with heatflow in Btu/h, and Ohms with R-values and areas. This is very basic to solar water heating. Even more basic than looking at catalogs and opening crates and hooking expensive boxes together. So far no one’s shown me anything better than what I use. I wouldn’t have my license for long nor would it pass inspection if I installed a Sky Mat and called it a solar water heater, or even a pool heater… I don’t believe that is true. It seems to me you might easily make an efficient and inexpensive water heater in Florida with 3 or 4 thermosyphoning 32″x48″ unglazed Zomeworks Sky Mats below a 4′x4′x2′ tall insulated plywood box with an EPDM liner and a 42 gallon pressurized tank inside. With some attention to codes, you might add a $5 thermostat and a rarely-used $7 3500 W immersion heater for backup. The houses I target are 200k and up, and I’m in Florida, not Biafra. Congratulations. Are we talking physics or fashion statements?

Response:

…I think it’s time to raise prices. I’ve seen other companies charging $6000.solar water heater tank Then the banks will take it on a 20 year loan.

Arrogance and ignorance is an unfortunate combination. The Sustainable Village also sells Spanish Sky Mats for about $50…     Lowest cost solar thermal panels  The least expensive way to heat enough water for regular showers. Unglazed  so only practical in areas that don’t freeze or for summer only use. Also  great for swimming pool heating. The absorber area should be chosen 50%  larger if there is no cover. The regionally different number of sunshine  hours can be allowed for by adding or deducting up to 20% absorber area.  The flow rate should be 150 to 250 l/m^2 absorber area per hour.  The  required type of pump is easy to determine. The delivery rate is calculated  from the absorber area x 200 lts.  The delivery head is the difference in  height between the water level and the absorber panel plus approx. 5m.  Each panel measures length 1320 mm – width 820 mm – 1.08 m^2 with 4 couplings  dia. 25mm (type A) or with integrated collecting pipe dia. 40 mm and two  couplings dia. 25 mm (type B) Recommended absorber area in % of pool surface  for open-air pools with cover or indoor swimming pools (early May through  end of September). Temp increase 4-7 C compared to unheated swimming pools.  Type A is for the first and last in a connected series and has a 40mm header  for the water to flow in. Type B is for the panels in between and connects  with 25mm hose connectors to make as  large a collector as needed. For  example, if you wanted to join 10 together in one line, you would buy 2  type A for the flow in and out and 8 type B to couple up between the two  end panels. FOB Spain The Sustainable Village, LLC     717 Poplar Ave.    Boulder, CO 80304 voice 303-998-1323 ext. 100, 888-317-1600   fax 303-449-1348 Sustainable Resources 2003 <www.carebridge.info “Resources for the Developing World”

Response:

The appointment setter gets $200. The salesperson gets $650.

Yikes! What do these people do that you pay them that much? solar water heater tankIf a customer already knows what he wants, and adjusts his schedule to suit yours, does he still get to pay the $850? Wayne

Response:

Stephen,         Let me get this straight, your trying to offer the system on credit to your clients? This sounds a bit risky. For clients that have a mortgage or a line of credit, they could use that. 4000 at 6% for 30 years comes out the $23.98, at 15 years, its $33.75. I think you would be much better off letting the mortgage companies bare the risk, than your own company if you can help it. They will have a lot more leverage than you if the client defaults. It would also benefit your clients, as the mortgage interest is deductible on their taxes. Maybe you could hook up with a mortgage broker and help the client to refinance if they have not already. You could also target new home buyers. I’ve heard that some mortgage companies are offering better term and/or larger loans if a house is energy efficient. The reasoning goes that if your utility bills are lower, you have more left over for a mortgage payment. How about teaming   up with real estate agents as well? Hope this helps. Regards,         Andy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a company that markets Solar Water Heater and Solar Pool Heaters. I’ve found it difficult to get good financing because these loans are usually under $5000. Typically I’ve used credit card companies like Conseco and Wells Fargo. But the rates are high and the payments are usually 2% of the balance, and they’re looking for golden credit since it’s an unsecured loan. I’m writing this looking for some creative ideas on how to better finance Solar. A typical Solar Water Heater will save the average South Florida homeowner $40-50 a month in electricity. The system costs around $4000. Ideally we would like to get the monthly payment below the $40-50 a month that the system saves. This way it will pay for itself with the money it saves, right from the very first day. Any alternatives to credit card companies would be greatly appreciated. Thank you,

Response:

It’s the salesperson’s job to discuss price and details.solar water heater tank You don’t know much about sales I gather.

LOL  I sure as hell know enough not to put together a cheesey web site, advertise it on Usenet, and then get feebly combative with the potential customers. And I know that if you had half a brain, once cornered, you’d explain *why* your prices and details can only be presented in person by a salesman. (As if none of us have figured it out.) BTW, quit phoning me at dinnertime.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yikes! solar water heater tankWhat do these people do that you pay them that much? If a customer already knows what he wants, and adjusts his schedule to suit yours, does he still get to pay the $850? If they call me from the phone book and I don’t need to use a salesman or appointment setter, the savings are passed on to the customer. In the world of in-home sales, commission needs to be 15-20% if you want to keep good salespeople. I could pay less or by the hour but then I would have to keep hiring new people. If there was a better way I think I would have found it after 15 years in business.  I’ve tried it all different ways. But I’m always open to new ideas. I would love to get a system to the consumer for less, without cutting my or the salesman’s throat.

I just checked your site. I don’t see a breakdown of the difference in cost between in-home sales and direct sales. In fact, I don’t see any prices at all. I did get a friggen’ animated pop-up ad though. I would think that after fifteen years in business, you’d have figured out how to make your site appear reputable. Instead, you seem to prefer scare tactics over solid product info and competitive pricing.   Boo as well to the indirect approach… inviting people to apply for a free survey. I’m thinkin’ that the “appointment setter” is the one who converts a “free” survey into an in-home sales visit, and that you’re sending salesmen out to pitch to weak prospects. Which probably results in a low success-rate, necessitating high sales-commissions. When I’m shopping for something, and the company telephone rep or website offers to send a salesman to my home, I take it for granted that their price will include the cost of sending salesmen to many homes whose owners don’t buy. Since that would mean that I’d be paying for something other than product, it’s on to outfits with more streamlined arrangements.

Response:

this is not your showroom.solar water heater tank this is where we help each other with information. you aren’t welcome to use this place to drum up business. keep pushing your $4k toys, solar water heater tankwe’ll keep showing folks how to make better stuff for less. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m bothering to reply with facts, not a sales pitch. We see where your interests lie……. I’m not the red cross. I guess you don’t make a profit on what you sell. You’re just another hypocrite.

Response:

the skymat looks like a emitter, not a collector. it’s a stretch to call a solahart ugly — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The 30-year record January low in Miami is 30 F. You might try selling AC desuperheaters or unglazed Sky Mats from Zomeworks or Solahart heaters instead of these $4,000 systems… I take it all those mathematical calculations were meant to say that the water doesn’t need to be heated that much anyway, so why not scimp… No, but here’s a quote from “Solar Air Heater Plans” by Ray Wolf, ISBN 0-87857-369-3, published by Rodale Press, 33 East Minor St., Emmaus, PA 18049 in 1981…   When talking about the efficiency of a solar collector, you have to   consider not only how much energy you collect, but also how much it   costs to collect it.   Let’s look at two parked cars, each collecting solar energy in a   parking lot on a sunny summer day. Car A is a used VW costing $2,500,   while car B is a “previously owned” deluxe Rolls Royce costing $42,000.   Let’s say our VW collects the solar equivalent of 1 gallon of gasoline,   while the Rolls collects the equivalent of 1 1/2 gallons of gasoline   during the day. Which is the better deal? The cost per gallon of the   VW gasoline is a fraction of that of the Rolls; thus, although the   cheaper collector doesn’t collect as much energy, the cost per gallon   is far below the more efficient Rolls Royce collector.   We feel like we’ve designed a collector that works like a Rolls Royce   at a VW price. solar water heater tankOur collector is the most cost-effective solar collector   we know of. If you build your unit with entirely new materials it should   cost you no more than $250, installed. The cheapest comparable-size   commercial unit sells for slightly over $400…   When you talk to solar salesmen, they will talk one of two numbers,   depending on which favors their collector: cost per square foot of   collector surface or Btu’s delivered per square foot of collector   surface per year. The first is an indicator of the cost of the unit,   the second, an indicator of the overall effectiveness of the unit.   A combined figure gives you the cost-effectiveness of the unit–sort of   a solar “MPG” rating. Very few salesmen want to talk these numbers. All those companies that tried that died out many years ago. I’ve sold thousands of $4000 systems for over 15 years and everyone is very happy. Ignorance can be bliss. Why change what works? Cost-effectiveness. I’m not about to start selling junk. No one wants an ugly Solahart system on their roof, HOA’s are like nazi’s in S. Florida. Those might go over in low income areas, but if they can’t come up with $4000 they can’t come up with $2000… And attitudes can be crippling. As far as the Sky Mat goes, I can’t find it on the Zomeworks website. You might look at

Response:

I have a company that markets Solar Water Heater and Solar Pool Heaters. solar water heater tank I’ve found it difficult to get good financing because these loans are usually under $5000. Typically I’ve used credit card companies like Conseco and Wells Fargo. But the rates are high and the payments are usually 2% of the balance, and they’re looking for golden credit since it’s an unsecured loan…

How about selling something that costs less? I’m writing this looking for some creative ideas on how to better finance Solar. A typical Solar Water Heater will save the average South Florida homeowner $40-50 a month in electricity. The system costs around $4000. Ideally we would like to get the monthly payment below the $40-50 a month that the system saves. This way it will pay for itself with the money it saves, right from the very first day…

NREL says the water comes out of the ground at 76 F in Miami, and 1320 Btu/ft^2 of sun falls on a south wall on an average January day with a 24-hour average daily air temp of 67 F and a 75 F average daily high. Heating water for 4 15-minute 1.25 gpm 110 F showers per day only takes 4×15x1.25×8(110-76) = 21K Btu/day. A square foot of 120 F south-facing surface might gain 1320 Btu and lose 6h(120-71)2 = 588 Btu/day, so a so a water heater might have 21K/(1320-588) = 29 ft^2 of surface. The 30-year record January low in Miami is 30 F. You might try selling AC desuperheaters or unglazed Sky Mats from Zomeworks or Solahart heaters instead of these $4,000 systems…

Response:

I don’t find $4000 to be at all over priced for a high quality component Solar DHW system installed by a legitimate contractor who treats his customers like they are special and stands behind his product and his service.

I agree that $4k isn’t necessarily out of line for a high quality system from a reliable vendor. But I doubt that what’s we’re talking about here. His website is big on scare tactics, yet prices and specs are only to be revealed one-on-one. He isn’t willing to explain *why* these details aren’t in print, and he’s unreasonably combative when asked to discuss it. I’d be very surprised if a customer with a complaint would be treated any better. My guess is that his products are a poor value, and that his primary means of generating leads is telephone solicitation. It was enlightening to learn that his “appointment setters” are paid $200. Gawd, it’s no wonder these salespeople are still yakking even as I’m hanging up on them.

Response:

glazing is great in NJ, solar water heater tankbut what does he need glazing for in Florida?

He probably doesn’t. …It seems to me you might easily make an efficient and inexpensive water heater in Florida with 3 or 4 thermosyphoning 32″x48″ unglazed Zomeworks Sky Mats…

Response:

I must be one of those stupid morons, since I did heat a pool with a few hundred feet of green garden hose. the point is, you don’t need to spend $6000 or even $4000 to heat water. a quality long life system can be had for much less. Cost effectiveness and return on investment is more important than “how much can be financed” unless you are in the financing business. As I have said, I have built these units, I know what it takes to heat water. I’m not out to rip anyone off. I’m bothering to reply with facts, not a sales pitch. We see where your interests lie……. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – so you are part of the establishment that believes in soaking the customer? $4k is an insane amount to charge for a water heater. how can you sleep at night? I’ve been building and using these gadgets for years. $1000 makes a very neat and efficient long lasting unit. What nonsense. Just the tank costs $500. A professional install is $500. Even if you were going to make one, the tempered glass for the collector costs $200. You’re obviously not in business, and are ignorant of what it costs to stay in business. This isn’t a charity, it’s a business that has to stand behind the product for 10 years. My cost just for equipment and install is $2500 not including all the costs to run a business, insurance, licensing, permits, and advertising. The appointment setter gets $200. The salesperson gets $650. The company gets $650. And with solar you don’t get a chance to keep selling them upgrades. There’s no planned obsolescence or profit off maintenance. Come to think of it, I think it’s time to raise prices. I’ve seen other companies charging $6000. Then the banks will take it on a 20 year loan. And again the topic was about financing. Not some silly claims about building a $1000 unit. Reminds me of some moron that had hundreds of feet of garden hose spray painted black on his roof to heat his pool. Don’t bother me with stupidity. If you can’t answer the question or provide something constructive don’t reply.

Response:

so you are part of the establishment that believes in soaking the customer?solar water heater tank $4k is an insane amount to charge for a water heater. how can you sleep at night? I’ve been building and using these gadgets for years. $1000 makes a very neat and efficient long lasting unit. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t see spending $4000 for solar water heating. It’s not brain surgery. It’s not expensive.  Throwing good money away foolishly isn’t my style, We’re talking about people’s largest investment, their home. Not a tree fort. It involves plumbing, roof work and electrical work. As a Real Estate Agent and a Contractor I know first hand the problems unlicensed work causes when it’s time to sell the house. I have to pay installers $500 just to install these units. Maybe where you live you can get away with it but where I am people take pride in their homes, not to mention many are under close scrutiny by home owners associations, nosey neighbors, and the county inspectors. Besides, the ones who think they’re so smart and say they’re going to do it themselves, NEVER get around to doing it. It’s just a pipe dream. Hell, if they had any ambition to begin with, the $4000 would be chump change to them anyway. They wouldn’t have the time to climb up on their roof and play Mr. Fixit. This is a perfect example of being penny wise and pound foolish. If it’s worth doing, it’s worth doing right.

Question:

I need to replace ahome made solar panel really old solar water heater tank wisconsin electric solar water heater i

Question:

If you haven’t

solar water heater tank tank parts

guessed solar water heater storage tank by the subject line I’m looking for plans for some simple solar thermal items. Two things in specific I have read about and would like to find some info and plans for. The first is what I call a ’solar window box’. The way I understand it in its simplest form it is a glass covered box which is placed in the bottom of a window. It takes the cooler air from low in the room then uses the sun to heat it and pushes it back into the room, all via thermal siphon. The other is more complicated. I have an old water heater tank that has a hole in it but can be welded enough to stop the leak. I want to take the tank and make a solar water heater. I’m looking for a very simple plan. A lot of people talk about the efficiency of their design but its been my experience that the more efficient the more complicated. The idea for the heater is just to make something to show it will work. After that I can justify to SWMBO adding a better more permanent system. The thoughts I have had so far are: 1) Just painting the tank black and use it as a 50 gal batch heater. Should warm up enough during a summer day to get a shower out of. I’ve been told that it might even get TOO warm so I should consider having some how to mix cold water with it at the shower head. 2) Paint the tank black and plumb it into my hot water line with an easily accessible by pass set up. 3) Do the same as #2 but add a collection system of black plastic pipe under clear plastic. 4) #3 with the tank in a plastic covered box to reduce heat loss. Remember this is going to be solar water heater storage tank nothing but an experiment/demonstrate so nothing fancy, complicated or expensive (e.g. glass boxes mounted on the roof) will fly. Any palce to get the building plans for either and any ideas or thoughts on either project will be a great help.

Response:

… The first is what solar water heater storage tank

solar water heater tank tank parts

I call a ’solar window box’. The way I understand it in its simplest form it is a glass covered box which is placed in the bottom of a window. It takes the cooler air from low in the room then uses the sun to heat it and pushes it back into the room, all via thermal siphon.

Is this what you’re talking about? http://www.jrwhipple.com/sr/solheater.html The other is more complicated. I have an old water heater tank that has a hole in it but can be welded enough to stop the leak. I want to take the tank and make a solar water heater. I’m looking for a very simple plan.

I think you’re looking for a batch water heater. Essentially paint the tank black (remove any insulation around it’s outside first) and place it in the sun. Pipe it in between the cold water and the inlet to your normal water heater. It’ll work better if it’s in a glass (or plexy) faced box that is insulated on the sides that don’t face the sun and that maybe has a couple of reflectors. Most folks lay the tanks down on their sides when they do this and slope the glass at an angle that is about equal to their latitude so it faces the sun more square. If you really want to get fancy you could add an insulated door or shutters that open when the sun is shining and close when it’s dark. These can be operated by a fairly simple device using counterweights and half filled glass bottles or the like. solar water heater storage tank

Response:

solar water heater storage tank You could just paint it black -

solar water heater tank tank parts

fill it with water, and put a thermometer inside it – see what happens – don’t even have to plumb it into the house systems at first. Give it a few days and chart the water temps, day and night compared to air temps.  Leave some air space at the top for expansion. Stage 2 – lay it down against a south facing wall – maybe a piece of styrofoam to separate it from the ground, and lean a storm window over it. Or a simple frame solar water heater storage tank of 1×2 with clear plastic stretched over it. 3: Ask around if anyone has a ‘dead’ freezer big enough to put the tank in. The freezer is well insulated and has a door with a seal. Put the freezer on it’s back, with the lid lying on the ground. Close when the sun goes down. 4: cover the open side with plastic or storm window 5: put reflective mylar inside the box and on the inside of the lid so that when the lid is open it reflects more sunlight into the box. If you do a few days at each stage, recording temps morning and evening you will get an idea of how much you gain each day, how much you lose each night, and how much each stage improves the results.

solar water heater tank tank parts

If you post the results here it will be very interesting for many of the rest of us.

solar water heater tank tank parts

Question:

Can anyone refer me to a site where there are plans etc for hot water solar tank heater building your own solar water heater?

Response:

What kind of heater hot water solar tank heater do you want? What special requirements do you have? You could try a web search. There are any number of websites out there, though most of them will want to sell you the plans instead of having the plans posted. There are also any number of companies that will sell you parts, panels or entire systems. Plans for a batch water heater (tank in a glass faced box). http://www.solaror.org/Publications/Batch_Plans.htm A small do-it-yourself thermosyphon system. http://www.ata.org.au/63shw.htm Home made panels and heat exchanger system. http://www.hhs.net/jbrown/solwater.htm Bolt together collectors using corrugated steel. http://idh.vita.org/pubs/docs/swh.html Thomason style collector write-up. http://www.geocities.com/davidmdelaney/shurcliff-trickle.html Solar shower. http://www.kidsfromkanata.org/~KFK/files/solarshwr.html

Question:

It takes a while for wood to warp.

Understood. In this case solar powered water tank heaters the wood is buckling under the weight. Who is liable to make that repair? I paid a professional to properly size and install the water heater so that it would be done without these sorts of problems. Dimitri

Response:

I had a company come out solar powered water tank heaters and install a new water heater into an existing enclosure. The old water heater was 30 gallons. I asked if it would be possible to install a 40 gallon heater instead. They said that the installer would take a look to see if it was possible, and that he carried both sizes on his truck.

Some more details, please… Just where is this heater installed, and exactly what is buckling? The more detail you can provide, the better able folks will be to answer your question.

Response:

I can’t see your problem from here, but from solar powered water tank heaters your description, it does not sound like the plumbers fault.

Response:

Some more details, please… Just where is this heater installed, and exactly what is buckling? The more detail you can provide, the better able folks will be to answer your question.

It is installed in the kitchen solar powered water tank heaters in an enclosure made especially for it. It is not resting on the floor, but on a platform. The left side of the enclosure is buckling and the water heater is no longer level with the floor (tilts slightly to one side). The buckling is occuring at the bottom near the floor and also at the place where the platform joins the side of the enclosure.

Response:

The question is if the plumber is responsible solar powered water tank heaters for: a) Proper sizing b) Identifying a minor problem before it becomes/became a major one. What    if the whole thing had collapsed? I am not saying that these are necessarily the plumber’s responsibilities, but I am not saying that they are not either. That is why I am asking. Dimitri

Response:

lets see…it was your request for the 40 gallon, instead of replacing with a “like” 30 gallon…now its buckling from the weight and the fact you admit the “old water leaked was leaking a bit” and had an effect on the cabinet…dang, im glad im choosy about my clients…

I had a company come out and install a new water heater into an existing enclosure. The old water heater was 30 gallons. I asked if it would be possible to install a 40 gallon heater instead. They said that the installer would take a look to see if it was possible, and that he carried both sizes on his truck. When the installer came out, he said that a 40 gallon wouldn’t be a problem. He began installing the new water heater. I was in and out of the area, so I kept an eye on what he was doing but I wasn’t watching intently. When I went back into the room after the tank began to fill, I noticed the finish on my cabinet was warping. I couldn’t remember if it had been like that previously that day (it had NOT been like that in the recent past). I asked the installer about it and he said that it was probably caused by moisture (the old water heater was leaking a bit). That sounded reasonable. Although I was unhappy with having to get it refinished, shit happens. Well, he completed the installation and everything was working fine. I paid him and he left. When I came home from work that night, I found that the cabinet was worse. It was obvious that it was not moisture, but that the cabinet had started buckling. I shut off the solar powered water tank heaters water and drained the water heater. I called the company and they said that they can move the water heater outside (there is an enclosure for a defunct solar water heater). This wouldn’t be free. Or, they said that they can uninstall the water heater and reinstall it for free after I have the cabinet reinforced by a carpenter (I pay for the carpenter). To get to the point (finally), regardless of the outcome of the water heater installation itself are they liable for the damages to my cabinetry? A finish carpenter has given me a quote of $500-600 to repair the damage. I feel like I shouldn’t have to pay that fee, or at least not all of it. What would be reasonable and customary in this sort of situation? I wish to be fair to all parties involved and I am not looking for a free ride. However, neither do I wish to easily part with my hard-earned money if I shouldn’t have to. Any advice is appreciated.

Response:

lets see…it was your request for the 40 gallon, instead of replacing with a “like” 30 gallon…now its buckling from the weight and the fact you admit the “old water leaked was leaking a bit” and had an effect on the cabinet…dang, im glad im choosy about my clients…

Well, the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect on the cabinet. That was just the explanation the installer gave. It seemed reasonable at the time, but later on proved to be incorrect. As far as my request, I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one. I think it’s funny that you say you are choosy about your clients. You wouldn’t know what we are like until after the fact, no? I’d like to say the same about the contractors that I hire, but the fact is that (even with a recommendation) one doesn’t know until after the fact. I am perfectly willing to be reasonable. I am not demanding anything from the plumber just yet. I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again). Don’t be so defensive. Dimitri

Response:

Well, the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect on the cabinet.

Bullsh**. It’s obvious to me that the cabinet is delaminating and is collapsing because of water damage. The added weight of the 40 gallon tank only hastened the collapse, it did not cause it. The root cause is that the water-caused swelling of the layers of plywood that make up the structure of the cabinet has broken the glue bond between the layers (delamination), thus destroying the strength of the cabinet. This is a common type of water damage, and is why marine-grade plywood or OSB is generally required in modern installations of this type. reasonable at the time, but later on proved to be incorrect. As far as my request, I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one.

Note that a plumber is not a carpenter, and is not responsible for carpentry. He looked at the plumbing and cabinet size to see whether it could accomodate the 40 gallon tank, and it could. He does not have the expertise to evaluate carpentry-related matters. I am perfectly willing to be reasonable. I am not demanding anything from the plumber just yet. I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again). Don’t be so defensive.

It seems to me that you need to get a carpenter in there to rebuild this cabinet. It has been severely water damaged, and is going to collapse, whether it has a 40 gallon tank or 30 gallon tank sitting upon it. Whether this requires the plumber to come out and temporarily disconnect the tank or not depends upon the construction of the cabinet and of the hookups between tank and house.

Response:

Of course, I can’t be sure what happened. Maybe the guy solar powered water tank heaters damaged it in some way. Like you say, 100 lbs isn’t really a lot. In fact, I’ve since had a carpenter look at it and he thinks it should’ve been fine based on the construction. Of course then that begs the question of whether the plumber should’ve suspected a problem to begin with then.

You asked for a larger unit, your old unit was leaking…the old unit weakened the supports in the old cabnet…. Pretty cut and dried here… On the other hand, the problem was pointed out to him and he deemed it cosmetic. Might the problem be that the water heater wasn’t leveled? I don’t really know. All I know is that it was fine before and not so fine afterwards.

Water heaters could be installed sideways and they wont leak…. I am looking at it from the standpoint of what might’ve happened if this small problem had been a catastrophe. I feel like a relied on a professional’s advice that it was cosmetic damage when it was not. I realize he’s not a structural engineer, though, and that is why I am curious as to what exactly the potential liabilities are in situations such as these.

Potential liability….simple…you asked for something solar powered water tank heaters, you got it….a plumber isnt a cabinet maker…and vice versa. Say, for example, that an air conditioning guy installs a unit in my attic and the joists give way under the weight. Do I really need to have an engineer on hand to certify that the joists will support the weight in such a case? What if I do? Is that engineer then liable if the joists give?

Actually..in some cases, yes..you DO need to have it checked, and in some cases, if your roof joists wont handle an extra 75 to 125 pounds spread out over the area that the unit is hung from….you have bigger issues…really.. Additionally, the $500ish quote you received sounds fairly outrageous, but I’m not sure what the work entailed. Everything is outrageous. I’m sure if I asked a contractor to change a light bulb he’d charge me $200.

Probably…is it an electrician you are asking? Those trucks run for free you know.. Bottom line, this is part of the joys of home/condo ownership.  Not everything always works out perfectly, and you sometimes have to adapt as life goes on.

Amen…finer words never spoken on this subject.

Response:

The difference in weight between a 30 and 40 gallon tank will be 80 pounds for the water (“a pint’s a pound the world around”)

Except in the UK, where a pint weighs 1.25 lbs.

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Ekal says NO! to fake shakes: Now, the structural implications depend upon the cabinet and its supports. Plywood in particular is an extremely strong structural material. They’ve built fighter planes out of the stuff (don’t laugh, the famous WWII-era Mosquito solar powered water tank heaters was made of plywood). WWII Mosquito = PT BOAT, not a plane.

http://www.1000pictures.com/aircraft/wwii/Mosquito-2.jpg Dan — My own personal theory is that God is like I am when I’m playing Civ II…sure, it really helps my score when I have peaceful civilizations, but it’s really REALLY fun to wage war on other civlizations. Especially if they are just beginning to develop and I have the super advanced technology.                   –

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Ok..its obvious here that you are like the guy with the windows that hes being asked to pay for. You want solar powered water tank heaters someone here to say..yea..go after that scumbag and make him pay for the cabinet……. But…as EVERYONE in here knows, water leaking in a wood enclosure will not show damage RIGHT away, and now, you are trying to get something for nothing, or looking for a way to get it. Your OWN comments show either total complete ignorance, or, a selfish greedy bastard…sorry…but thats it.. Look at the comment…Well..the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect (effect) on the cabinet. Ok..how do you know? The installer of the new unit didnt know, or else he would have not installed it. One thing, thats a constant, water and wood dont mix, and over time, key word time, it will warp. Remove the water, and it will shrink and buckle…add weight, (you did) and it will warp and buckle. IF  and thats IF that cabinet was in top shape, brand new, and the new tank leaked from the second he left till now…what..a couple of days…it would still look like a new wet cabinet… I think it’s funny that you say you are choosy about your clients. You wouldn’t know what we are like until after the fact, no?

No..most contractors can tell in a matter of seconds if we really want to do business with you. I told a real estate agents secretary to go fly a kite today, and in the process, probably lost $5500 in business….so what? Feels better knowing your customers are not out to screw you…and no..we dont screw our customers either.. I’d like solar powered water tank heaters to say the same about the contractors that I hire, but the fact is that (even with a recommendation) one doesn’t know until after the fact.

Actually…most people can read another…IF you are paying attention…but..you are going to ignore all this anyway..so whats the point… I am perfectly willing to be reasonable. I am not demanding anything from the plumber just yet.

Hints to you looking to think about it…. I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again). Don’t be so defensive.

We are not…we are being matter of fact. A plumber is NOT a wood expert. Have you ever gone to replace the brakes on your car…taken the wheel off, and about the time you go to take the rotor off, you find out the bearings a bit loose…then, you go to pack it, and find out you are out another 50 bux for two bearings, races, and a seal? Look at this the same way…you went to fix one problem, and found another caused for whatever reason, its there, and its time to fix it.

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… I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one.

You ASKED and they complied.  Woulda been better for your view of things if they had FORCED you kicking solar powered water tank heaters and screaming at gun point to take a bigger heater, but they didn’t.  Interesting  how hindsight changes perception; did you really say “accomodated” or did you just say “fit”???   It does FIT.  How was the installer to know your CUSTOM enclosure was of inadequate strength to hold up the heater?  The old leak very well COULD be a factor, it weakened the bottom of your custom cabinet so that the incremental added weight of the new heater was too much for it.  There should be a substantial safety margin here, and if the added weight of the extra 10 gallons did it in, IMHO it was inadequate to begin with.  (And it really makes no difference that the installer was mistaken the first time as to how bad the problem was; if he was right from the beginning, would it make a difference at this point?) Look, you don’t want to have to shell out (very understandable) but really, you are grasping at straws here.  Water heaters are usually on the floor, the cabinet is your responsibility.  The installer didn’t do anything wrong.  If you don’t want to accept this, go to court, convince them that the installer should have warned you about how strong your own cabinet was.

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Seems that, in this situation, the customer and the plumber might have anticipated that the cabinet was damaged by the previous leak.  Unusual sounding installation, to be on the platform solar powered water tank heaters rather than floor.  Ennyhoo, only liability I can see (not a plumber) is possibly if the install does not comply with mfg. recommendations and code.  I’m not a lawyer, either.  Probably easier in the long run to get it done right.  If not in compliance with mfg. install recommendations, try writing a letter.  Still,  with an old leak inside the cabinet I’m wondering what you expected.

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It sounds as if the cabinet which solar powered water tank heaters holds your water heater is failing for some reason. Your desire to lay the blame on the plumber while understandable is not substantiated by the facts as you present them. I’m not sure why you feel the need to have others agree with you about the plumber.    This is a small matter but if you must know who to blame hire an engineer to come to your home and investigate. The opinions of internet strangers who can’t see your problem will have no bearing on the blame, if there is any.

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Would the structural strength of the stand be obvious to a non-carpenter?  How is it built and from what?  Are the supports even visible? BTW, leaking water could very well have damaged the structural integrity of the stand if it is made of some kind of formed wood products. It is made of some sort of hardwood with a veneer.

This is extremely unlikely, unless it is more than 40 years old. Virtually everything with a veneer made in recent times is either plywood or some sort of pressboard (formed wood product). Most people willing to pay for solid wood (as vs. a manufactured wood product) are willing to pay the small premium for FINISHABLE solid wood (i.e., no veneer required). All manufactured wood products are subject to internal damage caused by waterlogging. Water causes the wood fibres to swell, which breaks the glue bonds that hold the manufactured product together and give it strength. Even when the water is no longer present, the glue bonds are still broken. In the worst case (pressboard or sawdust-board, as I call it), the whole thing crumbles to sawdust at the merest touch of the tip of a screwdriver. I’ve seen the same thing happen to OSB, though it usually holds together and merely becomes spongy and flexible rather than crumbling into sawdust. In the best case (a good quality plywood), only a layer or two will delaminate. Usually it’s a layer on the top of the sheet, but this very much depends upon the pattern of the water flows, and whether the top of the sheet was protected by a water-resistent veneer or coating. I’ve seen water run along the bottom of a sheet of plywood (due to a leaking roof vent) where it destroyed that sheet of plywood from the bottom. Now, the structural implications depend upon the cabinet and its supports. Plywood in particular is an extremely strong structural material. They’ve built fighter planes out of the stuff (don’t laugh, the famous WWII-era Mosquito was made of plywood). A typical “box” type platform made of plywood would have the plywood providing the majority of the load-bearing strength — the small “supports” at the corners exist primarily as a connection method for nailing the plywood together into a box, and do not themselves carry a significant load. But without having a picture of this cabinetry, we have no idea what the issues are here solar powered water tank heaters. A good carpenter, on the other hand, definitely would. I can understand that leaking water can cause damage, but there is no visible water damage.

If the cabinet has a veneer, the delamination would most likely be hidden on the inside of this. Are there bubbles in the veneer? I do not know if that means that there is no water damage. I would think the two would highly correlate.

Yes and no. I’ve seen pressboard that looked fine — until I punched my screwdriver at it and my screwdriver went right through, rather than bounce off like with structurally intact pressboard. If it’s no longer wet, water damage may be visible only as some mild staining around the fringes of the damaged area, or only from the bottom (non-visible) side.

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Would the structural strength solar powered water tank heaters of the stand be obvious to a non-carpenter?  How is it built and from what?  Are the supports even visible?

I don’t know. I’m a non-carpenter and I don’t have a clue. The supports are visible, but he never looked at them. (This I know, because a panel has to be removed to see underneath and it never was.) BTW, leaking water could very well have damaged the structural integrity of the stand if it is made of some kind of formed wood products.

It is made of some sort of hardwood with a veneer. I can understand that leaking water can cause damage, but there is no visible water damage. I do not know if that means that there is no water damage. I would think the two would highly correlate. Dimitri

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….. Do I really need to have an engineer on hand to certify that the joists will support the weight in such a case?

If you want someone else to be responsible, yes.  Otherwise YOU are the owner and the owner is ultimately responsible.  Otherwise you’ll just have a pissing contest in court as to if the HVAC guy, who is NOT a structural engineer, “should have known” that where YOU said to put the unit was inadequate. In that case, why didn’t you know too? Is that engineer then liable if the joists give?

Yes, that is what professional liability is all about.  That is why you pay $100 or more per hour for the advice, because the engineer is liable for the consequences of it. -v.

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You knew the old heater was leaking “for a bit”.  The plumber didn’t have enough time to get the cabinet wet and wait for it to warp, unless the job took him a few days.  It sure sounds like the old leaking heater weakened the laminate and you just noticed it the day the plumber was there.  It takes a while for wood to start falling apart, and for the finish to start warping. Ask the finish carpenter for his honest opinion of what happened. Besides all that, I would hope that even I as a “handyman” would have noticed, and told you, that the old water damaged cabinet wouldn’t hold the weight for long.  But I don’t know if you can hold him responsible for telling you that.  And certainly not for the fact that is falling apart. — Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had a company come out and install a new water heater into an existing enclosure. The old water heater was 30 gallons. I asked if it would be possible to install a 40 gallon heater instead. They said that the installer would take a look to see if it was possible, and that he carried both sizes on his truck. When the installer came out, he said that a 40 gallon wouldn’t be a problem. He began installing the new water heater. I was in and out of the area, so I kept an eye on what he was doing but I wasn’t watching intently. When I went back into the room after the tank began to fill, I noticed the finish on my cabinet was warping. I couldn’t remember if it had been like that previously that day (it had NOT been like that in the recent past). I asked the installer about it and he said that it was probably caused by moisture (the old water heater was leaking a bit). That sounded reasonable. Although I was unhappy solar powered water tank heaters with having to get it refinished, shit happens. Well, he completed the installation and everything was working fine. I paid him and he left. When I came home from work that night, I found that the cabinet was worse. It was obvious that it was not moisture, but that the cabinet had started buckling. I shut off the water and drained the water heater. I called the company and they said that they can move the water heater outside (there is an enclosure for a defunct solar water heater). This wouldn’t be free. Or, they said that they can uninstall the water heater and reinstall it for free after I have the cabinet reinforced by a carpenter (I pay for the carpenter). To get to the point (finally), regardless of the outcome of the water heater installation itself are they liable for the damages to my cabinetry? A finish carpenter has given me a quote of $500-600 to repair the damage. I feel like I shouldn’t have to pay that fee, or at least not all of it. What would be reasonable and customary in this sort of situation? I wish to be fair to all parties involved and I am not looking for a free ride. However, neither do I wish to easily part with my hard-earned money if I shouldn’t have to. Any advice is appreciated. Dimitri

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[snip!] It seems to me that you need to get a carpenter in there to rebuild this cabinet. It has been severely water damaged, and is going to collapse, whether it has a 40 gallon tank or 30 gallon tank sitting upon it. Whether this requires the plumber to come out and temporarily disconnect the tank or not depends upon the construction of the cabinet and of the hookups between tank and house.

This seems a likely course of action. The wood is NOT damp, though, just so that you know. Thanks for your response. Dimitri

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I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again).

Would the structural strength of the stand be obvious to a non-carpenter?  How is it built and from what?  Are the supports even visible? The difference in weight between a 30 and 40 gallon tank will be 80 pounds for the water (“a pint’s a pound the world around”) plus a bit (no more than 5-10 pounds I’d guess) for the larger tank.  30 gallons weighs 240 pounds alone.  I wouldn’t think that an extra 80-90 pounds would make a difference unless the structure was somwhat flimsy to begin with. BTW, leaking water could very well have damaged the structural integrity of the stand if it is made of some kind of formed wood products.

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ok…you answered your own question…im sure he did NOT force you to take a 40 gal either…you remind me of that thread that was running about the window…you’re looking for someone to reinforce your beliefs…im not being defensive, just saying, i interview my clients, it doesnt take long for that…back to the subject, you answered your own question…why u jumping my rear because you havent seen an answer that you liked so far, is beyond me…i was going by what you had written, now you’re adding that the information you had posted wasnt correct, guess i should’ve figured that one

lets see…it was your request for the 40 gallon, instead of replacing with a “like” 30 gallon…now its buckling from the weight and the fact you admit the “old water leaked was leaking a bit” and had an effect on the cabinet…dang, im glad im choosy about my clients…

Well, the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect on the cabinet. That was just the explanation the installer gave. It seemed reasonable at the time, but later on proved to be incorrect. As far as my request, I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one. I think it’s funny that you say you are choosy about your clients. You wouldn’t know what we are like until after the fact, no? I’d like to say the same about the contractors that I hire, but the fact is that (even with a recommendation) one doesn’t know until after the fact. I am perfectly willing to be reasonable. I am not demanding anything from the plumber just yet. I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again). Don’t be so defensive.

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Yeah, but you can’t expect this guy to compute the load bearing characteristics of your cabinetry.  A gallon of water weighs about 8.5 lbs, so the new heater added 85 lbs of extra water, plus maybe 15 pounds of tank weight.  You’re talking about 100lbs, not really a lot when it comes right down to it.  If this extra 100lbs caused your cabinet to buckle, you were at its limits before, and a new 30 gallon heater might’ve also been enough to cause the cabinet to buckle.

Of course, I can’t be sure what happened. Maybe the guy damaged it in some way. Like you say, 100 lbs isn’t really a lot. In fact, I’ve since had a carpenter look at it and he thinks it should’ve been fine based on the construction. Of course then that begs the question of whether the plumber should’ve suspected a problem to begin with then. On the other hand, the problem was pointed out to him and he deemed it cosmetic. Might the problem be that the water heater wasn’t leveled? I don’t really know. All I know is that it was fine before and not so fine afterwards. I am looking at it from the standpoint of what might’ve happened if this small problem had been a catastrophe. I feel like a relied on a professional’s advice that it was cosmetic damage when it was not. I realize he’s not a structural engineer, though, and that is why I am curious as to what exactly the potential liabilities are in situations such as these. Say, for example, that an air conditioning guy installs a unit in my attic and the joists give way under the weight. Do I really need to have solar powered water tank heaters an engineer on hand to certify that the joists will support the weight in such a case? What if I do? Is that engineer then liable if the joists give? Additionally, the $500ish quote you received sounds fairly outrageous, but I’m not sure what the work entailed.

Everything is outrageous. I’m sure if I asked a contractor to change a light bulb he’d charge me $200. Bottom line, this is part of the joys of home/condo ownership.  Not everything always works out perfectly, and you sometimes have to adapt as life goes on.

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I had a company come out and install a new solar powered water tank heaters into an existing enclosure. The old water heater was 30 gallons. I asked if it would be possible to install a 40 gallon heater instead. They said that the installer would take a look to see if it was possible, and that he carried both sizes on his truck. When the installer came out, he said that a 40 gallon wouldn’t be a problem. He began installing the new water heater. I was in and out of the area, so I kept an eye on what he was doing but I wasn’t watching intently. When I went back into the room after the tank began to fill, I noticed the finish on my cabinet was warping. I couldn’t remember if it had been like that previously that day (it had NOT been like that in the recent past). I asked the installer about it and he said that it was probably caused by moisture (the old water heater was leaking a bit). That sounded reasonable. Although I was unhappy with having to get it refinished, shit happens. Well, he completed the installation and everything was working fine. I paid him and he left. When I came home from work that night, I found that the cabinet was worse. It was obvious that it was not moisture, but that the cabinet had started buckling. I shut off the water and drained the water heater. I called the company and they said that they can move the water heater outside (there is an enclosure for a defunct solar water heater). This wouldn’t be free. Or, they said that they can uninstall the water heater and reinstall it for free after I have the cabinet reinforced by a carpenter (I pay for the carpenter). To get to the point (finally), regardless of the outcome of the water heater installation itself are they liable for the damages to my cabinetry? A finish carpenter has given me a quote of $500-600 to repair the damage. I feel like I shouldn’t have to pay that fee, or at least not all of it. What would be reasonable and customary in this sort of situation? I wish to be fair to all parties involved and I am not looking for a free ride. However, neither do I wish to easily part with my hard-earned money if I shouldn’t have to. Any advice is appreciated. Dimitri

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It takes a while for wood to warp.

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Hi, Always two way street. Be nice to be treated nice. .

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That seems fair.   With some advice and help from your local lumber yard, the carpentry work may actually be something you could handle yourself.  Even if not, I’m not sure it would really require the services of a finish-level carpenter (unless the exterior of the cabinet has been affected).  A handyman type person might well be able to do that job for $100,  I don’t know about you, but I don’t spend all that much time admiring the interior of my water heater cabinet. Having no hot water is a sobering experience, however, isn’t it? Reminds me of the time when the gas line on the street where I lived developed some problem that took nearly a week to repair. It is possible, I discovered, to get along without.  You just heat up a big pot of water — two would be better — and use the contents efficiently.   Good luck!

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Ok..its obvious here that you are solar powered water tank heaters like the guy with the windows that hes being asked to pay for. You want someone here to say..yea..go after that scumbag and make him pay for the cabinet……. But…as EVERYONE in here knows, water leaking in a wood enclosure will not show damage RIGHT away, and now, you are trying to get something for nothing, or looking for a way to get it. Your OWN comments show either total complete ignorance, or, a selfish greedy bastard…sorry…but thats it.. Look at the comment…Well..the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect (effect) on the cabinet. Ok..how do you know? The installer of the new unit didnt know, or else he would have not installed it. One thing, thats a constant, water and wood dont mix, and over time, key word time, it will warp. Remove the water, and it will shrink and buckle…add weight, (you did) and it will warp and buckle. IF  and thats IF that cabinet was in top shape, brand new, and the new tank leaked from the second he left till now…what..a couple of days…it would still look like a new wet cabinet… I think it’s funny that you say you are choosy about your clients. You wouldn’t know what we are like until after the fact, no?

No..most contractors can tell in a matter of seconds if we really want to do business with you. I told a real estate agents secretary to go fly a kite today, and in the process, probably lost $5500 in business….so what? Feels better knowing your customers are not out to screw you…and no..we dont screw our customers either.. I’d like to say the same about the contractors that I hire, but the fact is that (even with a recommendation) one doesn’t know until after the fact.

Actually…most people can read another…IF you are paying attention…but..you are going to ignore all this anyway..so whats the point… I am perfectly willing to be reasonable. I am not demanding anything from the plumber just yet.

Hints to you looking to think about it…. I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again). Don’t be so defensive.

We are not…we are being matter of fact. A plumber is NOT a wood expert. Have you ever gone to replace the brakes on your car…taken the wheel off, and about the time you go to take the rotor off, you find out the bearings a bit loose…then, you go to pack it, and find out you are out another 50 bux for two bearings, races, and a seal? Look at this the same way…you went to fix one problem, and found another caused for whatever reason, its there, and its time to fix it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dimitri

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… I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one.

You ASKED and they complied.  Woulda been better for your view of things if they had FORCED you kicking and screaming at gun point to take a bigger heater, but they didn’t.  Interesting  how hindsight changes perception; did you really say “accomodated” or did you just say “fit”???   It does FIT.  How was the installer to know your CUSTOM enclosure was of inadequate strength to hold up the heater?  The old leak very well COULD be a factor, it weakened the bottom of your custom cabinet so that the incremental added weight of the new heater was too much for it.  There should be a substantial safety margin here, and if the added weight of the extra 10 gallons did it in, IMHO it was inadequate to begin with.  (And it really makes no difference that the installer was mistaken the first time as to how bad the problem was; if he was right from the beginning, would it make a difference at this point?) Look, you don’t want to have to shell out (very understandable) but really, you are grasping at straws here.  Water heaters are usually on the floor, the cabinet is your responsibility.  The installer didn’t do anything wrong.  If you don’t want to accept this, go to court, convince them that the installer should have warned you about how strong your own cabinet was.

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Of course, I can’t be sure what happened. Maybe the guy damaged it in some way. Like you say, 100 lbs isn’t really a lot. In fact, I’ve since had a carpenter look at it and he thinks it should’ve been fine based on the construction. Of course then that begs the question of whether the plumber should’ve suspected a problem to begin with then.

You asked for a larger unit, your old unit was leaking…the old unit weakened the supports in the old cabnet…. Pretty cut and dried here… On the other hand, the problem was pointed out to him and he deemed it cosmetic. Might the problem be that the water heater wasn’t leveled? I don’t really know. All I know is that it was fine before and not so fine afterwards.

Water heaters could be installed sideways and they wont leak…. I am looking at it from the standpoint of what might’ve happened if this small problem had been a catastrophe. I feel like a relied on a professional’s advice that it was cosmetic damage when it was not. I realize he’s not a structural engineer, though, and that is why I am curious as to what exactly the potential liabilities are in situations such as these.

Potential liability….simple…you asked for something, you got it….a plumber isnt a cabinet maker…and vice versa. Say, for example, that an air conditioning guy installs a unit in my attic and the joists give way under the weight. Do I really need to have an engineer on hand to certify that the joists will support the weight in such a case? What if I do? Is that engineer then liable if the joists give?

Actually..in some cases, yes..you DO need to have it checked, and in some cases, if your roof joists wont handle an extra 75 to 125 pounds spread out over the area that the unit is hung from….you have bigger issues…really.. Additionally, the $500ish quote you received sounds fairly outrageous, but I’m not sure what the work entailed. Everything is outrageous. I’m sure if I asked a contractor to change a light bulb he’d charge me $200.

Probably…is it an electrician you are asking? Those trucks run for free you know.. Bottom line, this is part of the joys of home/condo ownership.  Not everything always works out perfectly, and you sometimes have to adapt as life goes on.

Amen…finer words never spoken on this subject. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Perhaps. Thanks for the response. Dimitri

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The difference in weight between a 30 and 40 gallon tank will be 80 pounds for the water (“a pint’s a pound the world around”)

Except in the UK, where a pint weighs 1.25 lbs. Dan

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D.,    It sounds as if the cabinet which holds your water heater is failing for some reason. Your desire to lay the blame on the plumber while understandable is not substantiated by the facts as you present them. I’m not sure why you feel the need to have others agree with you about the plumber.    This is a small matter but if you must know who to blame hire an engineer to come to your home and investigate. The opinions of internet strangers who can’t see your problem will have no bearing on the blame, if there is any. Dave M.

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Would the structural strength of the stand be obvious to a non-carpenter?  How is it built and from what?  Are the supports even visible? BTW, leaking water could very well have damaged the structural integrity of the stand if it is made of some kind of formed wood products. It is made of some sort of hardwood with a veneer.

This is extremely unlikely, unless it is more than 40 years old. Virtually everything with a veneer made in recent times is either plywood or some sort of pressboard (formed wood product). Most people willing to pay for solid wood (as vs. a manufactured wood product) are willing to pay the small premium for FINISHABLE solid wood (i.e., no veneer required). All manufactured wood products are subject to internal damage caused by waterlogging. Water causes the wood fibres to swell, which breaks the glue bonds that hold the manufactured product together and give it strength. Even when the water is no longer present, the glue bonds are still broken. In the worst case (pressboard or sawdust-board, as I call it), the whole thing crumbles to sawdust at the merest touch of the tip of a screwdriver. I’ve seen the same thing happen to OSB, though it usually holds together and merely becomes spongy and flexible rather than crumbling into sawdust. In the best case (a good quality plywood), only a layer or two will delaminate. Usually it’s a layer on the top of the sheet, but this very much depends upon the pattern of the water flows, and whether the top of the sheet was protected by a water-resistent veneer or coating. I’ve seen water run along the bottom of a sheet of plywood (due to a leaking roof vent) where it destroyed that sheet of plywood from the bottom. Now, the structural implications depend upon the cabinet and its supports. Plywood in particular is an extremely strong structural material. They’ve built fighter planes out of the stuff (don’t laugh, the famous WWII-era Mosquito was made of plywood). A typical “box” type platform made of plywood would have the plywood providing the majority of the load-bearing strength — the small “supports” at the corners exist primarily as a connection method for nailing the plywood together into a box, and do not themselves carry a significant load. But without having a picture of this cabinetry, we have no idea what the issues are here. A good carpenter, on the other hand, definitely would. I can understand that leaking water can cause damage, but there is no visible water damage.

If the cabinet has a veneer, the delamination would most likely be hidden on the inside of this. Are there bubbles in the veneer? I do not know if that means that there is no water damage. I would think the two would highly correlate.

Yes and no. I’ve seen pressboard that looked fine — until I punched my screwdriver at it and my screwdriver went right through, rather than bounce off like with structurally intact pressboard. If it’s no longer wet, water damage may be visible only as some mild staining around the fringes of the damaged area, or only from the bottom (non-visible) side.

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Seems that, in this situation, the customer and the plumber might have anticipated that the cabinet was damaged by the previous leak.  Unusual sounding installation, to be on the platform rather than floor.  Ennyhoo, only liability I can see (not a plumber) is possibly if the install does not comply with mfg. recommendations and code.  I’m not a lawyer, either.  Probably easier in the long run to get it done right.  If not in compliance with mfg. install recommendations, try writing a letter.  Still,  with an old leak inside the cabinet I’m wondering what you expected.

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Would the structural strength of the stand be obvious to a non-carpenter?  How is it built and from what?  Are the supports even visible?

I don’t know. I’m a non-carpenter and I don’t have a clue. The supports are visible, but he never looked at them. (This I know, because a panel has to be removed to see underneath and it never was.) BTW, leaking water could very well have damaged the structural integrity of the stand if it is made of some kind of formed wood products.

It is made of some sort of hardwood with a veneer. I can understand that leaking water can cause damage, but there is no visible water damage. I do not know if that means that there is no water damage. I would think the two would highly correlate. Dimitri

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….. Do I really need to have an engineer on hand to certify that the joists will support the weight in such a case?

If you want someone else to be responsible, yes.  Otherwise YOU are the owner and the owner is ultimately responsible.  Otherwise you’ll just have a pissing contest in court as to if the HVAC guy, who is NOT a structural engineer, “should have known” that where YOU said to put the unit was inadequate. In that case, why didn’t you know too? Is that engineer then liable if the joists give?

Yes, that is what professional liability is all about.  That is why you pay $100 or more per hour for the advice, because the engineer is liable for the consequences of it. -v.

Response:

You knew the old heater was leaking “for a bit”.  The plumber didn’t have enough time to get the cabinet wet and wait for it to warp, unless the job took him a few days.  It sure sounds like the old leaking heater weakened the laminate and you just noticed it the day the plumber was there.  It takes a while for wood to start falling apart, and for the finish to start warping. Ask the finish carpenter for his honest opinion of what happened. Besides all that, I would hope that even I as a “handyman” would have noticed, and told you, that the old water damaged cabinet wouldn’t hold the weight for long.  But I don’t know if you can hold him responsible for telling you that.  And certainly not for the fact that is falling apart. — Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had a company come out and install a new water heater into an existing enclosure. The old water heater was 30 gallons. I asked if it would be possible to install a 40 gallon heater instead. They said that the installer would take a look to see if it was possible, and that he carried both sizes on his truck. When the installer came out, he said that a 40 gallon wouldn’t be a problem. He began installing the new water heater. I was in and out of the area, so I kept an eye on what he was doing but I wasn’t watching intently. When I went back into the room after the tank began to fill, I noticed the finish on my cabinet was warping. I couldn’t remember if it had been like that previously that day (it had NOT been like that in the recent past). I asked the installer about it and he said that it was probably caused by moisture (the old water heater was leaking a bit). That sounded reasonable. Although I was unhappy with having to get it refinished, shit happens. Well, he completed the installation and everything was working fine. I paid him and he left. When I came home from work that night, I found that the cabinet was worse. It was obvious that it was not moisture, but that the cabinet had started buckling. I shut off the water and drained the water heater. I called the company and they said that they can move the water heater outside (there is an enclosure for a defunct solar water heater). This wouldn’t be free. Or, they said that they can uninstall the water heater and reinstall it for free after I have the cabinet reinforced by a carpenter (I pay for the carpenter). To get to the point (finally), regardless of the outcome of the water heater installation itself are they liable for the damages to my cabinetry? A finish carpenter has given me a quote of $500-600 to repair the damage. I feel like I shouldn’t have to pay that fee, or at least not all of it. What would be reasonable and customary in this sort of situation? I wish to be fair to all parties involved and I am not looking for a free ride. However, neither do I wish to easily part with my hard-earned money if I shouldn’t have to. Any advice is appreciated. Dimitri

Response:

It takes a while for wood to warp.

Response:

It takes a while for wood to warp.

Understood. In this case the wood is buckling under the weight. Who is liable to make that repair? I paid a professional to properly size and install the water heater so that it would be done without these sorts of problems. Dimitri

Response:

I had a company come out and install a new water heater into an existing enclosure. The old water heater was 30 gallons. I asked if it would be possible to install a 40 gallon heater instead. They said that the installer would take a look to see if it was possible, and that he carried both sizes on his truck.

Some more details, please… Just where is this heater installed, and exactly what is buckling? The more detail you can provide, the better able folks will be to answer your question.

Response:

I can’t see your problem from here, but from your description, it does not sound like the plumbers fault.

Response:

Some more details, please… Just where is this heater installed, and exactly what is buckling? The more detail you can provide, the better able folks will be to answer your question.

It is installed in the kitchen in an enclosure made especially for it. It is not resting on the floor, but on a platform. The left side of the enclosure is buckling and the water heater is no longer level with the floor (tilts slightly to one side). The buckling is occuring at the bottom near the floor and also at the place where the platform joins the side of the enclosure. Dimitri

Response:

I can’t see your problem from here, but from your description, it does not sound like the plumbers fault.

The question is if the plumber is responsible for: a) Proper sizing b) Identifying a minor problem before it becomes/became a major one. What    if the whole thing had collapsed? I am not saying that these are necessarily the plumber’s responsibilities, but I am not saying that they are not either. That is why I am asking. Dimitri

Response:

lets see…it was your request for the 40 gallon, instead of replacing with a “like” 30 gallon…now its buckling from the weight and the fact you admit the “old water leaked was leaking a bit” and had an effect on the cabinet…dang, im glad im choosy about my clients… Roofguy

I had a company come out and install a new water heater into an existing enclosure. The old water heater was 30 gallons. I asked if it would be possible to install a 40 gallon heater instead. They said that the installer would take a look to see if it was possible, and that he carried both sizes on his truck. When the installer came out, he said that a 40 gallon wouldn’t be a problem. He began installing the new water heater. I was in and out of the area, so I kept an eye on what he was doing but I wasn’t watching intently. When I went back into the room after the tank began to fill, I noticed the finish on my cabinet was warping. I couldn’t remember if it had been like that previously that day (it had NOT been like that in the recent past). I asked the installer about it and he said that it was probably caused by moisture (the old water heater was leaking a bit). That sounded reasonable. Although I was unhappy with having to get it refinished, shit happens. Well, he completed the installation and everything was working fine. I paid him and he left. When I came home from work that night, I found that the cabinet was worse. It was obvious that it was not moisture, but that the cabinet had started buckling. I shut off the water and drained the water heater. I called the company and they said that they can move the water heater outside (there is an enclosure for a defunct solar water heater). This wouldn’t be free. Or, they said that they can uninstall the water heater and reinstall it for free after I have the cabinet reinforced by a carpenter (I pay for the carpenter). To get to the point (finally), regardless of the outcome of the water heater installation itself are they liable for the damages to my cabinetry? A finish carpenter has given me a quote of $500-600 to repair the damage. I feel like I shouldn’t have to pay that fee, or at least not all of it. What would be reasonable and customary in this sort of situation? I wish to be fair to all parties involved and I am not looking for a free ride. However, neither do I wish to easily part with my hard-earned money if I shouldn’t have to. Any advice is appreciated. Dimitri

Response:

lets see…it was your request for the 40 gallon, instead of replacing with a “like” 30 gallon…now its buckling from the weight and the fact you admit the “old water leaked was leaking a bit” and had an effect on the cabinet…dang, im glad im choosy about my clients…

Well, the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect on the cabinet. That was just the explanation the installer gave. It seemed reasonable at the time, but later on proved to be incorrect. As far as my request, I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one. I think it’s funny that you say you are choosy about your clients. You wouldn’t know what we are like until after the fact, no? I’d like to say the same about the contractors that I hire, but the fact is that (even with a recommendation) one doesn’t know until after the fact. I am perfectly willing to be reasonable. I am not demanding anything from the plumber just yet. I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again). Don’t be so defensive. Dimitri

Response:

Well, the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect on the cabinet.

Bullsh**. It’s obvious to me that the cabinet is delaminating and is collapsing because of water damage. The added weight of the 40 gallon tank only hastened the collapse, it did not cause it. The root cause is that the water-caused swelling of the layers of plywood that make up the structure of the cabinet has broken the glue bond between the layers (delamination), thus destroying the strength of the cabinet. This is a common type of water damage, and is why marine-grade plywood or OSB is generally required in modern installations of this type. reasonable at the time, but later on proved to be incorrect. As far as my request, I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one.

Note that a plumber is not a carpenter, and is not responsible for carpentry. He looked at the plumbing and cabinet size to see whether it could accomodate the 40 gallon tank, and it could. He does not have the expertise to evaluate carpentry-related matters. I am perfectly willing to be reasonable. I am not demanding anything from the plumber just yet. I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again). Don’t be so defensive.

It seems to me that you need to get a carpenter in there to rebuild this cabinet. It has been severely water damaged, and is going to collapse, whether it has a 40 gallon tank or 30 gallon tank sitting upon it. Whether this requires the plumber to come out and temporarily disconnect the tank or not depends upon the construction of the cabinet and of the hookups between tank and house.

Response:

I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again).

Would the structural strength of the stand be obvious to a non-carpenter?  How is it built and from what?  Are the supports even visible? The difference in weight between a 30 and 40 gallon tank will be 80 pounds for the water (“a pint’s a pound the world around”) plus a bit (no more than 5-10 pounds I’d guess) for the larger tank.  30 gallons weighs 240 pounds alone.  I wouldn’t think that an extra 80-90 pounds would make a difference unless the structure was somwhat flimsy to begin with. BTW, leaking water could very well have damaged the structural integrity of the stand if it is made of some kind of formed wood products.

Response:

ok…you answered your own question…im sure he did NOT force you to take a 40 gal either…you remind me of that thread that was running about the window…you’re looking for someone to reinforce your beliefs…im not being defensive, just saying, i interview my clients, it doesnt take long for that…back to the subject, you answered your own question…why u jumping my rear because you havent seen an answer that you liked so far, is beyond me…i was going by what you had written, now you’re adding that the information you had posted wasnt correct, guess i should’ve figured that one too Roofguy

lets see…it was your request for the 40 gallon, instead of replacing with a “like” 30 gallon…now its buckling from the weight and the fact you admit the “old water leaked was leaking a bit” and had an effect on the cabinet…dang, im glad im choosy about my clients…

Well, the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect on the cabinet. That was just the explanation the installer gave. It seemed reasonable at the time, but later on proved to be incorrect. As far as my request, I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one. I think it’s funny that you say you are choosy about your clients. You wouldn’t know what we are like until after the fact, no? I’d like to say the same about the contractors that I hire, but the fact is that (even with a recommendation) one doesn’t know until after the fact. I am perfectly willing to be reasonable. I am not demanding anything from the plumber just yet. I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again). Don’t be so defensive. Dimitri

Response:

Yeah, but you can’t expect this guy to compute the load bearing characteristics of your cabinetry.  A gallon of water weighs about 8.5 lbs, so the new heater added 85 lbs of extra water, plus maybe 15 pounds of tank weight.  You’re talking about 100lbs, not really a lot when it comes right down to it.  If this extra 100lbs caused your cabinet to buckle, you were at its limits before, and a new 30 gallon heater might’ve also been enough to cause the cabinet to buckle.

Of course, I can’t be sure what happened. Maybe the guy damaged it in some way. Like you say, 100 lbs isn’t really a lot. In fact, I’ve since had a carpenter look at it and he thinks it should’ve been fine based on the construction. Of course then that begs the question of whether the plumber should’ve suspected a problem to begin with then. On the other hand, the problem was pointed out to him and he deemed it cosmetic. Might the problem be that the water heater wasn’t leveled? I don’t really know. All I know is that it was fine before and not so fine afterwards. I am looking at it from the standpoint of what might’ve happened if this small problem had been a catastrophe. I feel like a relied on a professional’s advice that it was cosmetic damage when it was not. I realize he’s not a structural engineer, though, and that is why I am curious as to what exactly the potential liabilities are in situations such as these. Say, for example, that an air conditioning guy installs a unit in my attic and the joists give way under the weight. Do I really need to have an engineer on hand to certify that the joists will support the weight in such a case? What if I do? Is that engineer then liable if the joists give? Additionally, the $500ish quote you received sounds fairly outrageous, but I’m not sure what the work entailed.

Everything is outrageous. I’m sure if I asked a contractor to change a light bulb he’d charge me $200. Bottom line, this is part of the joys of home/condo ownership.  Not everything always works out perfectly, and you sometimes have to adapt as life goes on.

Perhaps. Thanks for the response. Dimitri

Response:

I had a company come out and install a new water heater into an existing enclosure. The old water heater was 30 gallons. I asked if it would be possible to install a 40 gallon heater instead. They said that the installer would take a look to see if it was possible, and that he carried both sizes on his truck. When the installer came out, he said that a 40 gallon wouldn’t be a problem. He began installing the new water heater. I was in and out of the area, so I kept an eye on what he was doing but I wasn’t watching intently. When I went back into the room after the tank began to fill, I noticed the finish on my cabinet was warping. I couldn’t remember if it had been like that previously that day (it had NOT been like that in the recent past). I asked the installer about it and he said that it was probably caused by moisture (the old water heater was leaking a bit). That sounded reasonable. Although I was unhappy with having to get it refinished, shit happens. Well, he completed the installation and everything was working fine. I paid him and he left. When I came home from work that night, I found that the cabinet was worse. It was obvious that it was not moisture, but that the cabinet had started buckling. I shut off the water and drained the water heater. I called the company and they said that they can move the water heater outside (there is an enclosure for a defunct solar water heater). This wouldn’t be free. Or, they said that they can uninstall the water heater and reinstall it for free after I have the cabinet reinforced by a carpenter (I pay for the carpenter). To get to the point (finally), regardless of the outcome of the water heater installation itself are they liable for the damages to my cabinetry? A finish carpenter has given me a quote of $500-600 to repair the damage. I feel like I shouldn’t have to pay that fee, or at least not all of it. What would be reasonable and customary in this sort of situation? I wish to be fair to all parties involved and I am not looking for a free ride. However, neither do I wish to easily part with my hard-earned money if I shouldn’t have to. Any advice is appreciated. Dimitri

Response:

Hi, Always two way street. Be nice to be treated nice. . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – lets see…it was your request for the 40 gallon, instead of replacing with a “like” 30 gallon…now its buckling from the weight and the fact you admit the “old water leaked was leaking a bit” and had an effect on the cabinet…dang, im glad im choosy about my clients… Well, the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect on the cabinet. That was just the explanation the installer gave. It seemed reasonable at the time, but later on proved to be incorrect. As far as my request, I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one. Ok..its obvious here that you are like the guy with the windows that hes being asked to pay for. You want someone here to say..yea..go after that scumbag and make him pay for the cabinet……. But…as EVERYONE in here knows, water leaking in a wood enclosure will not show damage RIGHT away, and now, you are trying to get something for nothing, or looking for a way to get it. Your OWN comments show either total complete ignorance, or, a selfish greedy bastard…sorry…but thats it.. Look at the comment…Well..the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect (effect) on the cabinet. Ok..how do you know? The installer of the new unit didnt know, or else he would have not installed it. One thing, thats a constant, water and wood dont mix, and over time, key word time, it will warp. Remove the water, and it will shrink and buckle…add weight, (you did) and it will warp and buckle. IF  and thats IF that cabinet was in top shape, brand new, and the new tank leaked from the second he left till now…what..a couple of days…it would still look like a new wet cabinet… I think it’s funny that you say you are choosy about your clients. You wouldn’t know what we are like until after the fact, no? No..most contractors can tell in a matter of seconds if we really want to do business with you. I told a real estate agents secretary to go fly a kite today, and in the process, probably lost $5500 in business….so what? Feels better knowing your customers are not out to screw you…and no..we dont screw our customers either.. I’d like to say the same about the contractors that I hire, but the fact is that (even with a recommendation) one doesn’t know until after the fact. Actually…most people can read another…IF you are paying attention…but..you are going to ignore all this anyway..so whats the point… I am perfectly willing to be reasonable. I am not demanding anything from the plumber just yet. Hints to you looking to think about it…. I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again). Don’t be so defensive. We are not…we are being matter of fact. A plumber is NOT a wood expert. Have you ever gone to replace the brakes on your car…taken the wheel off, and about the time you go to take the rotor off, you find out the bearings a bit loose…then, you go to pack it, and find out you are out another 50 bux for two bearings, races, and a seal? Look at this the same way…you went to fix one problem, and found another caused for whatever reason, its there, and its time to fix it. Dimitri

Response:

<snip I’m no expert, but my logic is that the plumber’s opinion that a 40 gallon water heater could be installed was probably based primarily on clearances rather than on an evaluation of the structure.  If so, that seems perfectly reasonable to me — he is, after all, not a structural engineer.  And the extra ten gallons adds only (what?) maybe an additional 80 pounds of total weight. It sounds like the platform on which the water heater sits was intended to carry only the exact weight of a 30 gallon model.  In my mind, that’s marginal construction to begin with and it wasn’t likely going to survive for much longer anyway.  If I were you, I would think that it should be improved before even if a new 30 gallon heater was to be installed. I called the company and they said that they [are willing to] uninstall the water heater and reinstall it for free after I have the cabinet reinforced by a carpenter (I pay for the carpenter).

That seems fair.   With some advice and help from your local lumber yard, the carpentry work may actually be something you could handle yourself.  Even if not, I’m not sure it would really require the services of a finish-level carpenter (unless the exterior of the cabinet has been affected).  A handyman type person might well be able to do that job for $100,  I don’t know about you, but I don’t spend all that much time admiring the interior of my water heater cabinet. Having no hot water is a sobering experience, however, isn’t it? Reminds me of the time when the gas line on the street where I lived developed some problem that took nearly a week to repair. It is possible, I discovered, to get along without.  You just heat up a big pot of water — two would be better — and use the contents efficiently.   Good luck!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – lets see…it was your request for the 40 gallon, instead of replacing with a “like” 30 gallon…now its buckling from the weight and the fact you admit the “old water leaked was leaking a bit” and had an effect on the cabinet…dang, im glad im choosy about my clients… Well, the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect on the cabinet. That was just the explanation the installer gave. It seemed reasonable at the time, but later on proved to be incorrect. As far as my request, I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one.

Ok..its obvious here that you are like the guy with the windows that hes being asked to pay for. You want someone here to say..yea..go after that scumbag and make him pay for the cabinet……. But…as EVERYONE in here knows, water leaking in a wood enclosure will not show damage RIGHT away, and now, you are trying to get something for nothing, or looking for a way to get it. Your OWN comments show either total complete ignorance, or, a selfish greedy bastard…sorry…but thats it.. Look at the comment…Well..the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect (effect) on the cabinet. Ok..how do you know? The installer of the new unit didnt know, or else he would have not installed it. One thing, thats a constant, water and wood dont mix, and over time, key word time, it will warp. Remove the water, and it will shrink and buckle…add weight, (you did) and it will warp and buckle. IF  and thats IF that cabinet was in top shape, brand new, and the new tank leaked from the second he left till now…what..a couple of days…it would still look like a new wet cabinet… I think it’s funny that you say you are choosy about your clients. You wouldn’t know what we are like until after the fact, no?

No..most contractors can tell in a matter of seconds if we really want to do business with you. I told a real estate agents secretary to go fly a kite today, and in the process, probably lost $5500 in business….so what? Feels better knowing your customers are not out to screw you…and no..we dont screw our customers either.. I’d like to say the same about the contractors that I hire, but the fact is that (even with a recommendation) one doesn’t know until after the fact.

Actually…most people can read another…IF you are paying attention…but..you are going to ignore all this anyway..so whats the point… I am perfectly willing to be reasonable. I am not demanding anything from the plumber just yet.

Hints to you looking to think about it…. I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again). Don’t be so defensive.

We are not…we are being matter of fact. A plumber is NOT a wood expert. Have you ever gone to replace the brakes on your car…taken the wheel off, and about the time you go to take the rotor off, you find out the bearings a bit loose…then, you go to pack it, and find out you are out another 50 bux for two bearings, races, and a seal? Look at this the same way…you went to fix one problem, and found another caused for whatever reason, its there, and its time to fix it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dimitri

Response:

… I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one.

You ASKED and they complied.  Woulda been better for your view of things if they had FORCED you kicking and screaming at gun point to take a bigger heater, but they didn’t.  Interesting  how hindsight changes perception; did you really say “accomodated” or did you just say “fit”???   It does FIT.  How was the installer to know your CUSTOM enclosure was of inadequate strength to hold up the heater?  The old leak very well COULD be a factor, it weakened the bottom of your custom cabinet so that the incremental added weight of the new heater was too much for it.  There should be a substantial safety margin here, and if the added weight of the extra 10 gallons did it in, IMHO it was inadequate to begin with.  (And it really makes no difference that the installer was mistaken the first time as to how bad the problem was; if he was right from the beginning, would it make a difference at this point?) Look, you don’t want to have to shell out (very understandable) but really, you are grasping at straws here.  Water heaters are usually on the floor, the cabinet is your responsibility.  The installer didn’t do anything wrong.  If you don’t want to accept this, go to court, convince them that the installer should have warned you about how strong your own cabinet was.

Response:

Of course, I can’t be sure what happened. Maybe the guy damaged it in some way. Like you say, 100 lbs isn’t really a lot. In fact, I’ve since had a carpenter look at it and he thinks it should’ve been fine based on the construction. Of course then that begs the question of whether the plumber should’ve suspected a problem to begin with then.

You asked for a larger unit, your old unit was leaking…the old unit weakened the supports in the old cabnet…. Pretty cut and dried here… On the other hand, the problem was pointed out to him and he deemed it cosmetic. Might the problem be that the water heater wasn’t leveled? I don’t really know. All I know is that it was fine before and not so fine afterwards.

Water heaters could be installed sideways and they wont leak…. I am looking at it from the standpoint of what might’ve happened if this small problem had been a catastrophe. I feel like a relied on a professional’s advice that it was cosmetic damage when it was not. I realize he’s not a structural engineer, though, and that is why I am curious as to what exactly the potential liabilities are in situations such as these.

Potential liability….simple…you asked for something, you got it….a plumber isnt a cabinet maker…and vice versa. Say, for example, that an air conditioning guy installs a unit in my attic and the joists give way under the weight. Do I really need to have an engineer on hand to certify that the joists will support the weight in such a case? What if I do? Is that engineer then liable if the joists give?

Actually..in some cases, yes..you DO need to have it checked, and in some cases, if your roof joists wont handle an extra 75 to 125 pounds spread out over the area that the unit is hung from….you have bigger issues…really.. Additionally, the $500ish quote you received sounds fairly outrageous, but I’m not sure what the work entailed. Everything is outrageous. I’m sure if I asked a contractor to change a light bulb he’d charge me $200.

Probably…is it an electrician you are asking? Those trucks run for free you know.. Bottom line, this is part of the joys of home/condo ownership.  Not everything always works out perfectly, and you sometimes have to adapt as life goes on.

Amen…finer words never spoken on this subject. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Perhaps. Thanks for the response. Dimitri

Response:

The difference in weight between a 30 and 40 gallon tank will be 80 pounds for the water (“a pint’s a pound the world around”)

Except in the UK, where a pint weighs 1.25 lbs. Dan

Response:

D.,    It sounds as if the cabinet which holds your water heater is failing for some reason. Your desire to lay the blame on the plumber while understandable is not substantiated by the facts as you present them. I’m not sure why you feel the need to have others agree with you about the plumber.    This is a small matter but if you must know who to blame hire an engineer to come to your home and investigate. The opinions of internet strangers who can’t see your problem will have no bearing on the blame, if there is any. Dave M.

Response:

Would the structural strength of the stand be obvious to a non-carpenter?  How is it built and from what?  Are the supports even visible? BTW, leaking water could very well have damaged the structural integrity of the stand if it is made of some kind of formed wood products. It is made of some sort of hardwood with a veneer.

This is extremely unlikely, unless it is more than 40 years old. Virtually everything with a veneer made in recent times is either plywood or some sort of pressboard (formed wood product). Most people willing to pay for solid wood (as vs. a manufactured wood product) are willing to pay the small premium for FINISHABLE solid wood (i.e., no veneer required). All manufactured wood products are subject to internal damage caused by waterlogging. Water causes the wood fibres to swell, which breaks the glue bonds that hold the manufactured product together and give it strength. Even when the water is no longer present, the glue bonds are still broken. In the worst case (pressboard or sawdust-board, as I call it), the whole thing crumbles to sawdust at the merest touch of the tip of a screwdriver. I’ve seen the same thing happen to OSB, though it usually holds together and merely becomes spongy and flexible rather than crumbling into sawdust. In the best case (a good quality plywood), only a layer or two will delaminate. Usually it’s a layer on the top of the sheet, but this very much depends upon the pattern of the water flows, and whether the top of the sheet was protected by a water-resistent veneer or coating. I’ve seen water run along the bottom of a sheet of plywood (due to a leaking roof vent) where it destroyed that sheet of plywood from the bottom. Now, the structural implications depend upon the cabinet and its supports. Plywood in particular is an extremely strong structural material. They’ve built fighter planes out of the stuff (don’t laugh, the famous WWII-era Mosquito was made of plywood). A typical “box” type platform made of plywood would have the plywood providing the majority of the load-bearing strength — the small “supports” at the corners exist primarily as a connection method for nailing the plywood together into a box, and do not themselves carry a significant load. But without having a picture of this cabinetry, we have no idea what the issues are here. A good carpenter, on the other hand, definitely would. I can understand that leaking water can cause damage, but there is no visible water damage.

If the cabinet has a veneer, the delamination would most likely be hidden on the inside of this. Are there bubbles in the veneer? I do not know if that means that there is no water damage. I would think the two would highly correlate.

Yes and no. I’ve seen pressboard that looked fine — until I punched my screwdriver at it and my screwdriver went right through, rather than bounce off like with structurally intact pressboard. If it’s no longer wet, water damage may be visible only as some mild staining around the fringes of the damaged area, or only from the bottom (non-visible) side. —        GnuPG public key at http://badtux.org/eric/eric.gpg            BadTux News Links  http://badtux.org

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – lets see…it was your request for the 40 gallon, instead of replacing with a “like” 30 gallon…now its buckling from the weight and the fact you admit the “old water leaked was leaking a bit” and had an effect on the cabinet…dang, im glad im choosy about my clients… Well, the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect on the cabinet. That was just the explanation the installer gave. It seemed reasonable at the time, but later on proved to be incorrect. As far as my request, I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one. I think it’s funny that you say you are choosy about your clients. You wouldn’t know what we are like until after the fact, no? I’d like to say the same about the contractors that I hire, but the fact is that (even with a recommendation) one doesn’t know until after the fact. I am perfectly willing to be reasonable. I am not demanding anything from the plumber just yet. I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again). Don’t be so defensive. Dimitri

Seems that, in this situation, the customer and the plumber might have anticipated that the cabinet was damaged by the previous leak.  Unusual sounding installation, to be on the platform rather than floor.  Ennyhoo, only liability I can see (not a plumber) is possibly if the install does not comply with mfg. recommendations and code.  I’m not a lawyer, either.  Probably easier in the long run to get it done right.  If not in compliance with mfg. install recommendations, try writing a letter.  Still,  with an old leak inside the cabinet I’m wondering what you expected.

Response:

Would the structural strength of the stand be obvious to a non-carpenter?  How is it built and from what?  Are the supports even visible?

I don’t know. I’m a non-carpenter and I don’t have a clue. The supports are visible, but he never looked at them. (This I know, because a panel has to be removed to see underneath and it never was.) BTW, leaking water could very well have damaged the structural integrity of the stand if it is made of some kind of formed wood products.

It is made of some sort of hardwood with a veneer. I can understand that leaking water can cause damage, but there is no visible water damage. I do not know if that means that there is no water damage. I would think the two would highly correlate. Dimitri

Response:

….. Do I really need to have an engineer on hand to certify that the joists will support the weight in such a case?

If you want someone else to be responsible, yes.  Otherwise YOU are the owner and the owner is ultimately responsible.  Otherwise you’ll just have a pissing contest in court as to if the HVAC guy, who is NOT a structural engineer, “should have known” that where YOU said to put the unit was inadequate. In that case, why didn’t you know too? Is that engineer then liable if the joists give?

Yes, that is what professional liability is all about.  That is why you pay $100 or more per hour for the advice, because the engineer is liable for the consequences of it. -v.

Response:

You knew the old heater was leaking “for a bit”.  The plumber didn’t have enough time to get the cabinet wet and wait for it to warp, unless the job took him a few days.  It sure sounds like the old leaking heater weakened the laminate and you just noticed it the day the plumber was there.  It takes a while for wood to start falling apart, and for the finish to start warping. Ask the finish carpenter for his honest opinion of what happened. Besides all that, I would hope that even I as a “handyman” would have noticed, and told you, that the old water damaged cabinet wouldn’t hold the weight for long.  But I don’t know if you can hold him responsible for telling you that.  And certainly not for the fact that is falling apart. — Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had a company come out and install a new water heater into an existing enclosure. The old water heater was 30 gallons. I asked if it would be possible to install a 40 gallon heater instead. They said that the installer would take a look to see if it was possible, and that he carried both sizes on his truck. When the installer came out, he said that a 40 gallon wouldn’t be a problem. He began installing the new water heater. I was in and out of the area, so I kept an eye on what he was doing but I wasn’t watching intently. When I went back into the room after the tank began to fill, I noticed the finish on my cabinet was warping. I couldn’t remember if it had been like that previously that day (it had NOT been like that in the recent past). I asked the installer about it and he said that it was probably caused by moisture (the old water heater was leaking a bit). That sounded reasonable. Although I was unhappy with having to get it refinished, shit happens. Well, he completed the installation and everything was working fine. I paid him and he left. When I came home from work that night, I found that the cabinet was worse. It was obvious that it was not moisture, but that the cabinet had started buckling. I shut off the water and drained the water heater. I called the company and they said that they can move the water heater outside (there is an enclosure for a defunct solar water heater). This wouldn’t be free. Or, they said that they can uninstall the water heater and reinstall it for free after I have the cabinet reinforced by a carpenter (I pay for the carpenter). To get to the point (finally), regardless of the outcome of the water heater installation itself are they liable for the damages to my cabinetry? A finish carpenter has given me a quote of $500-600 to repair the damage. I feel like I shouldn’t have to pay that fee, or at least not all of it. What would be reasonable and customary in this sort of situation? I wish to be fair to all parties involved and I am not looking for a free ride. However, neither do I wish to easily part with my hard-earned money if I shouldn’t have to. Any advice is appreciated. Dimitri

Response:

It takes a while for wood to warp.

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had a company come out and install a new water heater into an existing enclosure. The old water heater was 30 gallons. I asked if it would be possible to install a 40 gallon heater instead. They said that the installer would take a look to see if it was possible, and that he carried both sizes on his truck. When the installer came out, he said that a 40 gallon wouldn’t be a problem. He began installing the new water heater. I was in and out of the area, so I kept an eye on what he was doing but I wasn’t watching intently. When I went back into the room after the tank began to fill, I noticed the finish on my cabinet was warping. I couldn’t remember if it had been like that previously that day (it had NOT been like that in the recent past). I asked the installer about it and he said that it was probably caused by moisture (the old water heater was leaking a bit). That sounded reasonable. Although I was unhappy with having to get it refinished, shit happens. Well, he completed the installation and everything was working fine. I paid him and he left. When I came home from work that night, I found that the cabinet was worse. It was obvious that it was not moisture, but that the cabinet had started buckling. I shut off the water and drained the water heater. I called the company and they said that they can move the water heater outside (there is an enclosure for a defunct solar water heater). This wouldn’t be free. Or, they said that they can uninstall the water heater and reinstall it for free after I have the cabinet reinforced by a carpenter (I pay for the carpenter). To get to the point (finally), regardless of the outcome of the water heater installation itself are they liable for the damages to my cabinetry? A finish carpenter has given me a quote of $500-600 to repair the damage. I feel like I shouldn’t have to pay that fee, or at least not all of it. What would be reasonable and customary in this sort of situation? I wish to be fair to all parties involved and I am not looking for a free ride. However, neither do I wish to easily part with my hard-earned money if I shouldn’t have to. Any advice is appreciated. Dimitri

Response:

It takes a while for wood to warp.

Understood. In this case the wood is buckling under the weight. Who is liable to make that repair? I paid a professional to properly size and install the water heater so that it would be done without these sorts of problems. Dimitri

Response:

I had a company come out and install a new water heater into an existing enclosure. The old water heater was 30 gallons. I asked if it would be possible to install a 40 gallon heater instead. They said that the installer would take a look to see if it was possible, and that he carried both sizes on his truck.

Some more details, please… Just where is this heater installed, and exactly what is buckling? The more detail you can provide, the better able folks will be to answer your question. —–=  Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News  =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!  Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers!  ==—–

Response:

I can’t see your problem from here, but from your description, it does not sound like the plumbers fault.

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It takes a while for wood to warp. Understood. In this case the wood is buckling under the weight. Who is liable to make that repair? I paid a professional to properly size and install the water heater so that it would be done without these sorts of problems. Dimitri

Response:

Some more details, please… Just where is this heater installed, and exactly what is buckling? The more detail you can provide, the better able folks will be to answer your question.

It is installed in the kitchen in an enclosure made especially for it. It is not resting on the floor, but on a platform. The left side of the enclosure is buckling and the water heater is no longer level with the floor (tilts slightly to one side). The buckling is occuring at the bottom near the floor and also at the place where the platform joins the side of the enclosure. Dimitri

Response:

I can’t see your problem from here, but from your description, it does not sound like the plumbers fault.

The question is if the plumber is responsible for: a) Proper sizing b) Identifying a minor problem before it becomes/became a major one. What    if the whole thing had collapsed? I am not saying that these are necessarily the plumber’s responsibilities, but I am not saying that they are not either. That is why I am asking. Dimitri

Response:

lets see…it was your request for the 40 gallon, instead of replacing with a “like” 30 gallon…now its buckling from the weight and the fact you admit the “old water leaked was leaking a bit” and had an effect on the cabinet…dang, im glad im choosy about my clients… Roofguy

I had a company come out and install a new water heater into an existing enclosure. The old water heater was 30 gallons. I asked if it would be possible to install a 40 gallon heater instead. They said that the installer would take a look to see if it was possible, and that he carried both sizes on his truck. When the installer came out, he said that a 40 gallon wouldn’t be a problem. He began installing the new water heater. I was in and out of the area, so I kept an eye on what he was doing but I wasn’t watching intently. When I went back into the room after the tank began to fill, I noticed the finish on my cabinet was warping. I couldn’t remember if it had been like that previously that day (it had NOT been like that in the recent past). I asked the installer about it and he said that it was probably caused by moisture (the old water heater was leaking a bit). That sounded reasonable. Although I was unhappy with having to get it refinished, shit happens. Well, he completed the installation and everything was working fine. I paid him and he left. When I came home from work that night, I found that the cabinet was worse. It was obvious that it was not moisture, but that the cabinet had started buckling. I shut off the water and drained the water heater. I called the company and they said that they can move the water heater outside (there is an enclosure for a defunct solar water heater). This wouldn’t be free. Or, they said that they can uninstall the water heater and reinstall it for free after I have the cabinet reinforced by a carpenter (I pay for the carpenter). To get to the point (finally), regardless of the outcome of the water heater installation itself are they liable for the damages to my cabinetry? A finish carpenter has given me a quote of $500-600 to repair the damage. I feel like I shouldn’t have to pay that fee, or at least not all of it. What would be reasonable and customary in this sort of situation? I wish to be fair to all parties involved and I am not looking for a free ride. However, neither do I wish to easily part with my hard-earned money if I shouldn’t have to. Any advice is appreciated. Dimitri

Response:

lets see…it was your request for the 40 gallon, instead of replacing with a “like” 30 gallon…now its buckling from the weight and the fact you admit the “old water leaked was leaking a bit” and had an effect on the cabinet…dang, im glad im choosy about my clients…

Well, the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect on the cabinet. That was just the explanation the installer gave. It seemed reasonable at the time, but later on proved to be incorrect. As far as my request, I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one. I think it’s funny that you say you are choosy about your clients. You wouldn’t know what we are like until after the fact, no? I’d like to say the same about the contractors that I hire, but the fact is that (even with a recommendation) one doesn’t know until after the fact. I am perfectly willing to be reasonable. I am not demanding anything from the plumber just yet. I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again). Don’t be so defensive. Dimitri

Response:

Well, the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect on the cabinet.

Bullsh**. It’s obvious to me that the cabinet is delaminating and is collapsing because of water damage. The added weight of the 40 gallon tank only hastened the collapse, it did not cause it. The root cause is that the water-caused swelling of the layers of plywood that make up the structure of the cabinet has broken the glue bond between the layers (delamination), thus destroying the strength of the cabinet. This is a common type of water damage, and is why marine-grade plywood or OSB is generally required in modern installations of this type. reasonable at the time, but later on proved to be incorrect. As far as my request, I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one.

Note that a plumber is not a carpenter, and is not responsible for carpentry. He looked at the plumbing and cabinet size to see whether it could accomodate the 40 gallon tank, and it could. He does not have the expertise to evaluate carpentry-related matters. I am perfectly willing to be reasonable. I am not demanding anything from the plumber just yet. I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again). Don’t be so defensive.

It seems to me that you need to get a carpenter in there to rebuild this cabinet. It has been severely water damaged, and is going to collapse, whether it has a 40 gallon tank or 30 gallon tank sitting upon it. Whether this requires the plumber to come out and temporarily disconnect the tank or not depends upon the construction of the cabinet and of the hookups between tank and house. —        GnuPG public key at http://badtux.org/eric/eric.gpg            BadTux News Links  http://badtux.org

Response:

I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again).

Would the structural strength of the stand be obvious to a non-carpenter?  How is it built and from what?  Are the supports even visible? The difference in weight between a 30 and 40 gallon tank will be 80 pounds for the water (“a pint’s a pound the world around”) plus a bit (no more than 5-10 pounds I’d guess) for the larger tank.  30 gallons weighs 240 pounds alone.  I wouldn’t think that an extra 80-90 pounds would make a difference unless the structure was somwhat flimsy to begin with. BTW, leaking water could very well have damaged the structural integrity of the stand if it is made of some kind of formed wood products.

Response:

ok…you answered your own question…im sure he did NOT force you to take a 40 gal either…you remind me of that thread that was running about the window…you’re looking for someone to reinforce your beliefs…im not being defensive, just saying, i interview my clients, it doesnt take long for that…back to the subject, you answered your own question…why u jumping my rear because you havent seen an answer that you liked so far, is beyond me…i was going by what you had written, now you’re adding that the information you had posted wasnt correct, guess i should’ve figured that one too Roofguy

lets see…it was your request for the 40 gallon, instead of replacing with a “like” 30 gallon…now its buckling from the weight and the fact you admit the “old water leaked was leaking a bit” and had an effect on the cabinet…dang, im glad im choosy about my clients…

Well, the old water heater leaked BUT THAT DID NOT have an affect on the cabinet. That was just the explanation the installer gave. It seemed reasonable at the time, but later on proved to be incorrect. As far as my request, I asked if a larger water heater could be accomodated. I did not demand one. I think it’s funny that you say you are choosy about your clients. You wouldn’t know what we are like until after the fact, no? I’d like to say the same about the contractors that I hire, but the fact is that (even with a recommendation) one doesn’t know until after the fact. I am perfectly willing to be reasonable. I am not demanding anything from the plumber just yet. I just want to know what are reasonable and customary expectations to have from a plumber in this instance before opening up my wallet (again). Don’t be so defensive. Dimitri

Response:

Yeah, but you can’t expect this guy to compute the load bearing characteristics of your cabinetry.  A gallon of water weighs about 8.5 lbs, so the new heater added 85 lbs of extra water, plus maybe 15 pounds of tank weight.  You’re talking about 100lbs, not really a lot when it comes right down to it.  If this extra 100lbs caused your cabinet to buckle, you were at its limits before, and a new 30 gallon heater might’ve also been enough to cause the cabinet to buckle.

Of course, I can’t be sure what happened. Maybe the guy damaged it in some way. Like you say, 100 lbs isn’t really a lot. In fact, I’ve since had a carpenter look at it and he thinks it should’ve been fine based on the construction. Of course then that begs the question of whether the plumber should’ve suspected a problem to begin with then. On the other hand, the problem was pointed out to him and he deemed it cosmetic. Might the problem be that the water heater wasn’t leveled? I don’t really know. All I know is that it was fine before and not so fine afterwards. I am looking at it from the standpoint of what might’ve happened if this small problem had been a catastrophe. I feel like a relied on a professional’s advice that it was cosmetic damage when it was not. I realize he’s not a structural engineer, though, and that is why I am curious as to what exactly the potential liabilities are in situations such as these. Say, for example, that an air conditioning guy installs a unit in my attic and the joists give way under the weight. Do I really need to have an engineer on hand to certify that the joists will support the weight in such a case? What if I do? Is that engineer then liable if the joists give? Additionally, the $500ish quote you received sounds fairly outrageous, but I’m not sure what the work entailed.

Everything is outrageous. I’m sure if I asked a contractor to change a light bulb he’d charge me $200. Bottom line, this is part of the joys of home/condo ownership.  Not everything always works out perfectly, and you sometimes have to adapt as life goes on.

Perhaps. Thanks for the response. Dimitri

Response:

I had a company come out and install a new water heater into an existing enclosure. The old water heater was 30 gallons. I asked if it would be possible to install a 40 gallon heater instead. They said that the installer would take a look to see if it was possible, and that he carried both sizes on his truck. When the installer came out, he said that a 40 gallon wouldn’t be a problem. He began installing the new water heater. I was in and out of the area, so I kept an eye on what he was doing but I wasn’t watching intently. When I went back into the room after the tank began to fill, I noticed the finish on my cabinet was warping. I couldn’t remember if it had been like that previously that day (it had NOT been like that in the recent past). I asked the installer about it and he said that it was probably caused by moisture (the old water heater was leaking a bit). That sounded reasonable. Although I was unhappy with having to get it refinished, shit happens. Well, he completed the installation and everything was working fine. I paid him and he left. When I came home from work that night, I found that the cabinet was worse. It was obvious that it was not moisture, but that the cabinet had started buckling. I shut off the water and drained the water heater. I called the company and they said that they can move the water heater outside (there is an enclosure for a defunct solar water heater). This wouldn’t be free. Or, they said that they can uninstall the water heater and reinstall it for free after I have the cabinet reinforced by a carpenter (I pay for the carpenter). To get to the point (finally), regardless of the outcome of the water heater installation itself are they liable for the damages to my cabinetry? A finish carpenter has given me a quote of $500-600 to repair the damage. I feel like I shouldn’t have to pay that fee, or at least not all of it. What would be reasonable and customary in this sort of situation? I wish to be fair to all parties involved and I am not looking for a free ride. However, neither do I wish to easily part with my hard-earned money if I shouldn’t have to. Any advice is appreciated. Dimitri

Response:

Question:

solar water heater roof tank I live in rural Northern CA where natural gas is not available. Most of the folks use propane for heating but there are a lot of oil furnaces in use. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t think we can fuel oil here (I’m not even sure what it is… Where are you, that there is no fuel oil?  How do they sell propane in your area, do you have to take you tank to town, or do “they” come out with a bulk truck and refill it?  Usually, if the propane truck can get there, so can the oil truck. -v. Untaxed off road diesel fuel is dyed, gas is extreeemly safe, I have never seen fuel oil in use west of the Mississippi, someone else probably has, propane is all over the place tho, if the elactricity frequently is out as it is where I live then gas is preferable, gas prices can usually be locked in at low summertime rates,  my take on it, JTMcC.

Response:

Hi, all- I’m curious about the relative dangers of natural gas and propane compared to fuel oil and kerosene. Gas explosions seem to be rare, but devastating when they occur. Are fuel oil and kerosene safer?  How about in a water heater?

Gas kills 600 people a year, stairs 1000. I’m trying to decide on a fuel source for heating water in the house we’re building.  At this point I’m trying to steer clear of propane. I don’t think we can fuel oil here (I’m not even sure what it is.  Is it similar to diesel?).  I don’t think I’ve ever seen it for sale.  I know we can get kerosene, tho.

Kero is fuel oil, just 2 grades cleaner and is jet fuel. kickaha Whatever we pick will be a backup to a solar water heater. kickaha

solar water heater roof tank

Response:

| | Untaxed off road diesel fuel is dyed, gas is extreeemly safe, At a fire safety weekend at the local firehouse a fireman tried to ignite a flat pan of heating oil with a lit flare. The stuff would not ignite even when he stuck the flare directly into the oil. So much for the demonstration. Wonder what that stuff really was ? solar water heater roof tank

Response:

| Fuel oil has a good reputation but there is always the possibility | of environmental spills. Not to mention the noise of the oil burner unit itself , which in my house drowns out the TV set every time a thermostat calls for heat.

Response:

| | Untaxed off road diesel fuel is dyed, gas is extreeemly safe, At a fire safety weekend at the local firehouse a fireman tried to ignite a flat pan of heating oil with a lit flare. The stuff would not ignite even when he stuck the flare directly into the oil. So much for the demonstration. Wonder what that stuff really was ?

Heating oil is very safe since the entire pan of oil would have to be at over 190 degrees farenheit, for the oil to ignite. Safe but smells awful, so I use kero in my oil furnace. AJ Panda Cam http://www.sandiegozoo.org/special/pandas/pandacam/index.html

Response:

| | Untaxed off road diesel fuel is dyed, gas is extreeemly safe, At a fire safety weekend at the local firehouse a fireman tried to ignite a flat pan of heating oil with a lit flare. The stuff would not ignite even when he stuck the flare directly into the oil. So much for the demonstration. Wonder what that stuff really was ?

Response:

If you have a Pocket PC you might want to try using PocketAI to make your decision. It’s shareware and great for deciding all kind of things like that. You can weigh the benefit of your options by criteria that you choose, and see which answer is the best for you. http://www.3dnetproductions.com/pocketai BM – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all- I’m curious about the relative dangers of natural gas and propane compared to fuel oil and kerosene. Gas explosions seem to be rare, but devastating when they occur. Are fuel oil and kerosene safer?  How about in a water heater? Gas kills 600 people a year, stairs 1000. I’m trying to decide on a fuel source for heating water in the house we’re building.  At this point I’m trying to steer clear of propane. I don’t think we can fuel oil here (I’m not even sure what it is.  Is it similar to diesel?).  I don’t think I’ve ever seen it for sale.  I know we can get kerosene, tho. Kero is fuel oil, just 2 grades cleaner and is jet fuel. kickaha Whatever we pick will be a backup to a solar water heater. kickaha AJ Panda Cam solar water heater roof tank

Response:

I work for a utility company and and natural gas is 4 times cheaper than using electricity for ranges,water heaters, and dryers.  I use fuel oil for furnace which is much cheaper right now than natural or lp gas.  It burns clean and there is no smell.  You have to have a *pig* to hold your oil, and it’s good to have it inside so it doesn’t freeze.

Response:

At a fire safety weekend at the local firehouse a fireman tried to ignite a flat pan of heating oil with a lit flare. The stuff would not ignite even when he stuck the flare directly into the oil. So much for the demonstration. Wonder what that stuff really was ?

Heating oil, not much different from the stuff that fuels passenger jets. Hard to ignite. Mike

solar water heater roof tankvers! =—–

solar water heater roof tank

I believe NG is mostly ethane, but your point is still valid. Propane is slightly more dangerous, but neither is a big danger. Since you no longer have the option of natural gas, you will have to decide what your best option is from the other sources available.  If you already plan on a propane stove or oven, for example, it would make sense to go that route for hot water as well.  OTOH, if you use electricity for the stove, but have a diesel backup generator, fuel oil or diesel would be a good choice.  Likewise with kerosene space heaters…  You don’t need a plethora of fuels sitting around.

Sure, but Propane tends to be very expensive.  IIRC it’s about $1.50/gal around here.  Oil is about $1.00 (don’t have the latest numbers – switched to NG five years ago).  Given that .6Gal oil ~= 1gal propane, it’s a no-brainer.   We’ve had a domestic hot water coil in our furnace in the last two houses.  Both were oil-fired.  We’ve change this one to NG.   I rather like the domestic coil cine it gives unlimited hot water.  The furnace runs all summer, but it doesn’t tend to rust since it’s always warm. I wouldn’t use kero space heaters.  I’ve been there.  They *stink*.  Perhaps “monitor” style heaters, but most of them I’ve seen are gas. —-   Keith

Response:

NO! Natural gas (methane) is lighter than air, and rises/disperses when there’s a leak.  Propane is heavier than air, and sinks/pools when there is a leak.  While either one could potentially cause an explosion if there is a significant indoor leak, natural gas has the edge in overall safety. Since you no longer have the option of natural gas, you will have to decide what your best option is from the other sources available.  If you already plan on a propane stove or oven, for example, it would make sense to go that route for hot water as well.  OTOH, if you use electricity for the stove, but have a diesel backup generator, fuel oil or diesel would be a good choice.  Likewise with kerosene space heaters…  You don’t need a plethora of fuels sitting around. John Weiss Seattle, WA Remove NOSPAM from reply address – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The only gas available in the area is propane (no DSL or cable, either!).  I would guess safety-wise it is equivalent to city gas?…

Response:

I don’t think we can fuel oil here (I’m not even sure what it is… Where are you, that there is no fuel oil?

Louisiana, in my case. I could get propane, but if I’d mentioned the words “fuel oil”, people would have just looked at me funny. How do they sell propane in your area, do you have to take you tank to town, or do “they” come out with a bulk truck and refill it?  Usually, if the propane truck can get there, so can the oil truck.

solar water heater roof tank

I don’t think we can fuel oil here (I’m not even sure what it is…

Where are you, that there is no fuel oil?  How do they sell propane in your area, do you have to take you tank to town, or do “they” come out with a bulk truck and refill it?  Usually, if the propane truck can get there, so can the oil truck. -v.

Response:

I don’t think we can fuel oil here (I’m not even sure what it is… Where are you, that there is no fuel oil?  How do they sell propane in your area, do you have to take you tank to town, or do “they” come out with a bulk truck and refill it?  Usually, if the propane truck can get there, so can the oil truck. -v.

Untaxed off road diesel fuel is dyed, gas is extreeemly safe, I have never seen fuel oil in use west of the Mississippi, someone else probably has, propane is all over the place tho, if the elactricity frequently is out as it is where I live then gas is preferable, gas prices can usually be locked in at low summertime rates,  my take on it, JTMcC.

Response:

Hi, all- I’m curious about the relative dangers of natural gas and propane compared to fuel oil and kerosene. Gas explosions seem to be rare, but devastating when they occur.

In the cases of the most devastating situations it would have made little difference whether or not you were using gas for your heat/hot water – i.e. the one in Edison, NJ that took out several buildings in adjacent apartment complexes! Are fuel oil and kerosene safer?  How about in a water heater? I’m trying to decide on a fuel source for heating water in the house we’re building.  At this point I’m trying to steer clear of propane. I don’t think we can fuel oil here (I’m not even sure what it is.  Is it similar to diesel?).  I don’t think I’ve ever seen it for sale.  I know we can get kerosene, tho.

It is the same essentially as diesel, but doesn’t contain the dye that is used to identify diesel that is taxed for on road use.  I know of several people who have had autos with diesel engines who fueled them with heating oil and encountered no problems – this is particularly true in areas where there are no additives used in the heating oil. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kickaha Whatever we pick will be a backup to a solar water heater. kickaha

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, all- I’m curious about the relative dangers of natural gas and propane compared to fuel oil and kerosene. Gas explosions seem to be rare, but devastating when they occur. Are fuel oil and kerosene safer?  How about in a water heater? I’m trying to decide on a fuel source for heating water in the house we’re building.  At this point I’m trying to steer clear of propane. I don’t think we can fuel oil here (I’m not even sure what it is.  Is it similar to diesel?).  I don’t think I’ve ever seen it for sale.  I know we can get kerosene, tho. kickaha Whatever we pick will be a backup to a solar water heater. kickaha

If you have natural gas service in the area, that would be the choice.  Gas appliances (like water heaters) are well-protected against fire/explosion.  The explosions you read about are almost always caused by piping leaks. First cost for running the gas service line may be higher than other choices.  Ask the gas co. if they will make a connect for just a water heater. Fuel oil has a good reputation but there is always the possibility of environmental spills.  Kero is not as safe as oil. Jim

Response:

Hi, all- I’m curious about the relative dangers of natural gas and propane compared to fuel oil and kerosene. Gas explosions seem to be rare, but devastating when they occur. Are fuel oil and kerosene safer?  How about in a water heater? I’m trying to decide on a fuel source for heating water in the house we’re building.  At this point I’m trying to steer clear of propane. I don’t think we can fuel oil here (I’m not even sure what it is.  Is it similar to diesel?).  I don’t think I’ve ever seen it for sale.  I know we can get kerosene, tho. kickaha Whatever we pick will be a backup to a solar water heater. kickaha

Response:

#2 home heating fuel is nearly identical to diesel.  I’m uninformed about oil-fired dedicated domestic hot water heaters.  An oil-fired boiler producing hot water (or steam for that matter) can have a zone for heating an insulated domestic hotwater storage tank.  I’m guessing that your primary environmental heat plant will be solar as well?  In that case, an electric water heater would be the safest/cheapest backup for the solar.  The same probably is true if you’re putting in a warm-air furnace.  The boiler might make sense in your home if the zoning/distribution can be used by the solar heat loop as well, or if you’re solar heating potential is marginal. $.02 Eric

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi,solar water heater roof tank all- I’m curious about the relative dangers of natural gas and propane compared to fuel oil and kerosene. Gas explosions seem to be rare, but devastating when they occur. Are fuel oil and kerosene safer?  How about in a water heater? I’m trying to decide on a fuel source for heating water in the house we’re building.  At this point I’m trying to steer clear of propane. I don’t think we can fuel oil here (I’m not even sure what it is.  Is it similar to diesel?).  I don’t think I’ve ever seen it for sale.  I know we can get kerosene, tho. kickaha Whatever we pick will be a backup to a solar water heater. solar water heater roof tank

Response:

Question:

I have to replace a gas water heater and need some opinions/ feedback from the group about best units out there.solar water heater roof tank  No info at all in Consumer Reports on water heaters. Avoiding the real lemons would neat. Local sources include Sears, Menards, Lowes.solar water heater roof tank

Response:

Depending upon where you live, I alway suggest to folks to get a solar water heater, comes in 80 and 120 gallon sizes (Rheem or Rhudd, two best you can get)solar water heater roof tank.  Since installing my solar system, I have never had to turn the electric backup ever.  The only electricity it uses is to drive the pump.   Another alternative (since you already have a gas hookup) is the tankless system (hot water on demand).  Only limitation is if you are a large hot water user this can be a pain at times.  I believe at this time (someone correct me if I am wrong) there is only one company that puts out this system.   As for your traditional water heater:  I have never had any serious problems with Sears water heaters and they seem to last their suggested lifetime.  The only brands I would avoid (and I am not even sure these come in gas) are: State Richmond GE People I know who have owned these brands have had nothing but problems.   Also it appears that the manufacturers constructed it so that you are not able to replace the anode rod.  In my opinon, replacing the anode rod every 3 – 5 years will extend the life of your tank beyond its expected lifetime.   I have to replace a gas water heater and need some opinions/ feedback from the group about best units out there. No info at all in Consumer Reports on water heaters. Avoiding the real lemons would neat. Local sources include Sears, Menards, Lowes.solar water heater roof tank

Response:

I just moved 4 months ago and was told by the home inspector that my water heater is 17 yrs. old, so I should probably plan on replacing it shortly. I had a plumber here doing some other work and had him take a look. The water heater is an A.O. Smith, and he said it is one of the best brands on the market and I could easily get another 5 years out of it. We have two bathrooms, and we can have both showers and the dishwasher all running at the same time and not run out of hot water. In my old house, we put in a water heater 2 yrs. ago (same size as in this house), and it was one of the cheaper models at Home Depot (someone told me there really was no difference for the price), and we ran out of hot water frequently and it took a long time to heat up. I have heard someone else mention A.O. Smith being good quality and will probably look for that brand in future. Good luck!solar water heater roof tank

I have to replace a gas water heater and need some opinions/ feedback from the group about best units out there. No info at all in Consumer Reports on water heaters. Avoiding the real lemons would neat. Local sources include Sears, Menards, Lowes. solar water heater roof tank

Response:

I have also been looking for a new water heater.  I am slowly converting the house to natural gas, one appliance at a time.  The tankless water heating systems caught my eye.  Two companies that I have been researching make units to service the whole house.  One is “Aquastar” the other is “Takagi”. The Aquastar is fitted with 1/2″ NPT water inlet and outlet connections, so supporting two hot water uses at once is unlikely.  The Takagi has 3/4″ water inlet and outlet and also make claims in their web site that it will support two hot water uses at once.  The price of the Takagi unit is about 4X  what you will pay for a tank model but it will last much longer and is much more energy efficient.

solar water heater roof tank I have to replace a gas water heater and need some opinions/ feedback from the group about best units out there. No info at all in Consumer Reports on water heaters. Avoiding the real lemons would neat. Local sources include Sears, Menards, Lowes. solar water heater roof tank

Response:

Do you have a furnace or a boiler… If you have a boiler, then the most efficient, and cheapest way to heat your water would be to install an indirect fired water heater.  Amtrol makes one called the Boilermate.  The boiler water is passed through a heat exchanger in the insulated exterior tank, which contains the household water.  I believe that a number of other companies make comparable models… solar water heater roof tank I have to replace a gas water heater and need some opinions/ feedback from the group about best units out there. No info at all in Consumer Reports on water heaters. Avoiding the real lemons would neat. Local sources include Sears, Menards, Lowes. solar water heater roof tank

Response:

Do you have a furnace or a boiler… If you have a boiler, then the most efficient, and cheapest way to heat your water would be to install an indirect fired water heater.  Amtrol makes one called the Boilermate.  The boiler water is passed through a heat exchanger in the insulated exterior tank, which contains the household water

I have a Amtrol 80 gallon Boilermate. I like the tank, it kind of looks like a small blue version of a H-Bomb. Anyway the only thing I’ve noticed and this has nothing to do with the boilermate is that when the oil burner on the Weil-Mclane lights off, it sounds like a Saturn 5 rocket on takeoff. Kind of noisey, but I’m told they all make a lot of noise when they light off.

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Go tankless! I have a boiler with the heat exchanger. The problem is that you must keep the boiler operational all year. During the summer, these units are not efficient at all and during the winter, the boiler has to be kept hotter than necessary for house heating to compensate for the temperature drop caused by cycling boiler water thru frigid outside water. I had to operate my boiler at 160 degrees during the winter and 130 degrees during the summer just for hot water. I installed a second electric tankless heater and solved the  problem. First, the efficiencies of the systems are over 90%. My most recent acquisition is a flow and temperature controllable unit with a max output of 165 degrees at 2.5 gallons per minute, more than enough to operate the dishwasher, a shower and kitchen faucets concurrently. Under normal conditions I operate it at about 120 degrees at 2.5 GPM. During the winter, I operate it at a lower flow rate, and it has the ability to automatically adjust for incoming water temperature. There are several manufacturers of these devices. My first thankless unit was flow controlled only, (it kicked on to a preset temperature when it detected flowing water) and was a constant source of angst as it supplied only about 2 GPM at 110 degrees in the winter and couldn’t be used in series with my heat exchanger. Great advances have been made in this technology. The water heated by them can be used for cooking, which cannot be done with ‘tank’ systems. The heater is about the size of a textbook and can be mounted on a wall close to appliances and faucets, reducing the water bill too. The electric unit is instantaneous. I’m not sure about gas units. The payback for my second unit was less than a year in energy savings.solar water heater roof tank

solar water heater roof tank Do you have a furnace or a boiler… If you have a boiler, then the most efficient, and cheapest way to heat your water would be to install an indirect fired water heater.  Amtrol makes one called the Boilermate.  The boiler water is passed through a heat exchanger in the insulated exterior tank, which contains the household water.  I believe that a number of other companies make comparable models… I have to replace a gas water heater and need some opinions/ feedback from the group about best units out there. No info at all in Consumer Reports on water heaters. Avoiding the real lemons would neat. Local sources include Sears, Menards, Lowes.solar water heater roof tank

Response:

Question:

I recently completed my domestic solar water heater, and it is solar hot water heater tank working wonderful Solar Water Heat Tank Design.  Too good to be true, to be honest.  I have a 120 gallon tank, and 4 x 55 gallon barrels with oversized home-made heat exchangers.  Performance is exceptional, with my glycol only running about 15 degrees F hotter than the temperature at the top of the 120 gallon tank. solar water heater tank. What I am observing is that the BTUs that my system collects seem to be very different than the BTUs that the gas company sells me.  It seems that when my gas utility sells me a therm of gas, I sure don’t get 100,000 useful BTU’s from it.  Not even close.  Lets do the math… solar hot water heater tank My average summer usage is about 30 therms per month, before I installed my system.  This is based on 7 years of trend data of our consumption.  We have a gas water heater, a gas stove, and a gas drier.  The stove and the drier don’t get used that much in the summer.  Lets assume that 2/3 of the gas is to heat the water.  (Based on our usage, I think this is a conservative assumption.) 2/3 x 30 Therms = 20 Therms 20 Therms x 100,000 BTU/ Therm =2 Million BTUs 2 Million BTUs / 65 Degree F Temperature rise / 8 lb per gallon = 3846 gallons of hot water heated from 55 degrees to 120 degrees F per month. 3846 gallons / 30 days = 128 gallons per day OK, now there is no way we use anywhere close to 119 gallons per day, just my wife and I. solar water heater tank  Even if one assumes 60% efficiency for the water heater, this still is 77 gallons per day.  Additionally, when one draws small to moderate amounts of hot water, the water comes into solar hot water heater tank the gas heater at 70 degress, not 55.  That Solar Water Heat Tank Design makes the discrepancy even worse yet. So the question is… what is wrong with my calculations?  Does the pilot use that much gas?  Regarding the pilot in the gas water heater, solar water heater tank I was suprised to learn how much heat is given off.  Two Sundays ago, my solar tank temperature was 120 degrees, so I bypassed the gas heater and turned the gas valve to pilot.  No sun all week and by Friday, the temperature of the water coming out of my solar tank was down to 95, and my wife was complaining about the icicles coming out of the shower, so I turned on the water heater and switched the valves back to normal mode.  I was suprised to find that the water in the gas heater was still hot, with only the pilot running for 5 days! I have heard that a gas heater pilot uses about 500 BTU / hr.  Is this gas utility BTUs, or useful energy BTUs?  Maybe leaving the pilot on is a bad thing, especially when the sun can meet all of my needs.  Makes me wonder if there is a pilot in the drier too.  Just checked…  It has an electric glow plug that comes on to light the flame, and then turns off once the flame is lit.  Seems like a good design. What I seem to be concluding is that if one uses 30 Therms ( = 3 Million ‘gas company’ BTUs) of gas to heat your hot water per month, then one may only need a solar pre-heater to deliver about  500,000 – 700,000 BTU’s per month to do the equivalent amount of heating.  This may be one of the main reasons solar water heaters are such a good deal.. they deliver useful BTUs. Specifically, it seems that a ’solar therm’ is much larger and more useful than my gas company’s therm, solar water heater tank, by a factor of about 4 to 6. Any help or ideas here would be much appreciated.

Response: solar water heater tank

solar water heater tank.  More modern, more efficient water heaters do not use a pilot flame but rather spark or heating element ignition.

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -solar water heater tank.  I recently completed my Solar Water Heat Tank Design domestic solar water heater, and it is working wonderful.  Too good to be true, to be honest.  I have a 120 gallon tank, and 4 x 55 gallon barrels with oversized home-made heat exchangers.  Performance is exceptional, with my glycol only running about 15 degrees F hotter than the temperature at the top of the 120 gallon tank. What I am observing is that the BTUs that my system collects seem to be very different than the BTUs that the gas company sells me.  It seems that when my gas utility sells me a therm of gas, I sure don’t get 100,000 useful BTU’s from it.  Not even close.solar water heater tank.   Lets do the math… My average summer usage is about 30 therms per month, before I installed my system.  This is based on 7 years of trend data of our consumption.  We have a gas water heater, a gas stove, and a gas drier.  The stove and the drier don’t get used that much in the summer. solar water heater tank.   Lets assume that 2/3 of the gas is to heat the water.  (Based on our usage, I think this is a conservative assumption.) 2/3 x 30 Therms = 20 Therms 20 Therms x 100,000 BTU/ Therm =2 Million BTUs 2 Million BTUs / 65 Degree F Temperature rise / 8 lb per gallon = 3846 gallons of hot water heated from 55 degrees to 120 degrees F per month. 3846 gallons / 30 days = 128 gallons per day OK, now there is no way we use anywhere close to 119 gallons per day, just my wife and I.  Even if one assumes 60% efficiency for the water heater, this still is 77 gallons per day.  Additionally, when one draws small to moderate amounts of hot water, the water comes into the gas heater at 70 degress, not 55.  That makes the discrepancy even worse yet. So the question is… what is wrong with my calculations?  Does the pilot use that much gas?  Regarding the pilot in the gas water heater, I was suprised to learn how much heat is given off.  Two Sundays ago, my solar tank temperature was 120 degrees, so I bypassed the gas heater and turned the gas valve to pilot.  No sun all week and by Friday, the temperature of the water coming out of my solar tank was down to 95, and my wife was complaining about the icicles coming out of the shower, so I turned on the water heater and switched the valves back to normal mode.  I was suprised to find that the water in the gas heater was still hot, with only solar hot water heater tank the pilot running for 5 days! solar water heater tank.  I have heard that a gas heater pilot uses about 500 BTU / hr.  Is this gas utility BTUs, or useful energy BTUs?  Maybe leaving the pilot on is a bad thing, especially when the sun can meet all of my needs.  Makes me wonder if there is a pilot in the drier too.  Just checked…  It has an electric glow plug that comes on to light the flame, and then turns off once the flame is lit.  Seems like a good design. What I seem to be concluding is that if one uses 30 Therms ( = 3 Million ‘gas company’ BTUs) of gas to heat your hot water per month, then one may only need a solar pre-heater to deliver about  500,000 – 700,000 BTU’s per month to do the equivalent amount of heating.  This may be one of the main reasons solar water heaters are such a good deal.. they deliver useful BTUs. Specifically, it seems that a ’solar therm’ is much larger and more useful than my gas company’s therm, by a factor of about 4 to 6. Any help or ideas here would be much appreciated.

Response:

So the question is… what is wrong with my calculations? solar water heater tank

To begin with, you’ve assumed that the insulation on the system is “perfect”. Merely keeping stored water hot takes energy. Also, a rather small leak  (if you have any) in any hot water appliance (or hidden run of piping) will slurp a good deal over the course of a month. Hot water pipes add considerably to the area available for heat to leave the hot water heater. Thermosyponing in the pipes can add greatly to that. How old is your hot water heater? Gas appliances tend to last a long time – in terms of greater efficiency, sometimes too long. — Cats, coffee, chocolate…vices to live by

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Ecnerwal Hot water pipes add considerably to the area available for heat to leave the hot water heater. Thermosyponing in the pipes can add greatly to that. solar water heater tank

Did you mean “reduce” instead of “add to”? Christian

Response:

Ecnerwal Hot water pipes add considerably to the area available for heat to leave the hot water heater. Thermosyponing in the pipes solar hot water heater tank can add greatly to that. Did you mean “reduce” instead of “add to”? Christian

No. Given stored hot water and a set of pipes, thermosyponing in the pipes can add greatly to the heat loss from the storage – water in the pipe cools, sinks back into the tank, and is replaced by hot water from the storage tank. More modern tank setups often include either a check valve or a loop/dip in the pipe to try and stop or reduce this. Thermosyponing does not imply a solar collector in this case. It’s simply the tendency of warm water to rise and cool water to sink, which results in solar hot water heater tank heat moving upwards. While it can be used in a collector loop from solar panels or fuel stoves if they are located below the storage tank, in this case I’m discussing it as an effect which increases the cooling rate (or heat loss, or required heat input to maintain an elevated temperature) of a stored tank of hot water to the general envrionment. — Cats, coffee, chocolate…vices to live by. solar water heater tank

Response:

solar water heater tank. My hot water heater was just replaced last year.  I had been hoping it would hold out a bit longer so I would have money to buy a tankless heater, but that didn’t work out quite the way I wanted. My water system is tight as a drum, and the hot water pipes are super-insulated.  My gas tank has extra insulation around it too.  I have a tempering valve located at the bottom of a drop loop beside the hot water heater to minimize thermal syphoning. I think most of you are missing my main point here.  If my hot water system is so leaky and inefficient, then my solar collector system isn’t going to work very well either.  My main point solar hot water heater tank is that the 100,000 BTU that the gas company says is in every Therm they sell me is balderdash!  Even if one factors in reasonable inefficiencies for the gas water heater, I think I’m onl getting about 20 – 30 KBTU of useful heat from the 100 K BTU that I buy. If this is really true (and I hoping the best brains out there can help me figure this out), then calculations for required solar based system performance must not be based on therms used from the gas company. solar water heater tank. For example: I would like to build a shop out at the edge of my field, and put a big, deep solar cistern underneath to store heat from spring summer and fall, solar hot water heater tank for winter use.  If I make it big enough, and if all the heat doesn’t leak out, I think I can heat the shop and a good part of my house.  I know that we use about 1000 Therms of gas per year to heat the house.  If I use this 1000 therms as the basis of how much heat I have to deliver from my solar cistern, I would end up with a system probable substantially oversized.  The reason being is that the 1000 therms I buy from the gas company doesn’t give me anywhere close to 1000 x 100,000 useful BTU’s of heat. Enough raving for now.  Has anybody else noticed this (big??) discrepancy between the 100,000 BTUs claimed to be in a therm, and how much useful heat one really gets.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I recently completed my domestic solar water heater, and it is working wonderful.  Too good to be true, to be honest.  I have a 120 gallon tank, and 4 x 55 gallon barrels with oversized home-made heat exchangers.  Performance is exceptional, with my glycol only running about 15 degrees F hotter than the temperature at the top of the 120 gallon tank. What I am observing is that the BTUs that my system collects seem to be very different than the BTUs that the gas company sells me. solar water heater tank solar hot water heater tank  It seems that when my gas utility sells me a therm of gas, I sure don’t get 100,000 useful BTU’s from it.  Not even close.  Lets do the math… My average summer usage is about 30 therms per month, before I installed my system.  This is based on 7 years of trend data of our consumption.  We have a gas water heater, a gas stove, and a gas drier. The stove and the drier don’t get used that much in the summer.  Lets assume that 2/3 of the gas is to heat the water.  (Based on our usage, I think this is a conservative assumption.)

Actually, one site I found suggests that the average clothes dryer by itself uses about 8 therms a month. http://www.sjindustries.com/sjg/switch/fuel.html And cooking is another 2 therms, so your estimate of 10 therms a month for those items is pretty much right on the target. 2/3 x 30 Therms = 20 Therms 20 Therms x 100,000 BTU/ Therm =2 Million BTUs 2 Million BTUs / 65 Degree F Temperature rise / 8 lb per gallon = 3846 gallons of hot water heated from 55 degrees to 120 degrees F per month. 3846 gallons / 30 days = 128 gallons per day OK, now there is no way we use anywhere close to 119 gallons per day, just my wife and I.  Even if one assumes 60% efficiency for the water heater, this still is 77 gallons per day.

Well, if you both each take a 20 minute shower, with a low-flow shower head, that alone could be 80 gallons solar hot water heater tank per day. solar water heater tank  If you let the water run into the tub for two minutes prior to turning on the shower head (to get the water warm), you could have wasted another 10 gallons (the tub flow is much higher than shower-head flow). The shower can use a lot more water/heat than folks realize.  And all that energy goes right down the drain. Literally!!!  That’s one reason I installed a GFX heat-exchanger in my home, to recover some of that energy. Doing a load of laundry can also use some hot water (although there is seldom a reason to use anything but ‘cold/cold’ setting on a washing machine).  One load might use about 40 gallons of water depending on the size of the washing machine.  If that’s ‘warm’ water (both the hot and cold taps open at the same time), that’s about 20 gallons of DHW for every load. Additionally, when one draws small to moderate amounts of hot water, the water comes into the gas heater at 70 degress, not 55.  That makes the discrepancy even worse yet.

Not really.  After all, when you draw off only a small amount of hot water (say to fill the kitchen sink to wash dishes), you or your wife probably let the water run for several seconds until the water actually gets hot.  By the time the water from the tank reaches your faucet, the water from the main/well has reached the tank.  So it pretty much evens out. So the question is… what is wrong with my calculations?  Does the solar hot water heater tank pilot use that much gas?  Regarding the pilot in the gas water heater, I was suprised to learn how much heat is given off.  Two Sundays ago, my solar tank temperature was 120 degrees, so I bypassed the gas heater and turned the gas valve to pilot.  No sun all week and by Friday, the temperature of the water coming out of my solar tank was down to 95, and my wife was complaining about the icicles coming out of the shower, so I turned on the water heater and switched the valves back to normal mode.  I was suprised to find that the water in the gas heater was still hot, with only the pilot running for 5 days!

Well that’s a testament to both the energy of the pilot, and the insulation on the tank.  My tank also can stay quite warm for a couple of days with no problem. I have heard that a gas heater pilot solar hot water heater tank uses about 500 BTU / hr.  Is this gas utility BTUs, or useful energy BTUs?

You’re just being silly, A BTU is a BTU.  There are a few *tiny* variations between the ‘international’, ‘British’, and other definitions of the unit, but that’s like in the third or forth decimal place.  The utility meters gas in CCF and converts that to Therms based on the energy content of the fuel. The energy content is right around 1054 BTU/ft^3, so 1 CCF (100 ft^3) is about 1.054 therms.  The ‘fuel adjustment factor’ varies slightly from that of pure methane.  It can be found on your gas bill. Don’t dry any clothes or use the gas range/oven for a day or two, and check the gas meter reading before/after.  See how many ft^3 of gas your HW heater uses.  Or turn your HW heater to just ‘pilot’ and monitor the gas meter for a couple of days.  That will tell you how much your range/dryer and pilot light use. Maybe leaving the pilot on is a bad thing, especially when the sun can meet all of my needs.

Well that’s certainly true. Makes me wonder if there is a pilot in the drier too.  Just checked…  It has an electric glow plug that comes on to light the flame, and then turns off once the flame is lit.  Seems like a good design. What I seem to be concluding is that if one uses 30 Therms ( = 3 Million ‘gas company’ BTUs) of gas to heat your hot water per month, then one may only need a solar pre-heater to deliver about  500,000 – 700,000 BTU’s per month to do the equivalent amount of heating.  This may be one of the main reasons solar water heaters are such a good deal.. they deliver useful BTUs.

Pretty faulty conclusions.  If two folks each take one 20 minute shower a day, with 4 gpm flow (instead of a low flow shower head) at 100 F with 55F inlet water, then you use 160 gallons * 45 F * 8.33 BTU/F-gal * 30 days = 18 therms just for showering. Of course, I don’t want to get too personal about your family’s habits, but do you shower every day (we don’t)?  Do you have a low-flow shower-head? Try those experiments solar hot water heater tank reading the gas meter for a few days.  Check with the missus to see how she has the temperature set on the laundry.  Get a bucket of a known size (I use a 3 gallon one) and measure the flow on the tub spigot and the showerhead. How does your family wash dishes?  I used to nag the wife to not let the hot-water running continuously while she’s washing dishes.  In the interest of harmony and energy savings, I find myself washing the dishes a lot these days daestrom

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My hot water heater was just replaced last year.  I had been hoping it would hold out a bit longer so I would have money to buy a tankless heater, but that didn’t work out quite the way I wanted. My water system is tight as a drum, and the hot water pipes are super-insulated.  My gas tank has extra insulation around it too.  I have a tempering valve located at the bottom of a drop loop beside the hot water heater to minimize thermal syphoning. I think most of you are missing my main point here.  If my hot water system is so leaky and inefficient, then my solar collector system isn’t going to work very well either.  My main point is that the 100,000 BTU that the gas company says is in every Therm they sell me is balderdash!  Even if one factors in reasonable solar hot water heater tank inefficiencies for the gas water heater, I think I’m onl getting about 20 – 30 KBTU of useful heat from the 100 K BTU that I buy. If this is really true (and I hoping the best brains out there can help me figure this out), then calculations for required solar based system performance must not be based on therms used from the gas company. For example: I would like to build a shop out at the edge of my field, and put a big, deep solar cistern underneath to store heat from spring summer and fall, for winter use.  If I make it big enough, and if all the heat doesn’t leak out, I think I can heat the shop and a good part of my house.  I know that we use about 1000 Therms of gas per year to heat the house.  If I use this 1000 therms as the basis of how much heat I have to deliver from my solar cistern, I would end up with a system probable substantially oversized.  The reason being is that the 1000 therms I buy from the gas company doesn’t give me anywhere close to 1000 x 100,000 useful BTU’s of heat. Enough raving for now.  Has anybody else noticed this (big??) discrepancy between the 100,000 BTUs claimed to be in a therm, and how much useful heat one really gets.

Sorry, no.  My gas company’s ‘therm’ is pretty much right what I expect. I’ve done complete thermal model of my home and energy usage and the predictions of my model are not far from the gas/electric usage.  I did have to make a couple of assumptions about air-changes per hour, but the numbers I used were just slightly less than the ‘average home’ numbers. From solar hot water heater tank this model, over the years, I’ve been able to predict the energy savings of several conservation projects.  When I adjust the outdoor temperature based on the actual weather conditions recorded by NOAA, I get pretty good results except for the spring/fall transition month between fully-closed-up heating and “windows open during the day” weather.  Doing a ‘post winter’ analysis using NOAA recorded conditions, I account for ‘mild’ and ‘harsh’ variations in winter weather. Over the last five years of doing this, I’ve been able to maintain a downward trend in Therm/degree-day heating by performing one or more conservation projects each year. Considering the number of complaints filed with state agencies regarding utilities, I would be very much surprised if the number of BTU in each CCF of gas isn’t very close to exact.  According to this site… http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/topwater.htm A typical gas water heater is only about 60% to 65% efficient. I think your system just needs some more analysis to find the culprit(s). You mentioned pilot flame in another post.  Another issue with gas heaters is how the flue is run.  If you have a natural draft chimney, wait until the heater’s been off for a couple of hours and put your hand on the metal exhaust duct right above the tank.  Natural draft gas solar hot water heater tank heaters will have a constant draft through the heater year round.  This draft *cools* the water in between firings.  Power-vented units that exhaust out the side of the house are less susceptible. Is your water well supplied, or municipal?  The reason I ask is I’m on city water and I’ve noticed the supply temperature is *not* the same year round. Although the water mains are deep enough that you would think ground temperature rules, and is constant, in my case at least, that doesn’t happen.  My summer time water supply is 65F and winter time it is as low as 40F.  Obviously, the inlet temperature will have an affect on your calculations. daestrom

Response:

Have you insulated your chimney too and does any hot air still come out of it? You will have to start using more hot water and have less “standby time” to get more effciency from your “Therm” BTW: My natural gas company has never heard of, or used the term “Therm”. The maintenance guys and the billing department were all consulted.

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My hot water heater was just replaced last year.  I had been hoping solar hot water heater tank it would hold out a bit longer so I would have money to buy a tankless heater, but that didn’t work out quite the way I wanted. My water system is tight as a drum, and the hot water pipes are super-insulated.  My gas tank has extra insulation around it too.  I have a tempering valve located at the bottom of a drop loop beside the hot water heater to minimize thermal syphoning. I think most of you are missing my main point here.  If my hot water system is so leaky and inefficient, then my solar collector system isn’t going to work very well either.  My main point is that the 100,000 BTU that the gas company says is in every Therm they sell me is balderdash!  Even if one factors in reasonable inefficiencies for the gas water heater, I think I’m onl getting about 20 – 30 KBTU of useful heat from the 100 K BTU that I buy. If this is really true (and I hoping the best brains out there can help me figure this out), then calculations for required solar based system performance must not be based on therms used from the gas company. For example: I would like to build a shop out at the edge of my field, and put a big, deep solar cistern underneath to store heat from spring summer and fall, for winter use.  If I make it big enough, and if all the heat doesn’t leak out, I think I can heat the shop and a good part of my house.  I know that solar hot water heater tank we use about 1000 Therms of gas per year to heat the house.  If I use this 1000 therms as the basis of how much heat I have to deliver from my solar cistern, I would end up with a system probable substantially oversized.  The reason being is that the 1000 therms I buy from the gas company doesn’t give me anywhere close to 1000 x 100,000 useful BTU’s of heat. Enough raving for now.  Has anybody else noticed this (big??) discrepancy between the 100,000 BTUs claimed to be in a therm, and how much useful heat one really gets. Steve

Response:

Thanks for all of the replies.  I shall attempt solar hot water heater tank to answer the questions: We have our own well.  The water temperature is consistently about 55

Question:

Would the filling of a tank volume with low solar stock tank water heaters density foam, sponge type, help to reduce thermal losses ?

Response:solar water heater tank

| Would the filling of a tank volume with low density foam, sponge | type, help to reduce thermal losses ? It would help a little – but probably not significantly. Surrounding the tank with insulation would probably be the most cost-effective loss reducer. — solar stock tank water heaters Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html solar water heater tank

Response:

solar water heater tank. What do you mean? Prohibit circulation? Then how do you want to get the heat in the tank? Christian

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Would the filling of a tank volume with low density foam, sponge type, help to reduce thermal losses ?

Response:

What do you mean? Prohibit circulation?

Yes   Then how do you want to get the heat in the tank?

from heat exchanger ? solar stock tank water heaters Would the filling of a tank volume with low density foam, sponge type, help to reduce thermal losses ? solar water heater tank

Response:

solar water heater tank. Well the heat exchanger needs circulation to get the heat inside the tank… heat does not diffuse very well without circulation (that’s why insulation works – very small gas bubbles with few – the less the better – circulation). Much easier and cheaper anyway if you put the tank in external insulation – the more the better, solar stock tank water heaters as Morris also said. Christian

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What do you mean? Prohibit circulation?  solar water heater tank.  Yes  Then how do you want to get the heat in the tank?   from heat exchanger ? Christian Would the filling of a tank volume with low density foam, sponge type, help to reduce thermal losses ?

Response:

Personally suggestion, a PU solar stock tank water heaters  form might be good. Just like the form in refrigerater. Others not working very well. I use it in my solar water heater tank. solar water heater tank

Response:

In Australia I am part of a large solar stock tank water heaters manufacturer of hot water tanks, we have had to meet a minimum heat loss standard recently. I would suggest the easiest product to use would be spray on foam, you know the expandable foam that you can buy in a pressure pack. It won’t look too good but will work very well in a minimal amount of time. solar water heater tank.  I’d make sure it is non flammable foam also for obvious reasons   if you need solar stock tank water heaters.

Question:

orsolar hot water heater tank    I can wait until you find the time though.  Thanks, Jim www.deja.com archives old postings… — thanks dave pierson |the facts, as accurately as i can manage, Smart Modular Technology  |the opinions, my own. 334 South St | “He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing.”  A J Raffles “Internet: net of a million lies…” after Vernor Vinge

Response:

After 2/3 fills, the pressure stabilized around 12 psi ( alas, the small pump does not reach the desired 15 psi)

One way to cheat this (if you have an air bladder expansion tank in the antifreeze side) is to lower the pressure in the bladder while filling, and then increase the bladder pressure once the system is filled and closed. solar hot water heater tank

Response:

inverted. There is no air bladder, only an air pocket. Hmmmm… this might be the source of the disolved air. Perhaps it goes into solution at high temperature (from the tanks), and out at low temperature (in all places).

As far as I know dissolved gas behavior, it would be the opposite: into solution at low temperature, out of solution at high temperature. Which is why warm soda-pop gushes, but cold it just fizzes. Non-bladder tanks would be the source of dissolved air (which is the major reason why bladder tanks are in common use these days).

Response:

not sure how to go back six months…..  :(      I can wait until you find the time though.  Thanks, Jim

www.deja.com archives old postings… — thanks dave pierson                    |the facts, as accurately as i can manage, Smart Modular Technology        |the opinions, my own. 334 South St                   solar hot water heater tank

Response:

solar hot water heater tank  I’ve collated a series of posts from “georges”, who described his solar hot water (SHW) system from the time he bought solar panels, how he calculated the water flow rate, the problems he had with air in the line and how he solved it with an expansion pressure tank, how he increased the efficiency of the system and was able to make his water hotter using a differential temperature controller. I know this is long, but it sounds like it is a common problem. Toby I’m setting up some solar thermal panels for home use ( three 3′x6′ panels). My understanding is that for the first few weeks the water will outgas air, and that this air can be a problem for the circulating pumps. I’m told there is a self regulating air purge valve that is used on hot water boilers ( which have similar problems). Can someone describe the valve and tell th its proper name so I can purchase it from a plumbing supply house Spirovent, a vertical cylinder of brass, vented at the top, with two opposing threaded connections at the bottom and a drain on the very bottom. Removes “microbubbles” via a stainless screen fabricated in a spiral fashion. Pricey, but just the ticket for your application. Good luck with the solar system…. Go to a hvac supply house that sells retail, and ask for a “number 67 auto air blead” they are very common for hydronic systems, and should cost you a whoping 10 bucks. They come with a 1/8 male pipe thread, so you may need to adapt as needed. good luck Beckman Just picked up the book (recommended by amckegne) , latest edition is 1991, and can be bought online ~$80 used . A great book if you need a solar thermal reference. I’m a little tired of the touchy feely new age solar books, and it was great to get my hands on a solid engineeering text. I’ve been sizing a pump for use with a residential solar hot water system. The first order of business is to match the pump to the pipe losses. The system has about 100 foot of 3/4″ pipe (3 foot H20 loss at 3 gpm). The Laing pump, operated at 12 volt DC , operates at this point. So, the flow rate will be about 3 gpm. The question is: how does this flow rate compare to the “typical” system. D&B note that US systems operate at 0.015 kg/s M^2, and low flow systems in Sweeden at 0.002 kg/s M^2. Note that this is the flow rate per unit area of solar panel A flow rate of 1 gpm is about 0.061 kg/s. I’ve got about 6 m^2 of solar panel surface area, so, at 1 gpm, the flow rate/unit area is ~ 0.01 kg/s M^2. This simple calculation shows that I’ve got the right order of magnitude for the flow rate/unit area. I was concerned that I’d have to order a larger pump. In fact, the calculation shows that the flow rate is a little on the high side. At 3 gpm the flow rate/unit area is about 0.03 kg/s M^2, about twice that of the “typical” US system. Beckman Yes, the Duffie & Beckman is an excellent text. It is used in many graduate mechanical engineering courses on solar energy. As far as what is the optimal flow for your system, you will need to determine this by simulation using methods presented in the text (or TRYNSIS). Be advised that the collector flow of many US DHW is too high resulting in lower performance then what is possible. When determining flow, consider the following: 1. If the flow is too high, you are flushing the panel with cool water reducing the panel outlet temperature. Of course the outlet temperature will increase over time as the storage tank heats up. However, this may not suit your application if you need hot water in a relative short time interval. However, do recall that a hotter panel will have higher ambient losses. 2. Higher flows cause greater mixing in the solar storage tank. Lower flows will allow the storage tank to stratify resulting in hot water on the top and cold water on the bottom. Two benefits: (a) hot water will be available during an energy draw, and (b) cold water is available for the collector which will increase the amount of energy captured from the sun. Both these benefits are negated if the tank is mixed. 3. Higher flows require a higher parasitic load. A neat option to consider is using a DC pump driven by a PV cell. Thus, your collector flow will be proportional to the insolation. The expense is higher, but system performance could be greatly improved. If interested, check out http://www.thermo-dynamics.com/ and search for “Solar Pump” Good luck, Tim Beckman Hey, look at that. We having an internet discourse… Thanks for the tip. Once I get the system up, I’ll tinker with it. The problem with tinkering is to get an adequate measurement of insolation. I think I’ll make a solar insolation meter from a solar panel connected through a resistive load. I can measure amp hrs delivered, which is proportional to insolation. I can get a measure of heat delivered by measuring the temperature rise in the storage tank efficiency ~ heat rise in storage tank / heat incident on panel (insolation)

Be careful with this approach. How will you determine the heat rise in the storage tank? You will need to insert some sort of thermocouple tree into the tank so that you have a temperature measurement at various elevations. You then divide the tank into sections; compute the volume/mass at each section; and then determine energy gain in the time dimension. Next you need to account for heat loss from the tank/piping to the surroundings. A better method is to measure collector flow and inlet outlet temperature. collected energy is then computed from (dm/dt)Cp(Tout-Tin). Mostly I wanted to see if I had the right order of magnitude flow rate. Before perusing D&B, I based the flow rate on the number of volume changes in the S&T heat exchanger. With D&B, I got a measure of the required flow per unit area of panel. A neat option to consider is using a DC pump driven by a PV cell. I’ve got them already:), but I want to get the basic system running first. step 1) switch it on/off when I get up/retire step 2) use a goldline differential temperature controller step 3) use a photovoltaic source I’m not sure if there is a big difference between the goldline differential temperature controller, and using a photovoltaic source. solar hot water heater tank

FWIW, (if properly sized) the PV pumped system will provide significantly better performance. This is because the flow varies with insolation. During periods of low insolation, the controller for constant flow systems would either turn the pump off (collecting zero energy) or keep the pump running. If the pump is kept running at a flow that is now too high, the collector outlet temperature will be lower then the top of your storage tank (assuming periods of sun during that day). Thus, even though you are heating the cold water in the tank bottom, you are cooling the water at the tank top (this is where it is drawn from during your hot water use) mucking up your stratification. I hope you can see (because my daughter is waking up and I must go) that which is proportional to the insolation avoids these problems. Basically, collector outlet temperature varies with the insolation for constant flow systems. If properly designed, variable flow systems (including PV pumped designs) result in high (somewhat) constant collector outlet temperatures allowing the storage to keep stratified during lower insolation. TTFN, Tim Well, I fired up the panels (54 ft^2) this weekend on a sunny day, and they work.solar hot water heater tank  I watched the temperature in the storage tank (36 gal) rise from 60 to 100