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Looking for solar heater for open stock tank solar water heater roof tank

Question:

Hi, I’m new here and just posting to try to gather some information on the (hopefully) existence of, and suppier of, a small, outdoor solar powered water heater for use in an open stock tank for watering horses. My horses are far enough from the main barn that I’d rather not have to dig trenches and run wire/outlet to the turnout areas to plug in a regular portable water heater.  (The kind you drop into a bucket).  I am hoping that something exists which I can mount on the fence by the tanks, attached to a safe heater placed into the water tank to prevent freezing in winter months. I know that similar outdoor devices exist; we currently run our 2000 feet of electrical fencing off of a 6V Parmak solar powered fence charger.  The battery is capable of keeping the fence charged in as many 21 days of complete darkness.  (I doubt we’d be around for long if that happened… anyway….).  This is similar to what I’m searching for. Or, is it possible to actually use the fence charger for also preventing the freezing in the stock tanks?  It is a low impedence charger, capable of charging 25 miles of fence (I only have ~ a mile if you count all three strands).  This is probably not an option, but any input would be helpful. thank you in advance, — Kristen Schulz Gaitway Farm Princeton MA www.geocities.com/heartland/flats/6440 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. solar water heater roof tank

Response:

solar water heater roof tank, I’m new here and just posting to try to gather some information on the (hopefully) existence of, and suppier of, a small, outdoor solar powered water heater for use in an open stock tank for watering horses. My horses are far enough from the main barn that I’d rather not have to dig trenches and run wire/outlet to the turnout areas to plug in a regular portable water heater.  (The kind you drop into a bucket).  I am hoping that something exists which I can mount on the fence by the tanks, attached to a safe heater placed into the water tank to prevent freezing in winter months. I know that similar outdoor devices exist; we currently run our 2000 feet of electrical fencing off of a 6V Parmak solar powered fence charger.  The battery is capable of keeping the fence charged in as many 21 days of complete darkness.  (I doubt we’d be around for long if that happened… anyway….).  This is similar to what I’m searching for. Or, is it possible to actually use the fence charger for also preventing the freezing in the stock tanks?  It is a low impedence charger, capable of charging 25 miles of fence (I only have ~ a mile if you count all three strands).  This is probably not an option, but any input would be helpful. thank you in advance, solar water heater roof tank

Interesting idea, but solar electric and solar thermal are vastly different in complexity. It would be possible to build something of a solar water heater to keep the stock tank from freezing – but it would cost many thousands of dollars, and likely couldn’t do the job in the dead of winter. Keeping an open tank of water from freezing over a hard winter is a tough job. I think your best option is to go with the generated-electric immersion heater! Andrew McKegney.

Response:

Homepower mag. did an article on this , they used a special heavily insulated tank and renewable energy to fill and keep the tank warm. . the Sunpower company of Tweed ,Ontario,Canada. wrote the article. If you need the details you could e-mail them,I think there web is sunpower.linkopp.net/        Or you could request a copy within the renewable enery group and I’m sure someone will e-mail you a soft copy from thier cd-rom ..                          Paul ..solar water heater roof tank. You’re on to your “it can all be calculated with formulae” benders. Forget about how practical the concept is, if it can be “proven” with numbers, it’s got to work!!!!! I believe the designers of the Titanic held to this belief as well Andrew McKegney

Response:

Thanks to those of you who responded so helpfully.  After doing a little research, I think I’ve found an answer– which is, what I’m looking for does not exist. :)  At least I can have the electrician out, knowing that I didn’t overlook something which is out there on the market.  I apologize if I posted to a newsgroup which was not quite accurate/appropriate for such a question.  (It was actually suggested to me that I post here, after posting on an equine forum).  Building something isn’t exactly in my genes or schedule.  So, I’ll just spend the money on a trench and conduit to run ~150 feet out to the tanks. This is what most people do, but I was of course hoping for an easier solution.  Thanks again. — Kristen Schulz Gaitway Farm Princeton MA www.geocities.com/heartland/flats/6440 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

This works for a boat berthing as well.solar water heater roof tank.thermal, but keeping a stock tank warm to keep from freezing is an endless battle. A simple system for stock tanks (or septic tanks) is to photovolatic power a small air pump that provides a stream of bubbles that will break through a couple inches of ice in an hour. Check out the Jade Mountain catalog, or just build one. ..Dave

Response:

…After 5 cloudy days in a row it loses about 5×24h(32-27)55 = 33K Btu, freezing 230 pounds of water to ice (33 pounds, on Andy McKegney’s planet), in a layer less than an inch thick, mostly inside the slippery coverites. I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about Nick…

That’s pretty clear, Andy. It takes about 144 Btu to melt a pound of ice on earth, not 1000, as you wrote in a previous posting.solar water heater roof tank

Response:

solar water heater roof tank , solar heads, and ice-breakers, I’m new here and just posting to try to gather some information on the (hopefully) existence of, and suppier of, a small, outdoor solar powered water heater for use in an open stock tank for watering horses. My horses are far enough from the main barn that I’d rather not have to dig trenches and run wire/outlet to the turnout areas to plug in a regular portable water heater.  (The kind you drop into a bucket)

Steve Baar, wrote a neat book, called “sunspots”, part of which addressed your situation. He used a very simple method for melting a hole in the ice so cattle could drink water from a remote water hole, in the winter, in Northern New Mexico; so that the cowpokes didn’t have to break ice every day. Your tank has to be big enough so that the water doesn’t freeze from top to bottom… perhaps partially buried in the earth. In Maine, where the average yearly air temperature is about 45F, the earth 20 feet deep is also 45F, and heat will flow to the surface. WHen Ice forms at the top of the pond, it acts as an insulator, and the heat flowing into it from the ground keeps the water in the bottom of the tank from freezing. If you wish, I could look it up in more detail; but the idea is simple. Just make several “loops” out of  hose,solar water heater roof tank  fill each with “anti-freeze”, and mount each so part of it is sticking up into the air and the other end near the bottom of the tank. The warm water at the bottom of the tank warms up the “anti-freeze” in the lower part of the hose-loop. The cold air hitting the top of the loop cools the antifreeze in the top part. The warm anti-freeze rises, the cold anti-freeze falls, and you have a “convective” type loop which circulates warm antifreeze to the ice, melting it. Pretty neat eh?   Toby Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. solar water heater roof tank

Response:

solar water heater roof tank…After 5 cloudy days in a row it loses about 5×24h(32-27)55 = 33K Btu, freezing 230 pounds of water to ice (33 pounds, on Andy McKegney’s planet), in a layer less than an inch thick, mostly inside the slippery coverites. I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about Nick… That’s pretty clear, Andy. It takes about 144 Btu to melt a pound of ice on earth, not 1000, as you wrote in a previous posting. Nick

Actually, 144 btus may be right in a controlled environment, but I would submit that on the “earth” in general, you’d have to take into account the environment at the time (i.e. dead of winter, ambient temp below 32F) sucking those btus back out of the ice, thereby requiring more than your 144 to actually melt it. Life is easy in a lab, a little more difficult in reality. Tim Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

…After 5 cloudy days in a row it loses about 5×24h(32-27)55 = 33K Btu, freezing 230 pounds of water… Actually, 144 btus may be right in a controlled environment, but I would submit that on the “earth” in general, you’d have to take into account the environment at the time (i.e. dead of winter, ambient temp below 32F)…

To wit, an average outdoor temp of 27 F in Worcester MA in December, as in 5daysx24h(32-27)55 = 33K Btu. The amount of coolth needed to form ice (about 144 Btu/lb, in the controlled environment) doesn’t change, but that’s a good starting point in an engineering approach that then calculates the heat transfer efficiency in delivering it to the water…solar water heater roof tank

Response:

As I read it you say sucking out the BTUs This of course would be the freezing process. You have to add those BTUs to melt the ice and that remains a constant. 144 BTUs per pound of ice. If you wish to melt 10 pounds. The cost in BTUs goes up 10 times. If the ambient temperature in the area you are melting said ice is robbing you of BTUs this has no effect on the amount to actually melt the stupid ice it still takes 144 BTUs. You figure out how to conserve them to melt the ice.   Phill-az – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …After 5 cloudy days in a row it loses about 5×24h(32-27)55 = 33K Btu, freezing 230 pounds of water to ice (33 pounds, on Andy McKegney’s planet), in a layer less than an inch thick, mostly inside the slippery coverites. I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about Nick… That’s pretty clear, Andy. It takes about 144 Btu to melt a pound of ice on earth, not 1000, as you wrote in a previous posting. Nick Actually, 144 btus may be right in a controlled environment, but I would submit that on the “earth” in general, you’d have to take into account the environment at the time (i.e. dead of winter, ambient temp below 32F) sucking those btus back out of the ice, thereby requiring more than your 144 to actually melt it. Life is easy in a lab, a little more difficult in reality. Tim Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. solar water heater roof tank

Response:

…After 5 cloudy days in a row it loses about 5×24h(32-27)55 = 33K Btu, freezing 230 pounds of water to ice (33 pounds, on Andy McKegney’s planet), in a layer less than an inch thick, mostly inside the slippery coverites. I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about Nick… That’s pretty clear, Andy. It takes about 144 Btu to melt a pound of ice on earth, not 1000, as you wrote in a previous posting. solar water heater roof tank

Nick, I have made no such post.  I challenge you to re-post any such post. If you can’t , I expect an apology. Andrew McKegney

Response:

Hi, followings are some information maybe helpful to you :   solar water heater roof tank we currently run our 2000 feet of electrical fencing off of a 6V Parmak solar powered fence charger.  The battery is capable of keeping the fence charged in as many 21 days of complete darkness.  (I doubt we’d be around for long if that happened… anyway….).  This is similar to what I’m searching for. Or, is it possible to actually use the fence charger for also preventing the freezing in the stock tanks?  It is a low impedence charger, capable of charging 25 miles of fence (I only have ~ a mile if you count all three strands).  This is probably not an option, but any input would be helpful.

Regards.

Response:

Try covering about 2/3 of the tank with the swimming pool heating cover stuff.solar water heater roof tank

-  outdoor solar powered water heater for use in an open stock tank for watering horses. If the tank were refilled with a water supply and a float valve, a small hole in the bottom might help… My horses are far enough from the main barn that I’d rather not have to dig trenches and run wire/outlet to the turnout areas to plug in a regular portable water heater… I know that similar outdoor devices exist; we currently run our 2000 feet of electrical fencing off of a 6V Parmak solar powered fence charger. The fence charger’s unlikely to be able to provide enough power to run a heater to keep the water from freezing, but you might possibly run 12 VDC through the fence wires with an inductor in series with a DC heater in the tank (the inductor avoids shorting out the fence charger signal.) Or you might cover the tank with some large sealed translucent baggies with a little water inside to keep them from blowing away and a few drops of oil to reduce condensation. These “coverites” (US Patent No. 4,467,786, issued 8/28/84) would allow the horses to drink (and give them something to play with :-) and allow rainwater to fill the tank. If a few broke or leaked and sank, the remainder would close up ranks so the surface stayed insulated. The worst-case month for solar heating in Worcester, MA is December, with an average outdoor temp of 27.4 F and an average annual (deep soil) temp of 46.7 F. An average of 480 Btu/ft^2 per day of sun falls on a horizontal surface, and 860 falls on a south wall. The average windspeed is 10.3 mph. An 8′ diameter x 2′ deep tank with R10 (2″ Styrofoam) sidewall insulation and an R1 cover has a thermal conductance of about 55 Btu/h-F. With 90% solar transmission and water temp T(F), 0.9×480x50ft^2 = 24h(T-27.4)55Btu/h-F, so T = 43.8 F. A 4′ high half-cylindrical reflector above the north wall would gather more sun (about 20K Btu/day, warming water ~15 F more) and reduce the heat loss by wind. At night, the tank might lose about 18h(44-27)55 = 16.8K Btu. With 200 gallons of water, ie a thermal capacitance C = 1600 Btu/F, the tank cools about 16.8K/1600 = 10 F by morning. After 5 cloudy days in a row it loses about 5×24h(32-27)55 = 33K Btu, freezing 230 pounds of water to ice (33 pounds, on Andy McKegney’s planet), in a layer less than an inch thick, mostly inside the slippery coverites. Nick

Response:

From Steve Baer’s book called “sunspots”. Starting on pg 28 :

A rancher near Drop City, Colorado mentioned that what we needed was a way to use  solar energy to keep stock ponds thawed….In  order to melt a hole in the ice I made a large loop from sections of  aluminum pipe and rubber hose. I filled the loop with methyl  alcohol and position it in a frozen pond so that the  top section sat half submerged in the ice which was about 10 inches thick, and the bottom section was near the bottom of the pond. I had tested the temperatures of the bottoms of a number of frozen ponds and found them to be between 40F and 42F. I reasoned that the methyl alcohol would be  warmed at the bottom of the loop and rise by convection to the top, where it would melt the ice or prevent  freezing of the water near the top of the loop. The next morning  when we returned the loop had indeed functioned, for there  was a narrow rind of clear water all about the top portion of the tube while another hole we had broken had frozen solid.  … I obtained a paten (US Patent No. 3,618,569) on the stock pond melter, but never built any more than the prototype. .. After much correspondence with agricultural schools about the stock pond melter I have come to suspect that the cowboys enjoy their winter ice-breaking expeditions.” Baer has a picture of his “Stock Pond Melter”. It consists of 1 piece of tubing, bent into the desired shape, with both ends connected together, thus forming a closed loop system. The shape is hard to describe, but I’ll try. From a distance, it would look like a wieght-lifting bar with 1 round wieght at each end.. or perhaps a wagon axle with a wheel at each end.. except, the bar (or axle) was not attached to the center of  the wieght (or wheel), but instead to 1 edge. Upon close examination, one finds the “bar” or axle is really 2 pipes run side by side, and the wieghts (wheel) are loops of pipe. So, starting from bottom to top, a pipe runs vertically (or at an angle) up to the top, then bend so that now the tube is running horizontal and then remains horizontal, but is bent to form a loop. But when the tube loops back to meet the tube again, it bends down vertically (or at an angle) again and continues to the bottom, where it bends horizontal again .. and again it makes a  loop, until it is connected to the original part of the tube where we started with.  The diagram shows that, except for the bottom loop, the whole thing is insulated with what looks like those gray spongy looking pipe-insulation tubing available at all hardware stores (but in reality, this is probably the rubber hose which Mr. Baer referred to above)…. you know the stuff that is a tube itself, except 1 side has a deep cut in it which almost goes all the way through the tube. The aluminum tubing most certainly is used to make the loops, but it

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