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Northern solar,solar water heater tank wisconsin now there’s true grit. Look at the temptations. $800 – $1,200 annual heating bills.solar water heater tank wisconsin  You won’t find potential savings like that even in Chicago. Unfortunately, the environment is hell. 810 Btu/ft^2 wouldn’t heat a toilet seat up here. I’ve run numbers thirteen ways to Sunday – I’m working on the 14th – and I don’t see a way to dent the heating bill significantly with passive solar or thermal modules without demolishing the 100-year old house and essentially moving into a solar collector. Subtlety doesn’t do it; you have to act on a grand scale. Chipping at the marginal edges seems to yield proportionally smaller marginal returns and generational payback periods. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Minnesota isn’t an easy place for solar heating. About like Seattle, : with more sun, but colder, 14.1 on an an average December day in St. : Cloud, with an average daily max of 23.1 and 810 Btu/ft^2 of sun that : falls on a south wall and 410 that falls on a horizontal surface.solar water heater tank wisconsin The : wall component might increase 30% with a frozen pond or snow in front : of a housewarming sunspace, and the sunspace might work better with 2 : layers of R1 glazing, say Replex polycarbonate, which comes in 49″ x : 100′ rolls for $1.25/ft^2 + $10 UPS from Rimol Greenhouse Systems in : NH at (603) 425-6563. Ironically, about the best choice for heating in Minnesota would be wind fuelling an electric system. You’d need a big windmill of course. The trouble with solar heating up there is near the winter solstice. Chicago (where I live) is bad enough around the winter solstice to deter solar enthusiasts. solar water heater tank wisconsin

solar water heater tank wisconsin

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solar water heater tank wisconsinAbout like Seattle, : with more sun, but colder, 14.1 on an an average December day in St. : Cloud, with an average daily max of 23.1 and 810 Btu/ft^2 of sun that : falls on a south wall and 410 that falls on a horizontal surface. The : wall component might increase 30% with a frozen pond or snow in front : of a housewarming sunspace, and the sunspace might work better with 2 : layers of R1 glazing, say Replex polycarbonate, which comes in 49″ x : 100′ rolls for $1.25/ft^2 + $10 UPS from Rimol Greenhouse Systems in : NH at (603) 425-6563. Ironically, about the best choice for heating in Minnesota would be wind fuelling an electric system. You’d need a big windmill of course. The trouble with solar heating up there is near the winter solstice. Chicago (where I live) is bad enough around the winter solstice to deter solar enthusiasts. — CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680  First Law of Economics: You can’t sell product to people without money. 3765213 bytes of spam mail deleted. solar water heater tank wisconsin

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Ironically, about the best choice for heating in Minnesota would be wind fuelling an electric system. You’d need a big windmill of course. The trouble with solar heating up there is near the winter solstice. Chicago (where I live) is bad enough around the winter solstice to deter solar enthusiasts.

Incorrect.   That may be true for Chicago due to lake effects and such, but not in Minnesota.   There are only a few places in Minnesota where wind power is worthwhile, the rest of the state only receives intermittent winds of enough power to power anything.  This is the main reason I did not put a wind genny up in my area of central MN. — BulkMailers and Email address compilers may purchase this individual email address for $25000.00 for use in their products. Anyone selling this email address or utilizing this email address for any commercial usage without a license from ShadowMAC is in violation of private property rights and violators WILL be be invoiced for usage. Selling what you do not own is THEFT of private property!!solar water heater tank wisconsin

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I was thinking about doing something like this in NW Montana. What about collecting that heat and pumping it into a 1000 to 2000 gal insulated tank? That way your losses are down and you can control the rate of release into the heated spaces. I’m thinking of tieing this in with an outdoor wood boiler. Anybody got a system like this or tried it before? Please tell me where I’m wrong before I go and do this. Also, I plan on putting in some sort of insulation on the glazing during dim days and at night. Any and all ideas greatly appreciated. thanks solar water heater tank wisconsin

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I was thinking about doing something like this in NW Montana.

Great Falls isn’t bad for solar house heating, but Kallispell’s awful, with an average Dec temp of 22.7 F, an average daily max of 29.9, and only 490 Btu/ft^2 of sun that falls on a south wall and 310 that falls on a horizontal surface on an average day. Like Seattle, but colder. What about collecting that heat and pumping it into a 1000 to 2000 gal insulated tank?

A large water container like that with a small surface to volume ratio wants some sort of solar water heater, eg a few automobile radiators with fans near the top of a sunspace. That way your losses are down and you can control the rate of release into the heated spaces.

Sure. Altho heating a space with low temperature water requires lots of heat transfer surface, eg walls o’ radiators, or a water source heat pump. You might make the tank a $500 24′x4′ deep 15,000 gallon circular swimming pool with a floating Styrofoam cover over a large piece of plastic film and lots of thin board insulation tightly wrapped around the outside. This might make a nice hot tub. Also, I plan on putting in some sort of insulation on the glazing during dim days and at night.

People tend to tire quickly of that activity, vs more automatic systems. A 1′ slice of a long 8′ tall quarter-cylindrical housewarming sunspace with 2 layers of R1 polycarbonate glazing with 90% solar transmission and a reflector in front would collect about 1.3×8ft^2×490x0.9×0.9 = 4,100 Btu/d of Kalispell’s southern solar component and 8ft^2×310x0.9×0.9 = 2,000 Btu of overhead sun. With a sunspace temperature T and a 6 hour December solar collection day, it would lose about 6h(T-26F)12ft^2/R2, eg 2,900 Btu/day for T = 106 F. If we make the sunspace too warm, it loses too much heat to the outdoors, and if we make it too cold, the water stores too little useful heat. What’s the optimum temperature? MagicAire’s copper $150 2′x2′ SHW 2347 duct heat exchanger with a fan (or a old auto radiator) might transfer 45K Btu/hour between 125 F water and 68 F air at 1400 cfm, with a 0.1″ H20 air pressure drop, for an effective conductance of about 45K/(125-68) = 800 Btu/h-F. solar water heater tank wisconsin

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Has anyone had any experience with making their own solar panels for hot water or heating, I’m looking for ideas and designs to use on my farm, any help or advice would be greatly appreciated..thanks in advance.solar water heater tank wisconsin

Minnesota isn’t an easy place for solar heating. About like Seattle, with more sun, but colder, 14.1 on an an average December day in St. Cloud, with an average daily max of 23.1 and 810 Btu/ft^2 of sun that falls on a south wall and 410 that falls on a horizontal surface. The wall component might increase 30% with a frozen pond or snow in front of a housewarming sunspace, and the sunspace might work better with 2 layers of R1 glazing, say Replex polycarbonate, which comes in 49″ x 100′ rolls for $1.25/ft^2 + $10 UPS from Rimol Greenhouse Systems in NH at (603) 425-6563. Let’s see. A 1 foot slice of an 8′ diameter quarter-cylindrical lean-to sunspace with R1 glazing with 90% solar transmission and a frozen pond in front gains about 1.3×810x0.9×8′ = 7,600 Btu/day from the south and 410×0.9×8′ = 2,900 from above. If 80 F inside 6 hours a day, with 12′ of curved glazing, it loses about 6h(80F-20F)12ft^2/R1 = 4,300 Btu, making the net gain about 6,200 Btu, starting with about 12,000 Btu of sun, for a solar collection efficiency of 6,200/12,000 = 53%. Not bad. I guess we don’t need 2 layers of plastic, which would lower the solar input to about 9,500 Btu and lower the loss to 2,200, for a net gain of 7,300, not much of an improvement. For water heating, you might consider something like Big Fins in the sunspace, with normally pressurized water inside and a thermosyphoning loop through an insulated tank above. These are bare solar water heating collectors, with no glazing or insulation of their own, and no pumps or antifreeze or heat exchangers. I think they can also be homemade from some copper pipe and brown aluminum roofing coil stock and a few nuts and bolts, for about $1/ft^2, as described in previous postings. You might have a tiny pump in a separate loop that keeps the Fins from freezing when the sunspace is very cold at night. DON’T fill up your housewarmer with thermal mass, as PSIC brick salesmen suggest, unless it’s inside a closet completely surrounded by insulation (even then it’s more efficient to use sealed containers of water than bricks or rocks). Putting lots of thermal mass in the sunspace makes it coolish 24 hours a day vs hotter during the day and colder at night. That wastes lots of solar heat by storing it during the day and letting it leak out all night through the low thermal resistance of the glazing. Heat the attached structure by circulating warm sunspace air during the day, with no air movement at night, and an insulated wall between the sunspace and the structure. Filling up the housewarmer above with thermal mass makes 7,600+2,900 = 10,500 Btu = 24h(T-14.1)12ft^2/R1, for a fairly constant sunspace temp T = 14.1 + 10,500/(24×12) = 50.6 F, not very useful for house heating. solar water heater tank wisconsin

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Question:

I’m wanting to add a large solar water heater tank repairs hot water heater with coil in wood furnace in my basement mechanical room.  Any one seen good plans or have experience doing this?  I later hope to add a solar bread box to this arrangement for non-winter use.solar water heater tank repairs

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solar water heater tank repairs, Am familiar with most facets of solar thermal and hydronic hot water/space heating, tho, we don’t find many many wood furnace types of systems in Southern California. Probably the most important consideration I would say is to make sure the circulating system is operating at all times that the wood furnace is in operation. I have seen many attempts to utilize fireplace and wood furnaces for hot water heating, only to find the coils disconnected, presumably from having the water boil in the coil, creating major (scaling or perforation of coil) problems. A reliable loop circulator is important. solar water heater tank repairs I don’t think I would rely on thermal syphoning, tho, some might disagree. I assume you would be using a solar differential controller and a small fractional horsepower pump (Grundfos 15-18SU) for circulation. Sensor location (at the wood stove) would be very important, and, what to do when the storage/heater reaches high limit would be a major consideration, also. Hope this helps a little! Joe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m wanting to add a large hot water heater with coil in wood furnace in my basement mechanical room.  Any one seen good plans or have experience doing this?  I later hope to add a solar bread box to this arrangement for non-winter use. solar water heater tank repairs

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I’m wanting to add a large hot water heater with coil in wood furnace in my basement mechanical room.  Any one seen good plans or have experience doing this?  I later hope to add a solar bread box to this arrangement for non-winter use. solar water heater tank repairs

I used an arrangement like this in my house in NY for years. I had a Riteway furnace with a glass lined tank in the firebox. This was circulated using a solar differential controller and a Grundfos pump through the solar loop on the Ford Solar water heater.  In the summer the solar collector differential controller and pump to the collectors would be the source of heat. Be sure to include an expansion tank in the furnace loop. solar water heater tank repairs

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I’m wanting to add a large hot water heater with coil in wood furnace in my basement mechanical room.  Any one seen good plans or have experience doing this?  I later hope to add a solar bread box to this arrangement for non-winter use. solar water heater tank repairs

There is a company on the US east coast who supply saddle type heat exchangers for wood stove use.  For your application try some of the references listed in this academic report.solar water heater tank repairs

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I used an arrangement like this in my house in NY for years. I had a Riteway furnace with a glass lined tank in the firebox. This was circulated using a solar differential controller and a Grundfos pump through the solar loop on the Ford Solar water heater.  In the summer the solar collector differential controller and pump to the collectors would be the source of heat. Be sure to include an expansion tank in the furnace loop. solar water heater tank repairs

If you want to do it perfectly then you should add a mechanism which keeps the temperature of the heat exchanger in the furnace above about 60 solar water heater tank repairs

Question:

Hi, I’m new here and just posting to try to gather some information on the (hopefully) existence of, and suppier of, a small, outdoor solar powered water heater for use in an open stock tank for watering horses. My horses are far enough from the main barn that I’d rather not have to dig trenches and run wire/outlet to the turnout areas to plug in a regular portable water heater.  (The kind you drop into a bucket).  I am hoping that something exists which I can mount on the fence by the tanks, attached to a safe heater placed into the water tank to prevent freezing in winter months. I know that similar outdoor devices exist; we currently run our 2000 feet of electrical fencing off of a 6V Parmak solar powered fence charger.  The battery is capable of keeping the fence charged in as many 21 days of complete darkness.  (I doubt we’d be around for long if that happened… anyway….).  This is similar to what I’m searching for. Or, is it possible to actually use the fence charger for also preventing the freezing in the stock tanks?  It is a low impedence charger, capable of charging 25 miles of fence (I only have ~ a mile if you count all three strands).  This is probably not an option, but any input would be helpful. thank you in advance, — Kristen Schulz Gaitway Farm Princeton MA www.geocities.com/heartland/flats/6440 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. solar water heater roof tank

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solar water heater roof tank, I’m new here and just posting to try to gather some information on the (hopefully) existence of, and suppier of, a small, outdoor solar powered water heater for use in an open stock tank for watering horses. My horses are far enough from the main barn that I’d rather not have to dig trenches and run wire/outlet to the turnout areas to plug in a regular portable water heater.  (The kind you drop into a bucket).  I am hoping that something exists which I can mount on the fence by the tanks, attached to a safe heater placed into the water tank to prevent freezing in winter months. I know that similar outdoor devices exist; we currently run our 2000 feet of electrical fencing off of a 6V Parmak solar powered fence charger.  The battery is capable of keeping the fence charged in as many 21 days of complete darkness.  (I doubt we’d be around for long if that happened… anyway….).  This is similar to what I’m searching for. Or, is it possible to actually use the fence charger for also preventing the freezing in the stock tanks?  It is a low impedence charger, capable of charging 25 miles of fence (I only have ~ a mile if you count all three strands).  This is probably not an option, but any input would be helpful. thank you in advance, solar water heater roof tank

Interesting idea, but solar electric and solar thermal are vastly different in complexity. It would be possible to build something of a solar water heater to keep the stock tank from freezing – but it would cost many thousands of dollars, and likely couldn’t do the job in the dead of winter. Keeping an open tank of water from freezing over a hard winter is a tough job. I think your best option is to go with the generated-electric immersion heater! Andrew McKegney.

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Homepower mag. did an article on this , they used a special heavily insulated tank and renewable energy to fill and keep the tank warm. . the Sunpower company of Tweed ,Ontario,Canada. wrote the article. If you need the details you could e-mail them,I think there web is sunpower.linkopp.net/        Or you could request a copy within the renewable enery group and I’m sure someone will e-mail you a soft copy from thier cd-rom ..                          Paul ..solar water heater roof tank. You’re on to your “it can all be calculated with formulae” benders. Forget about how practical the concept is, if it can be “proven” with numbers, it’s got to work!!!!! I believe the designers of the Titanic held to this belief as well Andrew McKegney

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Thanks to those of you who responded so helpfully.  After doing a little research, I think I’ve found an answer– which is, what I’m looking for does not exist.  At least I can have the electrician out, knowing that I didn’t overlook something which is out there on the market.  I apologize if I posted to a newsgroup which was not quite accurate/appropriate for such a question.  (It was actually suggested to me that I post here, after posting on an equine forum).  Building something isn’t exactly in my genes or schedule.  So, I’ll just spend the money on a trench and conduit to run ~150 feet out to the tanks. This is what most people do, but I was of course hoping for an easier solution.  Thanks again. — Kristen Schulz Gaitway Farm Princeton MA www.geocities.com/heartland/flats/6440 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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This works for a boat berthing as well.solar water heater roof tank.thermal, but keeping a stock tank warm to keep from freezing is an endless battle. A simple system for stock tanks (or septic tanks) is to photovolatic power a small air pump that provides a stream of bubbles that will break through a couple inches of ice in an hour. Check out the Jade Mountain catalog, or just build one. ..Dave

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…After 5 cloudy days in a row it loses about 5×24h(32-27)55 = 33K Btu, freezing 230 pounds of water to ice (33 pounds, on Andy McKegney’s planet), in a layer less than an inch thick, mostly inside the slippery coverites. I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about Nick…

That’s pretty clear, Andy. It takes about 144 Btu to melt a pound of ice on earth, not 1000, as you wrote in a previous posting.solar water heater roof tank

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solar water heater roof tank , solar heads, and ice-breakers, I’m new here and just posting to try to gather some information on the (hopefully) existence of, and suppier of, a small, outdoor solar powered water heater for use in an open stock tank for watering horses. My horses are far enough from the main barn that I’d rather not have to dig trenches and run wire/outlet to the turnout areas to plug in a regular portable water heater.  (The kind you drop into a bucket)

Steve Baar, wrote a neat book, called “sunspots”, part of which addressed your situation. He used a very simple method for melting a hole in the ice so cattle could drink water from a remote water hole, in the winter, in Northern New Mexico; so that the cowpokes didn’t have to break ice every day. Your tank has to be big enough so that the water doesn’t freeze from top to bottom… perhaps partially buried in the earth. In Maine, where the average yearly air temperature is about 45F, the earth 20 feet deep is also 45F, and heat will flow to the surface. WHen Ice forms at the top of the pond, it acts as an insulator, and the heat flowing into it from the ground keeps the water in the bottom of the tank from freezing. If you wish, I could look it up in more detail; but the idea is simple. Just make several “loops” out of  hose,solar water heater roof tank  fill each with “anti-freeze”, and mount each so part of it is sticking up into the air and the other end near the bottom of the tank. The warm water at the bottom of the tank warms up the “anti-freeze” in the lower part of the hose-loop. The cold air hitting the top of the loop cools the antifreeze in the top part. The warm anti-freeze rises, the cold anti-freeze falls, and you have a “convective” type loop which circulates warm antifreeze to the ice, melting it. Pretty neat eh?   Toby Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. solar water heater roof tank

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solar water heater roof tank…After 5 cloudy days in a row it loses about 5×24h(32-27)55 = 33K Btu, freezing 230 pounds of water to ice (33 pounds, on Andy McKegney’s planet), in a layer less than an inch thick, mostly inside the slippery coverites. I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about Nick… That’s pretty clear, Andy. It takes about 144 Btu to melt a pound of ice on earth, not 1000, as you wrote in a previous posting. Nick

Actually, 144 btus may be right in a controlled environment, but I would submit that on the “earth” in general, you’d have to take into account the environment at the time (i.e. dead of winter, ambient temp below 32F) sucking those btus back out of the ice, thereby requiring more than your 144 to actually melt it. Life is easy in a lab, a little more difficult in reality. Tim Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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…After 5 cloudy days in a row it loses about 5×24h(32-27)55 = 33K Btu, freezing 230 pounds of water… Actually, 144 btus may be right in a controlled environment, but I would submit that on the “earth” in general, you’d have to take into account the environment at the time (i.e. dead of winter, ambient temp below 32F)…

To wit, an average outdoor temp of 27 F in Worcester MA in December, as in 5daysx24h(32-27)55 = 33K Btu. The amount of coolth needed to form ice (about 144 Btu/lb, in the controlled environment) doesn’t change, but that’s a good starting point in an engineering approach that then calculates the heat transfer efficiency in delivering it to the water…solar water heater roof tank

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As I read it you say sucking out the BTUs This of course would be the freezing process. You have to add those BTUs to melt the ice and that remains a constant. 144 BTUs per pound of ice. If you wish to melt 10 pounds. The cost in BTUs goes up 10 times. If the ambient temperature in the area you are melting said ice is robbing you of BTUs this has no effect on the amount to actually melt the stupid ice it still takes 144 BTUs. You figure out how to conserve them to melt the ice.   Phill-az – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …After 5 cloudy days in a row it loses about 5×24h(32-27)55 = 33K Btu, freezing 230 pounds of water to ice (33 pounds, on Andy McKegney’s planet), in a layer less than an inch thick, mostly inside the slippery coverites. I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about Nick… That’s pretty clear, Andy. It takes about 144 Btu to melt a pound of ice on earth, not 1000, as you wrote in a previous posting. Nick Actually, 144 btus may be right in a controlled environment, but I would submit that on the “earth” in general, you’d have to take into account the environment at the time (i.e. dead of winter, ambient temp below 32F) sucking those btus back out of the ice, thereby requiring more than your 144 to actually melt it. Life is easy in a lab, a little more difficult in reality. Tim Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. solar water heater roof tank

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…After 5 cloudy days in a row it loses about 5×24h(32-27)55 = 33K Btu, freezing 230 pounds of water to ice (33 pounds, on Andy McKegney’s planet), in a layer less than an inch thick, mostly inside the slippery coverites. I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about Nick… That’s pretty clear, Andy. It takes about 144 Btu to melt a pound of ice on earth, not 1000, as you wrote in a previous posting. solar water heater roof tank

Nick, I have made no such post.  I challenge you to re-post any such post. If you can’t , I expect an apology. Andrew McKegney

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Hi, followings are some information maybe helpful to you :   solar water heater roof tank we currently run our 2000 feet of electrical fencing off of a 6V Parmak solar powered fence charger.  The battery is capable of keeping the fence charged in as many 21 days of complete darkness.  (I doubt we’d be around for long if that happened… anyway….).  This is similar to what I’m searching for. Or, is it possible to actually use the fence charger for also preventing the freezing in the stock tanks?  It is a low impedence charger, capable of charging 25 miles of fence (I only have ~ a mile if you count all three strands).  This is probably not an option, but any input would be helpful.

Regards.

Response:

Try covering about 2/3 of the tank with the swimming pool heating cover stuff.solar water heater roof tank

-  outdoor solar powered water heater for use in an open stock tank for watering horses. If the tank were refilled with a water supply and a float valve, a small hole in the bottom might help… My horses are far enough from the main barn that I’d rather not have to dig trenches and run wire/outlet to the turnout areas to plug in a regular portable water heater… I know that similar outdoor devices exist; we currently run our 2000 feet of electrical fencing off of a 6V Parmak solar powered fence charger. The fence charger’s unlikely to be able to provide enough power to run a heater to keep the water from freezing, but you might possibly run 12 VDC through the fence wires with an inductor in series with a DC heater in the tank (the inductor avoids shorting out the fence charger signal.) Or you might cover the tank with some large sealed translucent baggies with a little water inside to keep them from blowing away and a few drops of oil to reduce condensation. These “coverites” (US Patent No. 4,467,786, issued 8/28/84) would allow the horses to drink (and give them something to play with and allow rainwater to fill the tank. If a few broke or leaked and sank, the remainder would close up ranks so the surface stayed insulated. The worst-case month for solar heating in Worcester, MA is December, with an average outdoor temp of 27.4 F and an average annual (deep soil) temp of 46.7 F. An average of 480 Btu/ft^2 per day of sun falls on a horizontal surface, and 860 falls on a south wall. The average windspeed is 10.3 mph. An 8′ diameter x 2′ deep tank with R10 (2″ Styrofoam) sidewall insulation and an R1 cover has a thermal conductance of about 55 Btu/h-F. With 90% solar transmission and water temp T(F), 0.9×480x50ft^2 = 24h(T-27.4)55Btu/h-F, so T = 43.8 F. A 4′ high half-cylindrical reflector above the north wall would gather more sun (about 20K Btu/day, warming water ~15 F more) and reduce the heat loss by wind. At night, the tank might lose about 18h(44-27)55 = 16.8K Btu. With 200 gallons of water, ie a thermal capacitance C = 1600 Btu/F, the tank cools about 16.8K/1600 = 10 F by morning. After 5 cloudy days in a row it loses about 5×24h(32-27)55 = 33K Btu, freezing 230 pounds of water to ice (33 pounds, on Andy McKegney’s planet), in a layer less than an inch thick, mostly inside the slippery coverites. Nick

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From Steve Baer’s book called “sunspots”. Starting on pg 28 :

A rancher near Drop City, Colorado mentioned that what we needed was a way to use  solar energy to keep stock ponds thawed….In  order to melt a hole in the ice I made a large loop from sections of  aluminum pipe and rubber hose. I filled the loop with methyl  alcohol and position it in a frozen pond so that the  top section sat half submerged in the ice which was about 10 inches thick, and the bottom section was near the bottom of the pond. I had tested the temperatures of the bottoms of a number of frozen ponds and found them to be between 40F and 42F. I reasoned that the methyl alcohol would be  warmed at the bottom of the loop and rise by convection to the top, where it would melt the ice or prevent  freezing of the water near the top of the loop. The next morning  when we returned the loop had indeed functioned, for there  was a narrow rind of clear water all about the top portion of the tube while another hole we had broken had frozen solid.  … I obtained a paten (US Patent No. 3,618,569) on the stock pond melter, but never built any more than the prototype. .. After much correspondence with agricultural schools about the stock pond melter I have come to suspect that the cowboys enjoy their winter ice-breaking expeditions.” Baer has a picture of his “Stock Pond Melter”. It consists of 1 piece of tubing, bent into the desired shape, with both ends connected together, thus forming a closed loop system. The shape is hard to describe, but I’ll try. From a distance, it would look like a wieght-lifting bar with 1 round wieght at each end.. or perhaps a wagon axle with a wheel at each end.. except, the bar (or axle) was not attached to the center of  the wieght (or wheel), but instead to 1 edge. Upon close examination, one finds the “bar” or axle is really 2 pipes run side by side, and the wieghts (wheel) are loops of pipe. So, starting from bottom to top, a pipe runs vertically (or at an angle) up to the top, then bend so that now the tube is running horizontal and then remains horizontal, but is bent to form a loop. But when the tube loops back to meet the tube again, it bends down vertically (or at an angle) again and continues to the bottom, where it bends horizontal again .. and again it makes a  loop, until it is connected to the original part of the tube where we started with.  The diagram shows that, except for the bottom loop, the whole thing is insulated with what looks like those gray spongy looking pipe-insulation tubing available at all hardware stores (but in reality, this is probably the rubber hose which Mr. Baer referred to above)…. you know the stuff that is a tube itself, except 1 side has a deep cut in it which almost goes all the way through the tube. The aluminum tubing most certainly is used to make the loops, but it

Question:

Yes, look for several types of Phase Change Material (PCM), some of which are designed for selective temerature of change in phase. THere are commercial products available. Let me know if you need specific info PPN solar water heater tank wisconsin  Would love some input on the following: I heard recently about an alternative to ’sensible’ heat storage (ie. hot water tank).  Rather than increasing the temperature of a medium, you use it’s latent heat and maintain a constant-temperature heat source which is changing state according to energy content.  This certainly isn’t some new high-tech idea, it’s just that i hadn’t heard about it before and am wondering why we dont’ see it in use. My first thought was of a solar water heater that circulated the hot water through a ‘wall of wax’, more or less a tall, narrow box filled with paraffin. The idea is that once the system was operating, it would stay pretty much right at the melting temperature and simply change state from solid to liquid and back. I’m wondering if this has been tried.  How do these systems fail?  Are there problems that occur once the material is all melted and exceeds melting point? Expansion/contraction issues?  Are there other materials better suited than paraffin (ideally, those with a higher specific heat but similar melting point)? Wouldn’t it be fun to welcome a guest to your house and say, solar water heater tank wisconsin

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A thought about the Wax thing… In the event your house catches fire, do you think the wax phase-change would absorb enough heat to extinguish the fire? solar water heater tank wisconsin

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That made me chuckle…  OK, I’ll bite: Only up to the moment that the wax vapor hits flash point, at which time the heat flow will dramatically reverse…solar water heater tank wisconsin A thought about the Wax thing… In the event your house catches fire, do you think the wax phase-change would absorb enough heat to extinguish the fire?

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solar water heater tank wisconsin  I think the wax thing was discussed here within the past few weeks. Try searching what used to be Deja, now at www.google.com But some other product, I can’t recall the chemical or trade name, IS available (in the USA) in packages that are sized to fit between 2×4 studs on 16″ centres. Look for “phase change” when you search.

It took some looking, but i found some posts on PCM.  They’re a year old from alt.energy.homepower/renewable.  That’s the best i found, searching on PCM + phase change + latent.  But it’s helpful nonetheless.  Thanks for the suggestion. From the brief bit of reading i’ve done so far tonite (can’t read it all, i got’s work to do), it seems the largest use for PCM is as a ‘treatment’ for existing walls, impregnating standard building materials with the PCM to lend them ‘latency’ (that’s my wording, not theirs). So i compared this idea to mine, which was a little less, shall we say, sophisticated.  it occurs to me that if PCM are effective at low concentrations in gypsum board or whatever, that if i *were* to make a wall filled with the stuff, it wouldn’t have to be that big.  So, once again, i’m thinking a wall near the center of the house, let’s say 5′long by 6″ thick, running up to the ceiling.  Sheath it in something relatively conductive but firesafe (since paraffin is so very burnable), and just fill the dang thing with some cheap paraffin.  I found 60 lb. of low-grade candle-paraffin (melt point 120deg.F) for $38.  One would have to give space for the expansion and contraction. Rather than using this storage to merely absorb excess energy and give it back later, actually plumbing hot water through it would turn it into a kind of low-temperature central heater, right? Or am i nuts? I don’t suppose anybody’s actually tried this stuff?solar water heater tank wisconsin

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A thought about the Wax thing… In the event your house catches fire, do you think the wax phase-change would absorb enough heat to extinguish the fire?

Heehee.  At least there wouldn’t be any messing around with trying to save the house.  ”Just break out the marshmallows, boys — this one’s a lost cause”. Apparently the embedded PCMs are available in a variety that is sheathed with a fire-retardant layer (i think it was gypsum) to counteract the flammability.  My reason for being so nonchalant about dumping a pile of firestarter in my livingroom was that the manufacturers seemed to think a little sheathing would do the trick.  And that was intentional naivete.  Hence the posting to see what i could see.  I take it your personal opinion is that paraffin-based PCMs, regardless of installation, would all be an unacceptable fire hazard? Forgive me if i’m beating a dead horse.  I just like the latent storage idea and am looking for new ideas. solar water heater tank wisconsin

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… So i compared this idea to mine, which was a little less, shall we say, sophisticated.  it occurs to me that if PCM are effective at low concentrations in gypsum board or whatever, that if i *were* to make a wall filled with the stuff, it wouldn’t have to be that big.  So, once again, i’m thinking a wall near the center of the house, let’s say 5′long by 6″ thick, running up to the ceiling.  Sheath it in something relatively conductive but firesafe (since paraffin is so very burnable), and just fill the dang thing with some cheap paraffin.  I found 60 lb. of low-grade candle-paraffin (melt point 120deg.F) for $38.  One would have to give space for the expansion and contraction.

… Remember that the storage ‘point’ will be the melting point of the material. In this case 120 F. This would do pretty good at keeping hot water hot in say, a water heater tank. I think it might be less effective exposed directly inside the house where you may want less than 120 F temperatures. Most of these phase change materials made for keeping house temps steady are made with a melting point at or around 72 F.solar water heater tank wisconsin

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…I found 60 lb. of low-grade candle-paraffin (melt point 120deg.F) for $38…

Sounds reasonable. What’s the density and Btu/lb-F when it melts? One would have to give space for the expansion and contraction. …This would do pretty good at keeping hot water hot in say, a water heater tank.

And the water would lessen the fire hazard. We might see Cryogel Wax Balls if enough people are interested. Hard plastic Cryogel Ice Balls are used for coolth storage for off-peak air conditioning. They are about the size of a softball, with dimples for expansion and about a pound of water inside, and they are typically used in an antifreeze tank.solar water heater tank wisconsin

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Alright, alright, i officially give up on this paraffin business.  Finally decided i just don’t like the idea of a lump of firestarter in my house, regardless of how well it’s sheathed. But look at this! http://www.pcm-solutions.com/ Check out the TEA-29 product.  It’s like an inverted muffin-pan filled with a 29deg.C (84deg.F) PCM.  Designed specifically for radiant-floor heating. It’s designed so you can snake your hot-water pipes between the cups.  I wrote for pricing info and got a rough estimate of $4/ft^2.  BTW, that compares to bulk low-melt paraffin as $3.66/kg of TEA-29 vs. $2.63/kg paraffin.  And their respective heats of fusion are 188 kJ/kg vs. 177.4 kJ/kg.  While i’m doing all this annoying unit-converting, i’ll go ahead and figure out that the cost -to- latent heat ratios are 1.95 cents/kJ vs. 1.48 cents/kJ. So the question now is, is $4/ft^2 a reasonable price?  I lack the practical experience that so many on this ng have, both regarding solar applications and just plain home-building.  The manufacturer states that the cups are to be covered with concrete (or whatever) to a total depth (including cups) of 60mm (2.36″).  I assume rebar would have to be snaked in there, too. Thanks all for your input.  My normal newsserver is down so i’m using newsone.net, but i dunno if my posts are showing up for everybody, since i never see newsone posts when i use my normal newsreader.  Will repost when i figure out whats up. Jerud  —–  Posted via NewsOnesolar water heater tank wisconsin

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I’ve been trying to use newsone.net since the machine i usually use is for some reason being uncooperative.  But i realized that most of your posts don’t show up on newsone, and some of my posts on newsone don’t show up here.  So here’s a (slightly modified) repost of my most recent.  Sorry if you’re getting this twice. Alright, alright, i officially give up on this paraffin business. Finally decided i just don’t like the idea of a lump of firestarter in my house, regardless of how well it’s sheathed.  Using a paraffin core in a water storage tank, as mr. Matonak suggests, is very attractive though, isn’t it?  Especially since 120deg.F is the temperature most water heaters are set at anyhow, right? The reason i had been satisfied with the high MP of paraffin was that i figured a higher temperature differential would be needed to transfer enough energy to the room air within a short enough period of time to keep nights comfortable.  But yes, you’d have a wall in the house which had a surface temperature near that of scalding bathwater.  I also figured that the requisite sheathing would help cut down the surface temp.  These were sacrifices i thought would be acceptable in exchange for the low expense of the system and that wonderful ‘homebrewed’ aspect of the project. However, i took enough flak on the ng for paraffin that i kept looking, and look what i found!solar water heater tank wisconsin , this is an excellent resource.  Check out the TEA-29 product. It’s like an inverted muffin-pan filled with a 29deg.C (84deg.F) PCM. Designed specifically for radiant-floor heating.  It’s designed so you can snake your hot-water pipes between the cups.  I wrote for info and got a price of $4/ft^2. solar water heater tank wisconsin. They’re pretty close, except for the two key issues of flammability and melting point.  So the question now is, is $4/ft^2 a reasonable price? I lack the practical experience that so many on this ng have, both regarding solar applications and just plain home-building.  The manufacturer states that the cups are to be covered with concrete (or whatever) to a total depth (including cups) of 60mm (2.36″).  I assume rebar would have to be snaked in there, too. Jerud

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…This would do pretty good at keeping hot water hot in say, a water heater tank. And the water would lessen the fire hazard. We might see Cryogel Wax Balls if enough people are interested. Hard plastic Cryogel Ice Balls are used for coolth storage for off-peak air conditioning. They are about the size of a softball, with dimples for expansion and about a pound of water inside, and they are typically used in an antifreeze tank.

If you haven’t already,solar water heater tank wisconsin.  They have HDPE-encased PCM for several different temperatures, one of which is 58 deg.C (136 deg.F).  These are available in both a hydrated salt PCM (the one i referred to in my last post) and a plain paraffin.  They’re little balls.  You know those bubblegum balls that come in a long plastic tube?  Like a string-of-pearls?  You could make a string like that out of wire mesh and fill it with the PCM balls, then drop it into the water tank.  That would maybe keep the balls from falling to the bottom (or floating to the top — i can’t remember the density of paraffin anymore) and maintain good heat transfer. Of course, if anybody can figure out how to just melt down candles and seal the wax inside old tennis balls, how cool would that be?  Long live home-brew solar systems! solar water heater tank wisconsin

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Question:

I am planning on building a solar water heater,solar water heater storage tank  but first, I would like to know how electric water heaters work.solar water heater storage tank  I don

Question:

solar water heater tank wisconsin

if you’ve got enough solar energy, all you need is a tank,passive solar water heater tank  painted black and exposed to sunlight. Connect the tank to the cold water supply at the bottom and tap off the hot water from the top, as water moves upwards when heated. This is how a lot of water heaters work in Israel and Greece. If you’re unable to get hold of a tank that can hold water pressure, you can use any tank – you just have to put it above the place where the water is used, eg on a roof, and tap off the water using the free flow – always from the top of solar water heater tank wisconsin the tank.passive solar water heater tank  A suitable mechanism for filling the tank could be taken either from an old toilet (where a floater automatically closes the water inlet when the water reaches a certain level) or the device used (in Denmark at least) for filling the cattles’ drinking trough. Just remember to prolong the inlet (has to sit in the surface) with a piece of garden hose, so that the cold water enters the tank at, or near, the bottom. If you need a system thats little more advanced, eg. if you need to store warm water from one day for use the next morning, or under less favorable weather conditions, you need to insulate the tank. This way, it no longer works as a solar collector itself, so you have to add some collector surface to the system. Use eg. some old radiators, painted black and preferrably insulated on the back and covered with glass – or just placed in a wind-shelteder place. solar water heater tank wisconsin If using more that one, connect the radiators in parallel, and connect the outlet (the highest point) of each radiator to the inlet at the top of the tank, and the inlet of the collector (the lowest point) to the outlet at the bottom of the tank. Orientate the panels towards the sun and remember that the panels should be level with or lower than the tank, so that the hot water from the panels can by itself rise to the tank. I hope you can use the answer – there’s certainly not much help to be found at “sixrivers”… Youre welcome to mail me if I can help you further. solar water heater tank wisconsin I’m living on Borneo and would like to be able to build a solar water heater for the people in a Longhouse in the Highlands of the Interior. It gets cool at night although we are only 5 degrees north of the Equator. The have a reasonable water pressure by pipe from a nearby damn. Does anyone know where I can get some designs from that would be easy to build in a remote location. Thanks Dave Bpassive solar water heater tank solar water heater tank wisconsin

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I’m living on Borneo and would like to solar water heater tank wisconsin be able to build a solar water heater for the people in a Longhouse in the Highlands of the Interior. It gets cool at night although we are only 5 degrees north of the Equator.passive solar water heater tank The have a reasonable water pressure by pipe from a nearby damn. Does anyone know where I can get some designs from that would be easy to build in a remote location. passive solar water heater tank solar water heater tank wisconsin

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Has anyone got any good web site address’ for information on solar heated water? passive solar water heater tank

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Question:

.solar domestic water heater tanks..The more I think about it the more likely I am to forget the water heater angle and go for a pure solar hot water system for the time being… solar domestic water heater tanks

You might also consider using the “solar waste heat” from an amorphous PV panel (12 times the electrical output for water heating, something like Applebee’s restaurant system described in the Jan/Feb 1998 issue of Solar Today. Their PV shingles have no transparent cover, and 25% of the PV output is used to run a fan for an air-water heat exchanger. This might be improved with a transparent cover for the PVs and a direct-coupled heat exchanger, eg some pipes or tubing or a water solar domestic water heater tanks-filled rubber bladder underneath, or a clear plastic bag of water above them, or some water trickling over their faces, with a good thermal bond to the PVs, which could be mounted flat, with a mildly-concentrating hinged overhead reflector.solar domestic water heater tanks

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solar domestic water heater tanks    I’m looking to pickup a water heater for a trailer I’ve purchased…     Your suggestions are appreciated How about a 4′x8′ EPDM rubber bladder on the roof, with a 2×6 border and 2″ of styrofoam underneath, and a 4″ Styrofoam cover, reflective underneath and hinged on the north edge, with a counterweight, that opens towards vertical during the day and folds down at night, either manually, or with a windshield wiper motor and a couple of limit switches? That would hold about 75 gallons or 600 pounds of water, so RC = R20/64ft^2×600Btu/F = 188 hours, roughly, and over a couple of 30 F cloudy days the water might cool from 120 F to 30+(120-30)exp(-48/188) = 100 F. It might be kept filled with rainwater, or with a float valve, like a toilet tank, for a gravity-feed hot water supply. Where I live, with 2 layers of polycarbonate glazing, it might collect about 1200Btu/ft^2-dayx0.81×32ft^2×1.4 = 44K Btu/day of sun and lose about 6h(120-30)32ft^2/R2 = 8,640 Btu, for a net gain of 35K Btu/day at 120 F, enough for about 5 5 minute 3 gpm 50-110 F showers/day.

Thanks for your thoughts Nick…You paint a compelling picture here. The more I think about it the more likely I am to forget the water heater angle and go for a pure solar hot water system for the time being. The last time I put together a solar water heater it worked just fine and provided all the hot water I needed. It was a breadbox style 30 gallon heater with everbrite aluminum reflectors behind the collection drum in an insulated double glazed box. I moved and ended up giving it to a friend but during the six months I used it I rarely had less than 120 deg F water by days end even if the tank was at 50 deg F at the days beginning. Even on slightly overcast days it would get to 90-100 F. Adding a reflective surface to an insulated door as you suggest would be a good move     Currently I’m using a small 5 gallon black plastic water carrier/solar shower. It’s performance was vastly improved by putting it inside a foil lined wood crate with a single sheet of thick clear plastic over the opening. On a sunny day I can get a nice warm shower out of it by 1pm or so and then refill it and have warm water for dishes/washup/etc. I’d purposely held off in doing anything more involved until I moved the trailer to a more permanent spot but it looks like that will happen in the next couple weeks. I’m getting excited about what all I’ll be able to do when I move. — Don Kulha — Home Power Magazine – The Hands-On Journal of Home-Made Power http://www.homepower.com Solar2…7 Years/3900+ pages of Home Power on CD-ROM

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I’m looking to pickup a water heater for a trailer I’ve purchased. Hopefully most of the hot water will come from a 4X7 water heating panel I have which I’d like to plumb into a loop thru a heat exchanger in the water heater driven by a 12v pump hooked to a small PV panel. Ideally I’d like to find something in the 15 gallon range for the tank though bigger or smaller will work.      RV’s sometimes have a 6 or 10 gallon tank with a heat exchanger. I’ve noted that RV parts are fairly expensive. Went searching at some of the local stores for water heaters but the smallest gas one they had was 20 gallons and they didn’t offer anything with a heat exchanger loop smaller than 40 gallons.      I have to do this on a budget so I’ll have to forgoe the Bosch tankless heater I’d love to have for now.      Your suggestions are appreciated — Don Kulha — Home Power Magazine – The Hands-On Journal of Home-Made Power http://www.homepower.com Solar2…7 Years/3900+ pages of Home Power on CD-ROM

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I’m looking to pickup a water heater for a trailer I’ve purchased…     Your suggestions are appreciated

How about a 4′x8′ EPDM rubber bladder on the roof, with a 2×6 border and 2″ of styrofoam underneath, and a 4″ Styrofoam cover, reflective underneath and hinged on the north edge, with a counterweight, that opens towards vertical during the day and folds down at night, either manually, or with a windshield wiper motor and a couple of limit switches? That would hold about 75 gallons or 600 pounds of water, so RC = R20/64ft^2×600Btu/F = 188 hours, roughly, and over a couple of 30 F cloudy days the water might cool from 120 F to 30+(120-30)exp(-48/188) = 100 F. It might be kept filled with rainwater, or with a float valve, like a toilet tank, for a gravity-feed hot water supply. Where I live, with 2 layers of polycarbonate glazing, it might collect about 1200Btu/ft^2-dayx0.81×32ft^2×1.4 = 44K Btu/day of sun and lose about 6h(120-30)32ft^2/R2 = 8,640 Btu, for a net gain of 35K Btu/day at 120 F, enough for about 5 5 minute 3 gpm 50-110 F showers/day. Nick

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GBBoy I’m I glad you got into this.solar water heater tank wisconsin  I teach about heat pumps etc. but was GBwilling to take him on, even though I knew he was off base.  Now that GByou say it I remember and it really is very simple.  Thanks for being GBthere. anytime! InterLine: Linking the World’s Electric Utilities P.O. Box 3455,solar water heater tank wisconsin

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60solar water heater tank wisconsin.  And high SEER condensers are already adequate.  These things just don’t make economic sense at all, particularly when compared to other alternative water heaters in the same price range, things such as solar heat. A solar collector WILL work most of the year, after all, and takes no additional energy. This is one of those features that would make sense if a mfr built it in at the factory at an added cost of perhaps a couple of hundred dollars but it makes NO sense as an expensive aftermarket add-on.  And it certainly does not provide free heat, as our “friend” claimed in his original post. solar water heater tank wisconsin.  You’re absolutely right, of |course, when you question the idea of using the A/C to bring the water to |full operating temperature of 140 degrees.  What happens, though, when That depends on what the normal operating temperature for the freon coming out of the compressor is. I’ve had a waste heat recovery system installed on my AC. The water coming out of it seems plenty hot, at least 140 degrees.solar water heater tank wisconsin. From an old FEERC pamplet I dug out of the files, it is claimed that an average water heater loses 2% of its energy input a day, no conditions specified of course.

2% per day can’t be idle losses; it takes a lot less than 50 days for a water heater to cool to ambient after it is turned off.  It has to be a fraction of total energy use. Someone mentioned well water coming out of the ground in the 50s.  A MUCH cheaper method of “reclaiming” energy from the ambient is to simply plumb in a water-to-air heat exchanger in your cold water system.

And a solar water heater would work fine too.  However, it would not do anything to reduce the heat loading of the A/C condenser and reduce its electrical consumption.  These may have a faster payback than a solar heater if you use a lot of air conditioning and hot water.  If your needs are biased strongly towards A/C with little hot water use, this probably won’t work so well.solar water heater tank wisconsin

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I happen to like a hot shower when I’m sweaty and grimy.solar water heater tank wisconsin  Then I like to relax in dehumidified air.  An A/C heat recovery system sounds great to me.

It is a good idea, properly implemented.  I built a heat-pump-based water heater for my first house that did just this using a system designed for the purpose.  It brought the same savings to water heating as heat pumps brought to air heating.  Of course, it only worked in the summer.  In the winter I valved the system over so that water was heated from a coil imbedded in my homemade wood-fired central furnace.  Lots of savings are possible when one has a lot of time and talent but not much money. Not so much if you want to buy gee-whiz gizmos from snake-oil huskters.solar water heater tank wisconsin If I was designing an air-conditioning system for maximum efficiency, I’d either use groundwater as a thermal sink or have a swimming pool for the purpose.  Pre-heating domestic hot water is another “free” benefit.

A swimming pool is worthless.  A 10,000 gal pool will only absorb 83,000 btu per degree rise.  Give it a 30 degree rise, that would be 2.505 million BTU or about 70 hours’ output of a 3.5 ton A/C. I suspect that spray-cooling the A/C condenser is more effective for saving energy, however.  I’ll see if I can get an analysis worked up.solar water heater tank wisconsin  Spray cooling has the advantage of being *very* cheap and usable down to the scale of window A/C units.

No need to pencil-whip this one.  Over 4 years ago I posted the results of my conversion of my A/C units to spray-cooling using greenhouse misters.  The executive summary was that in weather typical of this time of year, mist-cooling cut the power consumption of the condenser by 1/3 as measured by a watt-hour meter connected to it.  The greenhouse mister used 3 gallons per hour so the cost was trivial.  The connection was similarly trivial.  A 24 volt solenoid water valve was connected in parallel to the condenser actuation signal.  The mister head was simply positioned in front of the condenser.  A plastic water slinger was fabricated and attached to the condenser fan to keep it dry.solar water heater tank wisconsin  Total installation cost was <$30. John — Performance Engineering Magazine.  Email to me published at my sole discretion “Freedom’s dirty little secret is that you’re on your own.”   Clarence Thomas

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If I was designing an air-conditioning system for maximum efficiency, I’d either use groundwater as a thermal sink or have a swimming pool for the purpose.  Pre-heating domestic hot water is another “free” benefit. A swimming pool is worthless.  A 10,000 gal pool will only absorb 83,000 btu per degree rise.  Give it a 30 degree rise, that would be 2.505 million BTU or about 70 hours’ output of a 3.5 ton A/C.

A swimming pool will maintain itself below ambient temperature by evaporation, if nothing else interferes.  It will also moderate day/night swings very effectively.  The only penalty is in usefulness of the pool qua pool if you don’t like swimming in water at bathwater temps (I don’t). Some people like their swimming pools warm and even have heaters for them.  Using the pool as the sink for the A/C is a natural for these people, especially since the pool is much cooler than the typical condenser temp and the plumbing cost is small.solar water heater tank wisconsin

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-solar water heater tank wisconsin, but if it were that good.  The temperature in the condenser and thus the temperature available to heat the water in this gadget is dependent on the heat load and the ambient temperature on the condenser.  Just as with water, heat must have some “pressure” to make it flow.  That “pressure” is in the form of condenser superheat.  The amount of super heat is dependent on the machine design.  One of the main ways of achieving high SEER ratings is simply to build in very large, high efficiency condeners so that the hot freon from the compressor will condense at the lowest possible temperature.  A superheat of 5 degrees is typical for high SEER units.  A superheat of 20 degrees of more is common for low SEER units.  A superheat of 10 means that with a 90 degree ambient, the internal temperature in the condenser is 100 degrees. I know from measuring that my SEER 12 unit runs about 10 degrees of superheat.  This varies a bit with ambient temperature but not enough to matter.  So on a 90 degree day, the HOTTEST water I could get from this fraud’s device would be 100 degrees.  I would have to have a hideously inefficient unit to achieve the superheat of 30 degrees necessary to reach my paltry 120 degree water temperature goal. But it gets worse. When do we use our hot water?  For most of us, either in the early morning or the late evening.  What is characteristic about both times?  That’s right, it’s relatively cool outside. With our current average nighttime temperature being around 70 degrees, my 10 degree superheat air conditioner produces 80 degree condenser temperature.  Wow!  Spend $1000 to heat 72 degree water to 80 degrees?  I don’t think so!

This would only be true if the entire condenser were used to heat the water.. (where the gas-liquid phase change happens in the freon)… However, the superheat is the difference in hot gas (Freon) temp from where it leaves the compressor until (just before) it turns into a liquid in the condenser..(actually it is negative superheat or desuperheating).  Next the freon condenses to liquid, releasing a large amount of heat, and at the end of the condenser, the liquid is cooled down a little more, called “subcooling”.  Compared to the actual condensation of the freon (the phase change), the desuperheating phase and the subcooling phase release much smaller amounts of heat.solar water heater tank wisconsin  This is why blended refrigerants (such as the R-400 series) can offer big performance gains in systems with smaller condensers, since the phase change area is increased to most of the condenser (the glide).. and now most of the condenser is rejecting the much higher heat of condensation instead of wasting as much area for subcooling or desuperheating. In a heat-pump or A/C assisted hot water heater, the compressor hot gas is discharged into a coil around the hot water heater…first../ where it is desuperheated some.. It is too hot to condense… So not much heat (compared to the entire A/C process) gets dumped into the hot water tank, but not much heat is needed.. so it works fine for most uses.. But the compressor hot gas discharge is often near 200F (R-22 has a high heat of compression), so the water will eventually got hot enough (ps. it might boil on a real hot day with a cold house (high comp ratio) given enough time… Even if one has a super effecient condenser, and the outside temp is 60F.. There is still hot compressor gas at over 150F to heat the water, given enough time..  Btus used for water heating are usually MUCH less than that needed for space heating (or cooling).. Is it worth it? One has the extra “expense” of the setup to start.. More piping to develop freon leaks later.. (== Expensive serivce calls in most cases which will probably wipe out any savings).. Lots of thermal expansion and contraction going on..which makes leaks also.. Also, a water heater failure turns into an A/C service call as well.. Also, keeping water real hot 150-200F, may cause early failure of the water heater… more stuff (lime, rust, etc) drops out of the water at higher temps and pluggs the heater.. Slow corrosion reactions which eat away things.. run much faster.. typical chemical reactions double in speed for each 10F temp rise… so real hot water may make your heater or plumbing fail in 3-4 years instead of 20-25 years.. A water into freon line leak..solar water heater tank wisconsin. the service of this type system will increase the overall conderser surface area. this would mean lower compression ratio’s and lower power demand! also we use psig not psi to quote system pressures. system pressures are result of indoor temp and outdoor temp or loading of the system. the lower the evaporator load and the cooler the outdoor temp the lower compression ration is. the common hotwater heater run what 140-180? the 170 superheated gas the average temp in my area of north florida of 72 deg. what this system will do is temper the cold water before entering the tank. the recovery system will reduce the amount of cooling load the condersor will need to do. heat pumps do not run high condensing temp to creat heat. on a typical nite of 45 deg the heat content is low. the head of the compressor would depend on the operating space temp or the poor duct design. low air flow would be a cause for high system pressures in heating mode. most of the compressor failures are from poor installing . compressors are constant volume machines and a cooling only or heat pump compressors have the same life hours. solar water heater tank wisconsin.  I would have to have a hideously inefficient unit to achieve the superheat of 30 degrees necessary to reach my paltry 120 degree water temperature goal. But it gets worse. When do we use our hot water?  For most of us, either in the early morning or the late evening.  What is characteristic about both times?  That’s right, it’s relatively cool outside. With our current average nighttime temperature being around 70 degrees, my 10 degree superheat air conditioner produces 80 degree condenser temperature.  Wow!  Spend $1000 to heat 72 degree water to 80 degrees?  I don’t think so! Mikey made the claim in email to me that the unit’s prime purpose is to make up heat lost when the heater sitting ambient.  This makes his claim even more silly.  From an old FEERC pamplet I dug out of the files, it is claimed that an average water heater loses 2% of its energy input a day, no conditions specified of course.  Fair enough.  let’s double that figure.  4%.  If the prototypical water heater described above uses $2.55/month in electricity, then 4% of that would be about 10 cents a month in power savings.  How many centuries to pay back $1000? Someone mentioned well water coming out of the ground in the 50s.  A MUCH cheaper method of “reclaiming” energy from the ambient is to simply plumb in a water-to-air heat exchanger in your cold water system.  This could consist of a length of pipe exposed to the air or the sun or a common hot water radiator.  Cost could range from nothing to perhaps $100. With all the above in mind, it might be useful to recall what Mikey said in his infomercial: My Company is marketing a device that recovers the heat that your AC/Heat Pump compressor wastes.  Asside from the obviuos complaints about Net advertising, I’d like to hear any comments or observations on this idea. The Waste Heat Recovery System was designed to take advantage of how your Heat Pump or A/C works.  When your A/C is running, it uses Freon gas to transfer the heat in your home to the air outside.  The HRU sends this heat directly into your hot water tank instead.  This means that any time your A/C is running, your hot water is free!!  It can be used commercially or residentially, anywhere you need hot water and refridgerated spaces! For every month that the heat pump operates in the cooling mode, our Waste Heat Recovery Unit will provide free hot water – a 100% savings!

100% savings my ass! Does your foot taste that good?solar water heater tank wisconsin

Not yet, Mikey, but keep trying. Tellya what, Mikey.  Just to be excruciatingly fair, I’m more than willing to look at ANY hard facts you might have to support your claims.   Independent testing would be ideal.  Hell, I’ll even look at numbers your company has manufactured.  Do be sure to include the INSTALLED cost of your gizmo (and not some wholesale, FOB the factory price) so we can compute with hard numbers.   I won’t be holding my breath. John — Performance Engineering Magazine.  Email to me published at my sole discretion “Freedom’s dirty little secret is that you’re on your own.”   Clarence Thomas

Response:

Do you use water at 140 degrees, or at (something closer to 100 degrees. As if it has any relevance to the thread, I use water ranging from cold from the tap to 180 degree water directly from the hot water rail into the dishwasher and pressure washer.

Standby losses in a water heater rise proportionally to the temperature. Lower temperatures are recommended for lowest-cost operation, John. Auxiliary heaters are already in most devices which need really hot water anyway (eg. dishwashers), so the thermostat doesn’t need to be cranked to the sky for them. Does anyone claim to have any numbers on the number of scalding/burning injuries/deaths each year from domestic hot water piped directly to user faucets at 140 degrees. I know that infants and geriatrics are more in danger. Hmm, anyone claim to know the number of people who are careless and/or reckless and/or negligent, get hurt or hurt someone and then try to blame it on an inanimate object or substance?

I’m sure all the parents who’ve had a baby bump the tap during a bath are really sympathetic to that point of view, John.  Infants can scald in water you and I would enjoy for a shower.  Ultimately, the setting on the water heater is a human decision, not an inanimate object; it just affects inanimate matter and its potential for harm. This charlatan sent me e-mail claiming that his system doesn’t do anything to raise the condenser temperature and therefore makes 90-110 degree water, depending on ambient conditions.  Importantly, it makes the coldest water during the COLDEST weather – exactly when most people want hot water the most.

This is also when the expense of air-conditioning is smallest… go figure! I happen to like a hot shower when I’m sweaty and grimy.  Then I like to relax in dehumidified air.  An A/C heat recovery system sounds great to me. He claims that the device does not heat water, but only maintains its temperature.

He’s no expert, but he isn’t a charlatan.  He sounds more like a confused layman; further, the sort of devices he’s touting are not new and are See the analysis therein. That’s false, but assuming it is true,solar water heater tank wisconsin  the financial analysis should be interesting if this clown ever posts price figures.

It looked to me like the device should be able to recover a goodly fraction of the compressor’s electric input as hot water (around 70%). If you use a lot of hot water and heat it electrically, it’s a win. (Electricity being so expensive a “fuel”, IMHO only fools do that.) It also can reduce the net electrical consumption of the A/C a bit. Bet he doesn’t.  These hawksters invariably get caught on that old bitch of a thermodynamic principle that you can’t push heat uphill without expending energy. solar water heater tank wisconsin

I think you missed the point, that the heat is already “going uphill”, that the compressor outlet vapor is superheated to a considerable extent and is thus much hotter than the saturation temperature for the outlet pressure, and a desuperheater can produce hot water for domestic use.  For most of what I use hot water for, 110 F is more than hot enough; the only thing for which I need really hot water is dishwashing, and my dishwasher has a heating element for that.solar water heater tank wisconsin If I was designing an air-conditioning system for maximum efficiency, I’d either use groundwater as a thermal sink or have a swimming pool for the purpose.  Pre-heating domestic hot water is another “free” benefit. I suspect that spray-cooling the A/C condenser is more effective for saving energy, however.  I’ll see if I can get an analysis worked up.solar water heater tank wisconsin

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what these “something for nothing” machines do. [excellent discussion of regrigeration deleted] So how about using the same freon-to-water heat exchanger before the condenser, but use the preheated (to 100 F) water to feed the regular water heater as is done with solar preheaters?  You don’t shorten the compressor lifetime but you do get some energy recovery.  Whether or not this would be cost effective goes back to the old question of which uses the most energy in a water heater:solar water heater tank wisconsin   heating the water or keeping it hot.

That works well and costs very little if you do your own work.  A heat exchanger (a length of two concentric copper tubes coiled up and insulating foam-potted inside a 5 gal paint can works well) and an extra water heater tank works well.  You can set it up for convection circulation so that no pump is needed.  Where this would really excel would be with a tankless water heater.  These things work much better when the incoming water is near ambient. Another approach that works REAL well is to add what amounts to another small heat pump in cascade but one designed for the high temperature service. This device extracts heat from the main heatpump high side and pumps it to a storage tank.solar water heater tank wisconsin  This configuration brings the same benefit to water heating over resistance heat as a heat pump does to home heat.  And with an aux air evaporator, the unit can heat water even when the A/C isn’t running.  The only problem is, I don’t know of a ready-made unit of this type.  I built one several years ago to experiment with but I’ve never seen one advertised. John — Performance Engineering Magazine.  Email to me published at my sole discretion “Freedom’s dirty little secret is that you’re on your own.solar water heater tank wisconsin

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: This is an utter lie and you, sir, are a fraud.  Anyone with even a : rudimentary understanding of refrigeration can instantly recognize : your fraud.  Until and unless your spiffy little company figures : out how to repeal the basic laws of thermodynamics, increasing : the temperature and thus the head on the high side of a refrigeration : system causes the power consumption to INCREASE.  That is exactly : what these “something for nothing” machines do. [mucho stuff deleted] : John I think you’re being a bit harsh, John.  You’re absolutely right, of course, when you question the idea of using the A/C to bring the water to full operating temperature of 140 degrees.  What happens, though, when you heat it only part way with the A/C?  My well water is about 50 degrees.  If that were heated to perhaps 100 with the A/C, and then to 140 with resistance heating, more than half the energy to heat the water woould be essentially free.  Moreover, the condenser cooling fan would not have to operate at all.  It would definitely save energy.  There is a problem, though.solar water heater tank wisconsin  I use only a limited amount of hot water, and I’m going to need lots more cooling water than that.  I suppose I could still save something by either dumping the heated water somewhere or cooling it off before heating it up again (but then that’s what cooling towers are for, isn’t it?)  Still, for someone who needs lots of hot water this would work just fine. solar water heater tank wisconsin

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solar water heater tank wisconsin.  I called ‘em to find out the cost.  After using a crowbar to get it out of ‘em, they estimated the installed cost to be in the $1000 range.  Based on some figures I have around here taken from an instrumented electric water heater I tested a few years ago, the payout on such a device would range in the centuries. Let’s see if he comes back with some hard facts instead of wild claims. Bet he doesn’t.  These hawksters invariably get caught on that old bitch of a thermodynamic principle that you can’t push heat uphill without expending energy.  Guess he should stick to informercials. That way intended victims can’t talk back. John — Performance Engineering Magazine.  Email to me published at my sole discretion “Freedom’s dirty little secret is that you’re on your own.”solar water heater tank wisconsin

Response:

I do not wish to be counted among the supporters of commercial advertising on discussion groups on the net, but there were some omissions in jgd’s response to the original which change (reverse) his conclusion.  As the de facto resident thermogoddamnicist, I feel obligated to spell out the gory details.solar water heater tank wisconsin  (Y’all know by now that posting this sort of thing is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. The Waste Heat Recovery System was designed to take advantage of how your Heat Pump or A/C works.  When your A/C is running, it uses Freon gas to transfer the heat in your home to the air outside.  The HRU sends this heat directly into your hot water tank instead.  This means that any time your A/C is running, your hot water is free!! This is an utter lie and you, sir, are a fraud.  Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of refrigeration can instantly recognize your fraud.  Until and unless your spiffy little company figures out how to repeal the basic laws of thermodynamics, increasing the temperature and thus the head on the high side of a refrigeration system causes the power consumption to INCREASE.  That is exactly what these “something for nothing” machines do.

Not so, John.  The gas at the compressor outlet is not at the saturation temperature for its pressure; it is considerably superheated.  This allows water heating without any increase in the compressor head pressure or outlet temperature. solar water heater tank wisconsin. My water faucet in the shower will not allow pure hot water to flow. (It’s one of those new ones that is just one knob.)  I need the water to be at least 125 in the hot water heater to make the shower warm enough.  I know, because I tried.   With regard to infants and scalding, it is recommended by various groups to reduce the temperature of the water, which I did, until it was not warm enough in the shower for me.  Also note that if you are using cloth diapers, hot water is definitely necessary in washing them to make sure that they are clean and all the germs are killed.   Taking all of the above into account, I would say that John is correct in saying that the water temperature is around 140, at least 125, and that heating it with the compressed freon tubes is not going to be enough.  Pre-heating the water does not seem like it would be worthwhile.  If you live in a place where your air conditioning is going to be on enough to make it worthwhile, get some solar panels, and heat your water that way. solar water heater tank wisconsin

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John, Do you use water at 140 degrees, or at (something closer to 100 degrees. I didn’t ask what your water-heater’s thermostat was. I didn’t ask about the water your dishwasher uses (it probably has an auxiliary heater anyway). Does anyone claim to have any numbers on the number of scalding/burning injuries/deaths each year from domestic hot water piped directly to user faucets at 140 degrees. I know that infants and geriatrics are more in danger.

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My Company is marketing a device that recovers the heat that your AC/Heat Pump compressor wastes.  Asside from the obviuos complaints about Net advertising, I’d like to hear any comments or observations on this idea. The Waste Heat Recovery System was designed to take advantage of how your Heat Pump or A/C works.  When your A/C is running, it uses Freon gas to transfer the heat in your home to the air outside.  The HRU sends this heat directly into your hot water tank instead.  This means that any time your A/C is running, your hot water is free!!  It can be used commercially or residentially, anywhere you need hot water and refridgerated spaces! For every month that the heat pump operates in the cooling mode, our Waste Heat Recovery Unit will provide free hot water – a 100% savings!  In addition to absolutely free hot water, the operation of the HRU increases the efficiency of the heat pump by one SEER unit!  You can easily calculate the added savings from this side benefit.  During the heating season, savings range from 15% – 40%, depending upon a variety of factors. The energy guide with your home Water Heater will tell you about how much it costs you to heat water for 2 people with that heater.  Compare this to the number of people in your home (children use more hot water) to see how much this could save you! The installation of the HRU does require an HVAC technician.     Mike Mayberry — Need ANYTHING that will save you power?? Advanced Energy Technology WILL get it Call Weekdays Between 9am and 9pm Eastern Standard (East Coast) Time

Response:

My Company is marketing a device that recovers the heat that your AC/Heat Pump compressor wastes.  Asside from the obviuos complaints about Net advertising, I’d like to hear any comments or observations on this idea.

[...]  This means that any time your A/C is running, your hot water is free!! . . .  our Waste Heat Recovery Unit will provide free hot water – a 100% savings!  In addition to absolutely free hot water,

[...] It seems an odd business concept, to be giving away these heat recovery units for free.  The normal organization of a business would see it *sell* its product or service, or trade it for some other valuable commodity.solar water heater tank wisconsin.  Until and unless your spiffy little company figures out how to repeal the basic laws of thermodynamics, increasing the temperature and thus the head on the high side of a refrigeration system causes the power consumption to INCREASE.  That is exactly what these “something for nothing” machines do. Let’s run some numbers for those unfamiliar with refrigeration.   Air conditioning works by boiling a refrigerant – normally R-22 – in an evaporator and then collecting the vapor, doing work on it by compressing it thereby raising its temperature, and then cooling it in a condenser until it turns back into a liquid.  The pressures in the high side (condenser) and low side (evaporator) are proportional to the temperature on each and follow the refrigerant’s vapor pressure curve.  If I know the pressure on either side, I can predict the temperature and vice versa by looking at a temperature-pressure table for the refrigerant.  The amount of work required to compress the vapor back to a liquid is proportional to (among other things) the ratio of the high and low side pressures.  The wider the difference, the more work required and therefore the more electrical energy consumed.  High efficiency units achieve the high efficiency by (among other techniques) increasing the size of the condenser and/or the air flow so that the heat can be rejected at a lower temperature and thus a lower pressure.  A SEER 14 unit will have a larger condenser coil than a SEER 10, for example. Example:  My SEER 12 A/C runs a high side pressure of about 180 psi on a 90 degree day.  That corresponds to a condensing temperature of about 100 degrees.  A SEER 10 unit with a smaller condenser might run a high side of 250 psi/ 118 degrees to get rid of the same heat load. What these “free energy” water heaters do is inject a freon-to-water heat exchanger in the high side line before the normal condenser.  The freon condenses and gives up its heat to the water instead of to the air. So far, so good.  The problem is, no one wants 100 degree water. We want typically 140 degree or more water.  The only way to condense freon at 140 degrees is to compress it sufficiently, in this case, to 375 psi.   Greatly simplified, the power consumption of the compressor is proportional to the difference between the inlet and outlet pressures.  This is a liberal model because it ignores the loss in volumetric efficiency with increasing compression ratios but it’s good enough for this context.  Let’s estimate what the effect of taking my SEER 12 A/C and hanging a 140 degree “free” water heater off it would be.  My low side pressure runs about 70 psi which corresponds to about 40 degrees.  Without the water heater, the pressure ratio would be (from above) 180 psi/ 70 = 2.57.  At 140 degrees the ratio would be 375 / 70 = 5.35.  Thus, I would expect the power consumption to roughly double.  It won’t quite double in practice because of the fixed losses from windage and electrical losses, and the diminished volumetric efficiency at higher ratios reduces the heat pumped but this gross simplification illustrates the point. In the real world, what typically happens is the lose in VE results in the compressor drawing about the same power but the cooling capacity of the system is greatly diminished. Guess that’s OK if one doesn’t mind a hot house. But energy consumption isn’t the only problem.  The much higher temperature the compressor is subjected to shortens its life. It is not uncommon on a reciprocating compressor subjected to high condensing temperatures, to see a heavy carbon buildup on the head and exhaust valve where the temerpature has risen enough to carburize the oil.  This is the reason heat pumps, which must work against high condensing temperatures when in the heat mode in order to make the duct air feel warm, have a bad rap for short compressor life.  It is true.  Compressors don’t last as long as cooling-only systems. In addition to absolutely free hot water, the operation of the HRU increases the efficiency of the heat pump by one SEER unit!

More utter rubbish.  Oh, I can contrive a situation where this might hold up, say an AC operating in the Arizona desert in the sun with a condensing temperature of 150 deg or more compared to this unit heating water to 140 degrees.  But such contrivances constitute fraud for most of us. The only thing I can say good about these things is that it heats water cheaper than pure resistance heating for the same reason that heat pumps are cheaper to operate than resistance heating. Just be sure to sell the house right BEFORE the compressor goes out! John — Performance Engineering Magazine.  Email to me published at my sole discretion “Freedom’s dirty little secret is that you’re on your own.solar water heater tank wisconsin  My Company is marketing a device that recovers the heat that your AC/Heat Pump compressor wastes.  Asside from the obviuos complaints about Net advertising, I’d like to hear any comments or observations on this idea. The Waste Heat Recovery System was designed to take advantage of how your Heat Pump or A/C works.  When your A/C is running, it uses Freon gas to transfer the heat in your home to the air outside.  The HRU sends this heat directly into your hot water tank instead.  This means that any time your A/C is running, your hot water is free!!  It can be used commercially or residentially, anywhere you need hot water and refridgerated spaces! For every month that the heat pump operates in the cooling mode, our Waste Heat Recovery Unit will provide free hot water – a 100% savings!   This is an utter lie and you, sir, are a fraud.  Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of refrigeration can instantly recognize your fraud.  Until and unless your spiffy little company figures out how to repeal the basic laws of thermodynamics, increasing the temperature and thus the head on the high side of a refrigeration system causes the power consumption to INCREASE.  That is exactly what these “something for nothing” machines do. solar water heater tank wisconsin

[excellent discussion of regrigeration deleted] So how about using the same freon-to-water heat exchanger before the condenser, but use the preheated (to 100 F) water to feed the regular water heater as is done with solar preheaters?  You don’t shorten the compressor lifetime but you do get some energy recovery.solar water heater tank wisconsin  Whether or not this would be cost effective goes back to the old question of which uses the most energy in a water heater:  heating the water or keeping it hot. solar water heater tank wisconsin

Response:

Question:

Hi friends I’m understand a little bit of this question. But i have a idee.multi solar water heater tank
passive solar water heater tank  Earth colector for cooling! For a earth cooling system, it needs: a field of 100 x 100 meters 1000 meters of a perforated air tube or a system of builded chanels with rocks. 500 m/3 of splitted rocks a airexganger with a capacity of 2 KW a Ventilator of 50 Watt I think the system will go on! greetings from Affoltern am Albis Edoardo thanks for you reaction – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any help, observations, and corrective critisism would be appreciated!! The house will be located either in TN (3600 degree) or NY (6800 degree year). It will be 24×36 with 8′ ceilings (864 sq. ft).  Should be R20 walls and R40 roof.  2 sets of Double pane sliding glass doors on the south side. 1 triple pane window on north side (for cross ventilation), 1 on west side for bedroom. Objective would be to maintain 75-80*F inside (winter) and 80-85*F max. (summer). I would like to heat and cool it using mostly solar and thermal storage.  I’ve been reading every library book I can get on these topics and was thinking of the following: 1a. Either 1600 gallon tank surrounded by 50 tons of fist size rocks in an insulated 10×25x7′h bin (underground).  And use forced air thru the rocks to heat the house and solar water heaters to heat the water (which heats the rocks). (seen in a library book) OR.. Using a 3000+ gallon insulated tank (underground) heated/charged all summer by solar water heaters, and use zoned radiant floor heat in winter. ((both would be using a heat exchanger and anti-freeze to heat the big tank of plain water)) 1b.  If 2nd senario is better, would 3000 gallons be enough?  Would it be better to use the water up, or allow it to recirculate back into the tank? 1c.  How many 4×10 solar water heaters would I need to heat the tank? 2.  Does a solar water heater using anti-freeze and heat exchanger still heat water when the ambient temperature outside is below freezing? 3. Would (4) 4×10 or (1) 8×20 solar air or water heaters be more efficient? COOLING…. 4.  I was thinking of going with an earthtube ((2) 12″ dia. x 300′ L) leading into a rock bin (maybe 20′Lx6′wx6′h) then entering the house via HVAC ducting. Would this be enough to cool the house in 90+ degree weather? 5.  There was a reference to an article by Harry E Thomason, ASHRAE Journal, Nov. 1962, pages 58-62, called “Solar-Heated House Uses 3/4 HP for Air Conditioning”  (something to do with a compressor)passive solar water heater tank .  I couldn’t find on the net or library, does anyone know if it’s something worth using?multi solar water heater tank
Thanks in advance for any help!passive solar water heater tank

Response:

Good luck on this one.multi solar water heater tank
passive solar water heater tank   What is your budget?  With as small a house as you are thinking about you could have a “solar system with a house attached” instead of a “house with solar”.  Solar is great but if you try to get it to work on tiny stuff it is not really cost effective.  For a small house lets say you use 2 cords of wood costing $100 each.  That’s $200 for a heating season.  If you use solar it is free minus the electricity to run the pumps, say $50 for a season.  So it looks like solar wins by $150 per season.  Well don’t forget to add in the cost of the wood stove and the cost of the collector/storage system.  You could spend $1000 on a system easy and at $150 per season that means the break even point is (1000-200stove)/150=5.3 years.  How long do you plan on living there? You really need to look at the heat loss equations when doing an underground storage tank of any kind.  Even with R-100+ you can’t store 100 deg water for more than a couple of days before it comes down to ambient temp.  Trying to store heat from summer to winter is best left to the ground cycle heat pumps and the like.  Of course you could use a vacuum flask. Good luck.multi solar water heater tank

passive solar water heater tank This sounds like a great project.  Building a “solar” house from the ground up is something I’ve thought about for a long time, and hope to do one of these years.  I have some comments below. Any help, observations, and corrective critisism would be appreciated!! The house will be located either in TN (3600 degree) or NY (6800 degree year). It will be 24×36 with 8′ ceilings (864 sq. ft).  Should be R20 walls Have you looked at straw bale building?  This is a very low-tech and low-cost way of building R40 walls without using huge amounts of lumber. It’s an old building method that’s regaining favour.  Since you’re already thinking unconventionally (seems a rare thing in the construction industry),passive solar water heater tank  you might consider straw bale construction as another way to make your house more “renewable” and “sustainable”. 1a. Either 1600 gallon tank surrounded by 50 tons of fist size rocks in an insulated 10×25x7′h bin (underground).  And use forced air thru the rocks to heat the house and solar water heaters to heat the water (which heats the rocks). (seen in a library book) OR.. Using a 3000+ gallon insulated tank (underground) heated/charged all summer by solar water heaters, and use zoned radiant floor heat in wintermulti solar water heater tank
. ((both would be using a heat exchanger and anti-freeze to heat the big tank of plain water)) 1b.  If 2nd senario is better, would 3000 gallons be enough?  Would it be better to use the water up, or allow it to recirculate back into the tank? Storing heat in the summer for use in the winter is called “seasonal” or “annual” storage.  I don’t think 3000 gallons would be enough.  I’ve done some simple figuring on the amount of storage required to heat my house for the winter, and I came up with something more along the lines of 40,000 gallons.  However, I’m up in Ontario,passive solar water heater tank  Canada, and I have a leaky old house, so you’ll probably not need as much.  Still, you’ll need more than 3000 gallons, and you’ll have to insulate it extremely well (along the lines of R40 or better). Seasonal storage seems to be almost never done, presumably because it’s very difficult (though it’s not impossible).  I’ve been toying with the idea of an above-ground seasonal storage “pile” — basically a big pile of dirt with imbedded piping for moving the heat in and out, and insulated with a double layer of straw bales.  So far, though, it’s only been toying with the idea, not with huge piles of dirt.   1c.  How many 4×10 solar water heaters would I need to heat the tank? More is more.  :)  I would guess you’d want at least half a dozen. 2.  Does a solar water heater using anti-freeze and heat exchanger still heat water when the ambient temperature outside is below freezing? If it’s sunny, yes.  Depends on how sunny your area is in the winter. 3. Would (4) 4×10 or (1) 8×20 solar air or water heaters be more efficient? If the panels are going to be an integral part of your house, then I think you should just build them in whatever way is most convenient. Let us know how your thinking progresses. Regards, passive solar water heater tank

Response:

This sounds like a great project.  Building a “solar” house from the ground up is something I’ve thought about for a long time, and hope to do one of these years.  I have some comments below.

Any help, observations, and corrective critisism would be appreciated!!passive solar water heater tank  The house will be located either in TN (3600 degree) or NY (6800 degree year). It will be 24×36 with 8′ ceilings (864 sq. ft).  Should be R20 walls

Have you looked at straw bale building?  This is a very low-tech and low-cost way of building R40 walls without using huge amounts of lumber. It’s an old building method that’s regaining favour.  Since you’re already thinking unconventionally (seems a rare thing in the construction industry), you might consider straw bale construction as another way to make your house more “renewable” and “sustainable”. 1a. Either 1600 gallon tank surrounded by 50 tons of fist size rocks in an insulated 10×25x7′h bin (underground).  And use forced air thru the rocks to heat the house and solar water heaters to heat the water (which heats the rocks). (seen in a library book) OR..multi solar water heater tank
Using a 3000+ gallon insulated tank (underground) heated/charged all summer by solar water heaters, and use zoned radiant floor heat in winter. ((both would be using a heat exchanger and anti-freeze to heat the big tank of plain water)) 1b.  If 2nd senario is better,passive solar water heater tank  would 3000 gallons be enough?  Would it be better to use the water up, or allow it to recirculate back into the tank?

Storing heat in the summer for use in the winter is called “seasonal” or “annual” storage.  I don’t think 3000 gallons would be enough.  I’ve done some simple figuring on the amount of storage required to heat my house for the winter, and I came up with something more along the lines of 40,000 gallons.  However, I’m up in Ontario, Canada, and I have a leaky old house, so you’ll probably not need as much.  Still, you’ll need more than 3000 gallons, and you’ll have to insulate it extremely well (along the lines of R40 or better).passive solar water heater tank  Seasonal storage seems to be almost never done, presumably because it’s very difficult (though it’s not impossible).  I’ve been toying with the idea of an above-ground seasonal storage “pile” — basically a big pile of dirt with imbedded piping for moving the heat in and out, and insulated with a double layer of straw bales.  So far, though, it’s only been toying with the idea,multi solar water heater tank
not with huge piles of dirt.   1c.  How many 4×10 solar water heaters would I need to heat the tank?

More is more. passive solar water heater tank   I would guess you’d want at least half a dozen. 2.  Does a solar water heater using anti-freeze and heat exchanger still heat water when the ambient temperature outside is below freezing?

If it’s sunny, yes.  Depends on how sunny your area is in the winter. 3. Would (4) 4×10 or (1) 8×20 solar air or water heaters be more efficient?

If the panels are going to be an integral part of your house, then I think you should just build them in whatever way is most convenientmulti solar water heater tank
. Let us know how your thinking progresses.passive solar water heater tank

Response:

passive solar water heater tank, observations, and corrective critisism would be appreciated!! The house will be located either in TN (3600 degree) or NY (6800 degree year). It will be 24×36 with 8′ ceilings (864 sq. ft).multi solar water heater tank
Should be R20 walls and R40 roof.  2 sets of Double pane sliding glass doors on the south side. 1 triple pane window on north side (for cross ventilation), 1 on west side for bedroom. Objective would be to maintain 75-80*F inside (winter) and 80-85*F max. (summer). I would like to heat and cool it using mostly solar and thermal storage.  I’ve been reading every library book I can get on these topics and was thinking of the following: 1a. Either 1600 gallon tank surrounded by 50 tons of fist size rocks in an insulated 10×25x7′h bin (underground).  And use forced air thru the rocks to heat the house and solar water heaters to heat the water (which heats the rocks). (seen in a library book) OR.. Using a 3000+ gallon insulated tank (underground) heated/charged all summer by solar water heaters, and use zoned radiant floor heat in winter. ((both would be using a heat exchanger and anti-freeze to heat the big tank of plain water)) 1b.  If 2nd senario is better, would 3000 gallons be enough?  Would it be better to use the water up, or allow it to recirculate back into the tank? 1c.  How many 4×10 solar water heaters would I need to heat the tank? 2.  Does a solar water heater using anti-freeze and heat exchanger still heat water when the ambient temperature outside is below freezing? 3. Would (4) 4×10 or (1) 8×20 solar air or water heaters be more efficient? COOLING…. 4.  I was thinking of going with an earthtube ((2) 12″ dia. x 300′ L) leading into a rock bin (maybe 20′Lx6′wx6′h) then entering the house via HVAC ducting. Would this be enough to cool the house in 90+ degree weather? 5.  There was a reference to an article by Harry E Thomason, ASHRAE Journal, Nov. 1962, pages 58-62, called “Solar-Heated House Uses 3/4 HP for Air Conditioning”  (something to do with a compressor).  I couldn’t find on the net or library, does anyone know if it’s something worth using?multi solar water heater tank
Thanks in advance for any help! passive solar water heater tank

David, if your take the cost ect. then I advise: Microturbine, cooling and heating in ones abd selling the additional el. power. Beside, we are working on that in an even smaller size: 4 Kw el. 10 Kw heating, about 8 KW cooling. All the best         chris

Response:

Any help, observations, and corrective critisism would be appreciated!! The house will be located either in TN (3600 degree) or NY (6800 degree year). It will be 24×36 with 8′ ceilings (864 sq. ft).  Should be R20 walls and R40 roof.  2 sets of Double pane sliding glass doors on the south side. 1 triple pane window on north side (for cross ventilation), 1 on west side for bedroom. Objective would be to maintain 75-80*F inside (winter) and 80-85*F max. (summer). I would like to heat and cool it using mostly solar and thermal storage. …..

I live in TN, heat with solar & wood and nave no air conditioning.  I doubt if my house ever gets as hot as 85 in the summer.  Fans, aluminum roof and porches on 4 sides shading the house all contribute. In the winter, the problem with thermal storage is that it runs out when you have a week of clouds.  OTOH, a couple of logs in the woodstove will do more faster than many tons of thermal storage.  I just don’t think thermal storage is economical beyond 2 days. — Committees of Correspondence Web page: passive solar water heater tank

Response:

Any help, observations, and corrective critisism would be appreciated!! The house will be located either in TN (3600 degree) or NY (6800 degree year). It will be 24×36 with 8′ ceilings (864 sq. ft).  Should be R20 walls and R40 roof.  2 sets of Double pane sliding glass doors on the south side. 1 triple pane window on north side (for cross ventilation), 1 on west side for bedroom. Objective would be to maintain 75-80*F inside (winter) and 80-85*F max. (summer).multi solar water heater tank
I would like to heat and cool it using mostly solar and thermal storage.  I’ve been reading every library book I can get on these topics and was thinking of the following: 1a. Either 1600 gallon tank surrounded by 50 tons of fist size rocks in an insulated 10×25x7′h bin (underground).  And use forced air thru the rocks to heat the house and solar water heaters to heat the water (which heats the rocks). (seen in a library book) OR.. Using a 3000+ gallon insulated tank (underground) heated/charged all summer by solar water heaters, and use zoned radiant floor heat in winter. ((both would be using a heat exchanger and anti-freeze to heat the big tank of plain water)) 1b.  If 2nd senario is better, would 3000 gallons be enough?  Would it be better to use the water up, or allow it to recirculate back into the tank? 1c.  How many 4×10 solar water heaters would I need to heat the tank? 2.  Does a solar water heater using anti-freeze and heat exchanger still heat water when the ambient temperature outside is below freezing? 3. Would (4) 4×10 or (1) 8×20 solar air or water heaters be more efficient? COOLING…. 4.  I was thinking of going with an earthtube ((2) 12″ dia. x 300′ L) leading into a rock bin (maybe 20′Lx6′wx6′h) then entering the house via HVAC ducting. Would this be enough to cool the house in 90+ degree weather? 5.  There was a reference to an article by Harry E Thomason,passive solar water heater tank  ASHRAE Journal, Nov. 1962, pages 58-62, called “Solar-Heated House Uses 3/4 HP for Air Conditioning”  (something to do with a compressor).  I couldn’t find on the net or library, does anyone know if it’s something worth using? Thanks in advance for any help! passive solar water heater tank

Response:

This sounds like a great project.  Building a “solar” house from the ground up is something I’ve thought about for a long time, and hope to do one of these years.multi solar water heater tank
I have some comments below.

Any help, observations, and corrective critisism would be appreciated!! The house will be located either in TN (3600 degree) or NY (6800 degree year). It will be 24×36 with 8′ ceilings (864 sq. ft).  Should be R20 walls

Have you looked at straw bale building?  This is a very low-tech and low-cost way of building R40 walls without using huge amounts of lumber. It’s an old building method that’s regaining favour.  Since you’re already thinking unconventionally (seems a rare thing in the construction industry), you might consider straw bale construction as another way to make your house more “renewable” and “sustainable”. 1a. Either 1600 gallon tank surrounded by 50 tons of fist size rocks in an insulated 10×25x7′h bin (underground).  And use forced air thru the rocks to heat the house and solar water heaters to heat the water (which heats the rocks). (seen in a library book) OR.. Using a 3000+ gallon insulated tank (underground) heated/charged all summer by solar water heaters, and use zoned radiant floor heat in winter. ((both would be using a heat exchanger and anti-freeze to heat the big tank of plain water)) 1b.  If 2nd senario is better, would 3000 gallons be enough?passive solar water heater tank   Would it be better to use the water up, or allow it to recirculate back into the tank?multi solar water heater tank

Storing heat in the summer for use in the winter is called “seasonal” or “annual” storage.  I don’t think 3000 gallons would be enough.  I’ve done some simple figuring on the amount of storage required to heat my house for the winter, and I came up with something more along the lines of 40,000 gallons.  However,multi solar water heater tank
I’m up in Ontario, Canada, and I have a leaky old house, so you’ll probably not need as much.  Still, you’ll need more than 3000 gallons, and you’ll have to insulate it extremely well (along the lines of R40 or better). Seasonal storage seems to be almost never done, presumably because it’s very difficult (though it’s not impossible).  I’ve been toying with the idea of an above-ground seasonal storage “pile” — basically a big pile of dirt with imbedded piping for moving the heat in and out, and insulated with a double layer of straw bales.  So far, though, it’s only been toying with the idea, not with huge piles of dirt.  passive solar water heater tank.  How many 4×10 solar water heaters would I need to heat the tank?

More is more.passive solar water heater tank  I would guess you’d want at least half a dozen. 2.multi solar water heater tank
Does a solar water heater using anti-freeze and heat exchanger still heat water when the ambient temperature outside is below freezing?

If it’s sunny, yes.  Depends on how sunny your area is in the winter. 3. Would (4) 4×10 or (1) 8×20 solar air or water heaters be more efficient?

If the panels are going to be an integral part of your house,multi solar water heater tank
then I think you should just build them in whatever way is most convenient. Let us know how your thinking progresses. passive solar water heater tank

Response:

Any help, observations, and corrective critisism would be appreciated!! The house will be located either in TN (3600 degree) or NY (6800 degree year). It will be 24×36 with 8′ ceilings (864 sq. ft).  Should be R20 walls and R40 roof.  2 sets of Double pane sliding glass doors on the south side. 1 triple pane window on north side (for cross ventilation), 1 on west side for bedroom. Objective would be to maintain 75-80*F inside (winter) and 80-85*F max. (summer).passive solar water heater tank  I would like to heat and cool it using mostly solar and thermal storage.multi solar water heater tank
I’ve been reading every library book I can get on these topics and was thinking of the following: 1a. Either 1600 gallon tank surrounded by 50 tons of fist size rocks in an insulated 10×25x7′h bin (underground).  And use forced air thru the rocks to heat the house and solar water heaters to heat the water (which heats the rocks). (seen in a library book) OR.. Using a 3000+ gallon insulated tank (underground) heated/charged all summer by solar water heaters, and use zoned radiant floor heat in winter. ((both would be using a heat exchanger and anti-freeze to heat the big tank of plain water)) 1b.  If 2nd senario is better, would 3000 gallons be enough?  Would it be better to use the water up, or allow it to recirculate back into the tank? 1c.  How many 4×10 solar water heaters would I need to heat the tank? 2.  Does a solar water heater using anti-freeze and heat exchanger still heat water when the ambient temperature outside is below freezing? 3. Would (4) 4×10 or (1) 8×20 solar air or water heaters be more efficient? COOLING…. 4.  I was thinking of going with an earthtube ((2) 12″ dia. x 300′ L) leading into a rock bin (maybe 20′Lx6′wx6′h) then entering the house via HVAC ducting. Would this be enough to cool the house in 90+ degree weather? 5.  There was a reference to an article by Harry E Thomason, ASHRAE Journal, Nov. 1962, pages 58-62, called “Solar-Heated House Uses 3/4 HP for Air Conditioning”  (something to do with a compressor).  I couldn’t find on the net or library, does anyone know if it’s something worth using? Thanks in advance for any help! passive solar water heater tank

Response:

Hi friends I’m understand a little bit of this question. But i have a idee. Earth colector for cooling! For a earth cooling system, it needs: a field of 100 x 100 meters 1000 meters of a perforated air tube or a system of builded chanels with rocks. 500 m/3 of splitted rocks a airexganger with a capacity of 2 KW a Ventilator of 50 Watt I think the system will go on! greetings from Affoltern am Albis Edoardo thanks for you reaction – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any help, observations, and corrective critisism would be appreciated!! The house will be located either in TN (3600 degree) or NY (6800 degree year). It will be 24×36 with 8′ ceilings (864 sq. ft).  Should be R20 walls and R40 roof.  2 sets of Double pane sliding glass doors on the south side. 1 triple pane window on north side (for cross ventilation), 1 on west side for bedroom. Objective would be to maintain 75-80*F inside (winter) and 80-85*F max. (summer). I would like to heat and cool it using mostly solar and thermal storage.  I’ve been reading every library book I can get on these topics and was thinking of the following: 1apassive solar water heater tank . Either 1600 gallon tank surrounded by 50 tons of fist size rocks in an insulated 10×25x7′h bin (underground).  And use forced air thru the rocks to heat the house and solar water heaters to heat the water (which heats the rocks). (seen in a library book) OR.. Using a 3000+ gallon insulated tank (underground) heated/charged all summer by solar water heaters, and use zoned radiant floor heat in winter. ((both would be using a heat exchanger and anti-freeze to heat the big tank of plain water)) 1b.  If 2nd senario is better, would 3000 gallons be enough?  Would it be better to use the water up, or allow it to recirculate back into the tank? 1c.  How many 4×10 solar water heaters would I need to heat the tank? 2.multi solar water heater tank
Does a solar water heater using anti-freeze and heat exchanger still heat water when the ambient temperature outside is below freezing? 3. Would (4) 4×10 or (1) 8×20 solar air or water heaters be more efficient? COOLING…. 4.  I was thinking of going with an earthtube ((2) 12″ dia. x 300′ L) leading into a rock bin (maybe 20′Lx6′wx6′h) then entering the house via HVAC ducting. Would this be enough to cool the house in 90+ degree weather? 5.  There was a reference to an article by Harry E Thomason, ASHRAE Journal, Nov. 1962, pages 58-62, called “Solar-Heated House Uses 3/4 HP for Air Conditioning”  (something to do with a compressor).  I couldn’t find on the net or library, does anyone know if it’s something worth using? Thanks in advance for any help! passive solar water heater tank

Response:

Good luck on this one.  What is your budget?  With as small a house as you are thinking about you could have a “solar system with a house attached” instead of a “house with solar”.  Solar is great but if you try to get it to work on tiny stuff it is not really cost effective.  For a small house lets say you use 2 cords of wood costing $100 each.  That’s $200 for a heating season.  If you use solar it is free minus the electricity to run the pumps, say $50 for a season.  So it looks like solar wins by $150 per season.  Well don’t forget to add in the cost of the wood stove and the cost of the collector/storage system.  You could spend $1000 on a system easy and at $150 per season that means the break even point is (1000-200stove)/150=5.3 years.  How long do you plan on living there? You really need to look at the heat loss equations when doing an underground storage tank of any kind.  Even with R-100+ you can’t store 100 deg water for more than a couple of days before it comes down to ambient temp.  Trying to store heat from summer to winter is best left to the ground cycle heat pumps and the like.  Of course you could use a vacuum flask. multi solar water heater tank

- This sounds like a great project.  Building a “solar” house from the ground up is something I’ve thought about for a long time, and hope to do one of these years.  I have some comments below. Any help, observations, and corrective critisism would be appreciated!! The house will be located either in TN (3600 degree) or NY (6800 degree year). It will be 24×36 with 8′ ceilings (864 sq. ft).  Should be R20 walls Have you looked at straw bale building?  This is a very low-tech and low-cost way of building R40 walls without using huge amounts of lumber. It’s an old building method that’s regaining favour.  Since you’re already thinking unconventionally (seems a rare thing in the construction industry), you might consider straw bale construction as another way to make your house more “renewable” and “sustainable”. 1a. Either 1600 gallon tank surrounded by 50 tons of fist size rocks in an insulated 10×25x7′h bin (underground).  And use forced air thru the rocks to heat the house and solar water heaters to heat the water (which heats the rocks). (seen in a library book) OR.. Using a 3000+ gallon insulated tank (underground) heated/charged all summer by solar water heaters, and use zoned radiant floor heat in winter. ((both would be using a heat exchanger and anti-freeze to heat the big tank of plain water)) 1b.  If 2nd senario is better, would 3000 gallons be enough?  Would it be better to use the water up, or allow it to recirculate back into the tank? Storing heat in the summer for use in the winter is called “seasonal” or “annual” storage.  I don’t think 3000 gallons would be enough.  I’ve done some simple figuring on the amount of storage required to heat my house for the winter, and I came up with something more along the lines of 40,000 gallons.  However, I’m up in Ontario, Canada, and I have a leaky old house, so you’ll probably not need as much.  Still, you’ll need more than 3000 gallons, and you’ll have to insulate it extremely well (along the lines of R40 or better). Seasonal storage seems to be almost never done, presumably because it’s very difficult (though it’s not impossible).  I’ve been toying with the idea of an above-ground seasonal storage “pile” — basically a big pile of dirt with imbedded piping for moving the heat in and out, and insulated with a double layer of straw bales.  So far, though, it’s only been toying with the idea, not with huge piles of dirt.   1c.  How many 4×10 solar water heaters would I need to heat the tank? More is more.  :)  I would guess you’d want at least half a dozen. 2.  Does a solar water heater using anti-freeze and heat exchanger still heat water when the ambient temperature outside is below freezing?multi solar water heater tank
If it’s sunny, yes.  Depends on how sunny your area is in the winter. 3. Would (4) 4×10 or (1) 8×20 solar air or water heaters be more efficient? If the panels are going to be an integral part of your house, then I think you should just build them in whatever way is most convenient. Let us know how your thinking progresses. Regards, passive solar water heater tank

Response:

Any help, observations, and corrective critisism would be appreciated!! The house will be located either in TN (3600 degree) or NY (6800 degree year). It will be 24×36 with 8′ ceilings (864 sq. ft).  Should be R20 walls and R40 roof.  2 sets of Double pane sliding glass doors on the south side. 1 triple pane window on north side (for cross ventilation), 1 on west side for bedroom. Objective would be to maintain 75-80*F inside (winter) and 80-85*F max. (summer). I would like to heat and cool it using mostly solar and thermal storage. …..

I live in TN, heat with solar & wood and nave no air conditioning.  I doubt if my house ever gets as hot as 85 in the summer.  Fans, aluminum roof and porches on 4 sides shading the house all contribute. In the winter, the problem with thermal storage is that it runs out when you have a week of clouds.  OTOH, a couple of logs in the woodstove will do more faster than many tons of thermal storage.  I just don’t think thermal storage is economical beyond 2 days. — Committees of Correspondence Web page: passive solar water heater tank

Question:

Can someone provide me some good URL’s of DIY solar water heating panels? Searched already more then 2 hours and all what I founded till now was commercial stuff.solar water heater tank parts  Thanks Peter Belgium

Response:

I cant tell you the exact site but it is an australian location.  It gives detailed instructions for building a water heating panel. solar water heater tank parts  Can someone provide me some good URL’s of DIY solar water heating panels? Searched already more then 2 hours and all what I founded till now was commercial stuff. Thanks Peter Belgium

Response:

http://www.webconx.com plans for solar hot water and solar hot air. — -Lawrence LaBranche +-) I filter all Spam using http://www.spamcop.net My website http://www.capdiamont.com . Has our genealogy/ genealogy help, renewable energy links, and LDS links. Renewable Energy Faq for new users solar water heater tank parts  Renewable Energy links http://www.geocities.com/capdiamont/renewable.html Also has how to convert your lawn mower to electric.

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can someone provide me some good URL’s of DIY solar water heating panels? Searched already more then 2 hours and all what I founded till now was commercial stuff. Thanks Peter Belgium

Response:

solar water heater tank parts  Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages – http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation – http://www.webconx.com/x10 (212) 894-3704 x3154 – voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. solar water heater tank parts

- solar water heater tank parts  Can someone provide me some good URL’s of DIY solar water heating panels? Searched already more then 2 hours and all what I founded till now was commercial stuff. Thanks Peter Belgium

Response:

I live in Israel and like almost all homes here we have a solar water heater Which works fine .I also have a back up geezer type gas water heater that can instantly  supply hot water.  My problem is that I have to guess when to switch  between the systems as I  have no way of knowing how much hot water is in the tank  If I guess wrong you end up with half a cold shower.solar water heater tank parts   What I need and I am sure that someone has solved this problem is some sort  of automatic control that can switch between the two systems   Thanks for any information                      Simon

Response:

I live in Israel and like almost all homes here we have a solar water heater Which works fine .I also have a back up geezer type gas water heater that can instantly supply hot water. My problem is that I have to guess when to switch  between the systems as I have no way of knowing how much hot water is in the tank If I guess wrong you end up with half a cold shower.solar water heater tank parts  What I need and I am sure that someone has solved this problem is some sort of automatic control that can switch between the two systems  Thanks for any information                     Simon

If you run your solar water heater through your “instant” backup source then it won’t come on until needed ??

Response:

water going thru it is too hot for it to turn on then it won’t turn on thermostat then you must install one that interrupts the power to your backup heater untill the water going to it drops below a certian make them work together somehow…..a solenoid like the type used on a gas furnace may work if it’s gas….my gas furnace has an auto ignition and no pilot light to worry about good luck…….solar water heater tank parts

solar water heater tank parts I live in Israel and like almost all homes here we have a solar water heater Which works fine .I also have a back up geezer type gas water heater that can instantly supply hot water. My problem is that I have to guess when to switch  between the systems as I have no way of knowing how much hot water is in the tank If I guess wrong you end up with half a cold shower. solar water heater tank parts   What I need and I am sure that someone has solved this problem is some sort of automatic control that can switch between the two systems  Thanks for any information                     Simon If you run your solar water heater through your “instant” backup source then it won’t come on until needed ??

Response: