Question:

Solar Panel Inverter battery   I am new to the world of renewable energy, and I hope I come to the right newsgroup and appreciate if I could get some help from the experts.      I used to own a gasoline generator (Honda EU1000i) to provide back-up power during power outage, or when I was too far away from an AC outlet.  However, since I rent an apartment, keeping a gasoline generator either inside or outside at the balcony isn’t a good idea, and I don’t want to keep breathing gasoline vapor.  As a result, I sold it and tried to go for the battery/inverter solution.  The back-up power system is mainly for obtaining some AC power (probably about 1000W) when there is a power outage under severe weather condition.Solar Panel Inverter battery   I am NOT looking for a solution to run my complete apartment for several days. Also, I am trying to setup the system without emptying my bank account, and would like to have one which costs about the same as the Honda generator.      When I read a recent issue of Home Power, I found out that most systems are huge (solar, wind, hydro, etc.), or is more suitable for homeowner rather than a person trying to build a small back-up power system for a rented apartment.  I did some researh and found some information from the internet, and I’d like to get some opinion from the experts.      Inverter: What are some of the disadvantages of a modified sine-wave inverter?  I looked at the Portawattz 1000 and the PROsine 1000 by Statpower, and the difference in price is closed to $400.  What kind of appliance cannot be run on a modified sine-wave inverter, e.g. TV, light, computer, radio, etc.?  Is it worth spending that extra $400 to get the ultimate pure AC power?  Could I get cleaner AC by running the output of a modified sine-wave inverter to a 1:1 transformer, or is it better to go directly to the PROsine series?      Battery: Are those deep-cycle batteries at Wal-Mart good enough for the system?  The one I found is rated at about 110Ah, and is roughly $60-70, and I could run two in parallel to give me roughly 220Ah.  I also found some from the web, and they are rated at over 300Ah, but is rather expensive.  What are the differences between those deep-cycle batteries that I could find in Home Power magazine, and those that I could find from a local auto store?  Will those from Wal-Mart survive, and what kind of maintenance I should perform to length its life?  Is there a good brand that you recommend?  I know that lead-acid batteries should not be kept inside my apartment, so I intend to keep it at my balcony.  However, I am quite concern about the temperature variation, as it gets quite hot during a summer afternoon due to direct sunlight, and it gets pretty cold during winter.  What kind of option do I have? Also, what are the advantages and disadvantages between 12V and 24V systems?      Charger:  What kind of features should I be looking for when purchasing a charger?  At this point I only have a small 6A auto-battery charger for charging a dead car battery, and I know that it is not good enough to properly treat the batteries for my back-up power system.  I came across the TRUECharge 10 from Statpower.  Is it good enough for my application?  Or should I get one with higher amp rating and better functions like the TRUECharge 20+?  Any recommendation?  Is equalization mode a real necessity?      Sorry for such a long post.  I am really interested in learning more about this technology to set up my small system, but I am not able to find books on this topic, and I don’t have friends who have the knowledge to help me out.  It is even worse that there is no local store specializing in equipment for this type of application.  I really appreciate your help, and hope to hear some constructive suggestions. If you have a good on-line store to purchase the equipment at a good price, please let me know, too. Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

Start at the beginning. What do you want to run and for how long. How many watts for how many hours. I suspect that you may have in mind the fridge in this as well as some lighting. If you dont need the fridge, something like a 80 wat panel and 100 – 200 Ah of batteries will do. for days of light at 12 volt. If you want to run mains stuff then you will need an inverter. a modified sq. wave will do if you dont mind a bit of noise in your music or the possability of a line across your tvs picture. you will also need a charge controller (regulator). Being in a flat (apt.) you might want to look at gell cells for ease of storage and safty. the charger side will depend a lot on how often you need the back up power. rule of thumb is to charge your batteries at the 10 rate (C10) So a 100 ah battery will need a 10 amp charger to recharge your battery. OTOH if you have days or weeks to recharge your battery you could use something less. Solar Panel Inverter battery      I am new to the world of renewable energy, and I hope I come to the right newsgroup and appreciate if I could get some help from the experts.      I used to own a gasoline generator (Honda EU1000i) to provide back-up power during power outage, or when I was too far away from an AC outlet.  However, since I rent an apartment, keeping a gasoline generator either inside or outside at the balcony isn’t a good idea, and I don’t want to keep breathing gasoline vapor.  As a result, I sold it and tried to go for the battery/inverter solution.  The back-up power system is mainly for obtaining some AC power (probably about 1000W) when there is a power outage under severe weather condition.  I am NOT looking for a solution to run my complete apartment for several days. Also, I am trying to setup the system without emptying my bank account, and would like to have one which costs about the same as the Honda generator.      When I read a recent issue of Home Power, I found out that most systems are huge (solar, wind, hydro, etc.), or is more suitable for homeowner rather than a person trying to build a small back-up power system for a rented apartment.  I did some researh and found some information from the internet, and I’d like to get some opinion from the experts.      Inverter: What are some of the disadvantages of a modified sine-wave inverter?  I looked at the Portawattz 1000 and the PROsine 1000 by Statpower, and the difference in price is closed to $400.  What kind of appliance cannot be run on a modified sine-wave inverter, e.g. TV, light, computer, radio, etc.?  Is it worth spending that extra $400 to get the ultimate pure AC power?  Could I get cleaner AC by running the output of a modified sine-wave inverter to a 1:1 transformer, or is it better to go directly to the PROsine series?      Battery: Are those deep-cycle batteries at Wal-Mart good enough for the system?  The one I found is rated at about 110Ah, and is roughly $60-70, and I could run two in parallel to give me roughly 220Ah.  I also found some from the web, and they are rated at over 300Ah, but is rather expensive.  What are the differences between those deep-cycle batteries that I could find in Home Power magazine, and those that I could find from a local auto store?  Will those from Wal-Mart survive, and what kind of maintenance I should perform to length its life?  Is there a good brand that you recommend?  I know that lead-acid batteries should not be kept inside my apartment, so I intend to keep it at my balcony.  However, I am quite concern about the temperature variation, as it gets quite hot during a summer afternoon due to direct sunlight, and it gets pretty cold during winter.  What kind of option do I have? Also, what are the advantages and disadvantages between 12V and 24V systems?      Charger:  What kind of features should I be looking for when purchasing a charger?  At this point I only have a small 6A auto-battery charger for charging a dead car battery, and I know that it is not good enough to properly treat the batteries for my back-up power system.  I came across the TRUECharge 10 from Statpower.  Is it good enough for my application?  Or should I get one with higher amp rating and better functions like the TRUECharge 20+?  Any recommendation?  Is equalization mode a real necessity?      Sorry for such a long post.  I am really interested in learning more about this technology to set up my small system, but I am not able to find books on this topic, and I don’t have friends who have the knowledge to help me out.  It is even worse that there is no local store specializing in equipment for this type of application.  I really appreciate your help, and hope to hear some constructive suggestions. If you have a good on-line store to purchase the equipment at a good price, please let me know, too. Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

…since I rent an apartment, keeping a gasoline generator either inside or outside at the balcony isn’t a good idea…

A tiny Honda seems like a good idea, if you can use the heat. and tried to go for the battery/inverter solution.  The back-up power system is mainly for obtaining some AC power (probably about 1000W) when there is a power outage under severe weather condition.  I am NOT looking for a solution to run my complete apartment for several days. Also, I am trying to setup the system without emptying my bank account, If you dont need the fridge,Solar Panel Inverter battery  something like a 80 wat panel and 100 – 200 Ah of batteries will do. for days of light at 12 volt…

Makes perfect sense. Why charge batteries with 8640 watt-hours per day from a $170 12V 30A Todd battery charger when a $400 PV panel that collects 400 watt-hours per day can make you feel ecological all over? Especially when the first gives you 8 kWh during a storm outage with a 1 day recovery time, and the second takes 20 sunny days to recover… …Are those deep-cycle batteries at Wal-Mart good enough… The one I found is rated at about 110Ah, and is roughly $60-70, and I could run two in parallel to give me roughly 220Ah.

Sounds OK, altho our local golf cart distributor sells Trojan T-105s for $65 each. They might be better batteries. …I know that lead-acid batteries should not be kept inside my apartment,

Why not? so I intend to keep it at my balcony.  However, I am quite concern about the temperature variation, as it gets quite hot during a summer afternoon due to direct sunlight, and it gets pretty cold during winter. What kind of option do I have?

Some sort of Styrofoam box with white latex paint on the outside and a hole at the top to let cooler night air settle in summertime and a light bulb for wintertime heat as needed? Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

I am new to the world of renewable energy, and I hope I come to the right newsgroup and appreciate if I could get some help from the experts.

Solar Panel Inverter battery  If you dont need the fridge, something like a 80 wat panel and 100 – 200 Ah of batteries will do. for days of light at 12 volt… Makes perfect sense. Why charge batteries with 8640 watt-hours per day from a $170 12V 30A Todd battery charger when a $400 PV panel that collects 400 watt-hours per day can make you feel ecological all over? Especially when the first gives you 8 kWh during a storm outage with a 1 day recovery time, and the second takes 20 sunny days to recover…

20 days to recover? What is the daily load? Battery charger. Will keep the battery charged but will not recharge the batteries until the power is restored. If the power only goes out once every two months who cares how long it takes to recharge the batteries, If the power is out for three days that panel will stretch the battery life while the charger is collecting dust. …Are those deep-cycle batteries at Wal-Mart good enough… The one I found is rated at about 110Ah, and is roughly $60-70, and I could run two in parallel to give me roughly 220Ah. Sounds OK, altho our local golf cart distributor sells Trojan T-105s for $65 each. They might be better batteries. …I know that lead-acid batteries should not be kept inside my apartment, Why not?

Its against the law most places. Its dangerous. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – so I intend to keep it at my balcony.  However, I am quite concern about the temperature variation, as it gets quite hot during a summer afternoon due to direct sunlight, and it gets pretty cold during winter. What kind of option do I have? Some sort of Styrofoam box with white latex paint on the outside and a hole at the top to let cooler night air settle in summertime and a light bulb for wintertime heat as needed?Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

…since I rent an apartment, keeping a gasoline generator either inside or outside at the balcony isn’t a good idea… A tiny Honda seems like a good idea, if you can use the heat. What run it under the bed?

No. In a soundproof box on the balcony, with an auto radiator and fan inside, and a 50′ soft copper spiral for the exhaust. His 1 kW Honda makes about 3 kW of heat, ie 10K Btu/h, like a typical kerosine heater, which an 800 Btu/h-F auto radiator could collect with a 10K/800 = 12 F temperature rise. Keeping the box 132 F inside (with a $64 36 watt Grainger 4C688 500 cfm 160 F cooling fan and a $18 2E340 cooling thermostat) would allow collecting 120 F water. That may seem hot for the Honda, but it’s probably fine, in the fan airpath. As a check, he might measure the cylinder fin temp in the box and compare it to the fin temp in still air on a hot day. …The back-up power system is mainly for obtaining some AC power (probably about 1000W) when there is a power outage under severe weather condition.  I am NOT looking for a solution to run my complete apartment for several days. Also, I am trying to setup the system without emptying my bank account,

George blithely replied: If you dont need the fridge, something like a 80 wat panel and 100 – 200 Ah of batteries will do. for days of light at 12 volt… Makes perfect sense. Why charge batteries with 8640 watt-hours per day from a $170 12V 30A Todd battery charger when a $400 PV panel that collects 400 watt-hours per day can make you feel ecological all over? Especially when the first gives you 8 kWh during a storm outage with a 1 day recovery time, and the second takes 20 sunny days to recover… 20 days to recover? What is the daily load?

Zero. A daily load would increase the recovery time– 80 sunny days at 300 Wh/day, 160 at 350, and so on… If the power only goes out once every two months who cares how long it takes to recharge the batteries…

So you’ve perfected weather control down under? …I know that lead-acid batteries should not be kept inside my apartment, Why not? Its against the law most places.

Perhaps that excludes North America. The BOCA code doesn’t mention batteries. Its dangerous.

Alas, so is life. Nick

Response:

Hi Gig,      Thank you very much for your information.  I went to your web site and it’s great.      By the way, what kind of batteries do you have (the red ones in one of your photos)?  Do they produce fumes when charging?  How safe are they to be kept inside an apartment?      Also, I have been experimenting with compact florescent lights, and I bought a GE bulb from Wal-Mart, which is rated at 16W and 700 lumens. I used it to replace a 75W flood light in my bedroom.. However, the light output is not as bright as the flood light.  Am I comparing apple to orange in this situation?  How long do I need to wait for it to give full brightness, and how do I compare the two types of bulbs in terms of wattage translation? Artur 5.29.2000 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to the world of renewable energy, and I hope I come to the right newsgroup and appreciate if I could get some help from the experts. I did exactly what you are asking about, and didn’t use any solar panels… and spent only about $350 for a good, 50 hour, back-up power system… and it was very reliable.. Since I had a home with a yard… Iater.. I expanded this system and got some PV’s and became independent from the grid… but my start, was only for a backup for power outages… All you need are a few large batteries (golf cart or larger 6 volt batteries)… a good inverter… 600 watts… and a good battery charger… and you can have a good power backup system during power outages… I have a webpage with pictures, if you are interested in what I did…      http://geocities.com/solarliving/OfftheGrid.html Gig

Response:

Thank you very much for your information.  I went to your web site and it’s great.

Thank You… By the way, what kind of batteries do you have (the red ones in one of your photos)?  Do they produce fumes when charging?  How safe are they to be kept inside an apartment?

I have mine in the bedroom between the bed and the TV set…  :-D and they are ‘US Battery  2200’s… I liked them better than Trojans mostly because they were a few dollars less… and had a full replacment 24 month warrenty… while Trojan only had a three month full replacement warrenty… If the system over charges… I do get a bit of Hydrogen smell… but it quickly dissapates… now… since I have the TC60 charge controller… there has never been an overcharge… so there is no smell anymore… I can go out of town for several days without worry of damange to the battery array… Also, I have been experimenting with compact florescent lights, and I bought a GE bulb from Wal-Mart, which is rated at 16W and 700 lumens. I used it to replace a 75W flood light in my bedroom..

The Home Depot had some EarthLights CF flood lights… and they were pretty good… I have used the specially made CF Flood lights and they were a good replacement for the hot lights… I also had coffee at  Starbucks  awhile back… and they had all of their ceiling lights replaced with the CF flood lights… It was nice, and cooler… However, the light output is not as bright as the flood light.  Am I comparing apple to orange in this situation?  How long do I need to wait for it to give full brightness, and how do I compare the two types of bulbs in terms of wattage translation? Solar Panel Inverter battery

I thought the special CF floods were about as bright or, almost as bright as the hot bulbs… and they should achieve full brightness in about a minute… the wattage was still low for the CF’s … less than 20 watts… and usually about 16 or 17 watts, was nominal… To show how complacent I have become… I no longer check the voltage in the batteries… I know that they will be fully charged by the PV’s… and I don’t even know  if  a  power  outage  has hit the neighborhood… until I go to the kitchen and see  the  microwave clock blinking… And soon… my microwave will be off the grid, too… so I will not know when an outage hits… Gig

Response:

[batteries in the apartment] Its against the law most places. Perhaps that excludes North America. The BOCA code doesn’t mention batteries.

I’d think that worst case good sealed AGM or gelled batts would be fine.  In fact, if you buy a UPS it is usually stuffed full of gelled batts so I can’t see how those would be illegal. Its dangerous. Alas, so is life.

Indeed.  So far it appears that it has a 100% fatality rate. Typically the most dangerous things in a home (causing the most injuries) are stairs and bathtub/shower.  I don’t think a sealed battery would be worse than that, unless the user mistreated it.  If we include those kind of problems, then any electrical jumps to the top of the danger list. Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

:      I am new to the world of renewable energy, and I hope I come to the : right newsgroup and appreciate if I could get some help from the : experts. :      I used to own a gasoline generator (Honda EU1000i) to provide : back-up power during power outage, or when I was too far away from an AC : outlet.  However, since I rent an apartment, keeping a gasoline : generator either inside or outside at the balcony isn’t a good idea, and : I don’t want to keep breathing gasoline vapor.  As a result, I sold it : and tried to go for the battery/inverter solution.  The back-up power : system is mainly for obtaining some AC power (probably about 1000W) when : there is a power outage under severe weather condition.  I am NOT : looking for a solution to run my complete apartment for several days. I’m a bloke who owns an apartment emergency power supply. I use a 500 watt UPS and it takes 24 volts. (2 marine batteries) I made mine with a surplus computer UPS. As far as battery voltage, it’s your choice. I use 24 volts myself in my system. 24 volts has the advantage of smaller amps for a given power than 12 volts, but to run stuff directly, you need 24 volt stuff, harder to find. Charging is interesting. I use a car charger and relays to charge each battery one at a time. This has the advantage of a charger not tripping some “smart” circuit in a UPS. I discuss my system in my UPSer .FAQ which I randomly post to this newsgroup and sometimes others. Your kilowatt system is bigger than mine, but the same principles will apply.Solar Panel Inverter battery  our power company warned the Chicago area that rolling blackouts may occur as they had some nuke plants down for maintenance. Becuse my neighbourhood had frequent blackouts I wasn’t happy to say the least. Unlike the Jobs(tm) thing, I decided to take matters into my own hands and build an emergency power supply. I did just that. I over time (and some money wastage) built a UPS that has 500 watts and can go for 3 hours. Not bad, eh? This .FAQ file is the result of my expierences with my machinery and my time in alt.energy.homepower where off-grid power comes up as the topic. As far as I know, I was the first one to intentionally buy a UPS for consumer use to modify it for blackout-proofing. I was always a fan of electrical technology. I always liked playing with electricity and I have a decent safety record for my personal experimentation. Becuse I tend to “fly by the seat of my pants” so to speak, it’s good to know electricity first! Q: How do you pronounce “UPS”? A: I pronounce it like the pachage company, spelling it out, while many computer professionals call it an “ups”, as in “life has its ups and downs”. Both pronunciations are found in the computer world, in some cases people will adopt the pronunciation used by the first person to bring it up. Since I have an accent-control mechanism, in a room of computer people, I use my pronunciation and others temporarily adopt it. Q: What’s wrong with normal UPSes? A: The average UPS for the average consumer is meant for a few minutes of power, just enough to save a file then cut off the computer and the UPS. If that’s all you want, that’s just fine. You can blow only $90 and get one. You get like 10 minutes of power to the computer which is enough to save a file and then some. As you can imagine, this wouldn’t be useful for those “mission-critical” mainframes or the like. But for most people, this will work fine to save a file. However, this only saves the file. But what about sitting around the house bored and sweaty? Q: So what if you get sweaty? A: Well, the UPS isn’t a UPS, is it? That’s why I own a 500 watter that runs for hours! I can at least run a fan, as well as a light and my computer… and my car stereo! There is in fact a medical reason I developed my UPS machinery. I have a medical condition known as “hyperhidrosis”. I get sweaty in certain areas and as a result I always sought out cold to control it. I plan on getting this fixed by surgery. Over time, I learned to shun heat, and my UPS is a direct result of this medical problem. This same medical condition is causing me to develop low-energy-use methods of keeping cool in blackouts, particularly the A/C Suit(tm) to be used during blackouts with the UPS. Take someone into homepower, and add a medical problem, and you will get innovation. It was this that caused me to create this .FAQ file. Q: OK, I’ve got this 1,000 watter that has a dead battery and I like this idea. How do I hook up bigger batteries to run for hours? A: This is why I wrote this .FAQ file. In my case I took an old 500 watt UPS and modified it to use an external battery. First you need to find out the original battery’s voltage. In my case I was able to tell my UPS takes 24 volts. I examined the battery pack and figured it out. It took 4 batteries of 6 volts each in series. In early times with a cheap consumer UPS I found it took a 12 volt battery by counting the seams of plastic separating the lead-scid cells of the battery. Most UPSes use lead-acid batteries much like a car but sealed. I took jumper cables and made holes in the case and ran them to the battery in question. Q: Your current UPS takes 24 volts. How do you make it with batteries? A: I hooked 2 12 volt marine/RV batteries in series and the UPS has the jumpers coming out of the intentional holes. Thus, I clip the jumpers to the 2 poles nicely. Come a blackout, it runs. Q: Aren’t the batteries a lot bigger than the original? A: Yes, by a large margin. By my extimates, about 6 times bigger if not more. If I had the money, I’d expand it! Q: Doen’t the original charger not charge them up right? A: Yes, that is a problem. This is why I use a car battery charger. Q: But wait! Doesn’t your car charger only charge 12 volts not 24 volts? A: Yes! That’s why I devised a system using relays so as to charge each battery one after a time. I use relays in my system to remote-control the changing of the clips from one battery to the other. That way, I can interface the car charger to the UPS for quicker charging after the blackout. The only problem is that at this time I must manually control the switches that control the relays in question. I have a third relay for blackout simulation, controlled by a separate switch. Q: So, why do you like 24 volts? A: There are two reasons. First, there’s that current infrastructure where I get 12 volt parts and that smaller wires are needed for 24 volts at a given power. At 500 watts, you’re talking 25 amps assuming some losses while at 12 volts you need 50. Although I use jumper cable wiring, smaller wire can be used at 25 amps and still not overheat. For battery charging, there’s an issue of some UPSes being sensitive to external chargers. With my setup, only half the battery cache is on charge at any time. Cheap UPSes will often trip off if you apply external charging. I adopted 24 volts as a standard as it’s rather common and you can by a centre-tap adapt 12 volt stuff. Just be careful about grounding. Q: Can you set up a bigger system for better run-time? A: Yes, and I’m planning on upgrading. I want a run-time of 10 hours at full power. That’ll take care of the garden-variety blackouts nicely. It’s probably best to design for a full-power run-time of half a day at least. Except for extreme cases, that’ll handle most blackouts nicely. Q: Can you parallel batteries in a large battery bank? A: Yes and no. When possible, it’s best to avoid paralleling battery caches. Instead, it’s better to buy the batteries with the desired amp-hour rating in the first place. For large ratings, you’ll have to get industrial batteries, like the ones used onboard electric forklifts. These are some MASSIVE “muthuhs”. One case where you have no choice but to parallel is the case of an apartment dweller. After all, you have to get the batteries up the stairs. Depending on your strength, a 70 pound cell should be manmageable. For 24 volts, figure on carrying 12 cells up the stairs to assemble the battery on-site. Future movers will HATE you! Q: Do landlords allow large batteries? A: So far, us UPSers are rare, so the default Lease has nothing to prevent it. This is unlike waterbeds, which most leases ban. Q: What about the actual weight of the battery pack? A: This is a good question. This is a good concern as it would be rather embarassing to have your battery cache fall through the floor! Happily, the average apartment will handle quite a bit of a weight load. For best results, you place the battery cache against a load-bearing wall. The average human weighs 200 pounds, and the average car battery or equivalent weight battery will weigh 70 pounds. You get 3 batteries to the human, so if you can have 5 humans you can have 15 batteries easally. The biggest problem is getting the cache up the stairs (and later moving). Getting a battery cache up the stairs in my case is the biggest limitation imposed on my using this technology. Q: What are the best UPSes/inverters to get? A: I use the cheapest … read more »

Response:

Hi  Check out my site at www.klis.com/solar and see how my house and shop are set up totally Off Grid !  The batteries…Go to a knowledgeable dealer for such things, not a toy store,  what you see at those types of places are not True Deep Cycle batteries,  True Deep Cycle Batteries are Expensive but they are the heart of your system.  If you purchase Cheapies then the system will never do what you want.  The old saying holds true: You Get What You Pay For  Many small UPS type of systems are available from Renovated Grocery Stores,  I purchased a used unit made by Emergi-Lite, a 48 volt unit with a 1500 watt sinewave invertor output and rated for 1 hour under full load,  complete with automatic charger system and alarms and breakers all in a very nice factory built package.  Check around to some electrical construction companies doing work in those types of places, you may find one cheap and then are High Quality. Got questions?  Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

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