Question:

the pump that I suggested here can be power by inverter from 12 W 7 A battery and is charged by the solar panel. HENRI

Solar Panel Inverter efficiency   Since that’s the case, I am adding alt.solar.photovoltaic to the list of newsgroups.     There are a lot of ways to pump water with photovoltaics.  The approach you choose will depend on many different factors.  Could you provide more details so that we can recommend an approach?  Specifically, are you pumping from a well to a non-pressurized tank?  Are you pumping from a well to a pressurized tank?  If a well, how deep?  How big is the borehole?  Are you pumping from a tank, or other non-pressurized source to pressurize a tank?     Here is a link to one vendor of solar-powered water pumps: Solar Panel Inverter efficiency  Windy Dankoff has been building solar water pumps for quite a while and is very knowledgable.  As such, he is very knowledgable in this area, and his website reflects that fact.  It has very good information about solar water pumping.  I have used one of his pumps for an application for a friend and was please with the performance.  The pump was not inexpensive, though.     Post more details here and we can give you more details. Hope this helps, George Estep Thanks for your reply. Solar Panel Inverter efficiency

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If anyone can help, Solar Panel Inverter efficiency I am after a solar powered water pump that will move about 10 litres/2 gallons per minute Solar Panel Inverter efficiency

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15-TG-12 max Litre /min: 18 power consumption:60 W max: .45 A Revolution:2900 r /min 1/2 inch diameter weight: 2.6 Kg 220V, 50 Hz maximum carriage capacity: 12 Meters height size: 18.5X 11X 10 cm freight down payment 50%. insurance: add 2% very stable, quiet and no over-heat problem, fully  tested. application: a. solar collector for better circulation                    b. home heating circulation                    c. garden pumping                    d. aquarium www.geocities.com/worldlinking/e-business/15TG-12.htm

Solar Panel Inverter efficiency If anyone can help, I am after a solar powered water pump that will move about 10 litres/2 gallons per minute  Solar Panel Inverter efficiency

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Thanks for your reply.Solar Panel Inverter efficiency   I am after a water pump powered by photo-voltaic cells. Barry Metz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 15-TG-12 max Litre /min: 18 power consumption:60 W max: .45 A Revolution:2900 r /min 1/2 inch diameter weight: 2.6 Kg 220V, 50 Hz maximum carriage capacity: 12 Meters height size: 18.5X 11X 10 cm freight down payment 50%. insurance: add 2% very stable, quiet and no over-heat problem, fully  tested. application: a. solar collector for better circulation                    b. home heating circulation                    c. garden pumping                    d. aquarium www.geocities.com/worldlinking/e-business/15TG-12.htm If anyone can help, I am after a solar powered water pump that will move about 10 litres/2 gallons per minute  Solar Panel Inverter efficiency

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Solar Panel Inverter efficiency Since that’s the case, I am adding alt.solar.photovoltaic to the list of newsgroups.     There are a lot of ways to pump water with photovoltaics.  The approach you choose will depend on many different factors.  Could you provide more details so that we can recommend an approach?  Specifically, are you pumping from a well to a non-pressurized tank?  Are you pumping from a well to a pressurized tank?  If a well, how deep?  How big is the borehole?  Are you pumping from a tank, or other non-pressurized source to pressurize a tank?     Here is a link to one vendor of solar-powered water pumps: http://www.dankoffsolar.com/water.html Windy Dankoff has been building solar water pumps for quite a while and is very knowledgable.  As such, he is very knowledgable in this area, and his website reflects that fact.  It has very good information about solar water pumping.  I have used one of his pumps for an application for a friend and was please with the performance.  The pump was not inexpensive, though.     Post more details here and we can give you more details. Hope this helps,Solar Panel Inverter efficiency

Solar Panel Inverter efficiency.  I am after a water pump powered by photo-voltaic cells. Barry Metz 15-TG-12 max Litre /min: 18 power consumption:60 W max: .45 A Revolution:2900 r /min 1/2 inch diameter weight: 2.6 Kg 220V,Solar Panel Inverter efficiency  50 Hz maximum carriage capacity: 12 Meters height size: 18.5X 11X 10 cm freight down payment 50%. insurance: add 2% very stable, quiet and no over-heat problem, fully  tested. application: a. solar collector for better circulation                    b. home heating circulation                    c. garden pumping                    d. aquarium www.geocities.com/worldlinking/e-business/15TG-12.htm If anyone can help, I am after a solar powered water pump that will move about 10 litres/2 gallons per minute  Solar Panel Inverter efficiency

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Question:

Is it possible to power air conditioner by means of a combination of solar, batery and wind generator? Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance.Solar Panel Inverter setup

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Yes, it is possible. A past issue of Pacific Friend issued by Japanese Government carried an article on it.  The company involved was SANYO. Utility power was used to reach the set temperature and then solar energy from photovoltaic cells maintained it.  For more information you may have to write Sanyo, Japan.Solar Panel Inverter setup  No technical information was given in the article but photographs and descriptions of the system were included.

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Is it possible to power air conditioner by means of a combination of solar, batery and wind generator? Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Solar Panel Inverter setup

Sure, it’s possible. Probably not optimum or very efficient, though.Solar Panel Inverter setup You could use a solar/wind/battery system and then an inverter to make 120 VAC (or whatever your local electricity is) to run an air conditioner. Or you could use a car air conditioner and use a 12 V system.         Air conditioning is a big electricity user. It is usually more efficient to minimize the need for AC by things like adding insulation, putting reflective film on windows, planting trees to help shade the house, putting arbors/porches etc. to help shade the house.         Other ways to help cool the house are thermal mass transfer systems like dew ponds, underground air ducting,Solar Panel Inverter setup  cooling lots of brick/rock/concrete to absorb heat during the day, using an evaporative cooler etc.         It’s usually worth doing passive or non-AC cooling is worthwhile even if it’s only to minimize AC use- even if it doesn’t completely rid you of the need for AC.Solar Panel Inverter setup

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Is it possible to power air conditioner by means of a combination of solar, batery and wind generator? Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Gabriel Ige

Since you did not mention “air conditioner” type desired, I must interject a thought… If your locale is a dry region, such as the desert southwest, and evaporative coolers are used, then this approach is entirely powerable by photovoltaics directly. Evaporative coolers are considered “air conditioners” in the broad sense.Solar Panel Inverter setup   The least expensive approach is to purchase a standard size household unit, and convert for twelve volt operation.  This requires a twelve volt DC motor of around 1/4 th horsepower for nearly 3000 CFM cooling using appropriate ratio belt drive to properly load motor with centrifical fan.  A 12 volt water pump from an RV dealer completes the conversion. It is best to use a large, oversized cooler and blower, rated say 7500 CFM or so @ 1 h.p., and to turn blower at slow rpm using a smaller motor and higher drive ratio. Hope it helps you get cool, dude! Gene A.Solar Panel Inverter setup

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::Is it possible to power air conditioner by means of a combination of ::solar, batery and wind generator? Any help will be appreciated. ::Thanks in advance. ::Gabriel Ige Gabriel: go to my site at http://www.chatlink.com/~soltherm/ the solar thermal electric generators there can be used for refrigeration. In fact, electricity losses could be eleminated completely, and the solar collectors can “make ice” with no moving parts. VERY efficient. Homepower authors, did just this, recent article…. -some guy named “Moth” or something… cherrios.Solar Panel Inverter setup

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I was wondering if anyone has heard of a non-evaporative household conditioner. I remember seeing a gas powered fridge, and thought maybe some solar concentrator could be used instead of a gas flame, and photo-voltaics for a pump ? Someone said they used ammonia and water sorry if this is an old question, I only found this group 2 months ago, and after some web searches, I found lot’s on heating,Solar Panel Inverter setup  but almost nothing on cooling. Cheers Clive B. : Is it possible to power air conditioner by means of a combination of : solar, batery and wind generator? Any help will be appreciated. : Thanks in advance. : Gabriel Ige : Since you did not mention “air conditioner” type desired, I must : interject a thought… : If your locale is a dry region, such as the desert southwest, and : evaporative coolers are used, then this approach is entirely powerable : by photovoltaics directly. : Evaporative coolers are considered “air conditioners” in the broad : sense.   : The least expensive approach is to purchase a standard size household : unit, and convert for twelve volt operation.  This requires a twelve : volt DC motor of around 1/4 th horsepower for nearly 3000 CFM cooling : using appropriate ratio belt drive to properly load motor with : centrifical fan.  A 12 volt water pump from an RV dealer completes the : conversion. : It is best to use a large,Solar Panel Inverter setup  oversized cooler and blower, rated say 7500 : CFM or so @ 1 h.p., and to turn blower at slow rpm using a smaller : motor and higher drive ratio. : Hope it helps you get cool, dude! : Gene A.Solar Panel Inverter setup

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I test industrial chillers (air conditioners, heat exchangers, etc). One of the interesting systems I found out about when I began in this line of work is absorber types of air conditioning equipment. I have said to the air conditioning technicians on many occasions, is that whoever designs a backyard solar fired air conditioner is going to make lots of money. This is the way I see it being done….. Commercial absorbers (1000 btu/ton) units use lithium bromide as a carrier agent. The actual refrigerant is water. Lithium bromide has a very strong ‘attraction’ to water/water vapor.  When the two are in the same vessel the LB will try to absorb the water. This is used as a ‘pumping mechanism” in a very low pressure vessel to cause water to boil in the temperature range used in these systems. Steam is normally used to provide the heat to ‘boil off’ the lithium bromide from the water.Solar Panel Inverter setup  The water  is then sprayed around the pipes used for cooling, absorbing the heat and vaporizing. The lithium bromide then attracts/combines with the water vapor and is pumped back to the steam section to be separated again. Vey little power is needed for the pump, comparatively speaking. Absorbers are normally used where steam is used in some manufacturing process where boilers are used anyway. Downsizing the unit and substituting a solar furnace, or focusing solar collector seem to be the engineering problems to overcome. Arizona, Golan Heights, etc would seem to be excellent areas to benefit from this technology I understand that RV’s use ammonia systems with either electric heat or gas flame to boil the ammonia off in similar fashion. Maybe solar furnace could be applied here as well. If you have the space, farm animals, and inclination,Solar Panel Inverter setup  heat could also be produced by biomass methane generation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it possible to power air conditioner by means of a combination of solar, batery and wind generator? Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance.Solar Panel Inverter setup

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Is it possible to power air conditioner by means of a combination of solar, batery and wind generator? Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Gabriel Ige

Most attempts to get cool when the sun is shining are dispite the stupendous quantity of heat. In south africa they used to cool wine etc in a wet sack on the roof of a moving car. So I recomend a fan that is solar powerd or not and a wet sack for starters. The next evolution step a tank of water shaded from the sun with a fan blowing on it. In the tank a 50m (14Ukp) hose pipe coiled to act as a heat exchanger. Conected to radiaters normally meant for warming via cheap water pump that also could be solar powerd. With convetional conditioners water condensing has to be collected and dripped outside but if the radiaters are bg enough on the inside perhaps this wouldn’t be a problem. The only obstical is actually trying it and I suspect the old insulation in the walls will need improving plus shading from the sun with external shutters, that also could shade frost in winter. Solar Panel Inverter setup

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I hope we will overcome some hurdles soon, but mechanical refrigeration, like electric or direct-fired water-heaters have a lock on the commercial market. The solar solutions are still cumbersome and mostly experimental at the residential level.           3 tons of mechanical refrigeration takes about 4kw of power at 200-240 vac. The duty cycle is about 30-50% on. Can you afford the batteries and inverter?         Evaporative cooling is very effective when dew points are below 55 F. It does depend on rapidly changing the air in the conditioned space. Slow air changes will not be comfortable. Power drops to 1/2 – 1 kw, doable, but the duty-cycle is nearly 100%. A 12 volt 1/2 h.p. motor needs more than 40 amps to run! Do the math 1/2 h.p. = 500 watts (actually more like 700, but pretend). 500 / 12 = 41.666….         Absorber systems seem best suited since the solar energy is directly applied. The drawback is absorbers are complex machines and very large (if cooling 1000 sq. ft. or more). If they were manufactured on the scale mechanical refrigeration is, they would be very cheap and popular. The availible equipment is generally much larger than an average home owner would tolerate. Solar panels would cover the entire roof. Not a problem for progressive thinkers in this group, but something else to overcome.         I would like to hear from anyone using solar-powered active cooling.Solar Panel Inverter setup

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Answer for question below: Yes its possible, You generate energy and you can do anything you want with this energy. Its technical possible to use this energy to drive a air-conditioner system. The problem is that the countries how need this are mostly pore and do not see that the investment make after a few years a profit. I was bizzy with this subject for Colombia. People have now money and do not see its saves money. Best Regards Marcel Holland (the Nederlands)  .Solar Panel Inverter setup

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process where boilers are used anyway. Downsizing the unit and substituting a solar furnace, or focusing solar collector seem to be the engineering problems to overcome. Arizona, Golan Heights, etc would seem to be excellent areas to benefit from this technology I understand that RV’s use ammonia systems with either electric heat or gas flame to boil the ammonia off in similar fashion. Maybe solar furnace could be applied here as well.

I just read in a library book ( that I had to return yesterday ) is that LiBr systems were preferred by solar systems.  They explained that solar water systems generate water in the 150-180 degree range ( again, I’m working from memory, so temps are approx. )  The LiBr systems can work quite well in that temperature range.  However, the Ammonia systems require temps in excess of 200 degrees to function correctly, and these temps are difficult to obtain from solar collectors, and if done anyway can lead to degrading of the collector.  The disadvantage of the LiBr system is that it operates at a hard to maintian low pressure, freeze up, etc.  Solar Panel Inverter setup  I have worked professionally with thermoelectric coolers for ten years. Their effeciency is high only when the temperature drop is small. In other words, when they are providing little cooling, they are very effecient. With a modest temperature drop of say 30 deg. C, they produce about 10 W of cooling using 8A at  10  vdc, or about 80W for an effeciency of only  1/8 or a COP of 0.125. Standard refrigeration units operate at around COP of 4.0. Similar low effeciences are typical when they are used as thermal to electrical generators as well. Cheers Gene A.Solar Panel Inverter setup  Is it possible to power air conditioner by means of a combination of solar, batery and wind generator? Any help will be appreciated. The answer is yes.  A number of HVAC manufacturers are now making small residential gas powered chillers (absorbtion units).  It is possible to heat the reaction chamber with active solar hot water, at least partially, if not totally.  I have seen a number of these houses, including one owned by an ASU professor here in Phoenix. It is probably more practical to power the pump and fan(s) with photovoltaics and take the total natural gas or LPG option in running the reaction unit on the chiller, IMHO. On the whole, If I were building or retrofitting a house, I’d go with a natural gas chiller/heater rather than “conventional” AC/Gas Furnace or Heat pump option.  First, they’re cheaper to run.  Second, they use no CFC’s.  Third, they have fewer moving parts and are quieter. Fourth, they are easier to zone. Mark FellhauerI live in Phoenix and have been looking for sources of absorbtion units.

If you know of any please post them. Solar Panel Inverter setup

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If you know of any please post them. Thanks Richard Gans

Real Goods is a place to start, although they are a bit pricey and preachy. The Modern Refrigeration Handbook is a good reference.  A current ed. can usually be found in the Library or Barnes & Noble.Solar Panel Inverter setup

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Is it possible to power air conditioner by means of a combination of solar, batery and wind generator? Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Gabriel Ige

I have installed three types of systems with air conditioners on dc systems. We have operated custom high efficiency (SEER about 16) air conditioners rated at 3 tons (36,000 BTU/Hr) from 24-volt battery systems to provide backup cooling to cellular telephone cell sites in Phoenix.  Cooling is required to maintain operation as the heat generated in the building would over heat the building within one hour in the summer here (46-50C, 115-120F).  A major problem is the starting current of very high efficiency compressors with locked rotor currents of over 100 amps with running current under 20 amps, at a nominal 230 VAC.  We use a stacked pair of Trace SW4024 inverters and a special motor starter.  The Trace SW4024 can handle surges of only 80 amps. The system works reliably, and could be part of a PV system.  This is large by renewable energy home standards.  Smaller or lower efficiency air conditioners would have less of a problem.  High efficiency units require smaller battery sets and smaller PV or other power sources. Trane used to make a variable speed heat pump that essentially was a variable speed 3-phase motor controller (inverter) driving a special compressor with a synchronous 3-phase motor.  This heat pump is also high efficiency, but there is no surge due to the slow start of the inverter.  There are two ways to operate this heat pump from PV systems: 1) Use inverters of suitable power (2 Trace SW4024 again) to supply 230     VAC; 2) Connect a high voltage PV array to supply 380VDC into the 3-phase     motor controller (or a lower voltage into a maximum power tracking    boost converter to produce 380 VDC).  In the USA this method does   not fully meet the National Electric Code requirement for a hard   grounding of the PV array as the 380 VDC is produced from the   heat pump boost circuit that is part of a power factor correction power   supply that results in a floating 380 VDC. The normal AC power is still   required for the controls and evaporator motor in these test systems. Both systems work, but the #1 design also allows other use of the PV energy when the heat pump is not needed.  This heat pump is no longer available.  This work was sponsored by the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) and is still in process, no report is yet available.Solar Panel Inverter setup  Bill Kaszeta Photovoltaic Resources International Mesa  Arizona USA

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Is it possible to power air conditioner by means of a combination of solar, batery and wind generator? Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance.Solar Panel Inverter setup

Yes. You may want to consider a passive method. In the early part of this century Sears marketed a SOLAR refridgerator.  It was an Ammonnia based unit, that used a large copper ball as the heat source.  The ball was hung outside on a south facing wall and connected to the cooling apparatus via a tube through the wall.  Could freeze but did keep things fairly cool on sunny days. No reason such a device couldn’t  be used as an air conditioner with alittle re-engineering here and there<g.  Check round in the older magazines etc for references, I don’t have any around anymore or I would post them.Solar Panel Inverter setup

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I’ve thought of living off grid for 25 years and did from 1991 til 1994. Cooling must be done with water. In muggy climates this is a big problem . Solar Panel Inverter setup

I am in a sunny, dry-summered climate. I can avoid most cooling needs through design – masonry construction, shading, vent stacks, etc. – but I am wondering how I can provide the small amount of supplementary cooling needed at the hottest points of mid-summer. Can this be done evaporatively with PV-powered fans? Are there any problems with moisture in dwellings using evaporative cooling? ALSO: How can I use solar for heating during our mild, wet winters? Is there any way I can store heat for the longer periods of cloud cover (which can last several days)? I would like to make use of solar hot water for this, as this equipment is widely available here.Solar Panel Inverter setup

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I’ve thought of living off grid for 25 years and did from 1991 til 1994. Cooling must be done with water. In muggy climates this is a big problem . I am in a sunny, dry-summered climate. I can avoid most cooling needs through design – masonry construction, shading, vent stacksSolar Panel Inverter setup

Yes!  Of course it does depend on the climate, and what you mean by “dry-summered”.  Evaporative cooling is standard technology here in the Southwestern US.  What are the temperatures and relative humidities at which you want to cool your building?  How do they vary daily? Can this be done evaporatively with PV-powered fans? Are there any problems with moisture in dwellings using evaporative cooling?

PV powered fans can work — but do the calculations first.  People too often make the mistake of guessing too small, and then giving up. Generally if it is dry enough to get good evaporative cooling you won’t have a problem with moisture. ALSO: How can I use solar for heating during our mild, wet winters? Is there any way I can store heat for the longer periods of cloud cover (which can last several days)?Solar Panel Inverter setup I would like to make use of solar hot water for this, as this equipment is widely available here.

Of course water does work, but calculate the amount and temperatures required.  Our experience has been (generally) that after 5 years or so, people tire of maintaining liquid collector systems.  The really successful passive solar designs store the thermal energy in the building mass (just like you mentioned with the cooling).  This however, usually has storage of about one day’s length.  The longer periods are covered by a backup heating system of some kind — usually just a traditional heating system. The first thing to think about however is insulating your building. Insulation is cheaper than almost any form of heating, for the energy conserved.  (Of course this varies with the climate too.) –

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I’ve thought of living off grid for 25 years and did from 1991 til 1994. Cooling must be done with water. In muggy climates this is a big problem . I am in a sunny, dry-summered climate. I can avoid most cooling needs through design – masonry construction, shading, vent stacks, etc. – but I am wondering how I can provide the small amount of supplementary cooling needed at the hottest points of mid-summer.Solar Panel Inverter setup  Can this be done evaporatively with PV-powered fans? Are there any problems with moisture in dwellings using evaporative cooling?

Probably not in hot weather, since I have a cheap plastic humidity meter meant for greenhouses in every room and humidity is only a problem in autum and spring here in UK. ALSO: How can I use solar for heating during our mild,

wet winters? Is there any way I can store heat for the longer periods of cloud cover (which can last several days)? I would like to make use of solar hot water for this,Solar Panel Inverter setup  as this equipment is widely available here. Joshua For access to solar heat in winter I sugest cloche like extra glazing and removing the shade you mentioned you have for sumer some how. Lots of cheap dustbin/ water butts with lids in the glazing space between walls and glass/plastic would store heat. — (Everybody wants to be certifiably nice on this tide of awesome tech’ power.)c? (Posts mispelt or not should be written with content to be worth saving so as apathy doesn’t drown lurkers)c?

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Question:

A while back, Don from Homepower said that system multifunction solar panel inverters lifecycle costs for PV systems were on the order of 25 cents per KWHR, but I can’t seem to work out that math. At $5/watt for the panels, 30 cents per watt-hour for the batteries, and around a buck a watt for an inverter, you are into $6.30 (plus installation) per watt for a system.  Since the only datapoint I have gives about 4.5 hours a day equivalent peak for the panels, you make 4.5 watt hours per day, or a cost of $1.40 per watt-hour per day, or $1400 per KWHR per day.  In order to get this down to 25 cents/kwhr you’d have to run for 5600 days, about 15 years, but the best batteries I’ve seen are only good for 8 years, and I’m not sure the other maintainance costs are zero either… Are my prices too high, my timelines too short, or am I missing something else?

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Sounds to me like you are learning multifunction solar panel inverters why it has not been cost effective to go to solar for all our needs. Also, consider:    if you put the cost of the solar system in a bank , the interest would pay for more grid electricity than the solar system would generate. And you would still have the lump sum in the bank if you needed it..

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A while back, Don from Homepower said that system multifunction solar panel inverters  lifecycle costs for PV systems were on the order of 25 cents per KWHR, but I can’t seem to work out that math. At $5/watt for the panels, 30 cents per watt-hour for the batteries, You’re off by an order of magnitude with the batteries.  It’s more like $.03 (three cents) per watt-hour.  Double or even triple that in replacement banks and you are still under a dime a watt-hour. and around a buck a watt for an inverter, you are into $6.30 (plus Also, good inverters are more in the $.40-.50 (forty to fifty cents per watt) range. installation) per watt for a system.  Since the only datapoint I have gives about 4.5 hours a day equivalent peak for the panels, you make 4.5 watt hours per day, or a cost of $1.40 per watt-hour per day, or $1400 per KWHR per day.  In order to get this down to 25 cents/kwhr you’d have to run for 5600 days, about 15 years, but the best batteries I’ve seen are only good for 8 years, and I’m not sure the other maintainance costs are zero either… Are my prices too high, my timelines too short, or am I missing something else? In general: Panels are good for multifunction solar panel inverters 25-40 years. Quality batteries are good for 7-10 years. Inverter should last 15-20 years. Most of the rest of the infrastructure accounts for 10-20 cents a watt and will easily last as long as the panels. $.25 a kWh installed is a very conservative estimate.  I’ve seen systems that were as low as $.17 a kWh over the life of the system.  And economies of scale start to apply here, the larger the system, the lower the per kWh costs.  EREN has a good cost breakdown on a by state basis which shows at what point would PV be competitive with the utility based both on amount of insolation compared with the cost for electricity for the region.  Hawaii is already there due to lots of sun and a high cost of electricity.  The average line for the country seemed to be at the $2.50 a watt installed range, or it’s still over twice as much as it would have to be. the url is: http://www.eren.doe.gov/millionroofs/breakevn.html.

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I think that was just a ballpark multifunction solar panel inverters number, as no one really knows what the cost is, because no one has to date outlived all of the hardware of such a system…  so if you have hardware which can last for tens of years, how do you make any calc other than the base installed price divided by average daily wattage generated…  which is why I never put any faith in those figures blatted about.

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$.25 a kWh installed is a very multifunction solar panel inverters conservative estimate.  I’ve seen systems that were as low as $.17 a kWh over the life of the system.  And economies of scale start to apply here, the larger the system, the lower the per kWh costs.  EREN has a good cost breakdown on a by state basis which shows at what point would PV be competitive with the utility based both on amount of insolation compared with the cost for electricity for the region.  Hawaii is already there due to lots of sun and a high cost of electricity.  The average line for the country seemed to be at the $2.50 a watt installed range, or it’s still over twice as much as it would have to be. “life of the system”, I really am starting to dislike people using that and similar terms for something which hasn’t really any term of life data built up due to the fact that much of the system DOES last…  sadly much of the life of system data has little to do with how long the equipment lasts, as much as it does that successive owners with no interest or current owners lose interest and thus dismantle the systems and giving those systems a false life of system datums.

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Oh sure, when you compare multifunction solar panel inverters installed solar against base (and inaccurate) utility power.  However, if you use real figures without governmental subsidies to grid and grid related energy, then the differences become much less.   When you compare installed grid to places that are not inner city though, then all of a sudden the utility grid really loses out big time…  like out here for instance, the utility wanted $14KUS just to run a stinking power line, so that we could enjoy blackouts and brownouts and dirty power and best of all the monthly utility bill.   As to your bank analogy there is no factual comparison…  only guess-timates….  Since there is no real factual data on the actual life of alt energy systems over the full life (since solar energy has not been around 50 years or longer, which is the ‘projected’ life of the major componants) and the lifetime energy generation verses costs of those same systems.  The only factual numbers you can use is the installed price when used with the total daily wattage generated in a day, averaged over a year, but that is all, anything else is still only guess-timates.

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That is a very handy graph multifunction solar panel inverters – we hand it out with a lot of our other literature. What interesting is that New York and MA are right up there with Arizona and California.  I must assume that is due to some really high subsidies, and possibly high power costs.  Somehow it strikes me as kinda dumb to have PV subsidies in a state with so little sun compared to other states   Hawaii is kinda obvious – some of their power is as high as 25 cents per kwh.

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I use 25 years as a good idea multifunction solar panel inverters of “life” of solar panels since most are warranted for 25 years.  That makes it a pretty safe bet. Battery life is pretty well tested. An inverter is a high powered electronic device, if well made it’s a safe bet that at a minimum it will last 15-12 years under normal use. If anything, “life of the system” estimates are wildly conservative. Much better for a system to exceed expectations than to disappoint.   For what it’s worth, some of my panels are over 14 years old.  I’ve not lost one yet and only experienced slight (and expected)  loss of efficiency as the adhesives have ages and turned slightly cloudy. If my solar panels lasted 50 years then my price per kWh would be less than that of the utility.

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I’ll go real slow and multifunction solar panel inverters make it real simple: To generate ONE kilowatt-hour in a day in Dallas requires a 200 watt panel in use for 5 hours. The panel cost, by itself , is about $1000. One thousand dollare, at 6 percent is $60 a year or sixteen cents a day. Sixteen cents will buy TWO kilowatt hours of electricity, here. This leaves out inverter, wire, installation, maintenance, the wage for the guy who hoses the panel off,— all that other stuff….

Response:

If that isn’t clear enough, consider multifunction solar panel inverters this: The nuclear power front, an outgrowth of the war-inspired Manhattan Project, is on it’s last legs. There are a few plants still running, but the promise of “energy too cheap to meter” still motivates Andy’s el cheapo interests.

Response:

Oh sure, when you compare installed solar against base (and inaccurate) utility power. Inaccurate is hardly multifunction solar panel inverters a word I’d use to describe the cost of utility power.  It’s a simple calculation, the KWHRs I used last month divided by my total bill.  Right around 10 cents per KWHR around here… Sure, maybe it’s not a “fair” price, whatever that is, but it’s _the_ price against which I have to compare a solar system. ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

Response:

http://www.eren.doe.gov/millionroofs/breakevn.html  That is a very handy graph – we hand it out with a lot of our other literature. What interesting is that New York multifunction solar panel inverters and MA are right up there with Arizona and California.  I must assume that is due to some really high subsidies, and possibly high power costs.

Response:

Give me a f**king break!   Just because someone points out that solar is not cost effective in Dallas, that makes him a “Nuclear Whore”????   Why is it that people like you talk big about solar, but when it actually comes to BUYING it, the Earth Muffins and Tree Huggers are at the bottom of the list.  In fact, of the thousands of systems we have sold this year, I cannot recall a single one that was sold to anyone concerned with the environmental aspects of it.   Maybe it’s just that you want someone ELSE to pay for it?  For many years we have put up with the “Friends of the Earth” type folks – they look, they talk, but they don’t actually buy.  It’s the “Right Wing Wackos” that are buying most of the solar, not the enviro-dudes. Obviously, Andy in Dallas is multifunction solar panel inverters a whore for the nukes.  If that isn’t clear enough, consider this: The nuclear power front, an outgrowth of the war-inspired Manhattan Project, is on it’s last legs. There are a few plants still running, but the promise of “energy too cheap to meter” still motivates Andy’s el cheapo interests.

Response:

Ask Aukland New Zealand what they think the real price of realying on grid power is. Roger (Australia)

Response:

That’s good info multifunction solar panel inverters.  Seems to track with my observations. However, I don’t neccessarily agree that PV “cleans up the environment”. My system seems to attract a lot of bird poop….

Response:

Obviously, Andy in Dallas is a whore for the nukes. SNIPP YADDA YADDA YADDA Yeah, obviously,   Well, I have been running PV panels to power my barn for many years now.  Not for economic reasons since I also have grid access, but to develop and experiment with inverters,trackers,charge controllers and find out first hand the sort of difficulties that are encountered when one tries to actually do the PV thing. Since I have been an electrical design engineer for about 4 decades, I design my own equipment and have the skills to monitor and control the processes adequately . Solar is a fun hobby thing and allows me to determine for myself whether much of the theory that is bounced around so non-chalantly is useful from a practical standpoint. Most of it is, if you read ALL of the available literature. If you read the buzz words and stop there, you’ll spend a lot of money to keep your transistor radio running….   My conclusions are as I have stated. I use solar on my sailboat, but not in my house.   Oh….. and I don’t know diddly-squat about nuclear, nor am I interested enough to find out. Seems some people already live too close to toxic waste dumps and it makes them paranoid….                Party on,         Andy in Dallas P.S.  I’ll be glad to swap info with anyone on Email,       but a global computer system isn’t a good forum       for much of the discussion I have been reading….

Response:

Ask Aukland New Zealand what they think the real price of realying on grid power is. They don’t have any option.  You could _cover_ any city with solar panels and not make a dent in the power requirements.

Response:

Not true. 10 to 25 watt hours multifunction solar panel inverters AC per square foot per day. Lots of roof space. Do the math. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ask Aukland New Zealand what they think the real price of realying on grid power is. They don’t have any option.  You could _cover_ any city with solar panels and not make a dent in the power requirements.

Response:

Maybe the people in Australia affected by the explosion at the main natural gas plant (where in Australia?) can tell us what they think of a system of centralized natural gas processing and distribution to home users through pipeline network. Todd

Response:

Ask Aukland New Zealand what they think the real price of realying on grid power is. They don’t have any option.  You could _cover_ any city with solar panels and not make a dent in the power requirements. About a MWh per day per square mile.  Figure a hundred square miles in a city, a hundred MWh is a little more than just a dent.  Point in fact, it’s a significant percentage. (figuring a conservative conversion eff. of 10%, with an average peak insolation of about 4 hours per day).

Response:

Hello Warren, Well, after you put old Newton (Andy in Dallas is a whore for the nukes) in his place, you certainly have my business!! Regards, Bill

Response:

It was Melbourne, our second largest city, and everyone went with cold showers for a week.  My point exactly, it is all very well comparing the cost of PV and other alternative energy systems to the raw kilowatt cost but that is not a valid comparison. Is’t far more complicated than any simplistic economic rationalist calulation. Roger Maybe the people in Australia affected by the explosion at the main natural gas plant (where in Australia?) can tell us what they think of a system of centralized natural gas processing and distribution to home users through pipeline network.

Response:

A while back, Don from Homepower said that system lifecycle costs for PV systems were on the order of 25 cents per KWHR, but I can’t seem to work out that math. You have apparently multifunction solar panel inverters made the error of including all of the pieces except installation. I’ve heard that the cost of mounting the panels on racks has amounted to 30% of the total in some cases.

Question:

We have been selling the Sunfrost refrigerators for some 15 years now.types of Solar Panel Inverter

At the time when solar was $10 to $15 a watt, there was little doubt that they were worth the money and the hassle.   However, we are thinking that maybe things have changed,types of Solar Panel Inverter

and are wondering if Sunfrost is about to go the way of the dinosaur, holding on mainly by a reputation that may be unfounded.   Some background on how we got to wondering about this – with the ongoing Y2K interest, Sunfrost has been gradually stretching out deliveries – from 3-5 weeks a year ago, up to 15 MONTHS now.types of Solar Panel Inverter

Sunfrost apparently is refusing to increase their production to meet the demand, feeling perhaps that it’s a one shot deal. Perhaps it is, but another thing it has done is force us to look at alternatives – and it’s not looking good for Sunfrost.   A Sunfrost 19 cubic foot refrigerator/freezer sells for about $3,000 by the time you get shipping and crating charges. In addition, it requires approximately one 120 watt solar panel to run (assuming 4.2 hours sun).  This is a total cost of about $3600. Now – the bad news for Sunfrost:   An energy efficient STANDARD refrigerator (a Magic Chef 19.2 CF) Energy Star rated, uses about 2.5 times as much electricity (including inverter losses) as the Sunfrost.  However, the Magic Chef’s price is less than 1/3 that of the Sunfrost – it retails for around $850.  It would need 3 120 watt solar panels to run (I am being very conservative here, because the Magic Chef rating is at government/industry standard 90 degrees F,types of Solar Panel Inverter

while the Sunfrost rates itself at 70 degrees).   That comes out to a total cost of $850 + $1800 for the solar panels, or a total cost of $2650 – or *** $950 LESS *** than the Sunfrost total cost. The obvious advantage is that you get a standard off-the-shelf refrigerator with standard parts that is sold nationwide through hundreds of local dealers.  Right now, I can’t think of any disadvantages…. Comments to news groups, types of Solar Panel Inverter

.  Sunfrost apparently is refusing to increase their production to meet the demand, feeling perhaps that it’s a one shot deal. Perhaps it is, but another thing it has done is force us to look at alternatives – and it’s not looking good for Sunfrost.   A Sunfrost 19 cubic foot refrigerator/freezer sells for about $3,000 by the time you get shipping and crating charges. In addition, it requires approximately one 120 watt solar panel to run (assuming 4.2 hours sun).  This is a total cost of about $3600. Now – the bad news for Sunfrost:   An energy efficient STANDARD refrigerator (a Magic Chef 19.2 CF) Energy Star rated, uses about 2.5 times as much electricity (including inverter losses) as the Sunfrost.  However, the Magic Chef’s price is less than 1/3 that of the Sunfrost – it retails for around $850.  It would need 3 120 watt solar panels to run (I am being very conservative here, because the Magic Chef rating is at government/industry standard 90 degrees F, while the Sunfrost rates itself at 70 degrees).   That comes out to a total cost of $850 + $1800 for the solar panels, or a total cost of $2650 – or *** $950 LESS *** than the Sunfrost total cost. The obvious advantage is that you get a standard off-the-shelf refrigerator with standard parts that is sold nationwide through hundreds of local dealers.  Right now,types of Solar Panel Inverter

I can’t think of any disadvantages….

I’d certainly agree, although to their credit Sunfrost did create a valuable product in their time. Also, any standard fridge’s performance can be beefed up with a bit of extra insulation (back and sides) and more efficient heat extraction from the condenser coil without making it look too kludgy. types of Solar Panel Inverter

the bad news for Sunfrost:   An energy efficient STANDARD refrigerator (a Magic Chef 19.2 CF) Energy Star rated, uses about 2.5 times as much electricity (including inverter losses) as the Sunfrost.  However, the Magic Chef’s price is less than 1/3 that of the Sunfrost – it retails for around $850.  It would need 3 120 watt solar panels to run (I am being very conservative here, because the Magic Chef rating is at government/industry standard 90 degrees F, while the Sunfrost rates itself at 70 degrees).   That comes out to a total cost of $850 + $1800 for the solar panels, or a total cost of $2650 – or *** $950 LESS *** than the Sunfrost total cost. The obvious advantage is that you get a standard off-the-shelf refrigerator with standard parts that is sold nationwide through hundreds of local dealers.  Right now, I can’t think of any disadvantages….

You forgot to include the cost of an inverter (and batteries) for the standard refrigerator.  The inverter woulf have to be very hefty & expensive.  On my energy efficient (Maytag) refrigerator the starting surge is fully 10X the running current, and the solar panels would surely need batteries to power that surge.  As a minimum expect to use 4X as many batteries.types of Solar Panel Inverter

.   You do not power strictly from solar panels, you always need batteries

I believe the original poster meant that because you are using more energy you need more panels and more batteries.  Hence keeping your panel to battery ratio the same.

Response:

I did not forget it, I assumed that any larger system would have an inverter.  I don’t know about your refrigerator, but mine only pulls 190 watts and 580 on startup. It’s a standard off the shelf Magic Chef 19 CF. I have run it off of a Trace TS500 inverter. — Solar and Wind for remote power since 1979 http://www.windsun.com http://www.solar-electric.com (online store) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ….. You forgot to include the cost of an inverter (and batteries) for the standard refrigerator.  The inverter woulf have to be very hefty & expensive.  On my energy efficient (Maytag) refrigerator the starting surge is fully 10X the running current, and the solar panels would surely need batteries to power that surge.types of Solar Panel Inverter

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There seems to be an idea that most of the Sunfrost units are the DC models.  I just checked the last 2 year’s sales, and out of 104 units we sold, only 17 were DC models,  and most of those were the 12 CF and smaller. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Energy Star?!?  That over inflated bunch of yahoo’s?!?  Oh I can think of disadvantages, not many it is true, but…  Inverter goes down or along those lines..  a DC operated appliance will keep on going, but what happens if you are gone for several days and you have several hundred dollars of food in your AC fridge when an inverter goes offline or along those lines…  whereas a DC fridge would only have to worry about the battery pack going dead.  Recently I bought a pair of wall mounted units to replace my stand-alone units…  one a freezer and the other a fridge, after mounting (the backs of them are in the pantry) them I installed extra (spray) insulation and a couple of muffin fans for venting and cooling of the coils, and they are AC as well…  so far energy use has been quite good, and better yet is that there is room to spare…  esp. in consideration of the processed hog I put in the freezer last weekend.

Response:

In 1984 I sold Danfoss BD2.5 compressors to encourage people to build their own 12 VDC refrigerators. I forget the total sold, but 135 people bought compressors in one month. One person from Oregon shipped his homemade 12 VDC refrigerator to his new home in Kenya and may have had the first residential PV powered refrigerator in that country. Also in 1984 two people from Danfoss visited me to find out if there was a market for PV refrigerators. They were very interested, but the minimum production run was 21,000 units. At the time, the PV industry could have sold about 1/10 that amount. 21k sounds like a lot, but each year 1.5 Million new refrigerators are bought in California alone. Then along came Larry Schussler and Sun Frost. Everyone was complaining about refrigerators being power hogs, but Larry actually did something about it. The result is that for years people have been swearing by Sun Frost or swearing at it. I wonder what would have happened if Larry had gone into the retrofit business and put BD2.5’s on conventional boxes. About the same time, the big guys got interested winning the $30 Million green carrot (and millions more free in marketing) for building a more efficient conventional refrigerator. Whirlpool won, but the race was on. For a list of models and other good information, buy the Consumer’s Guide to Home Energy Savings for $13 postpaid from http:/aceee.org. I compared my 10 year old 25 cu. ft. Amana side by side refrigerator and freezer (900 kWh/yr) to the new equivalent model (765 kWh/yr). The improvement is significant, but our old refrigerator is still like new so we put the money into PV. However, if your current refrigerator is on it last ice cubes, get an energy efficient new unit. Your refrigerator probably uses 10% to 50% of your electric energy. If just Californians upgraded to new, more efficient refrigerators, 10 nuclear power plants could be shut down. Regarding adding insulation to your existing conventional refrigerator, you might give it a try, document your results and share it with the newsgroup. I tried it (sides and top) but do not recommend it. The big energy losses are opening the door (obvious), not packing stuff properly, high ambient room temperature, inadequate ventilation around compressor and coils, and the automatic defroster/heater. Joel Davidson www.solarsolar.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the cost of the conventional, I figured in 2 more L-16’s. — Solar and Wind for remote power since 1979 http://www.windsun.com http://www.solar-electric.com (online store)   A Sunfrost 19 cubic foot refrigerator/freezer sells for about $3,000 by the time you get shipping and crating charges. In addition, it requires approximately one 120 watt solar panel to run (assuming 4.2 hours sun).types of Solar Panel Inverter

This is a total cost of about $3600. Now – the bad news for Sunfrost:   An energy efficient STANDARD refrigerator (a Magic Chef 19.2 CF) Energy Star rated, uses about 2.5 times as much electricity (including inverter losses) as the Sunfrost.  However, the Magic Chef’s price is less than 1/3 that of the Sunfrost – it retails for around $850. It would need 3 120 watt solar panels to run (I am being very conservative here, because the Magic Chef rating is at government/industry standard 90 degrees F, while the Sunfrost rates itself at 70 degrees).   That comes out to a total cost of $850 + $1800 for the solar panels, or a total cost of $2650 – or *** $950 LESS *** than the Sunfrost total cost. The obvious advantage is that you get a standard off-the-shelf refrigerator with standard parts that is sold nationwide through hundreds of local dealers.  Right now, I can’t think of any disadvantages…. How would batteries figure into the equation?types of Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

dont forgit the vista frost units. thay run at 500watts a day ??

Like a car that goes 50 miles per hour per hour?types of Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

As a photocomm dealer and manufacture of gensets I AGREE with the thought of running a store bought unit . The cost and more important lack of caring by Sunfrost for its dealers has left me no other way than to recommend other alternatives for my customers . It seems like a company would be concerned about its future but I guess if you going to make a million of the scared y2k public you don’t have to worry about the future. Sorry Sunfrost but you are no longer recommended to my customers .types of Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

There is little doubt that Sunfrost was on the cutting edge at that time. However, that was then, this is now. At that time solar was $15 to $20 a watt, vs $5 a watt now. The average refrigerator used 40% more than current models, insulation was a joke – I remember seeing some cheap models where water would run down the sides because of condensation on the outside. In the past 15 years, manufacturing methods have moved ahead, there is better insulation available, and more efficient compressors are available.  One problem I have seen with the solar industry in the past is that it often has it’s head stuck in the sand, and does not recognize anything outside of the ads in HP magazine.  Sometimes it takes an outsider from another industry to come in and recognize that an application from some totally unrelated field would work great in solar homes.types of Solar Panel Inverter

.  This is a total cost of about $3600. Now – the bad news for Sunfrost:   An energy efficient STANDARD refrigerator (a Magic Chef 19.2 CF) Energy Star rated, uses about 2.5 times as much electricity (including inverter losses) as the Sunfrost.  However, the Magic Chef’s price is less than 1/3 that of the Sunfrost – it retails for around $850. It would need 3 120 watt solar panels to run (I am being very conservative here, because the Magic Chef rating is at government/industry standard 90 degrees F, while the Sunfrost rates itself at 70 degrees).   That comes out to a total cost of $850 + $1800 for the solar panels, or a total cost of $2650 – or *** $950 LESS *** than the Sunfrost total cost. The obvious advantage is that you get a standard off-the-shelf refrigerator with standard parts that is sold nationwide through hundreds of local dealers.  Right now, I can’t think of any disadvantages…. How would batteries figure into the equation? types of Solar Panel Inverter

I know there are always more AC than DC sold in the USA, just as there are more electric than LP ones sold in the USA…  but it still does not nullify that DC appliances have the major advantage over AC ones in alt energy systems of being directly on the battery pack and thus less likely to experience problems relating to inverters or anything AC related. — BulkMailers and Email address compilers may purchase this individual email address for $25000.00 for use in their products. Anyone selling this email address or utilizing this email address for any commercial usage without a license from ShadowMAC is in violation of private property rights and violators WILL be be invoiced for usage. Selling what you do not own is THEFT of private property!!!types of Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

Being off the grid for the last 8 years has showed me that a store bought unit can be competitive with the Sunfrost

In some ways, but the sunfrosts STILL use less energy than any others on the market that I know of, true such is offset by the expense of alt energy, but it is also just as true that no brand other than SunFrost manufactures electric refridge or freezer which uses so little electricity per cubic foot of cold storage. — BulkMailers and Email address compilers may purchase this individual email address for $25000.00 for use in their products. Anyone selling this email address or utilizing this email address for any commercial usage without a license from ShadowMAC is in violation of private property rights and violators WILL be be invoiced for usage. Selling what you do not own is THEFT of private property!!!types of Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

Being off the grid for the last 8 years has showed me that a store bought unit can be competitive with the Sunfrost  In some ways, but the sunfrosts STILL use less energy than any others on the market that I know of,types of Solar Panel Inverter

true such is offset by the expense of alt energy, but it is also just as true that no brand other than SunFrost manufactures electric refridge or freezer which uses so little electricity per cubic foot of cold storage.

So?  A similar size and features fridge uses 20-30% more electricity but does it at 1/3 to 1/5 the cost maks the Sunfrost a very poor ROI, especially when it has no payback period over the life of the unit. I’d much rather spend the money I save on the fridge on the array and battery bank, more capacity works better overall. A sunfrost is ok for applications where the lowest power draw is critical and cost is not a factor, but in general it is not the optimal choice and hasn’t been for several years now. — Anmar Mirza #Chief of Tranquility#I’m a cheap date, but an expensive pet. EMT-D TBTW10#Base, Lawrence Co.  #Road rage is a nice term for “immature.” N9ISY (tech)#Somewhere out on the#    Have sawmill, will travel. types of Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

Another alternative to RE type and regular 120v refridgerators are the various types made for RVs.  Norcold makes a fairly efficient model that can operate on either 120v or 12v.  One of their newest models only draws about 2 amps at 12v.  If you have propane then you can use an adsorption type as made by Dometic.  These aren’t as efficient as compressor type refidgerators but can run on propane, 120v, or 12v.  They draw about 5 amps on 12v and don’t cool very well in hot weather (except with propane).  I’d only consider one of these if you expect to run on propane – figure about $0.25 a day.  These things have to be level, sometimes a problem in RV’s.  And both types are pretty small.  You’re looking at about $1000 for the Norcold (I’m not sure about the 2amp, 12v model) and less than $500 for the Dometic.  Often RV places have used ones without a lot of hours on them at about 2/3 the cost of new.  Overall, neither of these is as efficient as the regular 120v jobs,types of Solar Panel Inverter

but it does give you a couple of lower cost options.   Russ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a photocomm dealer and manufacture of gensets I AGREE with the thought of running a store bought unit . The cost and more important lack of caring by Sunfrost for its dealers has left me no other way than to recommend other alternatives for my customers . It seems like a company would be concerned about its future but I guess if you going to make a million of the scared y2k public you don’t have to worry about the future. Sorry Sunfrost but you are no longer recommended to my customers . Being off the grid for the last 8 years has showed me that a store bought unit can be competitive with the Sunfrost Mike  Remote Power   flame on )    Did not Consumer Reports say the same thing about 2 years ago?  If rated at similar outside temperatures, then commercial refrigeration units were equally efficient as the Sunfrost units.    And what about kerosene units?types of Solar Panel Inverter

We lived with one in India, and it was just fine.  I’d go for LP gas here myself.

Response:

but it still does not nullify that DC appliances have the major advantage over AC ones in alt energy systems of being directly on the battery pack and thus less likely to experience problems relating to inverters or anything AC related.

Except that the DC Sunfrosts _do_ have an inverter.  It’s built into the compressor, and if it dies (not likely) then you are just as much out of luck. If reliability is a driving concern, get a second, small inverter for your conventional ‘fridge.  If it dies, you can put the ‘fridge on the main inverter until you get it repaired or replaced.types of Solar Panel Inverter

It’s still cheaper, and the parts are more easily available.

Response:

Question:

A WHILE AGO I SENT THE FOLLOWING EMAIL TO RYAN HEALEY,small Solar Panel Inverter
BUT HE HAS NOT RESPONDED SO FAR.  I GUESS HE IS NOT UP TO MY CHALLENGE AS FOR THE REST OF THE PEOPLE HERE YOU REALLY SHOULD READ THIS INCREDIBLE BOOK MENTIONED IN THE Some of you say that nukes will supply ‘more’ power than Renewable  sources will. need THAT much power. Renewable energy sources can provide all the power that humanity  needs, and when enough renewable energy collectors are built to supply  all of that power we will simply not need Nuclear Energy anymore. I went looking around and I found a wonderful site that has a lot of good information about PV. You have probably heard of this organization before it is called: THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY!!! **background trumpets** You can find their PV division here:   http://www.eren.doe.gov/pv/ I READ THROUGH ALMOST THEIR ENTIRE PV DIVISION AND I  WOULD ENCOURAGE YOU TO ALSO. These are a few highlights I found there: Each second, the sun releases an enormous amount of radiant energy  into the solar system. The Earth receives a tiny fraction of this energy;  still, an average of 1367 watts (W) reaches each square meter (m2) of the  outer edge of the Earth’s atmosphere. The atmosphere absorbs and  reflects some of this radiation, including most X-rays and ultraviolet  rays. Still, the amount of sunshine energy that hits the surface of the  Earth every minute is greater than the total amount of energy that the  world’s human population consumes in a year! PV modules covering 0.3% of the land in the United States, one-fourth  the land occupied by roadways, could supply all the electricity  consumed here. The combined efforts of industry and the Department of Energy have  reduced PV system costs by more than 300% since 1982.small Solar Panel Inverter
The PV market  is estimated to be growing at 20% per year today. The number of U.S.  companies producing PV panels has doubled since the late 1970s to  about 20 today. *(Research projections from the DoE predict a further 10  fold decrease in PV costs in the next 25 years (It was on their site))* The cost of larger PV systems (greater than 1 kW) is measured in “levelized” costs per kWh–the costs are spread out over the system lifetime and divided by kWh output. The levelized cost is now about  $0.25 to $0.50/kWh. At this price, PV is cost effective for residential  customers located farther than a quarter of a mile from the nearest utility  line. Reliability and lifetime are steadily improving; PV manufacturers  guarantee their products for up to 20 years. OFFICIAL NAME: United States of America CAPITAL: Washington DC SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT: Federal Multiparty Republic AREA: 9,372,608 Sq Km (3,618,784 Sq Mi)        *(0.3%=28117.824sq mi  would equal a space 167.683-mi by 167.683-mi        OR less then 3.5sq mi  per state.)* ESTIMATED 2000 POPULATION: 271,290,000 The conversion efficiency of a PV cell is the proportion of sunlight  energy that the cell converts to electrical energy. This is very important  when discussing PV devices, because improving this efficiency is vital to  making PV energy competitive with more traditional sources of energy  (e.g., fossil fuels). Naturally, if one efficient solar panel can provide as  much energy as two less-efficient panels, then the cost of that energy  (not to mention the space required) will be reduced. For comparison, the  earliest PV devices converted about 1%-2% of sunlight energy into  electric energy. Today’s PV devices convert 7%-17% of light energy into  electric energy. *(This means “”WHEN”" efficiency levels reach 20-35%  the us will need only 0.15% surface area to power the entire US)* Most importantly, many renewable energy sources, such as wind power  and solar thermal, are already cheaper than conventional fuels– even  though the price of fossil fuels and nuclear power does not reflect their  full environmental and economic costs. Many of these renewable energy options can be designed, built, and exploited locally and at less costs than conventional systems. They contribute significantly to national economies because they exploit indigenous labour and materials. In Kenya more rural households obtain their electricity from solar energy than from the official policy of grid extension. The European Commission’s ‘Power for the World Program’ (a global  photo voltaic action plan) estimates that providing solar electricity to a billion people in the developing world would cost $60 billion ($3 billion a year for 20 years). This is only 3% of annual energy investments in developing countries and less than 0.5% of current military expenditure. **(This says “”DEVELOPING”" countries annual energy investments.   That means it would equal even less than that % for developed  countries.  Let me do a little math here: if $60 billion=1 billion people  when 6 billion people would mean 6*60=$360 billion.  Round it up to $400  to be sure.  This means $20 billion a year for 20 years and the entire  worlds population can be living off of Solar power, and believe me $20  billion is chump change to the ENTIRE world’s economic markets, hell  100 billion a year is still chump change!)** small Solar Panel Inverter
. Buildings use about two-thirds of the electricity generated in the United States. There is also a great deal of space on the roofs and walls of these buildings that could support PV generation capacity. According to one study, between 270 and 320 megawatts of PV would be cost-effective on buildings at a system cost of $3000 per kilowatt. Incorporating PV into buildings at the design and construction stage lowers costs and  increases the value of the electricity generated. Although BOS components (such as inverters, batteries, support  structures, junction boxes, and control systems) represent just half the  cost of PV systems, they are responsible for as much as 99% of system  failure and repair problems. The goal here is to increase the efficiency of  these components, increase their reliability through optimized designs,  and reduce their costs through mass production. ***** ps. check out these two specific pages as well:  http://www.nrel.gov/ncpv/powerout.html  http://www.nrel.gov/ncpv/spectrocell.html *****         And just today I went back to alt.energy.renewable to find  your email address and I saw that you made quite a number of  posts to that thread.  IMPRESSIVE!  What I did not see in your  immediate post to the above or in the any of your posts in the  thread that I looked at was any refutation of any of the  information above.        Sure, you quoted that 6% number you like to use a lot, from  where you found it who knows.  I would guess that it is meant to  represent the amount of energy that “WILL” be provided to the  world “REALISTICALLY” by your standards and that it does  not represent the amount of power that “COULD/CAN/”, and  probably will be eventually be, provided to the world from  renewable energy sources.  Could you please tell me where your  number comes from?  Is it possible, I wonder, that you think  renewable energy sources can TECHNOLOGICALLY never  ever provide more than a tiny fraction of the energy that our  ”power hog” civilization uses?  Could you clarify this too please?       Your main reasoning for thinking that nuclear will win over  any other energy source, as far as I can tell and ignoring safety  for the moment, is price.  When PV reaches its additional 10- fold decrease in price, as predicted in the info above, and then  costs only 2.5 to 5 cents per kWh and if you supplement with  wind power, which is and has always been cheaper than solar  and will undoubtedly still be then, then renewable energy will very likely cost less than 1 cent per kWh.  And of course this is  where you say, (delivered with the tone of a repetitive chant) “but  nuclear power will still be cheaper than that!”  Well YEAH  DUHHhhh of course it can be….  Remember that other post  where you said that back before cars had mandatory safety  standards/features people bought dangerous cars like the ‘Corvair’ because they liked the danger thrill.  Well in the same  way people will buy renewable energy supplies because they  like it.  At the incredibly low prices that will be available for  almost any type of power source in 25-30 years the kind you  use will all be a matter of choice and/or life style.      Now back to safety.  I did not say that nuclear energy could  never be safe.  It is possible that we could use nuclear (from this  point onward) for a thousand years and never have another  accident, but back to the paragraph above it increasingly  becomes a matter of personal choice.  By the way I pick up this  feeling from your writing that you believe the only people who  could ever be trusted to handle nuclear power sources without fail are Americans, Russians not caring about human life,  Japanese too sloppy, etc. etc.  Could you please clear this one  up for me?       Oh, and when I encouraged everyone to read what I had  above I meant to personally “CHALLENGE” you to do so.   Offer me some pro-nuclear propaganda (and I mean the word  ’propaganda’ in a joking manner as I consider any kind of  argumentative text to be propaganda, yes even the stuff I believe  in), and I will read it in return.       Anyways….. My reason for sending this email to you is not  just to word-bash your anti-solar stand.  My main reason for  sending this email to you is to finish a post I started a very long  time ago.small Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

I got the e-mail, but I decided against sending a return recipt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A WHILE AGO I SENT THE FOLLOWING EMAIL TO RYAN HEALEY,small Solar Panel Inverter
BUT HE HAS NOT RESPONDED SO FAR.  I GUESS HE IS NOT UP TO MY CHALLENGE AS FOR THE REST OF THE PEOPLE HERE YOU REALLY SHOULD READ THIS INCREDIBLE BOOK MENTIONED IN THE Some of you say that nukes will supply ‘more’ power than Renewable  sources will. need THAT much power. Renewable energy sources can provide all the power that humanity  needs, and when enough renewable energy collectors are built to supply  all of that power we will simply not need Nuclear Energy anymore. I went looking around and I found a wonderful site that has a lot of good information about PV. You have probably heard of this organization before it is called: THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY!!! **background trumpets** You can find their PV division here:   hsmall Solar Panel Inverter
Each second, the sun releases an enormous amount of radiant energy  into the solar system. The Earth receives a tiny fraction of this energy;  still, an average of 1367 watts (W) reaches each square meter (m2) of the  outer edge of the Earth’s atmosphere. The atmosphere absorbs and  reflects some of this radiation, including most X-rays and ultraviolet  rays. Still, the amount of sunshine energy that hits the surface of the  Earth every minute is greater than the total amount of energy that the  world’s human population consumes in a year! PV modules covering 0.3% of the land in the United States, one-fourth  the land occupied by roadways, could supply all the electricity  consumed here. The combined efforts of industry and the Department of Energy have  reduced PV system costs by more than 300% since 1982. The PV market  is estimated to be growing at 20% per year today. The number of U.S.  companies producing PV panels has doubled since the late 1970s to  about 20 today. *(Research projections from the DoE predict a further 10  fold decrease in PV costs in the next 25 years (It was on their site))* The cost of larger PV systems (greater than 1 kW) is measured in “levelized” costs per kWh–the costs are spread out over the system lifetime and divided by kWh output. The levelized cost is now about  $0.25 to $0.50/kWh. At this price, PV is cost effective for residential  customers located farther than a quarter of a mile from the nearest utility  line. Reliability and lifetime are steadily improving; PV manufacturers  guarantee their products for up to 20 years. OFFICIAL NAME: United States of America CAPITAL: Washington DC SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT: Federal Multiparty Republic AREA: 9,372,608 Sq Km (3,618,784 Sq Mi)        *(0.3%=28117.824sq mi  would equal a space 167.683-mi by 167.683-mi        OR less then 3.5sq mi  per state.)* ESTIMATED 2000 POPULATION: 271,290,000 The conversion efficiency of a PV cell is the proportion of sunlight  energy that the cell converts to electrical energy. This is very important  when discussing PV devices, because improving this efficiency is vital to  making PV energy competitive with more traditional sources of energy  (e.g., fossil fuels). Naturally, if one efficient solar panel can provide as  much energy as two less-efficient panels, then the cost of that energy  (not to mention the space required) will be reduced. For comparison, the  earliest PV devices converted about 1%-2% of sunlight energy into  electric energy. Today’s PV devices convert 7%-17% of light energy into  electric energy. *(This means “”WHEN”" efficiency levels reach 20-35%  the us will need only 0.15% surface area to power the entire US)* Most importantly, many renewable energy sources, such as wind power  and solar thermal, are already cheaper than conventional fuels– even  though the price of fossil fuels and nuclear power does not reflect their  full environmental and economic costs. Many of these renewable energy options can be designed, built, and exploited locally and at less costs than conventional systems. They contribute significantly to national economies because they exploit indigenous labour and materials. In Kenya more rural households obtain their electricity from solar energy than from the official policy of grid extension. The European Commission’s ‘Power for the World Program’ (a global  photo voltaic action plan) estimates that providing solar electricity to a billion people in the developing world would cost $60 billion ($3 billion a year for 20 years). This is only 3% of annual energy investments in developing countries and less than 0.5% of current military expenditure. **(This says “”DEVELOPING”" countries annual energy investments.   That means it would equal even less than that % for developed  countries.  Let me do a little math here: if $60 billion=1 billion people  when 6 billion people would mean 6*60=$360 billion.  Round it up to $400  to be sure.  This means $20 billion a year for 20 years and the entire  worlds population can be living off of Solar power, and believe me $20  billion is chump change to the ENTIRE world’s economic markets, hell  100 billion a year is still chump change!)** http://www.nrel.gov/ncpv/powerout.html http://www.nrel.gov/ncpv/spectrocell.html http://www.eren.doe.gov/pv/ Building Opportunities in the United States for Photovoltaics. Buildings use about two-thirds of the electricity generated in the United States. There is also a great deal of space on the roofs and walls of these buildings that could support PV generation capacity. According to one study, between 270 and 320 megawatts of PV would be cost-effective on buildings at a system cost of $3000 per kilowatt. Incorporating PV into buildings at the design and construction stage lowers costs and  increases the value of the electricity generated. Although BOS components (such as inverters, batteries, support  structures, junction boxes, and control systems) represent just half the  cost of PV systems, they are responsible for as much as 99% of system  failure and repair problems. The goal here is to increase the efficiency of  these components, increase their reliability through optimized designs,  and reduce their costs through mass production. ***** ps. check out these two specific pages as well: small Solar Panel Inverter
And just today I went back to alt.energy.renewable to find  your email address and I saw that you made quite a number of  posts to that thread.  IMPRESSIVE!  What I did not see in your  immediate post to the above or in the any of your posts in the  thread that I looked at was any refutation of any of the  information above.        Sure, you quoted that 6% number you like to use a lot, from  where you found it who knows.  I would guess that it is meant to  represent the amount of energy that “WILL” be provided to the  world “REALISTICALLY” by your standards and that it does  not represent the amount of power that “COULD/CAN/”, and  probably will be eventually be, provided to the world from  renewable energy sources.  Could you please tell me where your  number comes from?  Is it possible, I wonder, that you think  renewable energy sources can TECHNOLOGICALLY never  ever provide more than a tiny fraction of the energy that our  ”power hog” civilization uses?  Could you clarify this too please?       Your main reasoning for thinking that nuclear will win over  any other energy source, as far as I can tell and ignoring safety  for the moment, is price.  When PV reaches its additional 10- fold decrease in price, as predicted in the info above, and then  costs only 2.5 to 5 cents per kWh and if you supplement with  wind power, which is and has always been cheaper than solar  and will undoubtedly still be then, then renewable energy will very likely cost less than 1 cent per kWh.  And of course this is  where you say, (delivered with the tone of a repetitive chant) “but  nuclear power will still be cheaper than that!”  Well YEAH  DUHHhhh of course it can be….  Remember that other post  where you said that back before cars had mandatory safety  standards/features people bought dangerous cars like the ‘Corvair’ because they liked the danger thrill.small Solar Panel Inverter
Well in the same  way people will buy renewable energy supplies because they  like it.  At the incredibly low prices that will be available for  almost any type of power source in 25-30 years the kind you  use will all be a matter of choice and/or life style.      Now back to safety.  I did not say that nuclear energy could  never be safe.  It is possible that we could use nuclear (from this  point onward) for a thousand years and never have another  accident, but back to the paragraph above it increasingly  becomes a matter of personal choice.small Solar Panel Inverter
By the way I pick up this  feeling from your writing that you believe the only people who  could ever be trusted to handle nuclear power sources without fail are Americans, Russians not caring about human life,  Japanese too sloppy, etc. etc.  Could you please clear this one  up for me?       Oh, and when I encouraged everyone to read what I had  above I meant to personally “CHALLENGE” you to do so.   Offer me some pro-nuclear propaganda (and I mean the word  ’propaganda’

small Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

Question:

I have noticed that a lot of you pro-nukers keep saying,Solar Panel Inverter battery “Nukes are safer that coal! Nukes are safer that coal!”  You may or may not be right on that but you should realize coal IS NOT a renewable energy source. To be more in line with the topic of this newsgroup it would be better if you were comparing nuclear AND coal to say… PV for example.  Then we would be comparing the safety of nuclear (which no matter how safe still has the ‘possibility’ of malfunctioning) and coal (which we all know is at current very polluting) to PV (which as far as I know the modules themselves are inert, (chemically and radiogenically) have no moving parts, and are only as dangerous as sharp, broken glass when they break).

Look into the chemicals used to manufacture PVs. . . When nuclear reactors are shut down, or prevented from starting up, most of the power comes from fossil fuels, a noticable chunk from hydro, and a piddling amount from “renewables”.Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

I have noticed that a lot of you pro-nukers keep saying, “Nukes are safer that coal! Nukes are safer that coal!”  You may or may not be right on that but you should realize coal IS NOT a renewable energy source. To be more in line with the topic of this newsgroup it would be better if you were comparing nuclear AND coal to say… PV for example.Solar Panel Inverter battery   Then we would be comparing the safety of nuclear (which no matter how safe still has the ‘possibility’ of malfunctioning) and coal (which we all know is at current very polluting) to PV (which as far as I know the modules themselves are inert,Solar Panel Inverter battery  (chemically and radiogenically) have no moving parts, and are only as dangerous as sharp, broken glass when they break).

Response:

-Solar Panel Inverter battery  I have noticed that a lot of you pro-nukers keep saying, “Nukes are safer that coal! Nukes are safer that coal!”  You may or may not be right on that but you should realize coal IS NOT a renewable energy source. To be more in line with the topic of this newsgroup it would be better if you were comparing nuclear AND coal to say… PV for example.  Then we would be comparing the safety of nuclear (which no matter how safe still has the ‘possibility’ of malfunctioning) and coal (which we all know is at current very polluting) to PV (which as far as I know the modules themselves are inert, (chemically and radiogenically) have no moving parts, and are only as dangerous as sharp, broken glass when they break). Look into the chemicals used to manufacture PVs. . . When nuclear reactors are shut down, or prevented from starting up, most of the power comes from fossil fuels, a noticable chunk from hydro, and a piddling amount from “renewables”. (By the way, from many standards, nuclear is “renewable”.)

… It doesn’t matter how much power is generated from coal if we are talking about renewable energy. Coal is no more a renewable energy source than oil, gas or nuclear. The chemicals used to manufacture PVs are used to manufacture them and are not shipped with the panels themselves for the most part. When you do get a PV panel it is as about as dangerous as a sheet of glass and even with the most catastrophic failures it won’t leak poison, radiation or cause most any other injury. I find it hard to think of a less dangerous piece of equipment to generate electricity. We could also look at some of the chemicals and procedures used to refine nuclear fuel. I’m sure these are much worse, and in much larger quantities, than PV manufacturing uses.Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

Solar Panel Inverter battery I have noticed that a lot of you pro-nukers keep saying, “Nukes are safer that coal! Nukes are safer that coal!”  You may or may not be right on that but you should realize coal IS NOT a renewable energy source. To be more in line with the topic of this newsgroup it would be better if you were comparing nuclear AND coal to say… PV for example.  Then we would be comparing the safety of nuclear (which no matter how safe still has the ‘possibility’ of malfunctioning) and coal (which we all know is at current very polluting) to PV (which as far as I know the modules themselves are inert, (chemically and radiogenically) have no moving parts, and are only as dangerous as sharp, broken glass when they break). Look into the chemicals used to manufacture PVs. . . When nuclear reactors are shut down, or prevented from starting up, most of the power comes from fossil fuels, a noticable chunk from hydro, and a piddling amount from “renewables”. (By the way, from many standards, nuclear is “renewable”.) … It doesn’t matter how much power is generated from coal if we are talking about renewable energy. Coal is no more a renewable energy source than oil, gas or nuclear. The chemicals used to manufacture PVs are used to manufacture them and are not shipped with the panels themselves for the most part. When you do get a PV panel it is as about as dangerous as a sheet of glass and even with the most catastrophic failures it won’t leak poison, radiation or cause most any other injury. I find it hard to think of a less dangerous piece of equipment to generate electricity. We could also look at some of the chemicals and procedures used to refine nuclear fuel. I’m sure these are much worse, and in much larger quantities, than PV manufacturing uses.Solar Panel Inverter battery.  Then we would be comparing the safety of nuclear (which no matter how safe still has the ‘possibility’ of malfunctioning) and coal (which we all know is at current very polluting) to PV (which as far as I know the modules themselves are inert, (chemically and radiogenically) have no moving parts, and are only as dangerous as sharp, broken glass when they break). Look into the chemicals used to manufacture PVs. . . When nuclear reactors are shut down, or prevented from starting up, most of the power comes from fossil fuels, a noticable chunk from hydro, and a piddling amount from “renewables”. (By the way, from many standards, nuclear is “renewable”. It doesn’t matter how much power is generated from coal if we are talking about renewable energy. Coal is no more a renewable energy source than oil, gas or nuclear.

Uranium can be extracted from the oceans. Rivers renew that uranium continuously, in amounts far more than we’d need if all our power was nuclear. Thus, “renewable”. The chemicals used to manufacture PVs are used to manufacture them and are not shipped with the panels themselves for the most part. When you do get a PV panel it is as about as dangerous as a sheet of glass and even with the most catastrophic failures it won’t leak poison, radiation or cause most any other injury. I find it hard to think of a less dangerous piece of equipment to generate electricity. We could also look at some of the chemicals and procedures used to refine nuclear fuel. I’m sure these are much worse, and in much larger quantities, than PV manufacturing uses. Anthony

Nuclear makes considerably more power, so it likely does use more chemicals in refining it’s fuel. Solar Panel Inverter battery  nuclear is safer then hydro, nuclear is safer then wind, nuclear is safer then Solar thermal, there done. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have noticed that a lot of you pro-nukers keep saying, “Nukes are safer that coal! Nukes are safer that coal!”  You may or may not be right on that but you should realize coal IS NOT a renewable energy source. To be more in line with the topic of this newsgroup it would be better if you were comparing nuclear AND coal to say… PV for example.  Then we would be comparing the safety of nuclear (which no matter how safe still has the ‘possibility’ of malfunctioning) and coal (which we all know is at current very polluting) to PV (which as far as I know the modules themselves are inert, (chemically and radiogenically) have no moving parts, and are only as dangerous as sharp, broken glass when they break).

Response:

… We could also look at some of the chemicals and procedures used to refine nuclear fuel. I’m sure these are much worse, and in much larger quantities, than PV manufacturing uses. Anthony Nuclear makes considerably more power, so it likely does use more chemicals in refining it’s fuel. Noting that ‘you’re sure’, please let us know how much of what chemicals each power source uses.

… Well, once created a solar PV panel does not require any chemicals or produce any kind of toxic waste. Even if a panel were to fail completely, be smashed to pieces or melted down into slag it is still not hazardous, can be handled by people without the use of lead suits, and can be disposed of easily without threat to dozens of future generations.Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

Solar Panel Inverter battery

We could also look at some of the chemicals and procedures used to refine nuclear fuel. I’m sure these are much worse, and in much larger quantities, than PV manufacturing uses. Anthony Nuclear makes considerably more power, so it likely does use more chemicals in refining it’s fuel. Noting that ‘you’re sure’, please let us know how much of what chemicals each power source uses. … Well, once created a solar PV panel does not require any chemicals or produce any kind of toxic waste. Even if a panel were to fail completely, be smashed to pieces or melted down into slag it is still not hazardous, can be handled by people without the use of lead suits, and can be disposed of easily without threat to dozens of future generations.

Batteries may be part of the installation and they will also have to be disposed of.Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

You heard of Si, what about those new panels that will be using GaAs. I wouldn’t call those harmless, and they will stay around until diluted, don’t you wish that every so often the amount of those materials halved like it does with nuclear waste. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, once created a solar PV panel does not require any chemicals or produce any kind of toxic waste. Even if a panel were to fail completely, be smashed to pieces or melted down into slag it is still not hazardous, can be handled by people without the use of lead suits, and can be disposed of easily without threat to dozens of future generations.Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

OK then, nuclear is safer then hydro, nuclear is safer then wind, nuclear is safer then Solar thermal, there done.

He got it all in one line.  This one should take care of the Week and the Month. I’ll bet he’s not done.

Response:

…, don’t you wish that every so often the amount of those materials halved like it does with nuclear waste.

No. It’s that little squrirt of  radiation that accompanies the split that is the problem –georges

Response:

The chemicals used to manufacture PVs are used to manufacture them and are not shipped with the panels themselves for the most part. When you do get a PV panel it is as about as dangerous as a sheet of glass and even with the most catastrophic failures it won’t leak poison, radiation or cause most any other injury. I find it hard to think of a less dangerous piece of equipment to generate electricity.

The sorry ass lead-acid batteries that are usually attached to those PV panels are toxic waste.  Without batteries/storage device, PV panels are kind of useless.

Response:

The sorry ass lead-acid batteries that are usually attached to those PV panels are toxic waste.  Without batteries/storage device, PV panels are kind of useless.

Toxic waste? You mean like the battery in your car? News flash to codeman: those batteries are recycleable. And there are solar panels and inverters designed to work without batteries. As in remote water pumping, and selling power back to the utility. But you knew all that, right?Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

Disposing dead PV modules is not an issue yet, but neither was the disposal of other things that contained toxic materials. I’ll bet that there are people quietly reading these newsgroup postings and thinking how they can make a profit recycling or using semiconductor waste. Has anyone come up with a socially acceptable way to profit from nuclear or coal power plant waste?Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

But radiation isn’t that bad, quite a lot better then Oxygen. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …, don’t you wish that every so often the amount of those materials halved like it does with nuclear waste. No. It’s that little squrirt of  radiation that accompanies the split that is the problem –georges

Response:

But radiation isn’t that bad, quite a lot better then Oxygen. No. It’s that little squrirt of  radiation that accompanies the split that is the problem

Actually, it is that bad, especially if you are a lung cell. The microscopic radioactive dust particle gets trapped in your lung, emits a bit of radiation, damages the local dna, and makes damaged cells. Eventually, one of those damaged cells will be hardy enough to reproduce itself and spread, ie, become cancerous Do you really believe exposure to radiactive decay is better for living tissue than exposure to oxygen?Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

The microscopic radioactive dust particle gets trapped in your lung, emits a bit of radiation, damages the local dna, and makes damaged cells. Eventually, one of those damaged cells will be hardy enough to reproduce itself and spread, ie, become cancerous

“will” become cancerous, or “might”?. This is the hot particle theory. John Hughes Before you buy. Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

The sorry ass lead-acid batteries that are usually attached to those PV panels are toxic waste.

No more or less than the ones in cars, and they are recycled Without batteries/storage device, PV panels are kind of useless.

Unless, of course, it is grid intertied, Solar Panel Inverter battery

Response:

You heard of Si, what about those new panels that will be using GaAs.

GaAs panels are currently used almost exclusively in space applications. It is possible they can be made economical for terrestrial use by using them in concentrator arrays. Even in such a case, though, they’ll really only be feasible in areas with lots of direct sunlight (deserts, basically). At any rate, your thought isn’t original and studies have been performed to see whether toxins leach out of GaAs and CdTe modules when broken and exposed to the elements (studies have also been done on the smoke produced by burning a CdTe module). No danger has been found. Soil under a pulverized module left exposed to rain for a year was found to have only slightly elevated levels of Ga and As, and levels below those considered safe in the U.S. and Europe. This just demonstrates that the Ga and As atoms are pretty tightly bound to one another and, as a result, it’s difficult to remove either element from the module without chemistry. The same goes for CdTe,Solar Panel Inverter battery  whether pulverized or exposed to fire. I might also point out that GaAs has already entered many people’s homes in the form of the semiconductor laser used to read CDs and DVDs. To my knowledge there are no health hazards associated with owning, using, or servicing these lasers (aside from not pointing the laser into your eye).

Response:

Disposing dead PV modules is not an issue yet, but neither was the disposal of other things that contained toxic materials. I’ll bet that there are people quietly reading these newsgroup postings and thinking how they can make a profit recycling or using semiconductor waste. Has anyone come up with a socially acceptable way to profit from nuclear or coal power plant waste?

The real issue in landfilling dead PV modules has nothing to do with the cell fabrication process. The primary issue is the lead contained in the solder — IIRC, PV modules are just on the safe side of the borderline for legal landfill disposal. Recycling of the silicon from used PV modules has gotten much better. If the silicon wafers can be removed from the module without breakage they can usually be reused without having to melt them down, saving a ton of energy. One group has even improved the efficiencies of the cells it recycled (which is actually not that surprising if you’re familiar with high-temperature silicon processing).Solar Panel Inverter battery  quite a lot better then Oxygen. No. It’s that little squrirt of  radiation that accompanies the split that i s the problem Actually, it is that bad, especially if you are a lung cell. The microscopic radioactive dust particle gets trapped in your lung, emits a bi t of radiation, damages the local dna, and makes damaged cells. Eventually, one of those damaged cells will be hardy enough to reproduce itself and spread, ie, become c ancerous Do you really believe exposure to radiactive decay is better for living tissue than exposure to oxygen? –georges

Thermal effects in cells lead to far more DNA errors than low level radiation. Low level radiation seems to stimulate the body’s mechanisms for dealing with cancerous cells. As well, cancerous cells, from all causes, tend to have a faster metabolic rate, making them very suseptable to damage from radiation. —       Karl Johanson,  Victoria B.C. Canada -It’s okay to disagree with me. However, once I explain where you’re wrong you’re supposed to become enlightened & change your mind.Solar Panel Inverter battery  We could also look at some of the chemicals and procedures used to refine nuclear fuel. I’m sure these are much worse, and in much larger quantities, than PV manufacturing uses. Anthony Nuclear makes considerably more power, so it likely does use more chemicals in refining it’s fuel. Noting that ‘you’re sure’, please let us know how much of what chemicals each power source uses. … Well, once created a solar PV panel does not require any chemicals or produce any kind of toxic waste. Even if a panel were to fail completely, be smashed to pieces or melted down into slag it is still not hazardous, can be handled by people without the use of lead suits, and can be disposed of easily without threat to dozens of future generations. Batteries may be part of the installation and they will also have to be disposed of.Solar Panel Inverter battery

The sorry ass lead-acid batteries that are usually attached to those PV panels are toxic waste. No more or less than the ones in cars, and they are recycled

So can spent nuclear fuel. Without batteries/storage device, PV panels are kind of useless. Unless, of course, it is grid intertied, or you use all the power produced

Yeah, you could just use PV to charge a laptop while your in the field.

Response:

But radiation isn’t that bad, quite a lot better then Oxygen. No. It’s that little squrirt of  radiation that accompanies the split that is the problem Actually, it is that bad, especially if you are a lung cell. The microscopic radioactive dust particle gets trapped in your lung, emits a bit of radiation, damages the local dna, and makes damaged cells. Eventually, one of those damaged cells will be hardy enough to reproduce itself and spread, ie, become cancerous

Radiation does more damage to cancer then to healthy cells.Solar Panel Inverter battery  Do you really believe exposure to radiactive decay is better for living tissue than exposure to oxygen?

Do you know what happens if you consume too much Oxygen? You die from it. Radiation we could recieved about 10 times the background without a problem, no increased risk of cancer and no vomiting.

Response:

Yes, the same can be said about nuclear waste as what you said about the solar cells. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You heard of Si, what about those new panels that will be using GaAs.Solar Panel Inverter battery  GaAs panels are currently used almost exclusively in space applications. It is possible they can be made economical for terrestrial use by using them in concentrator arrays. Even in such a case, though, they’ll really only be feasible in areas with lots of direct sunlight (deserts, basically). At any rate, your thought isn’t original and studies have been performed to see whether toxins leach out of GaAs and CdTe modules when broken and exposed to the elements (studies have also been done on the smoke produced by burning a CdTe module). No danger has been found. Soil under a pulverized module left exposed to rain for a year was found to have only slightly elevated levels of Ga and As, and levels below those considered safe in the U.S. and Europe. This just demonstrates that the Ga and As atoms are pretty tightly bound to one another and, as a result, it’s difficult to remove either element from the module without chemistry. The same goes for CdTe, whether pulverized or exposed to fire. I might also point out that GaAs has already entered many people’s homes in the form of the semiconductor laser used to read CDs and DVDs. To my knowledge there are no health hazards associated with owning, using, or servicing these lasers (aside from not pointing the laser into your eye).

Response:

Question:

Hi, I’m looking into replacing my 12volt,small Solar Panel Inverter
10watt halogen trailer lights with 12volt white LED lights.  I’ve read that LEDs use a lot less power. In Ontario at this time of year, the days are pretty short and I’m having trouble recharging my batteries with my solar panels.  Rather than get more batteries and/or solar pannels, I think I should try finding more efficient light fixtures.small Solar Panel Inverter
I’ve found the following sources for 12volt LED fixtures: http://www.jademountain.com/dcltsLED.html http://www.realgoods.com/renew/cat/lights/dclight.htm I find these prices rather high (especially considering the US$-Candian$ exchange rate). I was wondering: 1) if anyone has tried LED lighting?  What do you think? 2) they are supposed to be white.  Are they really? 3) how many LEDs (1, 3 or 6 etc.) per fixture would I need to match the light output of a 10watt halogen bulb? 4) as a way of making the conversion cheaper, I’d like to retrofit my existing fixtures with white LEDs.  Does anyone know of a source for just the white LED itself?  I’ve retrofitted several fixtures to use halogen peanut bulbs – I think I’m up to the task.small Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

Lsmall Solar Panel Inverter
. In Ontario at this time of year, the days are pretty short and I’m having trouble recharging my batteries with my solar panels.  Rather than get more batteries and/or solar pannels, I think I should try finding more efficient light fixtures. I was wondering: 1) if anyone has tried LED lighting?  What do you think?

I use it for backup lights for caving to augment my headlamp system, and I’m going to be using them in my house for night lighting since my house has few windows and it gets rather dark at night since we run a PV system.  I buy discrete LEDs from electronics suppliers. 2) they are supposed to be white.  Are they really?

Very bluish white since they are really a blue LED with a phosphor coating on the chip. 3) how many LEDs (1, 3 or 6 etc.) per fixture would I need to match the light output of a 10watt halogen bulb?

At rough estimate, 100-200 would match the perceived light (but not the actual light) from such a bulb.  Of course, you can go with fewer and just adapt to less light.  But again, the amount of light they put out measured by the actual radiation is less than that of a regular or quartz-halogen bulb on a lumens per watt basis. 4) as a way of making the conversion cheaper, I’d like to retrofit my existing fixtures with white LEDs.  Does anyone know of a source for just the white LED itself?  I’ve retrofitted several fixtures to use halogen peanut bulbs – I think I’m up to the task.

Hosfelt’s Electronics out of Ohio is where I get mine. I really would recommend compact fluorescents.  They are hands down the most efficient source of lighting for home use.small Solar Panel Inverter
A 10 watt CF bulb puts out the same lumen rating as a 40 watt quartz-halogen bulb.  I’ve seen CFs as low as 5 watts which would reduce your power use and increase your available light, a win-win situation.small Solar Panel Inverter
I use one in my house in a strategic location to provide night lighting in the winter (when the extra heat in the house isn’t a problem) so I can find my way around in the dark.  Some types of lamps will be ok for reading, others not so good. — Anmar Mirza #Chief of Tranquility#I’m a cheap date,small Solar Panel Inverter
. I’ll pick up a cheapo decorative kerosene lamp and give it a try.  You are probably right about the poorly trimmed wick (we can never find scissors when we need them). I’ve also considered using inside propane lanterns, since we do have propane.   We use Coleman propane lanterns outside and they are very bright and use very little propane.  They are loud and smelly.   I have only seen ugly, dinky little inside guys like the one at: http://www.realgoods.com/renew/cat/lights/flshlite.htm Maybe that’s the best there is?  If anyone knows of a better source, please let me know. The bit about “Propane mantles emit low-level ionizing radiation due to their thorium content” is discouraging.  I think maybe I’ll leave the propane lanterns outside.small Solar Panel Inverter

Thanks againg for the response.  I appreciate the help. I’ve considered a kerosene lamp or lantern.  We have a few of them. We tend to scatter them around outside.  The ones we have don’t put out much light, smell bad and the glass keeps getting black.  The ones we have are really cheap junk – can’t stand to use them indoors because they give me a sore throat.  We bought them at Canadian Tire

If you’re getting a sore throat from kerosene lanterns, you might have a carbon monoxide problem (that can be one of the symptoms).  Is this a small travel trailer?  Or is it used in a small room with poor ventilation?  Poorly designed lanterns or poorly trimmed wicks can increase carbon monoxide production and used inside a small space with poor ventilation, while probably won’t kill you,  can make you sick.small Solar Panel Inverter
for about $20 each (if that means anything to you).  Can you suggest a source for better ones?

I like those small decorative lamps, the kind that are clear that you can fill with colored lamp oils or kerosene.  You can pick them up for $5-10 all over the place.  They burn for days on an ounce or two of oil and are less likely to cause CO problems.  Look in gift shops and similar places.  Candles would work pretty well, too, two or three of them for reading isn’t too bad at all. I keep my brass lantern on a hook by the door so I can grab it when I want to go out at night.  Even though I have flashlights galore, I like the type of light it gives and the shadows it creates. Four LEDs in a bank sounds like a very good idea.  I guess it is better to produce light with my volts than heating up a resister.

Exactly.  It is fortunate that 4 of them in series work with a 12v system (and 2 in a 6v system which is what my caving lights are).  small Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

I’ve considered a kerosene lamp or lantern.  We have a few of them. We tend to scatter them around outside.  The ones we have don’t put out much light, smell bad and the glass keeps getting black.  The ones we have are really cheap junk – can’t stand to use them indoors because they give me a sore throat.  We bought them at Canadian Tire for about $20 each (if that means anything to you).  Can you suggest a source for better ones?

Sounds like you run the flame too high or the wick isn’t properly trimmed. small Solar Panel Inverter
, Coleman manufactures it.  The whole lamp is about the size of my fist.  It uses a single mantle and puts off about 2/3s the light of a larger single mantle stove. The bit about “Propane mantles emit low-level ionizing radiation due to their thorium content” is discouraging.  I think maybe I’ll leave the propane lanterns outside.

Don’t have them inside when you first light up the mantle.  Otherwise for the most part, thorium is an alpha emitter, a couple of feet of air or a sheet of paper stops it.  The glass of the globe is more than enough shielding.  Regardless, it’s a very low level of emission, lower than that of the recommended guidelines for radon (whose daughters are also alpha emitters).  The only danger is inhaling the smoke when it’s first lit and the mantle burns down, or inhaling the ash when changing mantles, and even then the radiation exposure is pretty low.  I’d be more worried about the CO emissions inside your trailer as they are certain to be more than a kerosene lantern (for what it’s worth, in a small trailer like that, leaving a couple of windows cracked on either side of the trailer can eliminate most CO hazard from small combustion sources like lamps).small Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

I don’t live in it or anything like that.  I just spend my weekends and vacations there.  It isn’t in a ‘trailer park’.  It is in a forest.  I’ve never been wiped out by a tornado or abducted by aliens. We’re just now starting to use it in the winter and I’m finding my solar system unable to cope with my energy demands.

So upgrade your solar system to the point where it does handle things…  like the rest of us <G — BulkMailers and Email address compilers may purchase this individual email address for $25000.00 for use in their products. Anyone selling this email address or utilizing this email address for any commercial usage without a license from ShadowMAC is in violation of private property rights and violators WILL be be invoiced for usage.small Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

Oh yes, in that application they’ll work great.  Four of them in series will work with a 12v system and not require a resistor and draw 10-20 milliamps.  That would be plenty for reading.  (yes, I’ve built lighting systems for both 6 volt and 12 volt systems using white LEDs)

This is an easy way to burn up most LEDs, they are close to constant voltage devices and will draw high currents if subjected to slightly higher than normal voltages.  The series resistor acts as a ballast, limiting the current as the voltage fluctuates.  ”12-volt” voltage can range from 10.5 volts to 14+ volts, discharge to full recharge.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh yes, in that application they’ll work great.  Four of them in series will work with a 12v system and not require a resistor and draw 10-20 milliamps.  That would be plenty for reading.  (yes, I’ve built lighting systems for both 6 volt and 12 volt systems using white LEDs) This is an easy way to burn up most LEDs, they are close to constant voltage devices and will draw high currents if subjected to slightly higher than normal voltages.  The series resistor acts as a ballast, limiting the current as the voltage fluctuates.small Solar Panel Inverter
“12-volt” voltage can range from 10.5 volts to 14+ volts, discharge to full recharge.

Funny, when I said I’ve built the systems using the LEDs I recommended, I thought that would indicate that I knew what I was talking about.  Obviously not.  At 11 volts four of the Nichia White LEDs in series draws about 2mA. At 12.5 they drew 12mA.  At 14 volts they draw about 30mA.  Theoretically they wouldn’t exceed their specs until the voltage reached about 16 volts. I wasn’t willing to up the voltage beyond 15 volts because that would have been an expensive test.  I was using a variable voltage supply with both current and voltage monitoring to run my tests. Adding any resistance to this would result in decreased low voltage lighting performance.  Since the times when they are needed the most are apt to be times when they battery bank isn’t being charged, and at 12.5 volts they were only drawing 12mA (they are rated for 20 with a peak at 40), I felt that even adding a few ohms of resistance would have been detrimental to light output on the lower end of the scale, especially since the high end of the scale was still within spec).small Solar Panel Inverter
If you have any actual experience with the white LEDs in the configuration I mentioned and you had problems, I’d be interested in hearing about them and the conditions that led to the problems.small Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

This is an easy way to burn up most LEDs, they are close to constant voltage devices and will draw high currents if subjected to slightly higher than normal voltages. Funny, when I said I’ve built the systems using the LEDs I recommended, I thought that would indicate that I knew what I was talking about.

Before this erupts into a flame war, let me congratulate both of you on being right! White LEDs are indeed useable without resistors over the relatively narrow voltage range of a “12V” lead-acid battery, although the current does vary greatly. I measure a 5 to 26 mA current over a 2.9 to 3.5 V voltage range (per LED) which agrees with the measurements as stated for 4  LEDs in series. However, in general applications it’s not a good idea to use LEDs without a current limiting resistor due to the possibility of small voltage variations destroying the device. Also, the resistor is necessary if you want to keep the current (and brightness) reasonably constant over the full range of battery voltage (using only 3 LEDs, with lower overall brightness for the same current).small Solar Panel Inverter
The tradeoff as always is up to the user.small Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

Before this erupts into a flame war, let me congratulate both of you on being right! White LEDs are indeed useable without resistors over the relatively narrow voltage range of a “12V” lead-acid battery, although the current does vary greatly. I measure a 5 to 26 mA current over a 2.9 to 3.5 V voltage range (per LED) which agrees with the measurements as stated for 4  LEDs in series. However, in general applications it’s not a good idea to use LEDs without a current limiting resistor due to the possibility of small voltage variations destroying the device. Also, the resistor is necessary if you want to keep the current (and brightness) reasonably constant over the full range of battery voltage (using only 3 LEDs, with lower overall brightness for the same current).small Solar Panel Inverter
The tradeoff as always is up to the user.

Actually if you want to maintain voltage and current, you are better off just putting one of those in-expensive voltage regulators together, cost me about $2.00 for mine.   Resistors are fine if your voltage and amperage are constant, but if you charge and discharge then that will regularly change and thus so will your resulting current thru the resistor, so if you want to really protect those LEDs and maintain a constant illumination level do so with a voltage regulator. — BulkMailers and Email address compilers may purchase this individual email address for $25000.00 for use in their products. Anyone selling this email address or utilizing this email address for any commercial usage without a license from ShadowMAC is in violation of private property rights and violators WILL be be invoiced for usage. Selling what you do not own is THEFT of private property!!!small Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

Actually if you want to maintain voltage and current, you are better off just putting one of those in-expensive voltage regulators together, cost me about $2.00 for mine.

But that just ensures that your power drain will be constant, while your illumination, instead of varying, will stay at the low end of the range. ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

Response:

Actually if you want to maintain voltage and current, you are better off just putting one of those in-expensive voltage regulators together, cost me about $2.00 for mine. But that just ensures that your power drain will be constant, while your illumination, instead of varying, will stay at the low end of the range. small Solar Panel Inverter

Maybe low end for you.  Personally I match my regulator to the quantity of LEDs I want to use…  there are more flavors of regulation than merely 12VDC at 100ma or 1/4 amp or 1/2 amp or 1 amp or higher.  Sure if you only use a 12VDC at 1 amp regulator and utilize more LEDs than 1 amp of supply can properly supply, then of course you are at the low end, but there is a thing known as balancing your supply against your consumption. — BulkMailers and Email address compilers may purchase this individual email address for $25000.00 for use in their products. Anyone selling this email address or utilizing this email address for any commercial usage without a license from ShadowMAC is in violation of private property rights and violators WILL be be invoiced for usage. Selling what you do not own is THEFT of private property!!! This is domain policy.small Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

Question:

Within the last few months,small Solar Panel Inverter
Wired magazine ran a piece on various computer companies looking into the possibility of powering laptops with hand-cranks.  The report I heard (never saw the article myself) suggests that they were especially talking to BayGen, the company that makes hand-cranked (andPV) powered radios and lanterns. However, I know from experience that BayGen is way behind in production of at least their lanterns as I have had one on back-order from Jade Mountain (www.jademountain.com) since January.small Solar Panel Inverter
I would also look into the possibility of treadle power as your quadriceps are much more powerful than your wrists.

Response:

Anyone that thinks they can get any real power out of the hand or foot cranked gizmos has never actually tried one for long.  Most people would be straining very hard to get as much as a 100 watt solar panel would put out. Even a 40 watt laptop would get tiring very quickly – and it’s hard to type at the same time.small Solar Panel Inverter

small Solar Panel Inverter
Within the last few months, Wired magazine ran a piece on various computer companies looking into the possibility of powering laptops with hand-cranks.  The report I heard (never saw the article myself) suggests that they were especially talking to BayGen, the company that makes hand-cranked (andPV) powered radios and lanterns. However, I know from experience that BayGen is way behind in production of at least their lanterns as I have had one on back-order from Jade Mountain (www.jademountain.com) since January. I would also look into the possibility of treadle power as your quadriceps are much more powerful than your wrists.

Response:

Within the last few months, Wired magazine ran a piece on various computer companies looking into the possibility of powering laptops with hand-cranks.small Solar Panel Inverter
The report I heard (never saw the article myself) suggests that they were especially talking to BayGen, the company that makes hand-cranked (andPV) powered radios and lanterns. However, I know from experience that BayGen is way behind in production of at least their lanterns as I have had one on back-order from Jade Mountain (www.jademountain.com) since January. I would also look into the possibility of treadle power as your quadriceps are much more powerful than your wrists.

It seems self-contradictory, somehow.  I mean, how the heck are you going to be able to pay attention to your work on the computer when you’re too busy pumping a treadle?  I’m serious– 20 or 30 watts (25 food calories per hour, neglecting bodily conversion inefficiencies) is not a trivial drain on the body in that it will definitely distract you.  It’s hard to concentrate on a business proposal when you have to keep after yourself to keep that treadle going.          small Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

power out of the hand or foot
cranked gizmos has never actually tried one for long.  Most people
would be straining very hard to get as much as a 100 watt solar panel
would put out. Even a 40 watt laptop would get tiring very quickly -
and it’s hard to type at the same time.
–
Electricity from the Sun since 1979
small Solar Panel Inverter
.  The report I heard (never saw the article myself)
suggests
that they were especially talking to BayGen, the company that makes
hand-cranked (andPV) powered radios and lanterns.

However, I know from experience that BayGen is way behind in
production
of at least their lanterns as I have had one on back-order from Jade
Mountain (www.jademountain.com) since January.

I would also look into the possibility of treadle power as your

quadriceps are much more powerful than your wrists.

I just put on a show at the w2k expo in Pittsburgh showcasing our D.C.
voltage hand crank generator; that can power radios, lights , AC  power
tools, inverters or charge batteries. Using our unit takes little effort
and a child can power a  clock radio with ease at about 10 very very easy
rev’s per 60 seconds at a very loud full volume. 25 watts sustainable is
very likely depending on user. unit is capable of much higher output
requiring suitable driving force. Unit comes with two regulated outputs, a
13.5 volt 5 amp output and a 1.5 amp 5 volt output.  We can make 13.5 volt
output variable output if you require. We can also up the current rating
up to 10 or even 20 amps if you are thinking of driving our unit with a gas
motor or with wind power if you modify our unit which is not to hard if you
are good with your hands . Our generator motor is abile to output much more
than the human arm can develop.small Solar Panel Inverter
Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

The bay gen products enable you to pump ( or treadle ) for a few minutes and allow the equipment to run about 1/2 hour afterwards from what I have heard.small Solar Panel Inverter
Within the last few months, Wired magazine ran a piece on various computer companies looking into the possibility of powering laptops with hand-cranks.  The report I heard (never saw the article myself) suggests that they were especially talking to BayGen, the company that makes hand-cranked (andPV) powered radios and lanterns. However, I know from experience that BayGen is way behind in production of at least their lanterns as I have had one on back-order from Jade Mountain (www.jademountain.com) since January. I would also look into the possibility of treadle power as your quadriceps are much more powerful than your wrists.    It seems self-contradictory, somehow.  I mean, how the heck are you going to be able to pay attention to your work on the computer when you’re too busy pumping a treadle?  I’m serious– 20 or 30 watts (25 food calories per hour, neglecting bodily conversion inefficiencies) is not a trivial drain on the body in that it will definitely distract you.  It’s hard to concentrate on a business proposal when you have to keep after yourself to keep that treadle going.     small Solar Panel Inverter

Remove “nospam” to e-mail. “God and the soldier we adore, in times of trouble but not before, when the trouble is over and the world is righted, God is forgotten and the soldier slighted.” –scrawled inside a Prussian sentry box, circa 1700 Remove spam from address to e-mail me. small Solar Panel Inverter

Response:

<<Anyone that thinks they can get any real power out of the hand or foot cranked gizmos has never actually tried one for long.  Most people would be straining very hard to get as much as a 100 watt solar panel would put out. Even a 40 watt laptop would get tiring very quickly – and it’s hard to type at the same time. I’m typing this on a Mac powerbook with a 30 watt-hour (how’s that for a unit) battery that gets me at least 2 hrs of computing,small Solar Panel Inverter
so I’mj using 15 watts tops. What do you have in your expansion bay… a blender?

Response:

Question:

I have gotten some ideas from reading this newsgroup, but none that apply specifically to my situation. I’d like any recommendations about the best way to power a mountain house still in the planning stages.Solar Panel Inverter diagram  The house site is 0.9 miles up a rough road and the REMC estimates $50,000 to get power up there – overhead is almost as much as buried along the road in this case. The neighbors say their REMC power only goes out about twice a year. It is to be a 4-bedroom family home, and will sometimes be unattended for over six weeks at a time. I think I’ll need at least 60 kW peak. PV is probably out (because the community wouldn’t like to see a cleared mountainside with a bunch of solar panels) and there’s not enough water for microhydro. If you can answer *any* of the following questions, please give me your opinion: 1. Is off-grid reasonable given the situation? 2. Since I’m apparently stuck with a generator if I go off-grid, should I go propane or diesel? 3. Should I consider batteries and an inverter or just go with a big generator(s)? Solar Panel Inverter diagram . Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance Peter Bradshaw

Response:

If you can answer *any* of the following questions, please give me your opinion: 1. Is off-grid reasonable given the situation?

It is for me…. I get 60 kwh per month, without a problem… 2. Since I’m apparently stuck with a generator if I go off-grid, should I go propane or diesel?

Go Solar… 3. Should I consider batteries and an inverter or just go with a big generator(s)?

Batteries and an inverter… and PV panels… I’m on one track here  Solar Panel Inverter diagram. Any other suggestions?

I live in a highly controlled neighborhood… and  my  panels are below  the  fence line… they  can’t be  seen  by  the  neighbors… and anyway… federal  law favors  alt forms of energy…  If  you need  60  kwh per month… then  that’s  what  my  six,  90  watt panels produce… I  still  have  six more  panels  that are not yet hooked up… so  I can produce,  with 12 panels,  120  kwh  per month,  when they are hooked up…  The Twelve panels,  which I paid $4 a watt, plus all the cables, and other hookup stuff, and my inverter,  and charge controller,  and  4, Golf Cart  batteries, cost me almost exactly, $6000… So… this setup will give me  power for the rest of my life… and probably the rest  of my  daughter’s life,  and maybe  even,  my grandson’s life… or until,  some high  efficient  and cheap  PV’s come along to replace them… I have a web page with PV details, Solar Panel Inverter diagram

Response:

From your message it sounds like things don’t break down and batteries don’t need to be amortized if you take care of them That’s what I don’t have a feel for. I’d be afraid something would break and, with no attention for six weeks, things would spin out of control. Is it really a “set it up and forget it” situation? Peter Bradshaw

-Solar Panel Inverter diagram  I get 60 kwh per month, without a problem… 2. Since I’m apparently stuck with a generator if I go off-grid, should I go propane or diesel? Go Solar… 3. Should I consider batteries and an inverter or just go with a big generator(s)? Batteries and an inverter… and PV panels… I’m on one track here  :-D 4. Any other suggestions? I live in a highly controlled neighborhood… and  my  panels are below  the  fence line… they  can’t be  seen  by  the  neighbors… and anyway… federal  law favors  alt forms of energy…  If  you need  60  kwh per month… then  that’s  what  my  six,  90  watt panels produce… I  still  have  six more  panels  that are not yet hooked up… so  I can produce,  with 12 panels,  120  kwh  per month,  when they are hooked up…  The Twelve panels,  which I paid $4 a watt, plus all the cables, and other hookup stuff, and my inverter,  and charge controller,  and  4, Golf Cart  batteries, cost me almost exactly, $6000… So… this setup will give me  power for the rest of my life… and probably the rest  of my  daughter’s life,  and maybe  even,  my grandson’s life… or until,  some high  efficient  and cheap  PV’s come along to replace them… I have a web page with PV details, Solar Panel Inverter diagram

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geo-thermal for heat,Solar Panel Inverter diagram  savonius turbines for easy to hide wind generation, biodiesel for additional electric, batteries for on peak usage.  make the house so efficient that it could be heated on not much more than the heat of the people inside, airlocks on all doors, bury it in the ground so that only the roof and the top floor windows show.  use tunnel windows with glazing on the inside and on the surface, maybe robo mirrors to redirect the light to cut the day electric usage, especially during the winter.  get a water tube boiler and a steam generator for electricity, use some of the wood on the lot, have a part of the lot set aside as a personal tree farm, flowers around the bottom so that passers-by don’t see the stumps.  get a thousand gallon fibreglass tank, bury it, use it as the septic system, add some yard waste and some manure, collect the methane for a gas cooktop and maybe for a gas furnace, before the first tank fills up get a new one in the ground, when the second almost fills up start filling the first one for continuous production.     i suppose i could come up with more, but do you really want to have read that jumble for several more pages, i could tell you haw to do some of it by e-mail, just say when.     and besides, you can save on the construction costs by burying it, use concrete and recycled steel i-beams from demoed high rises, could probably get em cheaper than wood. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have gotten some ideas from reading this newsgroup, but none that apply specifically to my situation. I’d like any recommendations about the best way to power a mountain house still in the planning stages. The house site is 0.9 miles up a rough road and the REMC estimates $50,000 to get power up there – overhead is almost as much as buried along the road in this case. The neighbors say their REMC power only goes out about twice a year. It is to be a 4-bedroom family home, and will sometimes be unattended for over six weeks at a time. I think I’ll need at least 60 kW peak. PV is probably out (because the community wouldn’t like to see a cleared mountainside with a bunch of solar panels) and there’s not enough water for microhydro. If you can answer *any* of the following questions, please give me your opinion: 1. Is off-grid reasonable given the situation? 2. Since I’m apparently stuck with a generator if I go off-grid, should I go propane or diesel? 3. Should I consider batteries and an inverter or just go with a big generator(s)Solar Panel Inverter diagram? w

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1. Is off-grid reasonable given the situation?

I’m not sure what you mean by “60 kw peak”.  An accurate energy survey of your needs is absolutely required before considering going off-grid.  This involves not only determining peak loads, but also total energy consumption (kwh/unit of time), and seasonal variation. 2. Since I’m apparently stuck with a generator if I go off-grid, should I go propane or diesel?

Why can’t you put PV on your roof?  It would be unobtrusive, although you’d have to have a roof faced in the correct direction and at the right angle. Cost may be an issue, but that depends critically on your energy use.  If energy use is high, wind systems are usually more economical.  If energy use is low, PV systems are better. Neighbors, and you, might object to the noise of a constantly running generator.  Unless you put it in a sound attenuating building some distance from your main house. 3. Should I consider batteries and an inverter or just go with a big generator(s)? 4. Any other suggestions?

Do an energy survey of your house.Solar Panel Inverter diagram  Learn about watts, kilowatt-hrs, etc. Try to minimize the use of electricity and you may find you can get along with a roof-mounted PV system without changing life style (like my neighbor does here in Downeast Maine). If you can’t reduce your energy use enough, it may turn out to be more economical, in the long run, to pay for the grid extension. Solar Panel Inverter diagram

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$50k and a right of way easement vs. producing your own power. What’s to decide? 1. Do an energy audit. List combined peak loads and kWh/day. There are lots of people in this NG that will help you with practical ideas for energy conservation and efficiency. (Don’t let the ranters distract you from your goal.) 2. Where are you located? 3. Consider a PV/gen set hybrid system. The PV array can start out small and be expanded to eventually phase out the fossil fuel machine. Solar Panel Inverter diagram.  In your case it will probably be cheaper depending on how much your neighbors are paying for power.  A complete site survey and workup will tell you the economics of the system (pay little attention to those who run the calculations here on the group, there are a lot of variables that cannot be accounted for without a site survey and local information). 2. Since I’m apparently stuck with a generator if I go off-grid, should I go propane or diesel?

I would go diesel.  Propane may burn cleaner but you are limited to propane suppliers in your area.  With diesel you can shop around a bit more.  Also look into cogeneration systems, it’s a shame to waste the heat from the genset if you can avoid it, it’ll make your system a lot more efficient. 3. Should I consider batteries and an inverter or just go with a big generator(s)?

I would definately go with batteries and an inverter, it will allow you to run the generator much less and you can use a smaller genset, running it near it’s optimal efficiency.  Plus you can always add solar or wind to the system as you desire, thus relying on the generator even less.  In addition, you have some built in backup. Chances are pretty good the entire system could be put in for less than the $50k the utility wants for powerlines. ($10k for a good genset and installation, $15k for batteries and inverter and installation, $10k for misc as a back of the envelope calculation).Solar Panel Inverter diagram

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From your  (Gigawatt’s) message it sounds like things don’t break down and batteries don’t need to be amortized if you take care of them That’s what I don’t have a feel for. I’d be afraid something would break and, with no attention for six weeks, things would spin out of control. Is it really a “set it up and forget it” situation?

I tell people interested in getting into alternative energy that how reliable it is depends on two things (assuming proper installation): How much work you are willing to put in, OR How much money you are willing to spend. In general, the more you are willing to spend the less work you have to put in to it. I have no problem leaving my system by itself for a couple of weeks at a time and mine isn’t especially costly. Also, something I neglected to mention in my oter post, how much you are willing to reduce your power usage makes a huge difference in how much you are going to spend initially.Solar Panel Inverter diagram  I have gotten some ideas from reading this newsgroup, but none that apply specifically to my situation. I’d like any recommendations about the best way to power a mountain house still in the planning stages. The house site is 0.9 miles up a rough road and the REMC estimates $50,000 to get power up there – overhead is almost as much as buried along the road in this case. The neighbors say their REMC power only goes out about twice a year. It is to be a 4-bedroom family home, and will sometimes be unattended for over six weeks at a time. I think I’ll need at least 60 kW peak. PV is probably out (because the community wouldn’t like to see a cleared mountainside with a bunch of solar panels) and there’s not enough water for microhydro. If you can answer *any* of the following questions, please give me your opinion: 1. Is off-grid reasonable given the situation? 2. Since I’m apparently stuck with a generator if I go off-grid, should I go propane or diesel? 3. Should I consider batteries and an inverter or just go with a big generator(s)? 4. Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance Peter Bradshaw

Go to http://www.homepower.com  They have many articles online, including their latest issue. Order the Solar 2 CD ($29.95) and maybe even the others. There’s enough info on the Solar 2 CD to keep you reading for weeks. And it’s not just solar. It’s also microhydro, wind and generators. Really good info and some articles on deciding just what you are asking. Unfortunately, at some point after the issues on CD 2, the staff got envirowacky and the articles are less useful in my opinion.Solar Panel Inverter diagram

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Take another look at PV systems if $50k is your budget.  Depending on your daily power consumption you could put all the panels you need on one single tracker.  If you don’t like the sunflower panel effect put them on your roof, although it will probably take a couple more in that situation.  The average house has more than enough roof space for full solar power. A properly installed system can be very low maintenance, and batteries can last 5 years+ after which time they are recycled.  Regarding leaving the system unattended for long periods of time (even months) there is almost no problem, but speaking with a local installer and giving them details should be part of that evaluation. I think PV power has been the best move I ever made in my life so far. Energy independence and reliability is a wonderful thing. I won’t kid you, I’m very partial to clean energy technologies and think that we have to use these if we want to clean up our planet. With a budget like $50k I’d hope you take a serious look at itSolar Panel Inverter diagram

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Solar Panel Inverter diagram  Depending upon your timeframe, you  may fit into a fuel cell.  Currently, these are only available in very limited quantities at high prices, but should be more available for home use soon (like over the next year or two).  If you needed, you could probably get by with a generator unit and minimal battery backup in the meantime, depending upon what your energy needs really are.  Fuel cells show a decent promise of meeting the needs of the typical to large home at a reasonable price and currently, can be fueled with propane.  Of course, once the demand for propane goes up due to higher use, the actual cost of the fuel may rise some, but still, for off-grid, it seems the fuel cell is a good way to go.  Now, if you could only get one today….   Of course, if the cold-fusion boys ever get things sorted out, it could be a whole different ball game, but I’m not holding my breath.Solar Panel Inverter diagram  I have gotten some ideas from reading this newsgroup, but none that apply specifically to my situation. I’d like any recommendations about the best way to power a mountain house still in the planning stages. The house site is 0.9 miles up a rough road and the REMC estimates $50,000 to get power up there – overhead is almost as much as buried along the road in this case. The neighbors say their REMC power only goes out about twice a year. It is to be a 4-bedroom family home, and will sometimes be unattended for over six weeks at a time. I think I’ll need at least 60 kW peak. PV is probably out (because the community wouldn’t like to see a cleared mountainside with a bunch of solar panels) and there’s not enough water for microhydro. If you can answer *any* of the following questions, please give me your opinion: 1. Is off-grid reasonable given the situation? 2. Since I’m apparently stuck with a generator if I go off-grid, should I go propane or diesel? 3. Should I consider batteries and an inverter or just go with a big generator(s)? Solar Panel Inverter diagram  Depending upon your timeframe, you  may fit into a fuel cell. Currently, these are only available in very limited quantities at high prices, but should be more available for home use soon (like over the next year or two).  If you needed, you could probably get by with a generator unit and minimal battery backup in the meantime, depending upon what your energy needs really are.  Fuel cells show a decent promise of meeting the needs of the typical to large home at a reasonable price and currently, can be fueled with propane.  Of course, once the demand for propane goes up due to higher use, the actual cost of the fuel may rise some, but still, for off-grid, it seems the fuel cell is a good way to go.

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you won’t need 60kw if you pay attention to the design of the house (passive/active solar), the efficiency of your appliances, and general conservation. pv roofing tiles will take care of the visual image (although, in some parts of the country it’s not legal to deny pv) so, see answers below…..Solar Panel Inverter diagram  I have gotten some ideas from reading this newsgroup, but none that apply specifically to my situation. I’d like any recommendations about the best way to power a mountain house still in the planning stages. The house site is 0.9 miles up a rough road and the REMC estimates $50,000 to get power up there – overhead is almost as much as buried along the road in this case. The neighbors say their REMC power only goes out about twice a year. It is to be a 4-bedroom family home, and will sometimes be unattended for over six weeks at a time. I think I’ll need at least 60 kW peak. PV is probably out (because the community wouldn’t like to see a cleared mountainside with a bunch of solar panels) and there’s not enough water for microhydro. If you can answer *any* of the following questions, please give me your opinion: 1. Is off-grid reasonable given the situation?

yes, but reduce that 60kw requirement. 2. Since I’m apparently stuck with a generator if I go off-grid, should I go propane or diesel?

either works well. biodiesel if you can make it yourself (I do) 3. Should I consider batteries and an inverter or just go with a big generator(s)?

batteries, inverter, pv roof tiles, biodiesel generator for cloudy days. maybe a wind genny or 2. 4. Any other suggestions?

think I made them already. Solar Panel Inverter diagram  should I go propane or diesel? Go Solar… 3. Should I consider batteries and an inverter or just go with a big generator(s)? Batteries and an inverter… and PV panels… I’m on one track here  :-D 4. Any other suggestions? I live in a highly controlled neighborhood… and  my  panels are below  the  fence line… they  can’t be  seen  by  the  neighbors… and anyway… federal  law favors  alt forms of energy…  If  you need  60  kwh per month… then  that’s  what  my  six,  90  watt panels produce… I  still  have  six more  panels  that are not yet hooked up… so  I can produce,  with 12 panels,  120  kwh  per month,  when they are hooked up…  The Twelve panels,  which I paid $4 a watt, plus all the cables, and other hookup stuff, and my inverter,  and charge controller,  and  4, Golf Cart  batteries, cost me almost exactly, $6000… So… this setup will give me  power for the rest of my life… and probably the rest  of my  daughter’s life,  and maybe  even,  my grandson’s life… or until,  some high  efficient  and cheap  PV’s come along to replace them… I have a web page with PV details, Solar Panel Inverter diagram

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Question:

We are considering a beautiful mountain property but there is no electric or phone service, and I assume no lines can be run the 2-4 miles into the property because they would cross national forest lands. We really want to live on this spot but must have phone and power. Fortunately there is a stream and several springs on the land,Solar Panel Inverter inverters  so hydro may work to solve one of the issues. Phone (and Internet access) has us stumped. There is no clear line of site to a telephone pole for a wireless local loop (WLL) system and I suspect cellular towers are out of reach. Any suggestions most welcome.Solar Panel Inverter inverters  Hank Before you buy.

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We are considering a beautiful mountain property but there is no electric or phone service, and I assume no lines can be run the 2-4 miles into the property because they would cross national forest lands.

Not necessarily.  You may have to jump through some hoops, but talk to the phone company, electric company, and Forest Service and see if you can get permission to lay wire across Forest Service land.  If not, talk to your Congressperson or Senator.  What about running the lines along the road that you use to get up to your place?  The lines up to our place run along U.S., State, and County roads, so there must be some sort of program for utiltiies to get right of way (rural electrification and all that). BTW, around here (northern New Mexico) U.S. West charges  outrageous amounts to run phone line.  One of our neighbors wanted a line at their place, 4 miles from the nearest existing line; they were quoted about $100,000.  They said “no thanks”. to live on this spot but must have phone and power. Fortunately there is a stream and several springs on the land,Solar Panel Inverter inverters  so hydro may work to solve one of the issues. Phone (and Internet access) has us stumped. There is no clear line of site to a telephone pole for a wireless local loop (WLL) system and I suspect cellular towers are out of reach.

You might want to look into a satellite phone.  I looked into them over a year ago (mostly out of curiosity).  At that time, they were about $2000 for the phone and $1/minute to connect.  The prices have probably come down.  I’ve heard that there’s a lot of bandwidth (satellites) up there; the technology is ready, they’re trying to get their acts together business-wise (especially after Iridium went belly-up), but there should be a bunch of bandwidth coming online in the next few years, which will make for cheaper satellite phones.Solar Panel Inverter inverters

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Solar Panel Inverter inverters  The phone company buried a line into the property. Total cost, less than $100. Took a year to get the forest service permits, and there is a terrible lightning problem, but it is there and it works. 2 miles of underground cable had to be laid. Power company, different story. $25,000 over a 10 year contract. Not bloody likely. So. Small generator, battery pack, Heart Interface Inverter. Solar panels in the works. Good luck. Marion Skydancer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We are considering a beautiful mountain property but there is no electric or phone service, and I assume no lines can be run the 2-4 miles into the property because they would cross national forest lands. We really want to live on this spot but must have phone and power. Any suggestions most welcome.Solar Panel Inverter inverters

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I think there are two other options: 1) A conventional radio-phone, with the receiver mounted someplace the phone co. can get to it. Fairly expensive. 2) Find the direction of the nearest cell phone tower. Grab a neighbor’s satellite TV dish (the small ones) and go up to the property with a cell phone. You may be able to amplify a weak cellular signal to usable levels with a permanently mounted parabolic dish with the cell phone antenna mounted at the focus. A “bag phone” will have a higher power output and will reach farther than a hand-held. Greg Porter P.S. If anyone out there has done the WLL (wireless local loop) thing, to the previous person, but I have line of sight to a telephone pole.Solar Panel Inverter inverters

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Hank Don’t make assumptions about power or phone service. Most people go by what the agent or neighbors tell them, which is often so oversimplified that it’s useless. The tariffs can be complicated, particularly when it comes to cost sharing for line extensions. Call the local providers, and get specific with your situation. Sometimes the costs are outrageous, other times they’re not. If you haven’t checked, the easements may already exist for all you know. If wires are impractical, then start browsing solar power dealer web sites for off grid advice, many have tons of info to get you started. Satellite internet access is available now (one-way), but you need at least cell service for the uplink. Call the local cell provider, the area may be served already. If not, ask about their plans for new cell sites, your area may get service in the near future. Two-way satellite internet service should be widely available within about 2 years. One (affordable) service is being beta tested now, and limited  service should begin this fall. If you want to read how we managed it, some 10 miles from the wires, check out our site at www.ctaz.com~wmbjk . Includes many links you might find useful. One last point. Tracking down all the stuff you need to find out about prospective property is worth the effort. If it’s a little difficult, all the better, because most others won’t bother. Your reward may be a good deal on a piece of property that might not be as hard to develop as everyone else assumed. Best of luck, Wayne Solar Panel Inverter inverters. It’s analog, so the rates are not competative with digital cellular in the city. I need a bag phone, and the cell gets overcrowded on holiday weekends. Weather can also be a factor. The 900mhz phones seems like a viable alternative for me. I haven’t figured out the internet side yet, but I’m hoping that I’ll learn something from an upcoming article in OffLine Online. For power, I have a propane generator, and a bank of 6V golf cart batteries. Refrigerator is propane powered. That covers me to run a small trailer, do water pumping from a shallow well, and powers a small trailer. I’ll need more when I build a house, so I’ll do some PV, and perhaps a small wind generator. For big power, I have great homes for a propane powered Hydrogen Fusl cell by www.plugpower.com. But, thats a year or so away from being available. I just bought 600 watts of PV panels, and am looking for an inverter and charge controller to complete that system. I may get a small wind generator in the future also. My summer project is to build to house to mount all the generating stuff on. So, there are lots of feasible ways to solve those problems… and it’s fun doing it.Solar Panel Inverter inverters

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If you want to read how we managed it, some 10 miles from the wires, check out our site at Solar Panel Inverter inverters  We just recently bought a beautiful off-grid property in Vermont and have been loving it.  Luckily, it does have phone service.  It has a propane fridge (Dometic, excellent), propane hot water, propane stove/oven, propane wall lamps, propane heat plus a soapstone wood stove for heat. It is also wired with a remote start generator for electricity but we’ve hardly used that.  It’s on a fast running river plus there’s a small stream, so I’ve thought about microhydro, but not sure I need it or that it’s worth it.  I’ve also thought about an inverter, but again, not really needed.  The couple that lived there before us used the genny regularly… had a satellite dish and other electric stuff.  We really don’t plan on watching any TV there so we’ll just use the gen sporadically.  I’ve had laptop with connection to the internet no problem, but again we have phone service.  If I had a cell connection, I’d dump the phone. BTW, if you’re thinking about mortgaging the property, beware.  You’ll have a hard time getting a conventional mortgage (at least I did). Good luck, I think you’ll enjoy the endeavor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are considering a beautiful mountain property but there is no electric or phone service, and I assume no lines can be run the 2-4 miles into the property because they would cross national forest lands. We really want to live on this spot but must have phone and power. Fortunately there is a stream and several springs on the land, so hydro may work to solve one of the issues. Phone (and Internet access) has us stumped. There is no clear line of site to a telephone pole for a wireless local loop (WLL) system and I suspect cellular towers are out of reach. Any suggestions most welcome. Hank Before you buy.

Before you buy.

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Lots of food for thought, thanksSolar Panel Inverter inverters. If you can find a friendly neighbor near a phone line that will let you put the network end of a radio telephone system (like a Uniden or Optophone) on his property you’re set…well, that and about $6k. That will support voice, fax and a modem, albeit at a max speed of around 19.2k. The old adage “Speed cost money, How fast do you want to Go?” applys here…I have a friend with an ISP selling Aironet wireless connections running 128k bps at a range of about 7 miles. The options are out there. At (hope I get this right): http://rredc.nrel.gov under the solar energy data you will find a 30 year average of solar and weather data by month for 259 locations giving you an idea of insolation, temps, wind, etc. This may help you figure out the available power you can tap. I’m putting this on the new Solar5 CD for Home Power magazine because it’s great info but it’s available free online. People have been powering their homes independently for a long time and we’ve been cronicleing these for nearly 12 years. Check out our website at http://www.homepower.com Regards, Don We are considering a beautiful mountain property but there is no electric or phone service, and I assume no lines can be run the 2-4 miles into the property because they would cross national forest lands. We really want to live on this spot but must have phone and power. Fortunately there is a stream and several springs on the land, so hydro may work to solve one of the issues. Phone (and Internet access) has us stumped. There is no clear line of site to a telephone pole for a wireless local loop (WLL) system and I suspect cellular towers are out of reach.

Solar Panel Inverter inverters We are considering a beautiful mountain property but there is no electric or phone service, and I assume no lines can be run the 2-4 miles into the property because they would cross national forest lands. We really want to live on this spot but must have phone and power. Fortunately there is a stream and several springs on the land, so hydro may work to solve one of the issues. Phone (and Internet access) has us stumped. There is no clear line of site to a telephone pole for a wireless local loop (WLL) system and I suspect cellular towers are out of reach. Any suggestions most welcome. Hank Before you buy.

Power is not a problem Solar Can provide what you need. Best thing is Micro Hydro. You only need a 7 meters of head to get power. If this is possable you are on a winner. The phone is another thing, What is the cost of direct satellite connection there. Out hear it is out of the question at the moment but Aust. can be up to twenty years behinh the US. When you approach the power co get a quote for the complete job connected to the house. George L Ghio Solar Power Consultant

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Solar Panel Inverter inverters if you’re thinking about mortgaging the property, beware.  You’ll have a hard time getting a conventional mortgage (at least I did). Good luck, I think you’ll enjoy the endeavor.

I did some research on this back on the mid 80s when i was looking to buy a rural home.  Its not only difficult to get a mortgage on property without utilities, its also near impossible to get fire insurance on the property. Most insurance companies charge by how far you are from the nearest hydrant or fire station.  One place i looked at the insurance would have been about $100/month for a $60,000 house that actually did have electricty and phone service but was way out (like 15 miles from the fire dept). I never did find anything around here that suited my needs.  it was either too far out, or so expesnive I did not want to put up the money for it.  i finally settled for a nice 3 bedroom 2 house with detached 2 car garage in a suburban environment next to a cemetary so i only have one neighbor. Learn all about how the NSA spys on you.  Search on “Project Echelon” at your favorite search engine.  Another service brought to you by the Clintons.

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Thanks to everyone for responding. The electric supply question has us less concerned (relatively speaking) at this point. The lack of clear line of sight (the property is in the Allegheny mountains of Virginia) would seem to rule out a radio telephone system if I understand the technology. I believe cellular phones would be out as well since no tower is in the area. I’ve come to rely heavily on my Internet connection and we definitely want a phone for staying in touch with city-bound family members. If we relocate to a more remote property the need for reliable electronic communication becomes even more critical. Is there a list of experts/consultants who could study a given site and offer suggestions exists for various areas of the country? The land we are considering is so remarkable. The odds of a hunt club grabbing it is breaking our hearts. Hank – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Even if you could run the lines it’s probably far cheaper and definitly more satisfying to make your own power. If you can use hydro (and have a combination of head and volume that works) it will be the cheapest power source but a combination hybrid Solar/Hydro system might be ideal. If you can find a friendly neighbor near a phone line that will let you put the network end of a radio telephone system (like a Uniden or Optophone) on his property you’re set…well, that and about $6k. That will support voice, fax and a modem, albeit at a max speed of around 19.2k. The old adage “Speed cost money, How fast do you want to Go?” applys here…I have a friend with an ISP selling Aironet wireless connections running 128k bps at a range of about 7 miles. The options are out there. At (hope I get this right): http://rredc.nrel.gov under the solar energy data you will find a 30 year average of solar and weather data by month for 259 locations giving you an idea of insolation, temps, wind, etc. This may help you figure out the available power you can tap. I’m putting this on the new Solar5 CD for Home Power magazine because it’s great info but it’s available free online. People have been powering their homes independently for a long time and we’ve been cronicleing these for nearly 12 years. Check out our website at http://www.homepower.com Regards, Don We are considering a beautiful mountain property but there is no electric or phone service, and I assume no lines can be run the 2-4 miles into the property because they would cross national forest lands. We really want to live on this spot but must have phone and power. Fortunately there is a stream and several springs on the land, so hydro may work to solve one of the issues.Solar Panel Inverter inverters  Phone (and Internet access) has us stumped. There is no clear line of site to a telephone pole for a wireless local loop (WLL) system and I suspect cellular towers are out of reach.

Solar Panel Inverter inverterse. The maximum allowed for hooking up a year round residence is approximately 8 times the standard residential ($2300) or $16,400. Going rate for running the wire is approximately $26,000 per mile, $52,000 total. We pay the difference in a lump but over the first 48 months  of service we can deduct as much as we use in power (if $100 per month, a total of $4800). This would leave us paying something like $30,800 for the hook-up. Many unknowns even with this. Co-op would need to secure access from national forest, difficulty of mountain terrain in laying wire, etc. The guy with the co-op opined the phone company could work with the same trench and have the power company lay their line at the same time. This is way to pricey, unless we planned to consume nearly $750 worth of juice in the first 4 years! Hank Before you buy.

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The property is 2 miles from the nearest pole. Solar Panel Inverter inverters  Thanks to everyone for responding. The electric supply question has us less concerned (relatively speaking) at this point. The lack of clear line of sight (the property is in the Allegheny mountains of Virginia) would seem to rule out a radio telephone system if I understand the technology. I believe cellular phones would be out as well since no tower is in the area. I’ve come to rely heavily on my Internet connection and we definitely want a phone for staying in touch with city-bound family members. If we relocate to a more remote property the need for reliable electronic communication becomes even more critical. Is there a list of experts/consultants who could study a given site and offer suggestions exists for various areas of the country? The land we are considering is so remarkable. The odds of a hunt club grabbing it is breaking our hearts.Solar Panel Inverter inverters

I’m no expert, but can you put in a retransmitter at some point between you and the phone network? All it would need is line of sight to you and line of sight to a network point.

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We are considering a beautiful mountain property but there is no electric or phone service, and I assume no lines can be run the 2-4 miles into the property because they would cross national forest lands. We really want to live on this spot but must have phone and power. Fortunately there is a stream and several springs on the land, so hydro may work to solve one of the issues. Phone (and Internet access) has us stumped. There is no clear line of site to a telephone pole for a wireless local loop (WLL) system and I suspect cellular towers are out of reach.

Microwave transmission is good for around 28 miles. This can be used for telephony and data. It is limited by line of sight though and can be a bit pricey. As for satellite, I think it will be a long way off before you will see “consumer” grade 2-way satellite communications. I work for the largest satellite owner in the world and we have enough problems w/ other “professional” satellite broadcasters interfering w/ other satellites and transmissions. Not to saying you can’t do it, but would call a pro to quote you some prices on the equipment, bandwidth, and installation (it will be expensive). Also keep in mind you will have a 1/2 second of latency (delay) in your telephone conversations. BTW someone had mentioned putting a cellular antenna in front of a DTH satellite antenna to direct the signal. I don’t think this will work, I’ll check w/ my companies antenna engineer and get back to ya. I hope this helps, Solar Panel Inverter inverters

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Microwave transmission is good for around 28 miles. This can be used for telephony and data. It is limited by line of sight though and can be a bit pricey. As for satellite, I think it will be a long way off before you will see “consumer” grade 2-way satellite communications. I work for the largest satellite owner in the world and we have enough problems w/ other “professional” satellite broadcasters interfering w/ other satellites and transmissions. Not to saying you can’t do it, but would call a pro to quote you some prices on the equipment, bandwidth, and installation (it will be expensive). Also keep in mind you will have a 1/2 second of latency (delay) in your telephone conversations.

This is for geosyncrhonous satellites.  The new bandwidths are not from geosynchronous, but from satellites in low earth orbit (300 miles, if memory serves correctly, but I could be off on this). Because they’re not geosyncrhonous, they work sort of like cellular phones: as one satellite goes out of range, another satellite comes in and the call it handed off to the new satellite.  Because they’re in low orbit, there’s no latency.Solar Panel Inverter inverters:-). Sid Gudes ANTI-SPAM: remove “_” after “pia” when replying

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I’m no expert, but can you put in a retransmitter at some point between you and the phone network? All it would need is line of sight to you and line of sight to a network point.

Winding mountain road, huge trees, you get the picture. No line of sight. Hank Before you buy.

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I’m no expert, but can you put in a retransmitter at some point between you and the phone network? All it would need is line of sight to you and line of sight to a network point. Winding mountain road, huge trees, you get the picture. No line of sight. Hank

But do you have line of sight to a point that has LOS to a network point? – if so that is where you place a retrans station.

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[snip] Phone (and Internet access) has us stumped. There is no clear line of site to a telephone pole for a wireless local loop (WLL) system and I suspect cellular towers are out of reach.

You would be surprised where cell phone service is available. Just because you can’t see a tower doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Solar Panel Inverter inverters  That will be pretty slow internet service (and expensive, too).Solar Panel Inverter inverters

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We are considering a beautiful mountain property but there is no electric or phone service, and I assume no lines can be run the 2-4 miles into the property because they would cross national forest lands. We really want to live on this spot but must have phone and power. Fortunately there is a stream and several springs on the land, so hydro may work to solve one of the issues. Phone (and Internet access) has us stumped. There is no clear line of site to a telephone pole for a wireless local loop (WLL) system and I suspect cellular towers are out of reach. Any suggestions most welcome. Hank Before you buy.

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If there is a road to your property there may be a way to run commercial power within the right-of-way of the road.  However, running a 2-4 plus miles of  commercial powerline (overhead/buried) will most likely be cost prohibitive. On your hydro power idea.  The water from the stream and springs maybe already spoken for as in ” Legal Water rights” by someone.  You may not be able to use it just because.  You need to check this out to see if you can even use it etc. You didn’t mention a PV system?  Just wondering? Some telephone companies can supply a radio-phone system that will handle internet access, but may not connect at the speed you desire.  Ask your phone provider to see if they offer the radio-phone system. Good luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are considering a beautiful mountain property but there is no electric or phone service, and I assume no lines can be run the 2-4 miles into the property because they would cross national forest lands. We really want to live on this spot but must have phone and power. Fortunately there is a stream and several springs on the land, so hydro may work to solve one of the issues. Phone (and Internet access) has us stumped. There is no clear line of site to a telephone pole for a wireless local loop (WLL) system and I suspect cellular towers are out of reach. Any suggestions most welcome. Hank Before you buy.

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