Question:

So I’d dearly love to go directly to a Bogor-bound flight (Garuda?).

Get a direct bus to Jakarta’s Gambir-train station (AC, about 3000 rp from Soukarno Hatta airport) takes about an hour. Then take the train (hourly schedule) to Bogor.solar water heater systems   Don’t even bother to spend time in Jakarta. And Bogor itself. Is there economical place to stay for 1 or 2 nights?

Plenty of them.  Try Arie’s (Ary’s ?)in the vicinity of the station or the Wisma Ramayana nearly oppose the post office. You definitely don’t need a hot shower in Indonesia.  Prices are about 7 dollar a night.solar water heater systems

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So I’d dearly love to go directly to a Bogor-bound flight (Garuda?).

Take a DAMRI bus from the airport to GAMBIR traing station (setasiun kereta api). Cost: less than $2. Buy a ticket on the train to Bogor – a real 1-1/2 hour rattler Cost: about 30 cents.solar water heater systems  In Bogor, there are hotels of every price range. Back packers in Jkt stay  in the Jalan Jaksa area.solar water heater systems  Alway take the BLUEBIRD taxis from Jkt airport – ignore the taxi touts. good travelling Evan Jones Riau Islands Indonesia

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Direct to Bogor? You’d probably be best off flying to Jakarta. You’re right, Jakarta is a   hustling metropole, noisy and smelly and the “orang Batawi”, the local   people, can be pretty aggressive, but the airport is big and quiet, and   if you can spare the expense you could take a taxi straight from there.   Bogor is not too far away from Jakarta.solar water heater systems

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: I might need to go to the Agriculture Faculty there. I haven’t sniffed around : yet, I don’t know which airlines rrive at the International airport at which : times (coming from the USA).solar water heater systems  I have the impression that Jakarta is not the : calmest or cheapest place in the world to spend an overnight. So I’d dearly love : to go directly to a Bogor-bound flight (Garuda?). : And Bogor itself. Is there economical place to stay for 1 or 2 nights? All : I ask for is relative cleanliness and good security. A hot water shower : would be cool.solar water heater systems  Though based on my RP travels, somewhat affluent people in : SE Asia are wuite willing to spend ridiculous sums for highly-taxed VCR’s, : etc, but the thought never occurs to them to install a solar water heater. The universities are in Bogor and there are several hotels in Bogor that are a much better deal than Jakarta, should be able to get decent place for $70 or less even. Ask the folks that you are going to see for a recommendation of a nice guest house or similar. solar water heater systems

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I might need to go to the Agriculture Faculty there. I haven’t sniffed around yet, I don’t know which airlines rrive at the International airport at which times (coming from the USA).solar water heater systems  I have the impression that Jakarta is not the calmest or cheapest place in the world to spend an overnight. So I’d dearly love to go directly to a Bogor-bound flight (Garuda?). And Bogor itself. Is there economical place to stay for 1 or 2 nights? All I ask for is relative cleanliness and good security.solar water heater systems  A hot water shower would be cool. Though based on my RP travels, somewhat affluent people in SE Asia are wuite willing to spend ridiculous sums for highly-taxed VCR’s, etc, but the thought never occurs to them to install a solar water heater. solar water heater systems

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Question:

Let’s compare prices here.
solar water heater pipe.  REI Polartec 300 Jacket    $70  Patagonia’s 300 Jacket      $150  The North Face 300wt Jacket  $180   Why are the other companies charging so much? Because they can!
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Perhaps the question should be, why is REI charging so little? What details have been left out, where have they skimped? For the casual user, this doesn’t make any difference and the $70 jacket is just fine. For the serious user, the details make a big difference and are important. Patagonia doesn’t make a 300 wt Polartec jacket at all. The TNF Denali ($160) has a lot of bells and whistles that the REI lacks and the Polar Sun ($175) is a different fabric that is much warmer. Of course, NoHorses Mike is too dumb to figure that out.
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Perhaps the question should be, why is REI charging so little? What details have been left out, where have they skimped? For the casual user, this doesn’t make any difference and the $70 jacket is just fine.
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I’d say that for almost everyone there is no need to buy a 300 weight  Polartec jacket in the first place. No matter which one you buy, you’re most  likely to wear a shell jacket over it in really bad weather. They all give you  comparable warmth, Why? Because they are made from the same fabric! If you can  sit there and tell me that North Face makes their 300wt jacket from a BETTER  fabric, you’re a liar! They get their stuff from the same machines, from the  same stock as REI does. The reason they charge more has to do with their  multi-page advertising, and that 2″ by 2″ logo on the chest..   What details have been left out, where have they skimped?
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It does not have the heavy nylon reinforcements that the TNFDenali jacket  has. But REI does make a version that has the same features as the Denali  jacket does. It still only costs around $100..   The TNF Denali ($160) has a lot of bells and whistles that the REI lacks and the Polar Sun ($175) is a different fabric that is much warmer. Of course, NoHorses Mike is too dumb to figure that out.

Wow, you’re so eloquent with your wording. When did I ever even mention the  Polar Sun Jacket? I know it’s a different fabric. I was merely comparing  jackets made from Polartec 300 fabric. Perhaps you, Mr. Soles, were too dumb  to figure that one out?    Either way, please define a “serious user”. Is this someone who goes to the  Himalaya, and climbs an 8,000 meter peak? Because this hardly has anything to  do with backpacking.   Anyway, I have a North Face windstopper fleece jacket( retails for $190). I  got a good deal on it( $60). But I have only worn the thing once. It’s just so  damned uncomfortable to wear. I’d rather wear my long underwear( heavy and  lightweight), and wear my wind/rain anorak over that..
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I have expensive and cheap versions of a lot of stuff.  I find that I use the cheap stuff more often – it is usually lighter and more comfortable. For example: I have a TNF Blue Kazoo and a cheapo Campmor down bag (about half the cost of the TNF bag and the same weight).  Unless it will likely be below 40 F I always take the Campmor bag beacause it is so much roomier and I actually get a decent nights sleep.  Also, I don’t care so much if I trash it, so it’s easier to deal with in that respect.  If it will likely be below 20 F I bring both bags, so the TNF bag I use only in the 20-40 F range. I have a Marmot Bi-polar fleece jacket (listed at 200 weight) and a cheap REI 200 polar fleece anorak.  I almost always take the REI jacket instead of the Marmot because the REI jacket packs to less than half the size of the Marmot jacket, weighs less, and has better waist coverage (it’s an anorak).  They “seem” nearly the same in terms of warmth, although I wish I could measure that accurately.  The REI jacket seems just a bit ’softer’, too. I have a Mountain Hardwear Ethereal jacket, 3-ply (~$360, I think) and a FirstLead gortex jacket, two-ply (~$150).  In the summer I always take the FirstLead.  In fact, I always take it, unless I’m expecting extreme weather.  The FirstLead packs much smaller (about half the size of the Mountain Hardwear jacket, even though the First- Lead is a 2-ply), the FirstLead is significantly more comfortable, and makes less noise when I walk.  The FirstLead is all around better fitting, so for most sports activities – jogging, biking, etc – I’ll grab the FirstLead.  The major drawback: it’s not seam sealed, so it’s not good in extended cold weather rains.
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solar water heater pipeLet’s compare prices here..  REI Polartec 300 Jacket    $70  Patagonia’s 300 Jacket      $150  The North Face 300wt Jacket  $180   Why are the other companies charging so much? Because they can! Perhaps the question should be, why is REI charging so little? What details have been left out, where have they skimped? For the casual user, this doesn’t make any difference and the $70 jacket is just fine. For the serious user, the details make a big difference and are important. Patagonia doesn’t make a 300 wt Polartec jacket at all. The TNF Denali ($160) has a lot of bells and whistles that the REI lacks and the Polar Sun ($175) is a different fabric that is much warmer. Of course, NoHorses Mike is too dumb to figure that out.
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Or, if you actually want utility rather than a fashion statement, you might get a good oiled wool sweater instead. adl
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solar water heater pipe if travelling around the World and you get a fault with your  equipment, if using a major brand, you can usually get something done about  it. Berghaus, TNF and Patagonia have all been very obliging to me in these  circumstances.  But what would I do with an REI, LL Bean or similar product ? Michael Fox Elements Adventure Photography USA, Europe & South Africa
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:    I’d say that for almost everyone there is no need to buy a 300 weight :  Polartec jacket in the first place. That call depends entirely on personal physiology and local conditions. I actually find Polartec 300 to be too light and have since moved up to a warmer pile. But then, I’m pretty lean, I sleep cold and NewEngland is a damp, chilly place. :  Why? Because they are made from the same fabric! If you can :  sit there and tell me that North Face makes their 300wt jacket from a BETTER :  fabric, you’re a liar! They get their stuff from the same machines, from the :  same stock as REI does. Mike, you are sounding silly. This is akin to saying all coffee is the same and for that, you are condemed to drinking instant coffee for 2 months. Seriously, here’s a little tale. Several years ago my wife bought me 300 jacket from LLBean. The fleece was thick and puffy but the coat was the wrong size. So, we ordered the right size and when the jacket arrived we noticed that the fleece was nowhere near as thick; especially when you looked at the inner nap. You could easily see the inner face fabric thru the nap. We had to order 2 more jackets from Bean and even had a service rep go down to the stock room to hand select a thicker fleece for us. Finally we ended up with one that was as thick as the first one. And yes, they were ALL Polartec 300. About the same time, a friend bought his wife a Patagonia Synchilla Jacket. Again, this stuff is Polartec 300 but there was no comparison between my “thick” jacket and her’s. Her’s was much beefier. Again, the diff was most noticable on the inner nap. Her’s was just as thickly napped on the inside as on the outside and overall it was thicker to boot. Malden Mills pumps out lots of fleece of different weights. It’s pretty instructive to walk through their outlet store where you can buy excess yardage for real cheap. (I make alot of my fleece stuff myself these days). You can go the stacks of 300, 200, 100, 200 Bicomponent and so on and yes, you see noticable differences in the fabrics. Some companies (like REI and LLBean) settle for Folger’s Crystals and some companies (like Patagonia) demand nothing less than a nice, freshly ground French Roast. Dave Mann           | “It is impossible, or not easy, to do                     |  noble acts without the proper equipment.”

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: Patagonia doesn’t make a 300 wt Polartec jacket at all. Really? Did they switch sources away from Malden when they moved to recycled fleece for their Synchilla? The Synchilla Snap-T and Men’s and Women’s Synchilla Jackets are all still in the line. Other than the switch to recycled polyester and minor styling updates, those pieces have been in the line for a long time and my understanding is that Synchilla *was* Polartec 300. In fact, didn’t Patagonia have an exclusive on it for the first season or so? Dave Mann           | “It is impossible, or not easy, to do                     |  noble acts without the proper equipment.”

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Really? Did they switch sources away from Malden when they moved to recycled fleece for their Synchilla? The Synchilla Snap-T and Men’s and Women’s Synchilla Jackets are all still in the line. Other than the switch to recycled polyester and minor styling updates, those pieces have been in the line for a long time and my understanding is that Synchilla *was* Polartec 300. In fact, didn’t Patagonia have an exclusive on it for the first season or so?

There’s more than one weight of Synchilla available.  The Snap-Ts are certainly nearer 200 than 300, or my blood’s getting thinner. Malden may well still be the source even if Synchilla  isn’t re-badged Polartec: they make Lowe’s Aleutian fleeces for them, but they’re not generally available to other manufacturers.  Personally, I think Ultrafleece is better than anything out of Malden, but that’s another story… Pete. — Peter Clinch                    Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 3637    Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177              Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK

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:    True, but the stuff has the worst cut of any Polartec. I try that stuff : on, the TNF’s version, then REI’s.. Guess which one fits better? REI. There : is no doubt in my mind that the Patagonia and North Face Jackets are a : little better in quality than REI . BUT IS IT WORTH PAYING THAT MUCH MORE? Fit is always a personal call on all equipment that you wear. Quality generally runs second place (up to but not including safety concerns). On value, ike I mentioned before. Diminishing returns. Btw, imo Patagonia and Marmot clothing are both a solid step up from TNF clothing. (But then again, TNF makes better bags than Patagonia and better packs than Marmot, right?) :   Why are the other companies charging so much? Heh, heh… this is related to, “Why did Moonstone and Mont*bell go under”. It is also related to why Lexus, Mercedes, Infiinity and now Lincoln all offer luxury SUV — an oxymoron added to an oxymoron. Price it high and they will come. Quality is defined by price is teh marketing strategy. :    For the majority of backpackers’ needs, value is more important than : absolute quality. A $200 bag that will last 3/4 the time as a $400 bag is : better, simply because in the long run it will be a far better value. Like fit, this is a personal call. Some would say your RockWren is an extravagent luxury. But then, the entire sport is. You might enjoy Richard Foster’s book, “The Freedom of Simplicity”. :    FWIW, Wiggy’s has a full lifetime garuntee, for the entire bag, : including the fill. It’s made to last for generations, not just a few decades.. So does TNF. Dave Mann           | “It is impossible, or not easy, to do                     |  noble acts without the proper equipment.”

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Folks, I think we have a new record for the biggest line of bullsh*t  in rec.backcountry.. Read, then read my comments. There is a good chance of that but that in no way means they are the same. Different fabrics (which may *look* the same), different patterns (the better the cut, the harder to sew and more waste), different levels of quality control. The REI is probably a decent value and will work fine for most people but the TNF is likely to be a better value in the long run.

OK, I’ve read it… now, where’s the bullshit?  Perhaps add the rider to the last sentence that it principally applies to people who push gear a lot in relatively heavy usage, but other than that, what’s the problem?    REI and North Face are both made in overseas.

Irrelevant. My pack was made overseas (Republic of Ireland).  My tent was made at home (UK).  My Thermarest was made overseas (US).  They are all excellent quality.  I can point you at items made in any of those places that stink very badly. Perhaps even in the same factory.

Irrelevant.   My top-of-the-line pit was made in the same factory as much cheaper, lower spec bags.  Same building (and only “perhaps” the same building) does not imply the same input to QA on each line built there. REI’s  quality control is on par, if not better, with The North Face’s.

Without fairly intimate knowledge of the construction specifications, which you don’t give any evidence you have besides the above unsupported conjecture, there really isn’t any way to know. And their return policy simply cannot be beaten, say, if you decided a few months down the road that you did not like the pack, you can return it for a full refund or an exchanged.

I won’t argue with that, but it doesn’t mean that a cheaper REI product will outperform a more expensive Other Brand, does it?  You don’t make a (generally very acceptable) Taurus into a Porsche 928 just by being able to take it back.    Anyway, REI’s GoreTex stuff will last just as long as TNF’s, especially long if you take care of it. REI’s Elements fabric is pretty good as well.. Check it out.

This is entirely dependant on the base fabrics used (different) and the cut and stitching (different).  It’s *possible* it’ll last as well, but what real evidence have you got beyond a known dislike for TNF? My vested interests?  No REI gear, No TNF gear, know happy users of both. Pete. — Peter Clinch                    Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 3637    Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177              Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK

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Hello I am trying to decide about which jacket to get. The REI knock-off of the North Face “Mountain Light” jacket is much less expensive. (nearly half as much.) But is the quality comparable? I’m thinking maybe they are both made in the same (or similar) overseas mill, but what do I know? Does anybody have any sugestions or comments? Also, is there a resource, available mail order, for these jackets, etc., that is less expensive than REI? please advise. Thanks! Mrs. Josef K.

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If you’re referring to the REI Switchback, I got one last year and it, combined with a Polartec 300 fleece, held up well for a winter of hiking and snowshoeing in VT and NH and walking to work in Boston.  My only qualm about it is that the hood tends to puff out like a mushroom on me (although a friend who has this jacket doesn’t have this problem.) -slide – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello I am trying to decide about which jacket to get. The REI knock-off of the North Face “Mountain Light” jacket is much less expensive. (nearly half as much.) But is the quality comparable? I’m thinking maybe they are both made in the same (or similar) overseas mill, but what do I know? Does anybody have any sugestions or comments? Also, is there a resource, available mail order, for these jackets, etc., that is less expensive than REI? please advise. Thanks! Mrs. Josef K.

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Knowing REI’s Customer Service policy, I think they are quite a safe bet.   Frankly, I own a TNF Mountain Parka (Ski Patrol uniform) and am not really overwhelmed by it.  For the money (even at the alledged Ski Patrol “Discount” pricing, there are better values to be had. I would recommend you look into Sierra Trading Post.  They are primarily a clearance operation, but, if you are patient, you can find some excellent values.  I don’t have their number in front of me, but I seem to remember that they’re in Reno, NV. Hope this helps nb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello I am trying to decide about which jacket to get. The REI knock-off of the North Face “Mountain Light” jacket is much less expensive. (nearly half as much.) But is the quality comparable? I’m thinking maybe they are both made in the same (or similar) overseas mill, but what do I know? Does anybody have any sugestions or comments? Also, is there a resource, available mail order, for these jackets, etc., that is less expensive than REI? please advise. Thanks! Mrs. Josef K.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello I am trying to decide about which jacket to get. The REI knock-off of the North Face “Mountain Light” jacket is much less expensive. (nearly half as much.) But is the quality comparable? I’m thinking maybe they are both made in the same (or similar) overseas mill, but what do I know? Does anybody have any sugestions or comments? Also, is there a resource, available mail order, for these jackets, etc., that is less expensive than REI? please advise. Thanks! Mrs. Josef K.

I bought my wife the mountain parka from L.L.Bean after a few recomendations. She loves it. It was about 200$ if that’s any better then your other choices. Might be worth checking it out. Bob

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Hello I am trying to decide about which jacket to get. The REI knock-off of the North Face “Mountain Light” jacket is much less expensive. (nearly half as much.) But is the quality comparable? I’m thinking maybe they are both made in the same (or similar) overseas mill, but what do I know?

There is a good chance of that but that in no way means they are the same. Different fabrics (which may *look* the same), different patterns (the better the cut, the harder to sew and more waste), different levels of quality control. The REI is probably a decent value and will work fine for most people but the TNF is likely to be a better value in the long run.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello I am trying to decide about which jacket to get. The REI knock-off of the North Face “Mountain Light” jacket is much less expensive. (nearly half as much.) But is the quality comparable? I’m thinking maybe they are both made in the same (or similar) overseas mill, but what do I know? Does anybody have any sugestions or comments? Also, is there a resource, available mail order, for these jackets, etc., that is less expensive than REI? please advise. Thanks! Mrs. Josef K.

If you can wait, you may be able to get a good deal in mid-late Spring when the shops are having clearance sales.  I picked up a Marmot mountaineering jacket/shell for half price.  And I did so at a ski-shop that caters to the high-end clientele (I don’t ski at all).  They had lots of good clothing for sale since they were clearing out stock for the summer.  Everyone had already picked clean the local REI and other outdoors shops.  It was sheer genius on my part (i.e. luck) to check out this ski shop and find all this great, high quality, cold-weather gear for sale. Scott Surgent

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True, but the stuff has the worst cut of any Polartec. I try that stuff on, the TNF’s version, then REI’s.. Guess which one fits better? REI. There is no doubt in my mind that the Patagonia and North Face Jackets are a little better in quality than REI . BUT IS IT WORTH PAYING THAT MUCH MORE?

If everyone was the same shape then that would be a useful point, but people aren’t all the same shape, so it’s probably the case that there are plenty of folk out there who prefer other products to the REI.  As in all these things, you should try them on, rather than just looking at the tags.      Let’s compare prices here..  REI Polartec 300 Jacket    $70  Patagonia’s 300 Jacket      $150  The North Face 300wt Jacket  $180   Why are the other companies charging so much?

Because they can!  All of the above companies exist because they are viable businesses.  Nobody is *forcing* people to buy Pattis and TNF fleeces.  It’s voluntary, and there are other reasons than price/performance.  Case in point: I bought a fleece for my girlfriend at the weekend I would never buy for myself (Lowe Attu: too hot, too heavy, too bulky, too expensive, too short, not enough pockets, no pit zips, not windproof enough), and I chose it because I think she’ll like it (colour, style, feel, super-toastiness) more than the alternatives for what she wants to do. Pete. — Peter Clinch                    Dundee University & Teaching Hospitals Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 3637    Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177              Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK

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Personally, I’ve bought almost all my stuff at REI. It’s nice having the dividend back at the end of the year & the warranty is outstanding.         Having said that, I certainly would not mind owning TNF products but generally cannot afford it. There is one alternative that no-one seems to have mentioned:         TNF has 2 outlet stores in the San Francisco Bay Area. One is in downtown San Francisco & the other store is somewhere in Berkeley (sp?). I’ve only been to the SF store once and from what I saw, it was pretty good.         The amount of the discount seemed to vary depending on the item. Their Ski-wear products were more discounted than their climbing & technical outerwear but I did see a good deal on a Mountain-24 tent ($300- I believe).. Anyways- you might want to check it out: San Francisco:  180 Post St. (415) 433-3223 Steve

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depends on what you want to do with the jacket. If you are looking to walk the dog and take a few trips a year or be outdoorsy fashionable – REI or Campmor is fine.  If you looking for something to climb in 3x per month and have in your pack and use more than it would hang on the hangar, then maybe you should go for more expensive garments such as TNF, Marmot or Lowe.

I wore the REI jacket on many trips last year in the White and Green Mountians and Berkshires where the conditions varied from 0F with 60 mph winds to 32F with freezing rain.  It held up fine under all conditions. Besides, everyone knows that if all you want outdoorsy fashionable, you shell out the extra bucks and go with TNF. -slide

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Dear Mrs Krose – Price should not be your only consideration here.  It depends on what you want to do with the jacket. If you are looking to walk the dog and take a few trips a year or be outdoorsy fashionable – REI or Campmor is fine.  If you looking for something to climb in 3x per month and have in your pack and use more than it would hang on the hangar, then maybe you should go for more expensive garments such as TNF, Marmot or Lowe.   Things to look at and consider: 1. The Hand  - How does the outer shell material feel. Cheaper materials are usually lighter and have thinner nylon threads.  Additionally the weave may not be as tight as more expensive materials. 2. DWR –    One way to cut costs is on the durable water Repellancy (DWR) coating on the outside of the jacket which causes water to bead up and roll off, instead of saturating the nylon – While they will all wear off at some point, less expensive coatings wear off quicker and I have not found a retail application that can restore to a brand new finish. 3.  Zippers – Look for heavy duty self repairing zippers with large zipper pulls you can easily us ewith gloves or mitts.checxk the inside stitching – Are all stitches finished – does it unzip both ways – Pull across the zipper – Does it feel secure?. 4.  Bar Tacks – At stress points where ends of material edges are joined or where bells and whisltes are added, you may find bar tacks check these out carefully  - is it just a bunch of thead wound up, or is it secure with the ends finished off. 5.  Stitching – pull on seams – Are they tight, are they taped and are the edges finished if no to any of these, put the jacket back and save your money. 6.  Hood – Is it going to be bothersom – Try it on and walk around for 10 minutes with the hood on – Can you adjust it to see well or does it creat a frustrating havoc when you look around or up. 7.  Pockets – Will they be inaccessable with a pack on  - Can you carry what you need to, are they waterproof and sealed and is the stitching all finished – this is another way to cut costs. 8.  warranty – self explanatory 9.  closures – is this hard wearing velcro or a cheaper alternative that does not stick well.  Stay away from to many snaps – They can ice up and be useless in winter. 10.  drawcords – do they bring the jacket in close to keep the elements out – Is there a snow guard or closure built into the waist of the jacket? Hope this helps you some Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello I am trying to decide about which jacket to get. The REI knock-off of the North Face “Mountain Light” jacket is much less expensive. (nearly half as much.) But is the quality comparable? I’m thinking maybe they are both made in the same (or similar) overseas mill, but what do I know? Does anybody have any sugestions or comments? Also, is there a resource, available mail order, for these jackets, etc., that is less expensive than REI? please advise. Thanks! Mrs. Josef K.

– ***NOTICE*** try not to impress me with big words, when dimunitive words will suffice.  Rick Story

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Folks, I think we have a new record for the biggest line of bullsh*t  in rec.backcountry.. Read, then read my comments.

Fine, be a dumbass. Doesn’t bother me if you care to flaunt your ignorance.

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Patagonia’s Synchilla and stock Polartec 300 both come of the same factory — Malden Mills, just up the street from here. Next time you are at REI, pick up the stuff and compare it. Especially look at the thickkness of the inner nap on the stock Polartec.

True, but the stuff has the worst cut of any Polartec. I try that stuff on, the TNF’s version, then REI’s.. Guess which one fits better? REI. There is no doubt in my mind that the Patagonia and North Face Jackets are a little better in quality than REI . BUT IS IT WORTH PAYING THAT MUCH MORE? In many cases, you will see that the Synchilla is thicker and fluufier.

Let’s compare prices here..  REI Polartec 300 Jacket    $70  Patagonia’s 300 Jacket      $150  The North Face 300wt Jacket  $180   Why are the other companies charging so much? As far as REI’s stuff beign as good as TNF’s… not hardly. Especially not their bags, tents and packs. Not even close.

I own 2 sleeping bags, both are down. The REI Downtime -20 and the Feathered Friends Rock Wren. Using your above statement as a model, here is my recollection of sleeping bag quality..    1. Feathered Friends    2. Western Mountaineering    3. Wiggy’s    4. Sierra Designs    5. Marmot    6. The North Face    7. Mountain Hardwear    8. REI   Those are just the ones that are available around here, and it’s only my opinion.. This is not to say REI stuff is not a good value it is. But value is different from quality.

For the majority of backpackers’ needs, value is more important than absolute quality. A $200 bag that will last 3/4 the time as a $400 bag is better, simply because in the long run it will be a far better value.    FWIW, Wiggy’s has a full lifetime garuntee, for the entire bag, including the fill. It’s made to last for generations, not just a few decades.. Mike                             The one and not so only…….                           http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/6736

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:    REI and North Face are both made in overseas.

<snip This is not to say REI stuff is not a good value it is. But value is different from quality.

I just now got back from the REI store here in Dallas, and they carry the same brands of nearly everything as nearly everybody else in town, only their prices are nearly double. Last week I bought a tent at Oshman’s for $143; REI had one that looked just like it for $299, apparently the same quality. A solar water-heater shower bag that sold at Oshman’s for $11.99 was $32.00 at REI. Same brand.         I almost couldn’t even get there from here; I called REI and asked the guy who answered the phone, “Which exit do I take off 635 to get to your store if I’m traveling west?”         He asked, “West from where?”         I said, “West from anywhere. Which exit do I take if I’m going West?”         He said, “If you’re west of here already, then you’re going east.”         I said, “Look, Dumbass, What exit do I take going west on 635?”         He said, “West from where?”         I shouted, “You stupid son of a bitch, I’m going west on 635 from Garland.”         He said, “Why didn’t you say so? Take the Welsh Road exit.” Cordially, –Dave

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:    REI and North Face are both made in overseas. Perhaps even in the same : factory. REI’s  quality control is on par, if not better, with The North : Face’s. And their return policy simply cannot be beaten, say, if you : decided a few months down the road that you did not like the pack, you can : return it for a full refund or an exchanged. Patagonia’s Synchilla and stock Polartec 300 both come of the same factory — Malden Mills, just up the street from here. Next time you are at REI, pick up the stuff and compare it. Especially look at the thickkness of the inner nap on the stock Polartec. In many cases, you will see that the Synchilla is thicker and fluufier. As far as REI’s stuff beign as good as TNF’s… not hardly. Especially not their bags, tents and packs. Not even close. This is not to say REI stuff is not a good value it is. But value is different from quality. Dave Mann           | “It is impossible, or not easy, to do                     |  noble acts without the proper equipment.”

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Folks, I think we have a new record for the biggest line of bullsh*t  in rec.backcountry.. Read, then read my comments. There is a good chance of that but that in no way means they are the same. Different fabrics (which may *look* the same), different patterns (the better the cut, the harder to sew and more waste), different levels of quality control. The REI is probably a decent value and will work fine for most people but the TNF is likely to be a better value in the long run.

REI and North Face are both made in overseas. Perhaps even in the same factory. REI’s  quality control is on par, if not better, with The North Face’s. And their return policy simply cannot be beaten, say, if you decided a few months down the road that you did not like the pack, you can return it for a full refund or an exchanged.    Anyway, REI’s GoreTex stuff will last just as long as TNF’s, especially long if you take care of it. REI’s Elements fabric is pretty good as well.. Check it out. Mike                             The one and not so only…….                           http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/6736

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Question:

Now, rather than be Mr Gloom-and-Despondency as I appear to have been, here’s a suggestion, although it’s still centrally produce and requires a grid for distribution – wave power. Remember the ‘nodding duck’ experiment that was killed off by the combined power of the oil, gas, coal and nuclear lobbiests a few years back? Just the thing to take to alt.conspiracy!!solar water heater panel. Take a look at where these places are on a map and you’ll get some idea of the logistical problems you’d have servicing them from locally produced electricity. If you want an extreme example, I’d give you Stornaway or Lerwick on the Shetlands. 2)If it wasn’t for Beeching (for anybody who doesn’t know Beeching singlehandedly destroyed a highly comprehensive UK rail network in the 1960’s), we wouldn’t have to use large fleets of trucks to ship coal around.

I’d certainly agree that moving goods like coal by rail is better. 3) Many UK towns and cities are very near coal fields, so transportation would be over short distances. But you could always use gas! Just don’t tell the miners .

Many English towns – well those in Yorkshire and Nottingham, yes. But how about Warrington..or Truro? 4) Salter’s duck I know all about it! Government scientists altering the figures and so on.

Sadly, fiddled to kill of a promising experiment. 5) Yes the payback to the individual consumer for advanced conservation systems as per the Swedes can be considerable, but if government can provide a subsidy it would be more worthwhile.solar water heater panel.  If semiconductors keep getting smaller, transistors will eventually get smaller than atoms!  If we keep making cars smaller, they’ll eventually disappear! This is not to say that one can’t make reasonable critiques of various Greenpeace positions. Bruce Nordman

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# Why is it that we have to “tax” functioning, efficient sources of # energy and “subsidize” pipe-dream technologies such as wind and solar # power? Greenpeace decrys the subsidy of the fossil fuel industry # indicating that this artificially supports its use and then advocates a # tax on it instead. Could there be some weighted agenda here? How about # letting market forces prevail? Firstly many of the fossil fuel based energy sources are or were subsidised. Secondly, wind power and biomass can both be competitive, solar is competitive for off-grid applications and remote areas, and is projected to become competitive for normal use at the turn of the century. Finally as someone has already pointed out, market forces don’t take into account the environmental impacts. # Conservation and efficiency are not “forms of energy”. They are euphemisms # for “do without”. Taking conservation to a natural limit would be the # use of no energy. Is this the goal of groups such as Greenpeace? This # sounds like a thinly veiled advocacy of the elimination of technology. Not if you’re reading literature from Amory Lovins, the World Resources Institute, Worldwatch Institute, Greenpeace, the Green parties in Europe, Friends of the Earth etc… Much of this literature advocates the use of highly energy efficient technology to cut our energy use by as much 75%(Lovins estimate) and certainly 30%(EPRI estimates 24-44% on top of 9% already planned by American utilities) without affecting living standards(or if you build energy efficient housing, increasing living standards), and without changing lifestyles. If you want further info, I can email you my essay on energy efficiency. # Small stations sighted locally with proper pollution safeguards can # provide relatively clean electricity (compared with trad stations) and # cheap space and water heating, which is the major consumers of energy. # # There are schools of thought that just the opposite is true. It is # easier to marshall the resources to clean up one large plant than to # apply the necessary technologies to dozens or hundreds of smaller # plants. And, of course, there are the economies of scale. # # And you cut down on transmission loses. # # Which are negligible on properly designed, ultra-high voltage systems. Someone already posted the 8-10% normal transimission losses. Also in the eastern bloc countries losses can be as high as 30%. In the developing world distributed systems can cut the costs of building up a reliable energy system significantly, and solar power is more competitive there than building huge power stations and elaborate but costly grids.solar water heater panel

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“President Clinton is attempting to face the twin crises of economy and environment for the first time in years with his proposed energy tax,” said Greenpeace’s Steve Kretzmann.  ”If enacted, the tax could begin to chart a new and positive energy course for this country that finally factors in environmental protection.”

Did Mr. Kretzman actually watch the speach ? President Clinton said that the energy BTU tax was the *best* way we could reduce the deficit. The government appears to want the “citizens” to use as much energy as possible so that the revenues generated will be applied to the deficit. How else will this tax reduce the deficit?  Why do we currently have a energy inefficient automobile trans- portation system? Could it be the perks and tax revenue that the government subsidized auto industry generates ? Let the free market (lower prices) drive a new transportation industry into naturally energy efficient and cost efficient modes of transpor- tation. Stop the current closed market government subsidized automobile transportation monopoly !  Give control of the roads to the Free Market !solar water heater panel

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[...Drax] coal. This simple switch from high sulphur to low sulphur coal has cut pollution markedly without any additional flue gas control. Actually (although I confess I can’t remember where I saw the reference) there is little difference in the sulphur content of UK coal vs Columbian coal.

The trouble is that the main imported cheap coal which is causing all the fuss is Australian open cast mined coal and ex Eastern Block (mainly Polish) coal both of which are cheaper than British coal and have a much lower sulphur content. [...] Out of curiosity, what sort of fuel (or technology) do you propose for your local schemes? Both wind and solar are out for the UK, wind is out unless you live on the Orkney islands and in any case is so inefficient that it would require a whole vast array of ugly wind turbines scarring the scenery to power even a small village, irrespective of whether it’s fitted with Dekker aerofoils or vertical rotors or just plain variable pitch props, solar is our due to the climate, apart from maybe a month or so in the summer in the south of England (which is when you *least* need energy). The UK has the best wind resources in Europe (and some of the best in the world),solar water heater panel

Denmark has that honour. For effective wind power you need a reliable continuous wind. While Britain has some pretty healthy gales, it isn’t reliable enough to guarantee continuous power. Only Orkney in the far north has that and that’s why the only useable wind turbine was built there. The only other area which has any sort of wind power is East Anglia in England but the winds there are really only capable of driving wind pumps for drainage, not nearly enough to generate electricity in useable quantities. Part of the problem is that you need a reasonably flat terrain around, hills and mountains generate turbulance which causes the steering to swing wildly as the sails try to steer into an ever changing wind direction. That in itself eliminates whole portions of England, Wales and most of Scotland apart from some outer Isles like Tiree, Orkney and Shetland. In addition you have to find some way of harnessing excess wind to try and level out the peaks and troughs between days with gales blowing and days with a dead calm. Spilling the wind either through sail shutters or feathering the prop is just a waste of energy that could be used. Pump storage doesn’t offer a solution as you require a hill to pump the water up and hills and windmills don’t mix too well. Oh, and in case you ask, I did a research project many years ago on windmills, mainly historical, but I also looked at technology developments in recent times. I too thought they’d be a good way of generating pollution free, cheap energy. However, when you look at the costs, including the inevitable landscape ’scarring’ that would occur to drive even a small village, and the efficiencies involved, they really are pretty poor generators.solar water heater panel The swedes uses passive solar heating sytems even in the middle of winter. So we can, if we designed our buildings properly, or installed effective insulation in them.

Yes indeed they do. They also triple glaze their houses, heavily insulate cavity walls. Solar heating works to small extent but the Swedes use it for preheating the hot water supply before it’s fed to the main heater. It’s a small gain – takes the chill off the incoming water – but its expensive to impliment.solar water heater panel  The energy saving is small and takes a *long* time to pay back the cost of installation. Heat pumps might be a better bet but their your talking big money for an installation. Heat recovery from waste water is another possibility, a heat exchanger in the bath drain pipe in simple terms, but that’s *very* expensive too. A cellar helps reduce loss through the floor. An experimental house down in Milton Keynes in England was built using all these technologies and it was indeed very energy efficient and cheap to run. Unfortunately it also cost an absolute fortune to build and it’s doubtful if the extra building costs would ever be recovered in the expected lifetime of the house. All the above heat recovery systems still need an electrical supply to work and your back to the problem of generating it again. The fuel used for a local system could be coal or gas, or oil. However the beuaty of a CHP system is that once you have it up and running anyone can feed heat into the system.

..and you have associated difficulties with fuel supply and pollution control. For example, a small coal fired station in Fort WIlliam in Scotland would require coal to be trucked in. Exhaust pollution from trucks. Oil or gas, beside being a non-renewable source, would have to be piped in. Very expensive requiring again, a grid system of some sort. LPG is a non-starter as again it’s non-renewable and it’s incredibly expensive. Wood and peat are out for obvious environmental reasons. Irrespective of how efficient a power station is, you still have to supply it with its basic commodity,solar water heater panel  the fuel it uses and if that fuel is not available on its doorstep, as in virtually all communities, it still requires a ‘grid’ system of some sort for the supply of the fuel, be it a gas pipeline grid, a rail network ‘grid’, a road network ‘grid’ or indeed an electricity ‘grid’. They’re all ‘grids’ of one form or another and each have their own downside. There are *lots* of remote sizeable communities scattered around Britain, just like Fort William. WHich would you rather see, pylons straddling hills carrying centrally produced electricity or a massive road network jammed with coal trucks pouring out pollution trying to service every remote but efficient power station in every small town in Britain? I know what I would prefer!! You see, that’s the reality of the situation here in Britain. You could burn rubbish I suppose, but with all the plastics etc around, you need *very* tight pollution controls, particularly if you want to stop toxic gases getting out, and a small community is unlikely to generate enough rubbish to keep its own station working. As a supplement? Maybe but you still need to get the main fuel in *and* control the pollution with a suitable flue gas cleaner that’s adaptable for both the toxic gases *and* whatever main fuel your burning. solar water heater panel

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Drax is a one off coal fired station burning high sulphur coal.solar water heater panel  As you are well aware, there has been a lot of fuss in the UK over importing and burning low sulphur coal by generators rather than using the UK mined high sulphur coal. This simple switch from high sulphur to low sulphur coal has cut pollution markedly without any additional flue gas control.

Actually (although I confess I can’t remember where I saw the reference) there is little difference in the sulphur content of UK coal vs Columbian coal. Fluidised bed coal burning and its various spin offs will cut this even further. particularly if the flue gas recirculation technology gets off the ground and the UK government adopts a longer view than the current quick temporary fix called ‘dash for gas’. These gas stations will be lying idle in 25 years time. [For our US readers, gas as in natural gas, rather than petrol (gas) you put in your car] Fluidised bed technology pushes the burning efficiency of coal close to that of gas, while decreasing SO2 emmisions. The Swedish government – one of the most ‘green’ concious governments in Europe, if not the world, have already installed a fluidised bed coal burning station in the centre of Stockholm,solar water heater panel  not the sort of place you’d normall put a power station, and appear to be quite happy with it. Why hasn’t Britain used what is essentially a British invention and indeed closed the coal research station in England where these and other improvements on existing technologies were designed?

I fully agree. The British government has made a proverial pigs ear out of its energy policy. Incidently in New Scientist recently, it said that the American had recently tested successfully a fluid bed combined cycle system for coal, with effciceincies over 40% (I think). We don’t run ultra high voltage systems in the UK so our losses are greater. and in any case most of those loses are due to connection losses rather than straight I^2*R loses in the cables themselves. Even with a local station, you’ll have similar connections to make with the accompanying loses. At lower voltages, the losses are even worse,solar water heater panel  and don’t forget to include the loss incurred where you plug your socket into the wall, that’s classed as a transmission loss too.

You know more about this than I do. I merely quoted the figure to show how high losses are. Out of curiosity, what sort of fuel (or technology) do you propose for your local schemes? Both wind and solar are out for the UK, wind is out unless you live on the Orkney islands and in any case is so inefficient that it would require a whole vast array of ugly wind turbines scarring the scenery to power even a small village, irrespective of whether it’s fitted with Dekker aerofoils or vertical rotors or just plain variable pitch props, solar is our due to the climate, apart from maybe a month or so in the summer in the south of England (which is when you *least* need energy).

The UK has the best wind resources in Europe (and some of the best in the world), even inland. The swedes uses passive solar heating sytems even in the middle of winter. So we can, if we designed our buildings properly, or installed effective insulation in them. The fuel used for a local system could be coal or gas, or oil.solar water heater panel  However the beuaty of a CHP system is that once you have it up and running anyone can feed heat into the system. Right I have a meeting now I have to go Look forward to replies about this Chris

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John Higdon writes (in part): Conservation and efficiency are not “forms of energy”. They are euphemisms for “do without”.

Not necessarily.  The 486/33 on my desk at home uses a LOT less   energy than the PDP 11/35 I used to use back in my college days,   but which would you rather use?   My car, an ‘84 Rabbit, solar water heater panel. Name another form of “alternative energy” that can provide dependable baseload power. There are none. That’s why this tax is unfair. It goes after the utilities that service large cities. Fossil fuel stations have being getting a lot of stick lately (quite rightly), however with Combined Heat and Power system they can achieve efficiencies of over 70% (in terms of energy in vs useful energy out).

Unfortunately, fossil plants pollute the local areas as well. Another tradeoff. Small stations sighted locally with proper pollution safeguards can provide relatively clean electricity (compared with trad stations) and cheap space and water heating, which is the major consumers of energy. And you cut down on transmission loses.

But it’s often cheaper on O&M costs when you plant 2000-3000 MW(e) at a single site and ship the electricity everywhere. And nuclear power plants are usually placed away from large urvan areas. Tino — “Always keep a litter bag in your car. It doesn’t take up much room, and if it gets full, you can just throw it out the window.” – Steve Martin

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Clinton’s presidency has got to be an engineer’s dream! I mean, to have “the heat content of energy” uttered in a State of the Union speech? We haven’t had a President who lay awake nights reading steam tables since uh..solar water heater panel? How about letting market forces prevail? Conservation and efficiency are not “forms of energy”. They are euphemisms for “do without”. Taking conservation to a natural limit would be the use of no energy. Is this the goal of groups such as Greenpeace? This sounds like a thinly veiled advocacy of the elimination of technology. Small stations sighted locally with proper pollution safeguards can provide relatively clean electricity (compared with trad stations) and cheap space and water heating, which is the major consumers of energy.

There are schools of thought that just the opposite is true. It is easier to marshall the resources to clean up one large plant than to apply the necessary technologies to dozens or hundreds of smaller plants. And, of course, there are the economies of scale. And you cut down on transmission loses.

Which are negligible on properly designed, ultra-high voltage systems.solar water heater panel

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This would suggest to me that a tax on electrical heating systems combined with a subsidy to promotoe other froms would be the most desireable or socially more just system. Why is it that we have to “tax” functioning, efficient sources of energy and “subsidize” pipe-dream technologies such as wind and solar power?

Because the one that you choose to tax does more bad stuff that isn’t in the price of the energy. Greenpeace decrys the subsidy of the fossil fuel industry indicating that this artificially supports its use and then advocates a tax on it instead. Could there be some weighted agenda here?solar water heater panel How about letting market forces prevail?

Yes, their is a weighted agenda here.  There are ‘externalities’ in any system of commerce that the price of a product does not include. The goal is to ‘internalize the externalities’.  For example, my car exhaust makes my niece cough due to an asthma problem.  I don’t pay for that, my sister-in-law does via her health insurance.  To fully reflect my impact on her life, my car or gasoline should be taxed to subsidize her health care.  The ‘problem’ with this wonderland scenario is that it is damned hard (some say impossible) to properly quantify and allocate the externalities.  I personally believe that the political process can not under any circumstance keep a tax limited to covering the externalities of the taxed item.solar water heater panel  IMHO, no tax is a good tax. Conservation and efficiency are not “forms of energy”. They are euphemisms for “do without”.

Some folks quibble about the difference between ‘conservation’ and ‘energy efficiency’.  On a strict interpretation ‘conservation’ does, in deed, mean ‘do without’.  Most folks, however, use ‘conservation’ to include ‘energy efficiency’.  I replace an incandecent bulb with a compact fluorescent bulb.  It reduces my electric use from 100w to 20w. Have I ‘conserved’ or have I ‘energy efficiencied’?  Doesn’t matter. I cut use of electricity at NO reduction in service.  I have not ‘done without’.  To the extent that things such as CF bulbs are thought of as ‘conservation’ by the typical person, your statment is false.  I have not ‘done without’ anything, yet I have cut my electrical use in half by measures that are commonly called ‘conservation’ even if they don’t meet the strict definition.  The ‘bottom line’ is that there are many many MW-hrs to be saved by small changes in the products we consume with no change of life style or services used.solar water heater panel  The purchase of new refrigerators and CF bulbs substitutes very nicely for the purchase of new generating capacity.  It is, for all practical purposes, the same as a source of energy.  The 80w that is no longer consumed by me as waste is avalable to someone else as a new, to them, ’source’ of energy.  You can argue the semantics all day, but this fundamental reality remains. Taking conservation to a natural limit would be the use of no energy. solar water heater panel

An ‘absurdum ad reductum’ (sp?) argument.  One might just as well argue that an obese person should not reduce food intake from 8k Cal/day to 4k Cal/day since if they went to zero Cal/day they would starve… We can cut consumption for both the obese person and for the electric consumption of our homes and offices by 1/2 with no loss of any quality of life (and in many cases, an improvement). Is this the goal of groups such as Greenpeace?

Not that I know of, but I’m not a spokesman for Greenpeace. This sounds like a thinly veiled advocacy of the elimination of technology.

It isn’t.  It is an advocacy of common sense.  Payback periods on CF bulbs tend to be about 1 to 1.5 years WITHOUT REBATES.  With rebates, you get some outragious payback periods (few months).  Heck, I can get a CF bulb for $5 from Home Depot that has a rebate built into the price (no paperwork for me).  It replaces a 100w bulb, but uses about 20w.  IF you have a bulb on 10 hrs/day, that is 1kW-hr/day. IF it costs a dime a kW-hr, that is 10 cents/day.  New cost is 2 cents/day. Net is 8 cents/day ROI.  You will have ‘payback’ in about 2 months. (62 days).  It is quite possible (in a porch light left on all night, for example, as security lighting) to have a bulb installed just after you pay one bill, and hit payback just after paying the next. To NOT install the CF bulb is simply stupid.  To advocate it is simple common sense.  Unfortunately, the ’search costs’ for most folks to figure this out are not worth it to them, so it makes sense for someone like a Utility or Gov’t to do the research,solar water heater panel figure out what makes sense, and put out ‘the word’ in things like newsletters in the power bill so that the average couch potatoe doesn’t have to think about it, they can be eased into making a change of habits. Ditto the use of solar water and space heating.  It is incredibly economical to use solar for domestic water heating in the sunbelt. It isn’t done because even advocates, like myself, can find it hard to get motivated enough to sink $1000 into a solar water heater that won’t hit breakeven for 5 years.  So you put together a rebate system, or a tax break system, or a financing system, or just mandate it by law (such as was done for Calif. swimming pools) to coax the lard bottoms (like myself into doing something that is rather smart to do anyway.   — ‘Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has  genius, power and magic in it.’  -  Goethe I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed. solar water heater panel

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Small stations sighted locally with proper pollution safeguards can provide relatively clean electricity (compared with trad stations) and cheap space and water heating, which is the major consumers of energy. There are schools of thought that just the opposite is true. It is easier to marshall the resources to clean up one large plant than to apply the necessary technologies to dozens or hundreds of smaller plants. And, of course, there are the economies of scale. I’d agree with this though.

Okay, but to clean up the emissions from Drax power station is costing (apparently) over a billion pounds, because of the size of the clean up system needed! And its done nothing for the efficiency of the plant. By using combined heat and power which uses fuels more efficiently, you use less fuel and so save money that way. And you cut down on transmission loses. Which are negligible on properly designed, ultra-high voltage systems.

According to data from the 1992 Digest of Uk Energy Statistics, transmissions loses around are 10% Chris

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Why is it that we have to “tax” functioning, efficient sources of energy and “subsidize” pipe-dream technologies such as wind and solar power?

Wind and solar are not pipe dreams, but existing technologies which simply need the economic push of tax breaks to gain wider introduction.  ”Functioning”, “efficient”: you left out “polluting.” How about letting market forces prevail?

Because the market does not take into account the externalities of pollution and social/environmental costs, unfortunately. Conservation and efficiency are not “forms of energy”. They are euphemisms for “do without”. Taking conservation to a natural limit would be the use of no energy. Is this the goal of groups such as Greenpeace? This sounds like a thinly veiled advocacy of the elimination of technology.

You sound like a thinly veiled ecophobe.  Doing without IS what we need to do– present energy use is short-sighted, wasteful, and inefficient.  Who says anything about taking conservation to its “natural limit”?? By definition, conservation implies NOT going to its limit.  Somehow, I doubt the elimination of technology and energy usage are the goals of ANY environmental groups, no matter how ‘radical.’ Jon. “In wildness lies the preservation of the world.”solar water heater panel

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1. What is the total energy consumption (TEC) per year in U.S.?

In 1990, total U.S. energy consumption was 81.5 quadrillion BTU, of which 23.4% was coal, 41.3% petroleum, 23.8% natural gas, 11.5% other.  [1992 Statistical Abstract of the United States, table 911.] Energy consumption per capita was 327 million BTU in 1990, compared to 335 million BTU in 1980. Energy consumption per dollar of GNP was 19,600 BTU in 1990, down from 23,800 BTU in 1980 and 27,500 BTU in 1970. [1992 Statistical Abstract of the United States, table 913.] Residential energy consumption in 1987 averaged 101 million BTU per household.  Freestanding single-family homes used the most, 115 million BTU, while units in buildings of five or more units averaged 64 million BTU.  Families with total income under $5,000 averaged 83 million BTU, compared to 96 million BTU for families with incomes between $20,000 and $24,999 and 129 million BTU for families with incomes over $50,000.  [1992 Statistical Abstract of the United States, table 920.] solar water heater panel

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John Higdon writes (in part): Conservation and efficiency are not “forms of energy”. They are euphemisms for “do without”. Taking conservation to a natural limit would be the use of no energy. Is this the goal of groups such as Greenpeace? This sounds like a thinly veiled advocacy of the elimination of technology.

Bingo.  I commend your attention to Virginia Postrel’s brilliant essay “The Green Road to Serfdom” in the April 1990 issue of Reason magazine.     Alan T. solar water heater panel

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Here is a press release from Greenpeace.  I don’t work for Greenpeace; contact it directly at the telephone numbers given if you need more information.  Greenpeace Says BTU Tax Draws Clear Line Between Past and Future of Energy  To: National Desk, Environment Writer  Contact: Steve Kretzman, 312-666-3305, or Blair Palese, 202-319-2494           both of Greenpeace    WASHINGTON, Feb. 18 — Reacting to the sea-change in domestic policy announced by President Clinton in his address to Congress last night, Greenpeace praised the new BTU tax proposal as a necessary first step to returning the United States to the forefront of environmental protection and economic success.    ”President Clinton is attempting to face the twin crises of economy and environment for the first time in years with his proposed energy tax,” said Greenpeace’s Steve Kretzmann.  ”If enacted, the tax could begin to chart a new and positive energy course for this country that finally factors in environmental protection.”    The tax, according to reports, will exempt only solar, wind power, and efficiency measures.  It will tax all other sources according to their heat content.  While some energy sources will bear a greater percentage increase in price, their price relative to each other should not change — except for energy efficiency and renewables which, by virtue of their exemption, will become more competitive on the energy market.    President Clinton also announced an end to funding for nuclear power research and development.  ”Finally we have a president who understands how enormously expensive and destructive nuclear power is,” Kretzmann said.  ”Greenpeace fully supports this effort to end the squandering of taxpayer dollars on this obsolete, polluting and unpopular source of energy.”    Yearly subsidies to the fossil fuel and nuclear industries of approximately $50 billion have traditionally weighted the market heavily toward these sources.  Numerous recent studies, including Greenpeace’s “Energy for Employment,” demonstrate that clean energy sources create more jobs and are cheaper overall than traditional energy sources.    ”We’re hopeful that the Clinton administration has indeed taken steps to ensure that the burden of this tax does not fall unfairly on those who can least afford it,” said Kretzmann. “Greenpeace is adamant that any tax must be socially, as well as environmentally, just.”  President Clinton also mentioned his support for the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) with accompanying worker and environmental parallel agreements.  ”In its present form the NAFTA does not adequately protect workers or the environment,” Kretzmann said.  ”President Clinton will have to renegotiate the NAFTA itself if he wants to protect the groundwork he laid with his energy tax last night.” solar water heater panel

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The tax, according to reports, will exempt only solar, wind power, and efficiency measures.  It will tax all other sources according to their heat content.  While some energy sources will bear a greater percentage increase in price, their price relative to each other should not change — except for energy efficiency and renewables which, by virtue of their exemption, will become more competitive on the energy market.

Since solar and wind account for <1% of the electricity produced, it looks like environmentalists and the rest of us will be paying more for the electricity that we use.  Since the utilities will be allowed to just pass this tax on to the consumers, I don’t see any incentive to switch. How does “energy efficiency” get onto the energy market? Believe it or don’t, it takes _real_ BTUs to light up your house.   President Clinton also announced an end to funding for nuclear power research and development.  ”Finally we have a president who understands how enormously expensive and destructive nuclear power is,” Kretzmann said.solar water heater panel  “Greenpeace fully supports this effort to end the squandering of taxpayer dollars on this obsolete, polluting and unpopular source of energy.”

Looks like we’ll be buying that technology back from Japan, France, and Korea at the end of the Administration.   Yearly subsidies to the fossil fuel and nuclear industries of approximately $50 billion have traditionally weighted the market heavily toward these sources.solar water heater panel  Numerous recent studies, including Greenpeace’s “Energy for Employment,” demonstrate that clean energy sources create more jobs and are cheaper overall than traditional energy sources.

They also don’t provide base load power. I see no incentive for a utility that needs more base load capacity to build a windmill.   “We’re hopeful that the Clinton administration has indeed taken steps to ensure that the burden of this tax does not fall unfairly on those who can least afford it,” said Kretzmann. “Greenpeace is adamant that any tax must be socially, as well as environmentally, just.”

Sorry. Won’t happen. How about some logic, idiots? 1. The poor mainly live in cities. 2. Cities are served by large utilities. 3. Large utilities need HUGE amounts of baseload power. 4. Baseload power consists of large plants that can stay running all the time. 5. The only large plants that can stay running all the time are fossils,    hydro, and nuclear. 6. Fossils, hydro and nuclear are being taxed. 7. Consequently, the poor will be taxed. This is an extremely “socially unjust” (in your words) tax. Sorry Bill, try again. —      ”Here are the young men, the weight on their shoulders…” solar water heater panel

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Sorry. Won’t happen. How about some logic, idiots? 1. The poor mainly live in cities. 2. Cities are served by large utilities. 3. Large utilities need HUGE amounts of baseload power. 4. Baseload power consists of large plants that can stay running all the time. 5. The only large plants that can stay running all the time are fossils,   hydro, and nuclear. 6. Fossils, hydro and nuclear are being taxed. 7. Consequently, the poor will be taxed. This is an extremely “socially unjust” (in your words) tax.

So what about a minumum energy threshold? ie you are allowed to consume x amount of electricity before you becaome liable for a tax. Admittedly this does have one problem in this country (UK) at least, in that electric heaters are the cheapest form of heating to install, they are however horrendously expensive to run. This would suggest to me that a tax on electrical heating systems combined with a subsidy to promotoe other froms would be the most desireable or socially more just system. Fossil fuel stations have being getting a lot of stick lately (quite rightly), however with Combined Heat and Power system they can achieve efficiencies of over 70% (in terms of energy in vs useful energy out). Small stations sighted locally with proper pollution safeguards can provide relatively clean electricity (compared with trad stations) and cheap space and water heating, which is the major consumers of energy. And you cut down on transmission loses.solar water heater panel

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1. What is the total energy consumption (TEC) per year in U.S.? 2. What is the New BTU tax based on the TEC? 3. How much a family of 4 needs to contribute to the new tax? — Disclaimer: Of course, don’t be ridiculous! The article doesn’t represent             the viewpoint of my Laboratory and should not be liable for             any legal or moral dispute.                solar water heater panel

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The recent postings of: raise a number of interesting issues. Regarding electric heating and nuclear power, it should be clear that, for northern utilities at least, they have very little to do with one another.  The load factor for electric resistance space heating is somewhere in the range of 20 to 35 percent, based upon diversified peak load – the “average” peak load seen by the utility.  This is NOT<< a load that a nuclear unit can easily satisfy directly.solar water heater panel  Most responsible analysts (people that consider more than just O&M costs, like the OECD NEA for example) suggest that the economics of base-load nuclear units become questionable below an annual capacity factor in the 70 to 80 percent range. True enough, it is technically feasible to use pumped-hydro or compressed air energy storage to cover low load-factor loads, but economics are another matter.  (These add to the capital and operating costs of the energy supply system but don’t add any energy.  They thus drive the economics in the wrong direction.) Of course there ARE<< viable alternatives electric space heating: distributed natural gas (where available), oil, and propane come to mind.  Electric and dual-fuel heat pump technology can also be used to reduce the electricity required for space heating and to reduce the peak-coincident space heating load.  Of course, none of this directly affects the prospects for nuclear power development (in this region at least) because the electricity displaced would be sourced from intermediate- or peak-load plants: OIL-FIRED plants.solar water heater panel  The indirect effect of these “demand-side” load management technologies on nuclear power prospects remains interesting, however.  Such DSM technologies will modify the load-shape of the utility, reducing its peak and increasing its annual load factor. Because they are typically implemented using rate-based incentives, they can also reduce the capital requirements for the utility, which no longer has to invest in gas turbines and transmission capacity to meet the peak load.  The DSM can thus leave the utility with higher load factors and a lower debt load — a good position from which to invest in capital-intensive nuclear units.  [Now, explain to me again, why is it that pro-nukes don't like DSM and anti-nukes do?] Tax equity?  There’s an oxymoron if ever there was one!  Seriously, one shouldn’t ” . . . just tax the companies . . ” because it would be unfair.  It would also be foolish, from a pro-nuke perspective. Taxes are a price of citizenship!  I know, I know we all have cottage (or high-rise) industries of lawyers and accountants devoted to little but tax avoidance, but this is just the price of life in a free society.  Taxes are, in a fundamental sense and at some level, something that must be borne in our common interest. Sure, lots of the money’s wasted, but that gives me no right to argue that some other citizen should pay my fair share of taxes. Large users also generally have electricity bills that are big enough to have forced them to use fairly advanced technology to control their loads.  Having done a lot of conservation and DSM already, they might have little room to move to reduce consumption and avoid the tax.  They also maintain a high annual load factor, 80 percent or more in our area. They therefore represent a load that can be serviced by nuclear power plants.  If you really want to build more nuclear plants,solar water heater panel  is it sensible to stick industry with the whole tax and (perhaps) force them to adopt entirely different technology such as CHP?  You might<< be able to convince me that this is a good idea, but I’d be surprised to see the typical pro- nuke advocate argue for it. (Not that it would be a bad idea for them to try!  It’s actually good training for an advocate, a judge and a citizen!)

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solar water heater india  I should say I am sorry for the way my last post about moving to LA sounded. SO here it is  I AM SORRY!!   What I should have said was  Should I move to LA?   I am in a wheelchair in a town that quite frankly is not ready for an actor in a chair.   All the have here right now are period pieces and Black production which I am not right for either.    I do not have my SAG  card  but can get my AFTRA( Hope I spelled it right) at any time I choose.  I do not need to get a job in LA.  SO if anyone has any ideas that might help me please respond Thanks and again I am SORRY

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and, frankly, if Atlanta isn’t ready for a (bitter) person in a wheelchair, maybe you need to reevaluate solar water heater india your move. You’re throwing yourself into a huge market, and mostly you’ve reacted with hostility to people that responded to you. That, combined with your handicap, are not going to bode well in a plastic city like LA. angie “into the garbage chute flyboy” if you don’t know who said that, you’re living in a van down by the river.

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Not to burst you bubble, solar water heater india but, I work in this LA market, and recently on what is euphemistically called visiting day at Central Casting, I was walking up the stairs and another very old fellow was trying to get down the stairs. He was really struggling as he is on crutches etc.  I asked him if I could help and he about broke into tears.  He told me he had been standing there for an hour trying to get help and  the others in line just ignored him like he had leprosy or something. We got to talking and he told me he had been in SAG since the thirties, I asked to see his  card, it had a number in the low one hundreds, mine is in the 500,000’s,  and he told me flat out, that it is nigh on impossible for people with disabilities to get any work. I helped him get outside and to the bus stop.  He was great to talk to, full of stories about the old days, but the upshot is, if you are disabled, forget it.  Producers just will not touch you for tons of reasons.  Some of them selfish and some not necessarily selfish, like fear of liability. The fact is movie sets are inherently dangerous places to be.  You have to have lots of light and the sets tend to be made of combustible material, so fire hazard is high.  Plus stunts are often involved, should a car in motion lose control, a guy on crutches is a gonner if he is in the wrong spot. There are lots of reasons why disabled people will not work in this business.   If the writer requires a disabled person, it most likely will go to someone with the ability to get out of the way quick should the need arise. The person I mention and many like him, I believe are perfectly capable and perfectly appropriate for certain roles.  And I would love to see them have the chance to perform.  The reality is something else.  Sad but true.

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If you want to be noticed I solar water heater india think standup work is far superior to most anything else. I did open mike at Laugh Factory tonight.  Second  time for me and would you believe, for the second time the owner was not there. Actually that worked out because a guy who only wanted to be seen by the owner gave me his place in line and left. OTOH I was not fully prepared cause I did not know if I would go on or not. You have to arrive very early for that place.  Bummer. But most of the other comics were fun to chat with.  One guy left his family of five kids and a wife to drive out here from Kansas.  He sleeps in his van and takes showers with a solar water heater he bought at Wal-Mart and eats canned tuna to keep going.  He told me he did Comedy Store in 87.

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I don’t think I am more dangerous than anybody else.  The difference is I am willing to take all into account and try to anticipate better for the future. There is no show worth dying for.

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If ya need any pointers solar water heater india , or have any questions regarding comedy feel free to ask me. My last showcase at the Laugh Factory … the owner wasnt there either and it was suppose to be my LAST showcase before I became a regular. They then told me to come back for yet another showcase. Ive had nothing but killer shows there and my only comments from the owner is … “you are wonderful…. I love you, dont change a thing!” So make me a freaking regular then!!! I dont find DOING stand-up nearly as frustrating as dealing with the “people” in the “positions of power”. Im in for the long haul though and Ill show them damnit!! heheheh (Sorry had to vent). Let me know when u are going up again Bill.

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Do you change the act every time, or do you try to perfect what you have?  I would think you would have to change a lot lest the other comics steal what you have in the event it is good.

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Yea……. regular means solar water heater india PAID regular which unfortunately isnt much out in LA areaa. As far as changing material. I can do a 45 min routine but at the Comedy Store and most places you are only aloud to do 15-10 mins. I find I do pretty much the same 15-10 mins each time I go up …..unless its on a slow night or an open mike night and Im trying out new stuff. In Hollywood you never know who is going to be in the audience so I make sure Im doing my “top” stuff. Occassionally I do stuff I havent done in awhile or I add some new stuff ….. but generally its the same format. Im at the Comedy Store in the Main room Fri March 12.

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Good for you.  Don’t take crap.  I don’t. If I wanted that I would get a real job. One guy said you do at least 6 open mikes before you can do the showcase thing. Does regular mean paid regular?

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Not only heard some solar water heater india great stories but have seen all sort of accidents happen right before my eyes.

Well when I do get work  let me know if you are there are not    Sounds like you’re dangerous  Anyway  as I said  if it is your time to go  well  nothing will stop it..

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Well I found this solar water heater india quite facinating due to the fact that Iam a diasbled actor. When I was up in Canada I got some decent background work because I gave “variety” to the scene. That was fine by me because I got paid more than the regular generic extras. I have been in LA for 1 and a half years now and Iam just getting back into acting over the last 3 months. The ONLY parts I am being sent out on are for “little people”in commercials. I am 3′6″, late 20s, female for the record. It pisses me off and frustrates me to no end is that I cant seem to get sent out for just regular type roles. When the writers for most shows make the break-down of the characters for the most part a little person wont get sent out unless it specifically says……someone under whatever height. I am a professional stand-up comedian and I have come to the conclusion that I have to concentrate on getting the exposure through my stand-up comedy in hopes that some “industry” people will approach me with something. It has been a hard haul but Im happy to say its been all UP hill!! Iam very proud of what I have accomplished and I have faith that my talent with shine through. Well I thought I would throw my 2 cents in. If anyone is in the LA area…….I perform at the Comedy Store on Sunset a few times a week at least … come on down! Best of luck to all!!

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The fact is movie solar water heater india sets are inherently dangerous places to be.  You have to have lots of light and the sets tend to be made of combustible material, so fire hazard is high.  Plus stunts are often involved, should a car in motion lose control, a guy on crutches is a gonner if he is in the wrong spot.

Yeah like when there is a 44mag bullet lodged in the barrel of a pistol and when they fire a dummy round it goes and kills the star of the show( The Crow)  Or when a helicopter crashes down and cuts the head off the star of the show ( Twlight Zone)  When it happens it happens and no matter if you are abled bodied are not when it is your time your going to go.  Producers just will not touch you for tons of reasons.  Some of them selfish and some not necessarily selfish, like fear of liability.  Most are just afraid of disabled people as are most people alive today.   They don’t know how to treat someone disabled, and Frankly it is tough even for me. You never know if when you try to help someone what they will do. Will they be kind or will they get mad because they don’t want your help?  But isn’t that true of everyone alive today. You never know, if that guy going down the street abled bodied or not, is going to pull out a gun and shoot you when you approach him.   Yes you hear stories of how disabled people go off the handle when asked if they need help.  Those few are ruining the name of the majority. But is not that the same as everyone?  I mean some those guys in Texas who kill the black solar water heater india man by dragging him behind that truck. well they have brought out doubt and hatred for all.  I am a pround southern white man( does that make me a racist? No)  And I believe that the three can’nt called them men because their not.  but their punishment should be the exact same  thing they did to the guy.  Where is this all going you say? well it just goes to show how a few can ruin it for all, and most people are decent and kind no matter if they are in diabled or not.   Some one mentioned me being “Bitter” and yes some time I do get pissed why well I sit and think why was I put in a chair,  and why are there people who were born to live their lives with a disablitiy while you have creatures such as I mentioned above  alive and well.   and I think about it and drink a drink and say  ”That’s just the way it is” There are lots of reasons why disabled people will not work in this business.   If the writer requires a disabled person, it most likely will go to someone with the ability to get out of the way quick should the need arise.

Yeah  I agree it is far easier to solar water heater india do that , But from what you are saying is that a set is a very VERY dangerous place in which accidents are happening all the time and people are getting injuried every day. I was on a set years ago and the most dangerous thing I saw was after the days shoot was over and they got the extras ( which I was) to drive the rented vechicles back to the city. Now you give complete control of cars to a group of teenagers that is dangerous because there was a lot of burning rubber and speeding cars that night..  I am sure that there are safety controls every where and every set is as safe as it can be. Or well  most set would be closed down because I know for a fact that the Union will not let it happen and an actor who is making 22 million dollars will not step foot on a set if he thinks that there is a good chance that he will get seroiuosly hurt or killed.   What it is is that years ago people with disablities were locked up and never let out in the public eye and that is the reason why we are having trouble getting in films. we should never been seen or heard.    Anyway I am glad that you had the luck of talking to and being with a disabled person so that you know now that we are just like everyone else,  And we won’t break if we are touched.  And I can say with a high amount of honestly that if you ever write, produce or direct a film you will  be more apt.(spelling) to think twice, thrice etc… as to hire someone that is disabled. It takes people such as you to chance to system.  You probalely heard some great tales.  Later dude

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Anyway I am glad that solar water heater india you had the luck of talking to and being with a disabled person so that you know now that we are just like everyone else, And we won’t break if we are touched.

I felt sorry that we both live in a world of such indifference.  To me, if someone is going to make the effort like this guy was doing he should be given a chance.  But Hollywood don’t work like that.  And I can say with a high amount of honestly that if you ever write, produce or direct a film you will  be more apt.(spelling) to think twice, thrice etc… as to hire someone that is disabled. It takes people such as you to chance to system.  You probalely heard some great tales.

Not only heard some great stories but have seen all sort of accidents happen right before my eyes.  Just a week ago on a popular sitcom, I saw a cameraman on a track dolly get whacked big time by a sports car in an outdoor scene. Another nobody’s fault type of deal.  The grips had placed sandbags to stop the car, but evidently, after each take the crept forward a little.  By the third or forth take, they were too close to the track for safety.  When the car hit, is sounded like a perfect strike in a bowling alley.  They took him to the hospital solar water heater india and he was expected to be ok. One time I was working as a cop where I have to get a character of of a line and escort her to somewhere else, well they wanted the scene to end with just a shot of her, so I had to crouch into an area occupied by a water fountain to be out of frame.  Well, this water fountain was held to the wall by just a couple drywall screws and was in no position to take any force from the side.  Well you guessed it, off it went and right into the focus puller with a thud.  Luckily it missed him, but by a small margin.  Well I learned a lesson, don’t trust anything! As far as stories I have heard, they are too numerous to go into. Good luck.

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Ok, I lived in LA for 6 years as a struggling actor, and while there, working as an extra on ‘thirtysomething’ I met a great friend who was also an extra and in a wheelchair.  She has solar water heater india CP and had been working as a regular extra on many shows for years.  They loved her and continued to have her back.  She worked more than me.  Now I know it was just extra work, but I often wonder where she is now and how she’s doing.  She worked harder and was more motivated than any actor I ever met.  She was always finding her way into studios and meeting with producers…so, my point is, anything is possible.  You just have to be willing to do the work for it.

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Bill… I would say that you are mostly correct.. however there are a few actors with disabilities who do work, but I mean a ‘few’  … years and years ago when I was in LA and worked at a major talent agency while paying my dues… we represented an actor in a wheel chair who got some work…. not much but he did.. I ‘m now in Florida and there is an actor who is sight-impaired and he gets some work.. he is on the AFTRA and SAG boards and also performs on stage.. Now I am sure that these people are a minority, but it can happen. You’re right, It is solar water heater india truly sad that Hollywood, in particular, even sees age as a disability. BTW,  that was great you made the effort to help this man…  I’m sure he will remember that. Jessie

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I guess that means solar water heater india  in a word……. no. But don’t listen to what others tell you or then it really means….. no. And get ready to be kicked in the butt, for you’ll probably come across someone who’ll oblige you.

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Stop by www.sixriverssolar.com and look at the complete packaged solutions available. I encourage you to also look at the competitor’s tanks which come with a 3-5 year warranty.solar water heater phoenix az  Note that we come with a 20-year warranty! Cordially; Michael Eckhard Six Rivers Solar, solar water heater phoenix az

solar water heater phoenix az My gas bill has been climbing, and it just jumped big time from last month’s bill.  I’m talking about RATES here, not usage.  I’m being charged $1.75/therm, and that could keep rising, for all I know.  I was charged $0.52/therm a year ago. As we live in So. California, almost all of our gas usage is for hot water. We have plenty of sunshine, although not a lot of place to put solar panels, except on the roof of the garage…. How can I get started?  I want to look into getting solar water heating here.  I am willing to “do it myself.” Any recommendations about solar heating panels would be appreciated.  Is there a secondary market on these things?  ebay??!  Maybe I should just make my own, but I don’t want the heat to be dissipated into the cosmos at night. I figure I might be able to make custom solar panels that would look reasonable on my garage roof.  Thus they might be non-rectangular in shape. The south-facing part of the roof, unfortunately, is the part visible from the front of the house. I wonder how I might quantify the thermal output of a solar panel.  I’d like to equate it to “therms,” so I might get some idea of the cost benefit of this, before taking the plunge. solar water heater phoenix az

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You are amazing.  Congratulations! solar water heater phoenix az

solar water heater phoenix az you could do what I did, buy the panels and tank second hand from an auction house I paid 110 australian dollars (about 60 US dollars I think) for two panels(with glass intact) and two tanks. I had to repair one of the panels as it had been burst by frost freezing the water. Took about half an hour. Did all the plumbing and electrics myself and now my monthly HW bill is ZERO. Cheers Tony.. — Tony Leathem LecWreck 25 Coulson Place Orange NSW 2800 Australia My gas bill has been climbing, and it just jumped big time from last month’s bill.  I’m talking about RATES here, not usage.  I’m being charged $1.75/therm, and that could keep rising, for all I know.  I was charged $0.52/therm a year ago. As we live in So. California, almost all of our gas usage is for hot water. We have plenty of sunshine, although not a lot of place to put solar panels, except on the roof of the garage…. How can I get started?  I want to look into getting solar water heating here.  I am willing to “do it myself.” Any recommendations about solar heating panels would be appreciated.  Is there a secondary market on these things?  ebay??!  Maybe I should just make my own, but I don’t want the heat to be dissipated into the cosmos at night. I figure I might be able to make custom solar panels that would look reasonable on my garage roof.  Thus they might be non-rectangular in shape. The south-facing part of the roof, unfortunately, is the part visible from the front of the house. I wonder how I might quantify the thermal output of a solar panel.  I’d like to equate it to “therms,” so I might get some idea of the cost benefit of this, before taking the plungsolar water heater phoenix az.

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My gas bill has been climbing, and it just jumped big time from last month’s bill.  I’m talking about RATES here, not usage.  I’m being charged $1.75/therm, and that could keep rising, for all I know.  I was charged $0.52/therm a year ago. As we live in So. California, almost all of our gas usage is for hot water. We have plenty of sunshine, although not a lot of place to put solar panels, except on the roof of the garage…. How can I get started?  I want to look into getting solar water heating here.  I am willing to “do it myself.” Any recommendations about solar heating panels would be appreciated.  Is there a secondary market on these things?  ebay??!  Maybe I should just make my own, but I don’t want the heat to be dissipated into the cosmos at night. I figure I might be able to make custom solar panels that would look reasonable on my garage roof.  Thus they might be non-rectangular in shape. The south-facing part of the roof, unfortunately, is the part visible from the front of the house. I wonder how I might quantify the thermal output of a solar panel.  I’d like to equate it to “therms,” so I might get some idea of the cost benefit of this, before taking the plunge.solar water heater phoenix az

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Hi there, you could do what I did, buy the panels and tank second hand from an auction house I paid 110 australian dollars (about 60 US dollars I think) for two panels(with glass intact) and two tanks. I had to repair one of the panels as it had been burst by frost freezing the water. Took about half an hour. Did all the plumbing and electrics myself and now my monthly HW bill is ZERO. Cheers Tony.. — Tony Leathem LecWreck 25 Coulson Place Orange NSW 2800 Australia

solar water heater phoenix az My gas bill has been climbing, and it just jumped big time from last month’s bill.  I’m talking about RATES here, not usage.  I’m being charged $1.75/therm, and that could keep rising, for all I know.  I was charged $0.52/therm a year ago. As we live in So. California, almost all of our gas usage is for hot water. We have plenty of sunshine, although not a lot of place to put solar panels, except on the roof of the garage…. How can I get started?  I want to look into getting solar water heating here.  I am willing to “do it myself.” Any recommendations about solar heating panels would be appreciated.  Is there a secondary market on these things?  ebay??!  Maybe I should just make my own, but I don’t want the heat to be dissipated into the cosmos at night. I figure I might be able to make custom solar panels that would look reasonable on my garage roof.  Thus they might be non-rectangular in shape. The south-facing part of the roof, unfortunately, is the part visible from the front of the house. I wonder how I might quantify the thermal output of a solar panel.  I’d like to equate it to “therms,” so I might get some idea of the cost benefit of this, before taking the plungesolar water heater phoenix az.

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This company can customize your solar panels.  Their web site is terrible though.solar water heater phoenix az My gas bill has been climbing, and it just jumped big time from last month’s bill.  I’m talking about RATES here, not usage.  I’m being charged $1.75/therm, and that could keep rising, for all I know.  I was charged $0.52/therm a year ago. As we live in So. California, almost all of our gas usage is for hot water. We have plenty of sunshine, although not a lot of place to put solar panels, except on the roof of the garage…. How can I get started?  I want to look into getting solar water heating here.  I am willing to “do it myself.” Any recommendations about solar heating panels would be appreciated.  Is there a secondary market on these things?  ebay??!  Maybe I should just make my own, but I don’t want the heat to be dissipated into the cosmos at night. I figure I might be able to make custom solar panels that would look reasonable on my garage roof.  Thus they might be non-rectangular in shape. The south-facing part of the roof, unfortunately, is the part visible from the front of the house. I wonder how I might quantify the thermal output of a solar panel.  I’d like to equate it to “therms,” so I might get some idea of the cost benefit of this, before taking the plunge.solar water heater phoenix az

Question:

Hi folks! I am looking into buying a solar water heater, or possibly building one on my own. Is there a FAQ for this group to get me started? I could not locate onesolar water heater panel. If there isn’t any, I would appreciate any good pointers to existing models with info on their charactersistics, efficiency, durability, etc.solar water heater panel

Response:

take a look at  solar water heater panel from there you will find many sources of information and FAQ’s. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newslettersolar water heater panel I am looking into buying a solar water heater, or possibly building one on my own. Is there a FAQ for this group to get me started? I could not locate one. If there isn’t any, I would appreciate any good pointers to existing models with info on their charactersistics, efficiency, durability, etc.solar water heater panel

Response:

I tried a search to find one, but the only thing that came up was about Migraines. Since I would like to post here on a consistent basis (I really like it here) I figure it’s only right to read up on what is and is not considered on-topic and acceptable.solar water heater panel

Response:

besides, everyone knows I am in prison and they still are really sweet to me.  Hope to get paroled at the end of the month.solar water heater panel   Terrible ordeal, do a deja search on me and you will see the whole scenario and how it transpired.

Does this mean the Jerry Springer episode via satellite got canceled?

Response:

Path: lobby!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!205.25

2.116.205!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.fast.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!n ot-for-mail – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroups: alt.support.chronic-pain Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1    ETAtAhUAhqxV4HPGsEK7owGkcwKwq1KT9+sCFGXI59ct5uIqn48P9X5pNd9×4HEl Content-Disposition: Inline I tried a search to find one, but the only thing that came up was about Migraines.solar water heater panel  Since I would like to post here on a consistent basis (I really like it here) I figure it’s only right to read up on what is and is not considered on-topic and acceptable.solar water heater panel

The only thing I have found is ANY kind of BS spam that is really snake oil, and binariessolar water heater panel  Most everything else having to do on-topic flies, and a great many of us LOVE humor.

Response:

Robin, What a sweetie you are to be concerned.  Nope, we don’t have any “rules” or “guidelines”.  Maybe it is because we don’t want to be hindered by too much nettiquette.  All of us are cp paitients and have our good and bad days. Sometimes a troll or two stops by, but we just try to be entertained and move on.   You are doing great Robin, no need to fear dear. Tracy PS, besides, everyone knows I am in prison and they still are really sweet to me. Hope to get paroled at the end of the month.  Terrible ordeal, do a deja search on me and you will see the whole scenario and how it transpired.solar water heater panel

Response:

I told Jerry I would only go on if the prison allowed me to be in a room where the chairs were not plastered to the floor, as I want to be a “part of it all” when the chairs start to fly. Jerry’s producers said they would get back to me.solar water heater panel

Response:

The consensus of the members here in ASCP is that a group moderator is not needed and not wanted. Historically we have been in agreement that no topic is forbidden here, however some topics are more appropriate in other groups and by email discussion. Currently USENet includes in excess of 40,000 separate and different groups, of which your ISP determines which you will have access to.solar water heater panel  The reason for multiple groups is to provide appropriate forums for discussion by topic. Chronic Pain and ways to live/reduce it is the primary reason this group exist. It also is meant to support Chronic Pain sufferers and provide a forum to discuss the many ramifications of our plight. Certain topics tend to disrupt conversations concerning chronic pain, and therefor should be addressed in a more appropriate forum. I am posting this not as formal rules, but rather in hope that it will serve as general guidelines for civil discourse here. I did not author the information below, rather I just compiled and edited it from various resources available on the internet. If you disagree with any of these precepts, or want to add to them, feel free to do so. This group, ASCP, is our forum, open to all and the content of the post here are the responsibility of the posters. Please remember other people will read what you write, it is your responsibility to communicate in a way so your thoughts can be understood by them. The Basics of Netiquette This is a list of basic tenets for Internet Etiquette. They are primarily focused on behavior in our ASCP newsgroup. These tenets are based on accepted practices across the Internet that have evolved over a number of years. Almost everyone who uses newsgroups over any long period will break these tenets, to some extent, from time to time. Doing so without strong cause is considered very rude. Flagrant abuse can get you filtered out or chastised severely by other members. I have divided them into The “Don’t” List, The “Do” List, and The “It Depends…” List. There are certainly more issues than those listed here, and as they become popularly agreed upon (or popularly disagreed upon) they can be added. The “Don’t” List: Don’t use a long signature. Your full name, the name of the organization with which you are associated, and a link or two to your personal URLs is usually okay. A (very) short quote or statement might be tolerable. Including your E-Mail address, unless it is different from the return address in the posting, is redundant. Much more than this is considered rude. Advertising more than a single commercial product in your signature is generally considered crass. Don’t use Text Art. When everyone used e-mail and news readers that only had fixed-width fonts, using text to draw pictures was considered cute. Nowadays most e-mail and news readers use variable-width fonts which turn the picture you spent hours on into garbage for everyone else. This shows that you either don’t understand that other people use something different than you do, or it shows that you just don’t care. Don’t use HTML. Newer news reader software allows users to use HTML to add color, backgrounds, changing fonts, and other “nifty” things to their messages. If you are writing a newsy letter to your grandmother these things are great. In our group these things tend to detract from the information in the message. After all, how important can a question be if the asker has time to embellish, illuminate, and engross a manuscript? A few tasteful things are not too bad, but remember that the person who knows the answer to your question may not want to read a message written in pink, cursive script on a purple background with animated, talking flowers in the header and borders. DON’T SHOUT! Writing messages using all upper case letters is called shouting. It is considered rude and lazy. Please put in the extra effort to find and use the Shift key. Don’t title a news post “Please Help” Use a title that gives a short description of your problem. The people who read the groups the most often, who are most likely to know the answer to your problem, read hundreds of posts each day. They are likely to skip your posting if they don’t know what it is about. Don’t try to attract attention to your post People who use things like LOOK HERE<<<<<, !!!!HELP!!!!, and similar methods to attract attention will usually cause the people who are most likely to know the answers to ignore the posting. These methods are usually an indication that the person posting the message is immature and basically rude. People who use the groups regularly know that many messages are high priority, but they usually pay the most attention to messages that are concise and well written. Don’t Cross Post It is very unlikely that any post really belongs in more than one or two newsgroups. Messages posted to long lists of newsgroups are usually garbage posted by people trying to get attention, or are posted by people too lazy to read the groups and find out where the message belongs. Don’t Multi-Post Multi-Posting is posting the same message to multiple newsgroups. Unlike Cross-Posting, Multi-Posting is where someone posts a message to more than one newsgroup but they send it to a single group at a time so that there is only one group listed in the header of each message. If you absolutely MUST post to more than one group, place all of the headers in one message. This way an intelligent News Server can put one copy of the message on the disk and then just index it under multiple groups. This saves disk space on the thousands of news servers all over the Internet. Also, when someone reads the message in one group, if they have an intelligent newsreader, they will not see it in every other group you posted it to. This will make people less likely to flame your cross-posted message. Don’t Flame Flaming is the art of flagrantly arguing with and/or insulting another person. In some groups this is considered an art form. In our group it is considered rude. Most people who use the groups on a regular basis break this tenet from time to time. It is still considered rude behavior. Don’t post commercial or off-topic posts There are special areas called “Announce” groups that are for this purpose.solar water heater panel  People who will not be extremely irritated by these types of postings will look there for them. Informal research shows that products advertised in newsgroups seldom generate purchases and always generate strong negative reactions. Don’t put “E-Mail Me, I don’t read this group” on your posting Our ASCP newsgroup are is a peer-to-peer support group. This means that everyone in the group is a volunteer and “pays” for the support they get by answering questions in the group. If you won’t read the group but want assistance then you are probably a parasite. Putting “Please E-Mail” is usually an indication of a priority problem. “I don’t read this group” is usually a sign of laziness. Don’t post Test messages here There are special newsgroups for test messages. Please use them. solar water heater panel They usually have TEST in their name, like ALT.TEST and ALT.BINARY.TEST Do not carry on “Religious” arguments Long, witty messages about how much better “this product” is than “that product” belong in the groups that are set aside for that sort of thing. These special groups have the word ADVOCACY in their title. Post your feelings in these places and someone will be happy to carry on a long and involved discussion with you about the relative merits of your beliefs and opinions. If you do not like a person, do not lurk in the newsgroup for the sole purpose of posting derogatory messages about them. You will be considered rude and immature, and your name will be added to the long list of “Ignore these twits” in the filters of many news readers. solar water heater panel

Question:

solar water heater systems I’m going to be replacing my 25 year old electric hot water heater in the near future and I want the option to be able to in the future add on a solar hot water system.  Can anyone recommend a good brand of heater to go with that will allow for expansion of the system to include a solar heater?  The current heater is an 82 gallon one and I’d like one the same size or bigger, I take verrrry long showers once in a while and would like to have a bit more hot water at the end of the shower.solar water heater systems

Response:

Bill, It depends, very much where you live.  If you live in a climate where there is no chance of freezing you will need a totally different system than if you live in one where there is a chance of freezing. Michael Dewolf

solar water heater systems I’m going to be replacing my 25 year old electric hot water heater in the near future and I want the option to be able to in the future add on a solar hot water system.  Can anyone recommend a good brand of heater to go with that will allow for expansion of the system to include a solar heater?  The current heater is an 82 gallon one and I’d like one the same size or bigger, I take verrrry long showers once in a while and would like to have a bit more hot water at the end of the shower. solar water heater systems

Response:

Hello Bill, The best option is to get a solar unit with an in-line instantaneous thermostatically controlled booster. However if you are in the US this may not be available to you as most instantaneous boosters are 3 phase. They draw between 15 and 18 Kva. I’m going to be replacing my 25 year old electric hot water heater in the near future and I want the option to be able to in the future add on a solar hot water system.  Can anyone recommend a good brand of heater to go with that will allow for expansion of the system to include a solar heater? solar water heater systems  The current heater is an 82 gallon one and I’d like one the same size or bigger, I take verrrry long showers once in a while and would like to have a bit more hot water at the end of the shower. solar water heater systems

Response:

I live in eastern PA.  I think I may have been misunderstood, I’m not looking for a solar hot water system right now, what I’m looking for is an electric hot water heater that will be compatable with a future solar hot water system.

I’m in Eastern Pennsylvania, USA.  I think I didn’t make myself clear, I’m not looking for a solar hot water system right now, what I’m looking for is an electric hot water heater that will be compatable with a future solar hot water system.  I’ve looked around online and have seen some add on systems that recommend a heater with a side mounted relief valve so I figured since I’d like to in the future put in a Solar system that I’d better get a heater that will provide the best compatability with said system. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Bill, The best option is to get a solar unit with an in-line instantaneous thermostatically controlled booster. However if you are in the US this may not be available to you as most instantaneous boosters are 3 phase. solar water heater systems They draw between 15 and 18 Kva. I’m going to be replacing my 25 year old electric hot water heater in the near future and I want the option to be able to in the future add on a solar hot water system.  Can anyone recommend a good brand of heater to go with that will allow for expansion of the system to include a solar heater?  The current heater is an 82 gallon one and I’d like one the same size or bigger, I take verrrry long showers once in a while and would like to have a bit more hot water at the end of the shower.solar water heater systems

Response:

Any electric hot water heater can work in a solar system as the “last” tank.  If you don’t want to add another tank you might want to purchase one with a heat exchange coil built in. I would just leave space for a second tank and lots of room for pipingsolar water heater systems.  I think I may have been misunderstood, I’m not looking for a solar hot water system right now, what I’m looking for is an electric hot water heater that will be compatable with a future solar hot water system. Bill, It depends, very much where you live.  If you live in a climate where there is no chance of freezing you will need a totally different system than if you live in one where there is a chance of freezing. Michael Dewolf I’m going to be replacing my 25 year old electric hot water heater in the near future and I want the option to be able to in the future add on a solar hot water system.  Can anyone recommend a good brand of heater to go with that will allow for expansion of the system to include a solar heater?  The current heater is an 82 gallon one and I’d like one the same size or bigger, I take verrrry long showers once in a while and would like to have a bit more hot water at the end of the shower.solar water heater systems

Response:

Bill, You should get a tankless hot water heater, also known as an on demand hot water heater.  If you can, get a natural gas or propane heater. Search the internet for tankless water heaters.solar water heater systems   Make sure that you a water heater that has enough capacity (the only complaint from owners of tankless water heaters).

I live in eastern PA.  I think I may have been misunderstood, I’m not looking for a solar hot water system right now, what I’m looking for is an electric hot water heater that will be compatable with a future solar hot water system.

solar water heater systemsl, It depends, very much where you live.  If you live in a climate where there is no chance of freezing you will need a totally different system than if you live in one where there is a chance of freezing. Michael Dewolf I’m going to be replacing my 25 year old electric hot water heater in the near future and I want the option to be able to in the future add on a solar hot water system.  Can anyone recommend a good brand of heater to go with that will allow for expansion of the system to include a solar heater?  The current heater is an 82 gallon one and I’d like one the same size or bigger, I take verrrry long showers once in a while and would like to have a bit more hot water at the end of the shower. solar water heater systems

Response:

Bill I’ve recently contended with the same situation.  I ordered an 80-gallon Bradford White Optimizer III because it has R24 insulation.  Our climate here presents no freeze risk, so I won’t need a glycol loop for the collectors. You may find the cement-lined Vaughn heater more practical since it can be had with either a single or double wall heat exchanger.  Also, the factory is near your end of the country. But for your long showers, if you want the convenience of both an upper and lower heat element, you would need their big unit – 116 gallons as I recall. The smaller ones cannot house both a lower element and heat exchanger. Have a look atsolar water heater systems

I’m in Eastern Pennsylvania, USA.  I think I didn’t make myself clear, I’m not looking for a solar hot water system right now, what I’m looking for is an electric hot water heater that will be compatable with a future solar hot water system.  I’ve looked around online and have seen some add on systems that recommend a heater with a side mounted relief valve so I figured since I’d like to in the future put in a Solar system that I’d better get a heater that will provide the best compatability with said system.

- solar water heater systems. However if you are in the US this may not be available to you as most instantaneous boosters are 3 phase. They draw between 15 and 18 Kva. I’m going to be replacing my 25 year old electric hot water heater in the near future and I want the option to be able to in the future add on a solar hot water system.  Can anyone recommend a good brand of heater to go with that will allow for expansion of the system to include a solar heater?  The current heater is an 82 gallon one and I’d like one the same size or bigger, I take verrrry long showers once in a while and would like to have a bit more hot water at the end of the shower.

… You should get a tankless hot water heater, also known as an on demand hot water heater.  If you can, get a natural gas or propane heater. Search the internet for tankless water heaters.  Make sure that you a water heater that has enough capacity (the only complaint from owners of tankless water heaters).

… If you go with an on-demand heater I’d suggest you make sure that it works with a built in thermostat so that it can accept pre-heated water. Some of the cheaper models simply assume the incoming water is cold and will add heat. This added heat may make the water dangerously hot (i.e. kill you). I’ve heard some people suggest that you forget the central hot water heater and simply run cold water pipes to the bathrooms/kitchen and at each such room you setup a solar water heater and on-demand heater combination. This way the hot water is right where you need it and someone taking a long shower in one bathroom won’t deplete the hot water for any other bathroom. That, and it’s one less pipe to run all over the place.solar water heater systems

Response:

I live in eastern PA.  I think I may have been misunderstood, I’m not looking for a solar hot water system right now, what I’m looking for is an electric hot water heater that will be compatable with a future solar hot water system. solar water heater systems

I would advise my customer to install the conventional hot water heater for now and cross the solar bridge when they come to it. Long term, I’d want the solar heat exchanger to be remote and accessable rather than built into the water heater that provides second stage heat for cloudy days and is subject to replacement every ten years. Worst case, I’d rather risk a low probability three hundred dollar mistake today than a high probability thousand dollar one. Of course if money is no object, just call a solar contractor and tell him you want to buy the first link in the chain. Since the oil platforms, refineries and / or nat gas pipelines that were failing on a monthly basis during 1999 and 2000 seem to be stable now, energy prices are returning to normal. This trend should be bankrupting some solar ventures and you might find some cheap equipment in the months ahead. solar water heater systems

Response:

Bill, You should get a tankless hot water heater, also known as an on demand hot water heater. solar water heater systems If you can, get a natural gas or propane heater. Search the internet for tankless water heaters.  Make sure that you a water heater that has enough capacity (the only complaint from owners of tankless water heaters).

Bosch offers models which use a thermostat to control the burner so that the heater will only run if the incoming solar heated water is not hot enough.solar water heater systems

I’m in Eastern Pennsylvania, USA.  I think I didn’t make myself clear, I’m not looking for a solar hot water system right now, what I’m looking for is an electric hot water heater that will be compatable with a future solar hot water system.  I’ve looked around online and have seen some add on systems that recommend a heater with a side mounted relief valve so I figured since I’d like to in the future put in a Solar system that I’d better get a heater that will provide the best compatability with said system.

If you’ve got gas available, Michael’s suggestion to use a tankless model is a good one. They’re much less wasteful than having a tank, take up less space, and are a perfect backup for a future solar-heated system. If you’re limited to electric, and plan a direct solar system eventually, you could use an electric tank designed for the job with two extra ports installed. We had one of these at our last place. The cost should only be a very small premium over a regular tank, except that since your choice of suppliers will be more limited, it may cost more. A single tank system like that has some drawbacks though. It can be tricky to get the elements to run only when needed. We used to keep them manually switched off unless there were successive cloudy days. There are a lot of different solar water heating schemes, it might be best if you can decide which one you prefer before buying a new tank to accommodate it.solar water heater systems

… Long term, I’d want the solar heat exchanger to be remote and accessable rather than built into the water heater that provides second stage heat for cloudy days and is subject to replacement every ten years.

… I’m told that the thing that destroys water heaters is that they rust out. They typically have an anode inside them which protects them from rust. They don’t rust out while this anode still exists. If you replace this anode every few years before the tank starts to rust then there is no reason the tank shouldn’t last significantly longer than ten years. Anthony

Response:

Is there a convenient port for anode replacement?  If so, why not install an oversized anode to start?solar water heater systems

Yes, they are often given a 5 year gar, and the anode will last longer then that so why should they. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there a convenient port for anode replacement?  If so, why not install an oversized anode to start? Derek I’m told that the thing that destroys water heaters is that they rust out. They typically have an anode inside them which protects them from rust. They don’t rust out while this anode still exists. If you replace this anode every few years before the tank starts to rust then there is no reason the tank shouldn’t last significantly longer than ten years. solar water heater systems

Response:

Question:

solar panel inverters- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hi. preface: i’m not a professional, not even close. i’m new to the subject of passive solar systems in architecture. my faculty (architecture at the warsaw (poland) university of technology) doesn’t provide any, or very little and outdated information (forget about courses for students on greendesign, ecohousing, etc. it’s just not popular in our country. yet, i hope) on renewable enrgy sources in architecture, so please forgive me my dilettantism and lack of up-to-date knowledge on the subject (question2). question1: i’m currently working on a architectural (semstrial (3sem)) project for a single family house. location:low intensity urban site in warsaw. a square lot (25m x 25m = 125m^2, which is 16,4′ x 16,4′ = 268 square feet). in proximity: two story houses from the E, SE and S, shading my flat significally in the winter season (poland-temperate climate, long-lastnig periods of cloudy days do happen).that’s why i’ve decided to place the passive indirect or isolated gain (not sure yet) solar systems on the second floor of my building. what types of air circulation system would be the best to use in order to provide warm air to the lower story? question2: i’ve been thinking about making a modification to the, already modified, trombe-miachel wall, which consist of a row (oriented W-E, south exposure) of thermal mass short walls/rectangular pillars rotated at an angle of -45deg. (longer side to SE – providing shade in morning hours and warming up, and letting the evening sun inside). what if the wall was a huge waterglass, instead of opaque brick/concrete? methinks: better thermall storage, transparency, and the opportunity to empty the wall before a long period of cloudy days in order to avoid the reversed thermall process=heat loss. is this stupid, silly, or just naive?solar panel inverters i’d be really grateful if you’d give me some advice and maybe aid me in some way, i.e. reccomend some good sites on the subject.

This appears to be a large solar panel collector on the side wall. Much cheaper to convert the whole roof to a full solar collector or install individual panel on the existing roof, as the roof angle is better suited

Response:

A few ideas to throw on the fire. Idea one..solar panel inverters If you leave it as a brick wall. Use hollow vertical channels in it wall. Then pull air through the channels (downdraft) And blow the hot air out into the lower story. Use a temperature switch to turn the fans on When the wall sections get hot. Idea two..solar panel inverters If you have a water wall. Use a water circulation system to move the hot water Into a forced air heat exchanger in the lower story.

Response:

…i’m new to the subject of passive solar systems in architecture.

You might enjoy the appended notes.solar panel inverters We are working on a more metric version for the 2005 ISES conference in Orlando, FL. i’ve decided to place the passive indirect or isolated gain (not sure yet) solar systems on the second floor of my building. what types of air circulation system would be the best to use in order to provide warm air to the lower story?

You might store heat from thermosyphoning air panels in a massy 2nd floor ceiling and move warm air down to the first floor with a 2 foot x 2 foot vertical duct and blower and return it to the 2nd floor via a stairway. During heat storage,solar panel inverters hot air from the panels might move from south to north through ceiling spancrete channels and flow back to the panel entrances, as in the Barra system, or it might pool under a solid concrete ceiling with a low-e coating beneath, with 10X more ceiling than panel surface, or it might heat a thick layer of water in flat polyethyelene film ducts over a plywood ceiling or a thinner layer of water that merely collects vs stores heat, with a low-power circulating pump and a copper coil heat exchanger in a large unpressurized tank on the ground floor, and a fan coil unit to keep the ground floor warm. question2: i’ve been thinking about making a modification to the, already modified, trombe-miachel wall, which consist of a row (oriented W-E, south exposure) of thermal mass short walls/rectangular pillars rotated at an angle of -45deg. (longer side to SE – providing shade in morning hours and warming up, and letting the evening sun inside).solar panel inverters what if the wall was a huge waterglass, instead of opaque brick/concrete? methinks: better thermal storage, transparency, and the opportunity to empty the wall before a long period of cloudy days in order to avoid the reversed thermall process=heat loss.

Trombe walls collect heat well, but they lose a lot at night and on cloudy days, because of the glazing’s low thermal resistance. Making water stand up isn’t easy. solar panel invertersWhere would you empty it to? Nick Notes for ASES Workshop on Solar House Heating and Natural Cooling Techniques Portland, OR  July 9, 2004 Written by Nick Pine, with Steve Baer, Drew Gillett, and Rich Komp. Debatable Conclusions 1. Heat flows like electricity. 2. Solar heat can be 100 times cheaper than solar electricity. 3. Superinsulated houses have to be very small or very large. 4. Direct gain houses can be improved. 5. Indirect gain can be more efficient.solar panel inverters 6. We might store heat in the ceiling. 7. We might have a separate cloudy-day heat store. 8. Low temp heat storage and distribution are difficult. 9. Shurcliff’s lung might be a good air-air heat exchanger. 10. Greywater heat exchangers can help. 11. We might also gather heat from PVs. 12. Smart ventilation can be helpful. 13. Swamp cooler controls can be improved. 0.0 Introduction The US has 5% of the world’s population and consumes 26% of the world’s energy. House heating and cooling accounts for about one third of that. In 1980, “envelope house” inventor Tom Smith said:   It’s a snap to save energy in the US. As soon as more people become   involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level,   as well as intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after   solution will appear. This workshop aims at improving that grasp, which we can control better than our US cheap energy policy… If we paid related costs of healthcare and air pollution and Gulf wars at the pump, gasoline would be a lot more expensive. Drew says this writeup needs exercises for the reader. OK: Exercise 0.1: The US consumed 20 million 42 gallon barrels of oil per day in 2003. What was the real cost per gallon? (Debatable answers appear at the end of these notes. Most people think “electricity” when they hear “energy,” even though most houses need more heating energy than electrical energy (the ratio is 1:1 in Hawaii and 5:1 in Vermont.) It’s easy to shrink the small electrical slice of the home energy pie with compact fluorescent (CF) lights and more efficient appliances. Solar heat can be very inexpensive compared to solar electricity. PV panels at $3 per peak watt cost 150X more than polycarbonate glazing at $1/50W = 0.02/Pw. And sunspaces add floorspace to a house. A square foot of “solar collector” only collects about $1/year at today’s oil prices, so anything (except PVs??? that costs more than $10/ft^2 (half of that being labor) and only collects energy with no other useful purpose seems economically-doomed… Exercise 0.2: Should we a) replace a 60 W bulb with a 14 watt CF or b) buy 60-14 = 46 additional watts of PV power or c) caulk the house? Most of us “know” how to design passive solar houses with well-established rules of thumb, but let’s relax and take a fresh look from a standpoint of basic physics…    Berlin is a nice town and there were many opportunities for a student to    spend his time in an agreeable manner, for instance with the nice girls.    But instead of that we had to perform big and awful calculations.        Konrad Zuse, inventor of the 1936 Z1 computer Overview This is a workshop on “Ohm’s law for heatflow” with applications to solar water and house heating and natural cooling. We’ll also discuss a simple greywater heat exchanger, a $60 300′ piece of 1″ plastic pipe coiled inside a 55-gallon drum. With hot water bursts of 13 gallons or less, it could be 97% efficient. If it is, why bother with solar hot water? We’ll provide arithmetic tools and data and strategies needed to site-build effective house heating and cooling systems using inexpensive materials and skills. We expect workshop participants to have some familiarity with high school algebra. We’ll discuss power, energy, heatflow, and overnight and cloudy day heat storage at the high-school math and physics level, with insulation values and heat capacities of materials, simple equations involving time constants, evaporative and night ventilation cooling, passive and low-energy solar heating, climate data, and schemes for houses that are 100% solar-heated and naturally cooled, by design. We’ll provide a calculator (Steve Baer says “Throw away your calculator.” and a CD-ROM. Promising techniques include solar closets, trickle collectors, “pancake houses,” soap bubble foam insulation, and solar attics, including systems to collect heat and electricity from water-cooled standard PV panels. I’m an EE by training, Steve Baer is a well-known solar inventor, Rich Komp is president of the Maine Solar Energy Association and a PV author with a PChem PhD, and Drew Gillett is a Professional Engineer with civil engineering and architectural degrees. Disclaimer Some of the techniques we describe are experimental. Some have never been tried. We do not accept responsibility for their safety or functionality. 1. Power and energy Energy is the stuff we pay for, measured in Joules or watt-hours or kilowatt-hours (kWh) or Calories or “British thermal units” (Btu), no longer used in Britain The British now use joules or kWh. A Btu is a quantity of heat, about the same as the energy in a kitchen match or a mouse-hour. One Btu can heat one pound (16 ounces) of water one degree F. Exercise 1.1: How many Btu are needed to heat 8 ounces of water from 50 to 200 F to make a cup of tea? Power is the rate of energy flow over time. A mere number, vs the stuff we pay for. Energy is power times time. One watt-hour of energy is equivalent to 3.41 Btu. If energy were miles traveled, power would be miles per hour. If energy were a paycheck, power would be an hourly rate of pay. Exercise 1.2: How long would it take to heat the tea water with a 300 W immersion heater? We might check this with an immersion heater and a watch and a $100 Raytek IR thermometer. Or a HOBO from Onset Computer Corp (1-800-LOGGERS.) Their $119 battery-powered U12-013 HOBO is about the size of a matchbox. It can record 43,000 12-bit samples at 1 second to 18 hour intervals of its own temperature and relative humidity (RH), with jacks for 2 more temperature probes or other devices on cables, and upload them to a PC spreadsheet via a USB port. People often confuse power and energy, as in “My house uses lots of power” (vs energy) or “My furnace capacity is 50,000 Btu,” vs Btu/h. Power is measured in watts or kW. Unlike energy, it can’t be used or consumed. People confuse heat and temperature, too. A bathtub full of hot water contains a lot of useful house heat, compared to a candle, but the candle is much hotter. A lower minimum usable temperature increases useful heat. Temperature is a measure of heat intensity. A 12-volt 100 amp-hour 50 pound automobile battery stores 267 times more energy (12Vx100Ah = 1200 Wh) than a 9-volt 500 milliamp-hour (9Vx0.5Ah = 4.5 Wh) 2 ounce transistor radio battery, at a lower voltage (ie “electrical temperature.”) The $40 battery can store about 200 kWh over its lifetime, at 20 cents/kWh. A $1 cubic foot of water cooling from 130 to 80 F stores (130F-80F)64Btu/F = 3200 Btu, ie about 1 kWh, with a much longer lifetime and simpler I/O. 2. Rich Komp, Ohm, and Newton Rich Komp (who is still alive) says heat moves by conduction (a hot frying pan handle), convection (including air movement), radiation (the sun brings about 1000 watts per square meter or 300 Btu per hour per square foot on a clear day at noon in the Sahara), and phase change (144 Btu melts a pound of ice and 1000 Btu evaporates a pound of water.) About 300 years ago, Isaac Newton said the amount of heat that flows through a wall is proportional to its area and the temperature difference from one side to the other and its thermal conductance. About 100 years later, Georg Ohm said the same about electricity: V = IR, ie a current I in amps times a resistance R in ohms produces a voltage difference V. Electrical conductance is measured on … read more »

Response:

Much cheaper to convert the whole roof to a full solar collector…

As in the solar attics of Soldier’s Grove, solar panel invertersWisconsin, which have steep south transparent (fiberglass, which might be a single layer of corrugated polycarbonate greenhouse roofing material, these days) roofs and blowers to move warm air down to the lower floors and motorized dampers to keep the warm air downstairs at night.solar panel inverters In some buildings, the warm air flows under ground floors, through horizontal channels made by lining-up holes in hollow concrete blocks. Storing heat in a massy ceiling instead of a floor might require less blower power and make warmer water. A slow ceiling fan and room air thermostat and occupancy sensor might keep the room warm as needed, vs the uncontrolled heat from a cooler floor that can’t be turned off during setback periods. Nick

Response:

<snip some good stuff from the solar conference Exercise 3.2: What’s the thermal conductance of an 8′x16′ R10 wall? If it’s 70 F indoors and 30 F outdoors, (70F-30F)/0.2F-h/Btu = 200 Btu/h of heat power will flow through 1 ft^2 of R5 wall.

A small bit of proof-reading here Nick, it should read “(70F-30F)/5 (F-h/Btu) = 8 Btu/h… through 1ft^2 of R5 wall.”  Or, if you prefer, “(70F-30F)*0.2 Btu/h-F = 8 Btu/h … through 1ft^2 of R5 wall”.  Just think about whether the heat flow should increase or decrease with a larger R-value. But stud walls have lower stud resistances (R1/inch “thermal bridging”) in parallel with the insulation resistance and heat collecting stud fins on each side of the wall in the form of sheathing and drywall, which lowers the overall R-value. Ignoring the fins, we can look at a 10.66 ft^2 16″x8′ wall section with R13 insulation framed with R1 per inch 2×4s on all edges as a “stud conductor” with 2(16/12+8)1.5/12 = 2.33 ft^2 of surface in parallel with a 10.66-2.33 = 8.33 ft^2 “insulation conductor.”  The studs have a 1/(R1×3.5″) = U0.2857 U-value and the insulation has 1/R13 = U0.0769. The combined conductance is 2.33×0.2857+8.33×0.0769 = 1.306 Btu/h-F, for an effective R-value of 10.66ft^2/1.306buhf = R8.2, vs R13, without the studs.

No, that isn’t right.  A typical 8′ wall with studs 16″ ‘on-center’ does *not* have that much ’stud area’ in a 16″ section.  You’re counting the surface of both vertical studs when you should only count one (or 1/2 of the stud on each side if you prefer).  Looking at a typical wall, measure from the left edge of one stud to the left edge of the next stud.  It is 16″.  So any 16″ section of wall only has one vertical stud, not two.  If you use your number for an entire wall, you’re counting each stud in both adjacent 16″ sections. And although the studs are 8′ and there is a continuous footer and header below/above them, the flooring and ceiling overlap with part of the header/footer so that not all of their faces are exposed.  If half of the footer is above the flooring, and half the header below the ceiling, then you have an 8′ 1.5″ high wall (for a surface of 10.833 ft^2).  Or, take the 8′ high wall literally, then both the header and footer should be ignored (unless you have every 8′ stud cut to 7′ 9″, and I’ll bet no construction does that). A 16″ wide section of a typical wall would have (1*8′ + 1*16″/12)* 1.5″/12 = 1.16 ft^2 of wood surface with 10.833 -1.16 = 9.667 ft^2 of insulation.  A simple cross-check is that the insulation between studs is 14.5″ wide and 8′ tall for a total of 14.5/12 * 8 = 9.667 ft^2. Thus you have 1.16ft^2 of R3.5 (3.5″ of R1 wood) and 9.667 ft^2 of R13. Combined this is 1.16ft^2 /3.5 + 9.667 /13 = 1.076683 for an effective R-value of 10.8333/ 1.076683 = R10.06, vs R13 without the studs. (Handling the header and footer can vary depending on just how the wall is constructed.  But the vertical studs is *definitely* just one vertical for each 16″ of wall.) <snip a lot of other information daestrom

Response:

hi. first of all: great thanks for all replies! This appears to be a large solar panel collector on the side wall. Much cheaper to convert the whole roof to a full solar collector or install individual panel on the existing roof,solar panel inverters as the roof angle is better suited

well, i did’n mention anything about a sloping roof. actually, in my project i’m planning a flat roof above the 2nd floor (corresponding to the surrounding architecture of 1930′ modernism). and i think the angle of the wall is still better since in poland the sun rises only to the height of 15degrees in the midday of 21dec. and i don’t want solar collectors standing on the roof because they don’t meet my aesthetic demands one more thing: i’m not sure if i’d explained it right: i’m talking about a study project, not a real house. so, i don’t really have to worry about the costs.. what’s more; this project isn’t about passive solar, is about designing a single family house (a concept project), i decided to use passive solar, because i wanted to learn something more about theory and the techniques. therefore, i’ve just made up my decision on what thermal storage to use, and its PCM. inspired by the Ebnat-Kappel project (arch. Dietrich Schwarz) , i found some info about the technology using parrafine wax as thermal storage in exterior walls. inter alia: /wire/doclibs/EuroSun98.nsf/id/45388C8FFE145D17C… Jacek

Response:

If it’s 70 F indoors and 30 F outdoors, (70F-30F)/0.2F-h/Btu = 200 Btu/h of heat power will flow through 1 ft^2 of R5 wall. A small bit of proof-reading here Nick, it should read “(70F-30F)/5 (F-h/Btu) = 8 Btu/h…

Thanks daestrom. I’ve corrected that. Ignoring the fins, we can look at a 10.66 ft^2 16″x8′ wall section with R13 insulation framed with R1 per inch 2×4s on all edges as a “stud conductor” with 2(16/12+8)1.5/12 = 2.33 ft^2 of surface in parallel with a 10.66-2.33 = 8.33 ft^2 “insulation conductor.”  The studs have a 1/(R1×3.5″) = U0.2857 U-value and the insulation has 1/R13 = U0.0769. The combined conductance is 2.33×0.2857+8.33×0.0769 = 1.306 Btu/h-F, for an effective R-value of 10.66ft^2/1.306buhf = R8.2 No, that isn’t right.  A typical 8′ wall with studs 16″ ‘on-center’ does *not* have that much ’stud area’ in a 16″ section.

Agreed. You’re counting the surface of both vertical studs when you should only count one (or 1/2 of the stud on each side if you prefer)…

Sure. And although the studs are 8′ and there is a continuous footer and header below/above them, the flooring and ceiling overlap with part of the header/footer so that not all of their faces are exposed.  If half of the footer is above the flooring, and half the header below the ceiling, then you have an 8′ 1.5″ high wall (for a surface of 10.833 ft^2).  Or, take the 8′ high wall literally, then both the header and footer should be ignored (unless you have every 8′ stud cut to 7′ 9″, and I’ll bet no construction does that).

Now you are making my head hurt.solar panel inverters A 16″ wide section of a typical wall would have (1*8′ + 1*16″/12)* 1.5″/12 = 1.16 ft^2 of wood surface with 10.833 -1.16 = 9.667 ft^2 of insulation.

Sure. Slide the box 3/4″ right and 3/4″ up. Just like crystallography. Thus you have 1.16ft^2 of R3.5 (3.5″ of R1 wood) and 9.667 ft^2 of R13. Combined this is 1.16ft^2 /3.5 + 9.667 /13 = 1.076683 for an effective R-value of 10.8333/ 1.076683 = R10.06, vs R13 without the studs.

Thanks again. Here’s my correction: Ignoring the fins, we can look at a 10.66 ft^2 16″x8′ wall section with R13 insulation framed with R1 per inch 2×4s on 2 edges as a “stud conductor” with (16/12+8)1.5/12 = 1.17 ft^2 of surface in parallel with a 10.66-1.17 = 9.5 ft^2 “insulation conductor.”  The studs have a 1/(R1×3.5″) = U0.2857 U-value and the insulation has 1/R13 = U0.0769. The combined conductance is 1.17×0.2857+9.5×0.0769 = 1.064 Btu/h-F, for an effective R-value of 10.66ft^2/1.064buhf = R10.03. Drew Gillett and I have a story in the Nov/Dec 2004 issue of Solar Today (at Borders and other fine bookstores.) The exec director of ASES found and corrected one of our typos at the last minute, over our objections.solar panel inverters We had written:   When you receive your quote, bite the bullet and ask yourself whether   you’d rather have a solar water heater on the roof making lots of hot   water, or a terrorist on every streetcorner and your kid being blown   up in Iraq. This was corrected to: solar panel inverters  When you receive your quote, consider that our use or fossil fuels   may contribute to unrest in the middle east.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If it’s 70 F indoors and 30 F outdoors, (70F-30F)/0.2F-h/Btu = 200 Btu/h of heat power will flow through 1 ft^2 of R5 wall. A small bit of proof-reading here Nick, it should read “(70F-30F)/5 (F-h/Btu) = 8 Btu/h… Thanks daestrom. I’ve corrected that. Ignoring the fins, we can look at a 10.66 ft^2 16″x8′ wall section with R13 insulation framed with R1 per inch 2×4s on all edges as a “stud conductor” with 2(16/12+8)1.5/12 = 2.33 ft^2 of surface in parallel with a 10.66-2.33 = 8.33 ft^2 “insulation conductor.”  The studs have a 1/(R1×3.5″) = U0.2857 U-value and the insulation has 1/R13 = U0.0769. The combined conductance is 2.33×0.2857+8.33×0.0769 = 1.306 Btu/h-F, for an effective R-value of 10.66ft^2/1.306buhf = R8.2 No, that isn’t right.  A typical 8′ wall with studs 16″ ‘on-center’ does *not* have that much ’stud area’ in a 16″ section. Agreed. You’re counting the surface of both vertical studs when you should only count one (or 1/2 of the stud on each side if you prefer)… Sure. And although the studs are 8′ and there is a continuous footer and header below/above them, the flooring and ceiling overlap with part of the header/footer so that not all of their faces are exposed.  If half of the footer is above the flooring, and half the header below the ceiling, then you have an 8′ 1.5″ high wall (for a surface of 10.833 ft^2).  Or, take the 8′ high wall literally, then both the header and footer should be ignored (unless you have every 8′ stud cut to 7′ 9″, and I’ll bet no construction does that). Now you are making my head hurt. A 16″ wide section of a typical wall would have (1*8′ + 1*16″/12)* 1.5″/12 = 1.16 ft^2 of wood surface with 10.833 -1.16 = 9.667 ft^2 of insulation. Sure. Slide the box 3/4″ right and 3/4″ up. Just like crystallography. Thus you have 1.16ft^2 of R3.5 (3.5″ of R1 wood) and 9.667 ft^2 of R13. Combined this is 1.16ft^2 /3.5 + 9.667 /13 = 1.076683 for an effective R-value of 10.8333/ 1.076683 = R10.06, vs R13 without the studs. Thanks again. Here’s my correction: Ignoring the fins, we can look at a 10.66 ft^2 16″x8′ wall section with R13 insulation framed with R1 per inch 2×4s on 2 edges as a “stud conductor” with (16/12+8)1.5/12 = 1.17 ft^2 of surface in parallel with a 10.66-1.17 = 9.5 ft^2 “insulation conductor.”  The studs have a 1/(R1×3.5″) = U0.2857 U-value and the insulation has 1/R13 = U0.0769. The combined conductance is 1.17×0.2857+9.5×0.0769 = 1.064 Btu/h-F, for an effective R-value of 10.66ft^2/1.064buhf = R10.03. Drew Gillett and I have a story in the Nov/Dec 2004 issue of Solar Today (at Borders and other fine bookstores.) The exec director of ASES found and corrected one of our typos at the last minute, over our objections. We had written:   When you receive your quote, bite the bullet and ask yourself whether   you’d rather have a solar water heater on the roof making lots of hot   water, or a terrorist on every streetcorner and your kid being blown   up in Iraq. This was corrected to:   When you receive your quote,solar panel inverters consider that our use or fossil fuels   may contribute to unrest in the middle east.

Question:

servamatic solar water heaterHi I have a garden pond (approx 700g) which I need to keep as warm as poss (in UK) – I have made a simple water heater to test the principle of solar heating. Its an aluminium frame (about 1m square) with a coil of garden hose sprayed black & polycarb cover. It works by a 12V pump & a differential thermostat, i.e as soon as the temp in the heater is a few degrees warmer than the pond, the pump circulates until the heater has filled with cool water.Its already struggling to get the pond to a reasonable temp (20C) even on a good sunny day. Does anybody have any suggestions on making a more efficient heater before I start re-inventing the wheel (is there a FAQ?)servamatic solar water heater The main questions I have are – how much effect does pipe diameter & material have & what improvement will I get by tracking the sun horizontally & vertically.

Response:

servamatic solar water heater – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -servamatic solar water heater Hi I have a garden pond (approx 700g) which I need to keep as warm as poss (in UK) – I have made a simple water heater to test the principle of solar heating. Its an aluminium frame (about 1m square) with a coil of garden hose sprayed black & polycarb cover. It works by a 12V pump & a differential thermostat, i.e as soon as the temp in the heater is a few degrees warmer than the pond, the pump circulates until the heater has filled with cool water.Its already struggling to get the pond to a reasonable temp (20C) even on a good sunny day. Does anybody have any suggestions on making a more efficient heater before I start re-inventing the wheel (is there a FAQ?servamatic solar water heater) The main questions I have are – how much effect does pipe diameter & material have & what improvement will I get by tracking the sun horizontally & vertically.

I’ll take this one.servamatic solar water heater Depending on the type of mount you probably only need to track in one axis. Since this project is for a pond I assume it will mostly be used in the warm season. It’s easy to get from 150% to 200% of the non tracked version. Since the temperature rise is low a concentrator is not required.

Duane —     Home of the $35 Solar Tracker      Receiver

Response:

I have a garden pond (approx 700g) which I need to keep as warm as poss (in UK)

Your main problem is size, or rather, servamatic solar water heaterlack of it. Tracking will typically buy you 30-40% at most – and it’s a real pain with a water collector. Doubling the size of the collector will get you 100% and no need to try to move a water-filled collector. If you go to www.dejanews.com (which is now actually somewhere less memorable on google) and do an advanced group search in this group, there’s another chap in the UK who has done quite a bit of experimenting in the past year or two, perhaps for a swimming pool rather than a pond.servamatic solar water heater For pond heating (inherently low temperature) the upside of plastic being cheap (so you can have more collector area at similar cost) more than offsets any improvement from metal (which is mostly seen at higher temperatures, anyway) – also you don’t kill any fish, etc. you have in the pond with stray metal corrosion products. — Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I have a garden pond (approx 700g) which I need to keep as warm as poss (in UK) – I have made a simple water heater to test the principle of solar heating. Its an aluminium frame (about 1m square) with a coil of garden hose sprayed black & polycarb cover. It works by a 12V pump & a differential thermostat, i.e as soon as the temp in the heater is a few degrees warmer than the pond, the pump circulates until the heater has filled with cool water.Its already struggling to get the pond to a reasonable temp (20C) even on a good sunny day.servamatic solar water heater Does anybody have any suggestions on making a more efficient heater before I start re-inventing the wheel (is there a FAQ?) The main questions I have are – how much effect does pipe diameter & material have & what improvement will I get by tracking the sun horizontally & vertically.

A garden hose can be a good insulator, depending of what material it’s made of, and keep the heat out. I suggest you use soft copper metal tubing painted black instead. Your efficiency should go up by about 40% at least. If you covered this tube with a glass covering, you could double your efficiency, from the trapped heat under the glass. You do not have to track the sun, if your panel is properly oriented, and is large enough.

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Thanks for the replies – the cost & simplicity advantages of plastic over copper was mainly what I was looking at. I don’t really want to make it much bigger for aesthetic purposes. I think the mark 2 may use 25mm plastic pipe. Will the polycarb cover improve or degrade it – I assumed it would give a ‘greenhouse effect’  - but other ‘bare’ black plastic objects seem to get much warmer than the metal parts of the panel covered by the plastic sheet. I may experiment with a homemade tracker at a later date. Thanks Neil

Response:

HI Neil Had you considered using an old central heating radiator as a collector.servamatic solar water heater Not ideal for domestic hot water heaters (fairly slow to heat up) – but pretty easy to try out….. I made one of these many years ago – seem to remember that I had two old rads – total of about 3m-squared – in a home-made ‘cold frame’ – and it produced startlingly hot water! I’m not sure about using plastic tube – don’t know how good it is at insulation – Another way (very low-tech) is black-painted  iron / steel roof-sheeting in a cold-frame – with water running down the ‘valleys’, Collect it in standard plastic gutter at the bottom end – and distribute it in some way (Cu pipe with holes in it ?) at the top end. Fit your temperature sensor to the sheeting. Crude but effective <g Have fun Adrian Suffolk UK

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Had you considered using an old central heating radiator as a collector…

I started alt.solar.thermal for “PRACTICAL uses of the sun’s heatservamatic solar water heater.” Maybe we need another group for impractical uses, eg systems with very low efficiency

Response:

Thanks Adrian Ive got an old radiator & was my 1st thought – but then I started to worry about the effect the rust on the pond – plants, fish etc. & it will rust because you’re pumping air enriched water through it. Nick – surely any hombrew use of the suns energy is a PRACTICAL use – especially if the alternative is to use electricity or burn fossil fuels to get the heat. regards Neil

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -servamatic solar water heater Hi I have a garden pond (approx 700g) which I need to keep as warm as poss (in UK) – I have made a simple water heater to test the principle of solar heating. Its an aluminium frame (about 1m square) with a coil of garden hose sprayed black & polycarb cover. It works by a 12V pump & a differential thermostat, i.e as soon as the temp in the heater is a few degrees warmer than the pond, the pump circulates until the heater has filled with cool water.Its already struggling to get the pond to a reasonable temp (20C) even on a good sunny day. Does anybody have any suggestions on making a more efficient heater before I start re-inventing the wheel (is there a FAQ?) The main questions I have are – how much effect does pipe diameter & material have & what improvement will I get by tracking the sun horizontally & vertically. Thanks Neil

Needs to be way bigger – not just twice the size. Nick W made one that worked well, see the newsgroup. Plastic hose coiled, polythene sheet cover is all thats needed. The temp rise is so low its pointless using anything better.servamatic solar water heater A big foil reflector may be a cheaper way to add more heat than more piping. Spacing the pipes out by about half to one pipe dia helps a bit as well, each pipe gets more sun when the sun angle is lower. NT

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Had you considered using an old central heating radiator as a collector..servamatic solar water heater. I started alt.solar.thermal for “PRACTICAL uses of the sun’s heat.” Maybe we need another group for impractical uses, eg systems with very low efficiency

But super cheap systems. Flat steel panel radiators work quite well, and they are very cheap. As they are ferrous you need a heat exchanger.

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…Flat steel panel radiators work quite well, and they are very cheap.

Please tell us more, using numbers. What do they cost, for what size? servamatic solar water heater How would you glaze them and estimate their solar collection efficiency? As they are ferrous you need a heat exchanger.

What kind? How much would it cost? What’s its efficiency?

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…Flat steel panel radiators work quite well, and they are very cheap.servamatic solar water heater Please tell us more, using numbers. What do they cost, for what size? How would you glaze them and estimate their solar collection efficiency?

Who cares. The roof is big, so lots of space, and the radiators are cheap and work well. You can pick them up used for free. If you want highly efficient solar collectors to collect as much solar gain as possible in a limited roof area then get thermomax panels and pay the earth. As they are ferrous you need a heat exchanger. servamatic solar water heater What kind? How much would it cost? What’s its efficiency?

A cheap indirect internal coiled cylinder is available very cheap, about 80 GBP, well in the UK anyway.  I know of one solar system using cheap panels radiators and an indirect cylinder  that has been going for about 25 years. Only one pump has bee replaced in that time.  It requires 1 litre of inhibitor about every 3 to 4 years which cost about

Question:

Here in Houston, it was announced today, that Reliant Energy is increasing it electric rate next week… I know that this kind of increase will not matter to those who off the grid… but for those who rely on grid power for electricity,solar water heater panel  it will be another load on top of the high summer bills, these people already pay… The increase in Electricity rates was approved today by the Texas Public Utility Commission… Gig

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How much $$$$$ ?????? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here in Houston, it was announced today, that Reliant Energy is increasing it electric rate next week… I know that this kind of increase will not matter to those who off the grid… but for those who rely on grid power for electricity,solar water heater panel  it will be another load on top of the high summer bills, these people already pay… The increase in Electricity rates was approved today by the Texas Public Utility Commission… Gig

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solar water heater panel

: : Here in Houston, it was announced today, that Reliant Energy : is increasing it electric rate next week… I know that this kind of : increase will not matter to those who off the grid… but for those : who rely on grid power for electricity, it will be another load on : top of the high summer bills, these people already pay… : : The increase in Electricity rates was approved today by the Texas : Public Utility Commission…

They are suppose to be more energy efficient. I don’t understand why folks want and are building such huge homes these days. The maintenance, utilities, and cleaning alone are something to consider… not to mention the higher property taxes (unless your state doesn’t have them).  I wanted to purchase a home that was 1500 sq ft or less and the new homes are all 2500 and above. Wow!  I’ve come to the conclusion the only way I’m going to get a small home is to purchase some land and build it myself via a contractor. I keep a spreadsheet with my utility information in it.  If you want to compare — our usage has remained the same, our average annual cost increase has been around 8%.  Currently we pay a fixed charge of appx. $8, plus .0745/khr, plus a fuel adjustment charge of .002460/khr. Texas, is an interesting state %~O  I heard a story on some national news program that there is a guy, who became wealthy on oil, who now plan to work on making water a commodity. I don’t recall the specifics, but he had land that resided over an aquifer and laid pipes to a city in Texas.  Just what we need, an Enron type company, bidding our water supply. Icks! I was at our library not too long ago and the utility company had loaned the library electric meters to loan to residents to checkout electric usage. The 3 things that I experienced were: (1) My new refrigerator wasn’t much better than my old.  So unless your refrigerator is ancient or broke, don’t think buying a new one will save you a lot. The “energy efficiency” ploy, might be more marketing than anything else.  I really had watched the energy usage and energy star efficiency too. (2) My computer seemed to use the most energy when the screen saver was active (even more than when I was actually using the computer) and the least after the power mgmt kicked in (no surprise there). (3) A radio with only a tape player (no clock), nothing else, seemed to use power even though there was nothing on. Things that I thought would consume energy at certain points, didn’t, and things that I was almost sure wouldn’t, did. So for the average person, it’s hard to tell. Bottom line: If you don’t need something plugged in, unplug it.  Turn lights off in rooms when not in use.  I personally shy away from decoration(s) that require energy.  Consider hanging your clothes on the line, rather than using your dryer.  Iron clothes lesssolar water heater panel

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The increase in Electricity rates was approved today by the Texas Public Utility Commission… Texas, is an interesting state %~O  I heard a story on some national news program that there is a guy, who became wealthy on oil, who now plan to work on making water a commodity. I don’t recall the specifics, but he had land that resided over an aquifer and laid pipes to a city in Texas.  Just what we need, an Enron type company, bidding our water supply. Icks!

He may be right…. our aquifers are running out of water…. we use surface water from lakes and streams, but that is limited too…. those people who have individual wells seem to do OK…. and some people, who have a rainwater catchment system, do OK too… I set my small system up in 2000, and have never run out of rainwater… That same year, I set up my PV system, and have been mostly off grid ever since…. I changed from a power guzzling desktop computer to this laptop, which did cut my power usage a lot… Gig

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So Gig, did the power go out today (sunday)  as well?

I think last sunday is was out for an hour or so… How were the temperatures when it was bright and sunny?   Hotter than you know what?

Hot as Hades…. it was also like that, today…. and my PV system got a full charge…. Car crash into a sub station or a limb across a power line could do it too. Of course when the power goes out, there will be houses out of power.

That happend here, a couple of times, this last year… There were numerous people out of power.  Want to blame the delay and length of outage  on the power company?

Not really…. I just wanted to have an alternative to the grid, for any natural or man made event that may happen in the future… Last year, when Tropical Storm Allison came over, 250,000 people were out of power, some for several days… and a part of the grid system that was blown down, and had to be rebuilt… Although these outages did not happen at my house since I was mostly off grid… they did  happen to some relatives who were on the grid… Hmmm, did you, or did you not have grid power in your neighborhood?  I know you are afraid to pull the security plug on the grid connect.  Just not 100% confident of your off grid setup?

I am gaining experience… and want to make all the mistakes now, before I go the next step… I use the grid as a back-up, just in case I have overlooked something… You are dependent on the grid.  When you walk to your local (grid dependent) grocery store for your daily food, you are relying on the grid.

That’s true.. but I was surprised to find out, that the local Costco grocery store, has a big generator in the back of the store… in case of any outage… they make their own power…. I guess it’s the sign of the times… since Allison hit last year, many large grocery stores have installed large backup generators… so they will probably remain open, during the next power outage…this growth in backup power, has also affected some of the downtown offices, which have quietly, set up their own power generating capabilities… Nearly everything else in your life, is dependent on the grid.  So in conclusion, you and me and about everyone else is dependent on the grid for everything we consume and do.  Your little homepower setup  just smooths out some of the unexpected power spikes/failures of the grid.

With the generators going in at large volume establiishments, we are a little ‘less’ dependent on the grid, than two years, ago… And there are small changes in life here…. all the school traffic signs are now solar powered…. they charge themselves up, and come on when a signal is sent over the air… they blink when school opens in the morning, and when school lets out, in the afternoon… Of course there is a sector of society that a 5.8%   increase in power will be a  ”major/fatal”  burden.,  Just think where these people would be sitting if the power price went from today’s  (more so affordable) prices to a ten fold or more increase?

Today, I received a notice from the city that they are now charging new fees to pick up the garbage… they will still pick up one container of garbage, but…. a second container will have to have a yearly sticker on it,  to show that it is paid for, too….. and each bag of garbage, like grass cuttings, will have to have a sticker on it, which can be bought from the local grocery store…. so  these  new  fees are probably due to the hundreds of millions of dollars the city lost when it invested in Enron, and some other energy companies that have gone under, recently…. So, you are right, the utility fees,  in this case a garbage utility fee, will always go up… Gig

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Houston has less competition. Up near Nacogdoches  and out towards Lubbuck in areas with with renewable energy plants built and selling the electricity. Instead of talking this stuff written in this thread.The price is going down because of competition and backup generators that can run longer during high usage periods at renewable sources sites like sawmills or chicken farms,Even heard some truckers looking at burning what you haul instead of diesel.(Logs,municiple waste,waste oil&grease,coal,etc.)Electricity is not your only energy cost.

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The increase in Electricity rates was approved today by the Texas Public Utility Commission… Gig Power/Utility deregulation!  solar water heater panelWrite your representative in Texas with your concerns — That might do a lot more to help ya than writing this newsgroup You can go to www.firstgov.gov to find out your federal and state representative information if you don’t already have it. I thought Texas, in general, was suppose to be an inexpensive place to live.  If you think utilities are high, what makes it inexpensive?  I saw some company in Texas sell Dome homes (http://www.monolithicdome.com/).  They are suppose to be more energy efficient. I don’t understand why folks want and are building such huge homes these days. The maintenance, utilities, and cleaning alone are something to consider… not to mention the higher property taxes (unless your state doesn’t have them).  I wanted to purchase a home that was 1500 sq ft or less and the new homes are all 2500 and above. Wow!  I’ve come to the conclusion the only way I’m going to get a small home is to purchase some land and build it myself via a contractor. I keep a spreadsheet with my utility information in it.  If you want to compare — our usage has remained the same, our average annual cost increase has been around 8%.  Currently we pay a fixed charge of appx. $8, plus .0745/khr, plus a fuel adjustment charge of .002460/khr. Texas, is an interesting state %~O  I heard a story on some national news program that there is a guy, who became wealthy on oil, who now plan to work on making water a commodity. I don’t recall the specifics, but he had land that resided over an aquifer and laid pipes to a city in Texas.  Just what we need, an Enron type company, bidding our water supply. Icks! I was at our library not too long ago and the utility company had loaned the library electric meters to loan to residents to checkout electric usage. The 3 things that I experienced were: (1) My new refrigerator wasn’t much better than my old.  So unless your refrigerator is ancient or broke, don’t think buying a new one will save you a lot. The “energy efficiency” ploy, might be more marketing than anything else.  I really had watched the energy usage and energy star efficiency too. (2) My computer seemed to use the most energy when the screen saver was active (even more than when I was actually using the computer) and the least after the power mgmt kicked in (no surprise there). (3) A radio with only a tape player (no clock), nothing else, seemed to use power even though there was nothing on. Things that I thought would consume energy at certain points, didn’t, and things that I was almost sure wouldn’t, did. So for the average person, it’s hard to tell. Bottom line: If you don’t need something plugged in, unplug it.  Turn lights off in rooms when not in use.  I personally shy away from decoration(s) that require energy.  Consider hanging your clothes on the line, rather than using your dryer.  Iron clothes less DJ

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As part of my personal recycling program, after removing metal, glass, plastics, and paper out of my garbage stream, I’ve found almost all the rest can be composted. For a family of 5, our weekly “garbage” to be picked up fits in a single paper grocery bag. being packaging material sensitive when purchasing helps out as well. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boardssolar water heater panel

You’re right! Frugal living will dovetail nicely with less garbage all the way around. When you think frugally, you can think of lots of ways to reduce garbage in the first place. THINK about how many things around the house you can live without, or what is actually bad for the environment. We stopped using insecticides. We cut our detergent use in half, and only use unscented, uncolored. We don’t use bleach in our laundry, nor fabric softener. We realized good, fresh water was a better drink for us than soda or commercial juice. That move alone eliminated hundreds of aluminum cans we previously had to dispose of every year. We DO compost, and agree: anything that can’t be recycled can be composted. We use cloth shopping bags, and try to reduce our use of plastics before buying the product, so we don’t bring home plastic in the first place. We burn papers, and I confess to burning small amounts of the household plastic that sneaks in. However, we do not have garbage service, and I have not had to order it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/  <snip Today, I received a notice from the city that they are now charging new fees to pick up the garbage… they will still pick up one container of garbage, but…. a second container will have to have a yearly sticker on it,  to show that it is paid for, too….. and each bag of garbage, like grass cuttings, will have to have a sticker on it, which can be bought from the local grocery store…. so  these  new  fees are probably due to the hundreds of millions of dollars the city lost when it invested in Enron, and some other energy companies that have gone under, recently…. So, you are right, the utility fees,  in this case a garbage utility fee, will always go up… Gig

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As part of my personal recycling program, after removing metal, glass, plastics, and paper out of my garbage stream, I’ve found almost all the rest can be composted. For a family of 5, our weekly “garbage” to be picked up fits in a single paper grocery bag. being packaging material sensitive when purchasing helps out as well. — Steve Spence

Same here. We generate two plastic grocery bags’ worth of trash each week, for two of us and two cats. That includes the soiled cat litter, garden waste that can’t be composted etc. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip Today, I received a notice from the city that they are now charging new fees to pick up the garbage… they will still pick up one container of garbage, but…. a second container will have to have a yearly sticker on it,  to show that it is paid for, too….. and each bag of garbage, like grass cuttings, will have to have a sticker on it, which can be bought from the local grocery store…. so  these  new  fees are probably due to the hundreds of millions of dollars the city lost when it invested in Enron, and some other energy companies that have gone under, recently…. So, you are right, the utility fees,  in this case a garbage utility fee, will always go up… Gig

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there are 3 terms you need to learn. renewable – something that can be replaced. no end to supply sustainable – renewing at a rate greater than consumption clean/green – the above 2 terms in a manner that helps, not hurts the environment we live in. The charter of this newsgroup is concerned with all 3, homepower adds the additional requirement that you can do it yourself. Nothing I have proposed requires the home element. It can be done commercially. I am also interested in the home production element as well. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards: solar water heater panel you do both. cut down on your consumption, and the offgrid components become less expensive. why do you have it in for renewables so badly you feel compelled to come to a renewables group and be sarcastic and disagreeable to those who are trying to be self sufficient? Why did Gig even mention about Reliant Energy’s rate increase here?  He was implying something, I.E., how good (affordable?  don’t go there)  his supposed renewable system and life style is.  Great for Gig wanting to be frugal.  Nothing wrong with that.  Gives him something to do. Just about everything mentioned  in this NG is  heavily depended on fossil fuels. Gig’s solar cooker is one of the exceptions.    Yet you bash and trash fossil fuels so much.  This NG is continually confused between renewable and recycling/frugal/hobby  energy usage  There is a difference. Take your veggie/biodiesel fuels you keep preaching about.  Your fryer oils you collect at your Chinese whatever restaurants and reformulate  is nothing more that a good recycling/frugal act.  Hardly renewable.  Unless your definition says that anytime  there will be a new barrel of trash on the loading docks next week for free is renewable.   I wonder if there is any sort of regulation on the restaurants  business concerning their proper handling of potential hazardous waste disposal?  Ah, yes, used, untested fryer oils fit the bill, or at least in my sector of business it does. But I should hold my toungue on this (talking about waste stream management) one since we are/shouldn’t(?) be concerned with the enviro as far as this NG is concerned  NO?.   Just letting the stuff go willy nilly to Joe Public seems like a crack in the system to me.  But this is a side topic.    The PV/.wind/battery systems wouldn’t exist without the benefits of mining/milling/processing/distribution which are heavy influence/dependant on fossil fuels for power.   It is correct that the energy from the sun/wind is renewable, but the process/mechanism to convert it into electric power isn’t.   Most of the topics in this NG should really be in alt. homepower or alt. frugal.living.  I suggest you take it there and maybe I would go away.

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Something I picked up right here on this newsgroup some years ago was using wood shavings instead of designated cat litters. It’s compostable!  We have four cats, and one big catbox. The whole things gets dumped a couple times a week. It has worked out just fine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As part of my personal recycling program, after removing metal, glass, plastics, and paper out of my garbage stream, I’ve found almost all the rest can be composted. For a family of 5, our weekly “garbage” to be picked up fits in a single paper grocery bag. being packaging material sensitive when purchasing helps out as well. — Steve Spence Same here. We generate two plastic grocery bags’ worth of trash each week, for two of us and two cats. That includes the soiled cat litter, garden waste that can’t be composted etc.  <snip Today, I received a notice from the city that they are now charging new fees to pick up the garbage… they will still pick up one container of garbage, but…. a second container will have to have a yearly sticker on it,  to show that it is paid for, too….. and each bag of garbage, like grass cuttings, will have to have a sticker on it, which can be bought from the local grocery store…. so  these  new  fees are probably due to the hundreds of millions of dollars the city lost when it invested in Enron, and some other energy companies that have gone under, recently…. So, you are right, the utility fees,  in this case a garbage utility fee, will always go up…

solar water heater panel

Something I picked up right here on this newsgroup some years ago was using wood shavings instead of designated cat litters. It’s compostable!  We have four cats, and one big catbox. The whole things gets dumped a couple times a week. It has worked out just fine.

We don’t have enough room to compost more than we already do. The cat litter would take more care in order to prevent other cats from coming round and also to prevent disease spread. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As part of my personal recycling program, after removing metal, glass, plastics, and paper out of my garbage stream, I’ve found almost all the rest can be composted. For a family of 5, our weekly “garbage” to be picked up fits in a single paper grocery bag. being packaging material sensitive when purchasing helps out as well. — Steve Spence Same here. We generate two plastic grocery bags’ worth of trash each week, for two of us and two cats. That includes the soiled cat litter, garden waste that can’t be composted etc.  <snip Today, I received a notice from the city that they are now charging new fees to pick up the garbage… they will still pick up one container of garbage, but…. a second container will have to have a yearly sticker on it,  to show that it is paid for, too….. and each bag of garbage, like grass cuttings, will have to have a sticker on it, which can be bought from the local grocery store…. so  these  new  fees are probably due to the hundreds of millions of dollars the city lost when it invested in Enron, and some other energy companies that have gone under, recently…. So, you are right, the utility fees,  in this case a garbage utility fee, will always go up… Gig

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As part of my personal recycling program, after removing metal, glass, plastics, and paper out of my garbage stream, I’ve found almost all the rest can be composted. For a family of 5, our weekly “garbage” to be picked up fits in a single paper grocery bag. being packaging material sensitive when purchasing helps out as well.

Bacon wrappers are puzzling recyclewise. My dogs are willing to step up & recycle them into dog chews when I’m not looking, but they wind up swallowing them. Cardboard pizza boxes wind up as fire starter for the fire place. The avocado pits & peels don’t seem to turn to dirt in my worm composters, so I’ve gone back to landfilling them. Karl Johanson

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Something I picked up right here on this newsgroup some years ago was using wood shavings instead of designated cat litters. It’s compostable!  We have four cats, and one big catbox. The whole things gets dumped a couple times a week. It has worked out just fine.

Watch what you grow in the composted soil. I don’t know if cryptosporidium can go from the kitty litter to food crops, but I’d be cautious. Karl Johanson

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Something I picked up right here on this newsgroup some years ago was using wood shavings instead of designated cat litters. It’s compostable!  We have four cats, and one big catbox. The whole things gets dumped a couple times a week. It has worked out just fine. Watch what you grow in the composted soil.

Just because someone composts doesn’t mean they garden. I don’t know if cryptosporidium can go from the kitty litter to food crops

Well rotted compost gets hot enough to kill contaminating bacteria. Bacteria and other baddies are killed either by very high temperatures, or a longer time at a lower temperature. but I’d be cautious.

Once it’s on the compost heap, I never touch it again.  If I were flushing or sticking it into a trash can, the litter would have to be handled repeatedly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted  textsolar water heater panel

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As part of my personal recycling program, after removing metal, glass, plastics, and paper out of my garbage stream, I’ve found almost all the  rest can be composted. For a family of 5, our weekly “garbage” to be picked up fits in a single paper grocery bag. being packaging material sensitive  when purchasing helps out as well. Bacon wrappers are puzzling recyclewise.

Burn it. I burn small amouts of household plastic. It’s not a big deal. We save burnables in the chicken house for summer months, then have a big burn in fall. My dogs are willing to step up & recycle them into dog chews when I’m not looking, but they wind up swallowing them.

Dogs do that. It’s one of the reasons I lock it up all the burnables in the chicken house. We don’t have that many chickens… Cardboard pizza boxes wind up as fire starter for the fire place. The avocado pits & peels don’t seem to turn to dirt in my worm composters, so I’ve gone back to landfilling them.

Field animals will eat peels and pits like that. They like it.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Something I picked up right here on this newsgroup some years ago was using wood shavings instead of designated cat litters. It’s compostable!  We have four cats, and one big catbox. The whole things gets dumped a couple times a week. It has worked out just fine. Watch what you grow in the composted soil. Just because someone composts doesn’t mean they garden. I don’t know if cryptosporidium can go from the kitty litter to food crops Well rotted compost gets hot enough to kill contaminating bacteria. Bacteria and other baddies are killed either by very high temperatures, or a longer time at a lower temperature. but I’d be cautious. Once it’s on the compost heap, I never touch it again.  If I were flushing or sticking it into a trash can, the litter would have to be handled repeatedly. Karl Johanson

What burns my butt is that here in Edmonton EVERY single family house pays the same monthly garbage fee, no matter whether there is ONE person living in the house or 20. Also, no matter whether they recycle like we do…creating ONE bag a week or don’t, filling, yes I’ve seen this—TWELVE bags a week. The city turned down “Tag a Bag” because they believe that people would just dump garbage in the street and in other yards. Go figure.

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Something I picked up right here on this newsgroup some years ago was using wood shavings instead of designated cat litters. It’s compostable! solar water heater panel  We have four cats, and one big catbox. The whole things gets dumped a couple times a week. It has worked out just fine. Watch what you grow in the composted soil. Just because someone composts doesn’t mean they garden.

I suppose not. I don’t know if cryptosporidium can go from the kitty litter to food crops Well rotted compost gets hot enough to kill contaminating bacteria.

If you know what you’re doing. Not for an amature like me. My grass clipping get hot sometimes, but not much else. Bacteria and other baddies are killed either by very high temperatures, or a longer time at a lower temperature.

I understand that happens in composting toilets as well. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – but I’d be cautious. Once it’s on the compost heap, I never touch it again.  If I were flushing or sticking it into a trash can, the litter would have to be handled repeatedly.

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Why not get the city to sell orange(or whatever color) trash bags with the city seal and require them to be used for city pick up. More you use more you have to buy. People who use moe pay more. It is really unfair making conservative people pay for others wasteful wanton ways. Offgridman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Something I picked up right here on this newsgroup some years ago was using wood shavings instead of designated cat litters. It’s compostable!  We have four cats, and one big catbox. The whole things gets dumped a couple times a week. It has worked out just fine. Watch what you grow in the composted soil. Just because someone composts doesn’t mean they garden. I don’t know if cryptosporidium can go from the kitty litter to food crops Well rotted compost gets hot enough to kill contaminating bacteria. Bacteria and other baddies are killed either by very high temperatures, or a longer time at a lower temperature. but I’d be cautious. Once it’s on the compost heap, I never touch it again.  If I were flushing or sticking it into a trash can, the litter would have to be handled repeatedly. Karl Johanson What burns my butt is that here in Edmonton EVERY single family house pays the same monthly garbage fee, no matter whether there is ONE person living in the house or 20. Also, no matter whether they recycle like we do…creating ONE bag a week or don’t, filling, yes I’ve seen this—TWELVE bags a week. The city turned down “Tag a Bag” because they believe that people would just dump garbage in the street and in other yards. Go figure.

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Why not get the city to sell orange(or whatever color) trash bags with the city seal and require them to be used for city pick up. More you use more you have to buy. People who use moe pay more. It is really unfair making conservative people pay for others wasteful wanton ways.

The city here offers us a choice of three sizes:  30 gallon, 65 gallon and 100 gallon.  Three different prices.  Recycling and yard waste containers are separate and free and you can have as many as you want. My mom’s city just went to the automated system, and each condo got a 100-gallon yard waste container and a 100-gallon trash container, taking up ridiculous amounts of space in the 2-car carport.  Moreover, they have NO YARDS, hence no yard waste.  My mom fills a small wastebasket the size of a plastic shopping bag each week.  The property management company (who made the choice for the homeowners) is an idiot.  Wonder how long it will take to get proper containers. — Cheers, Bev If you are going to try cross-country skiing, start with a small country.

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Why not get the city to sell orange(or whatever color) trash bags with the city seal and require them to be used for city pick up. More you use more you have to buy. People who use moe pay more. It is really unfair making conservative people pay for others wasteful wanton ways.

That’s how it is done here. Actually, you have several choices.  You can buy the bags (no other billing or record keeping involved–the price of the bags goes to the city and pays for pick up), OR you can rent a garbage can from the city, OR you can rent a garbage can from an independant trash company.  Recycling is free. Watching the pick up, it’s pretty clear they don’t keep track of the number of bags, and it doesn’t take particularly long.  I really like how our city does is, and it isn’t expensive.  For those who produce a lot of trash, it’s a little more economical to go with the independant company, but the city is competetive. Camille — http://www.sff.net/people/camille/

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Why not get the city to sell orange(or whatever color) trash bags with the city seal and require them to be used for city pick up. More you use more you have to buy. People who use moe pay more. It is really unfair making conservative people pay for others wasteful wanton ways. That’s how it is done here. Actually, you have several choices.  You can buy the bags (no other billing or record keeping involved–the price of the bags goes to the city and pays for pick up), OR you can rent a garbage can from the city, OR you can rent a garbage can from an independant trash company.  Recycling is free.

One issue is the amount of recycling that’s available.  Our area keeps cutting back on recyclables, because it’s not cost efficient (whatever the long term effects, in the short term recycling these items costs more than landfilling them).  I don’t even put out that many recyclables because the primary recycling they accept (newspapers, soda cans and bottles, etc.) are things I don’t use anyway.  I know that a lot of the things I put out in my trash are things that are theoretically recyclable (particularly paper, but also some plastics, cans, etc.) but aren’t recycled in my area.  I’m very happy that my area takes catalogs and other “slick” papers since those are very bulky and hard to get rid of but they won’t take loose papers, only books and catalogs and the like. And I live in an apartment so burning isn’t an option. solar water heater panel

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Why not get the city to sell orange(or whatever color) trash bags with the city seal and require them to be used for city pick up. More you use more you have to buy. People who use moe pay more. It is really unfair making conservative people pay for others wasteful wanton ways.

I read about one city that did this only to find that a lot of people discovered that if you use a trash compactor you can get a lot more garbage in a bag. Unfortunately for the trash collectors each bag went from weighing a few pounds each to 20+. The city’s idea was to reduce the amount of trash not make life more fair but they found out they were still using the same amount of landfill.

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I’d bet you’re paying a lot more for trash and garbage pickup than people in my area (excluding geographical adders) because they can raise the cost of those bags with little or no objection from the masses they serve.

Actually, it’s considered a tax, so they can’t. I think a automated trash collection is by far more efficient.

The problem is…compared to what?  There is such a wide variety of methods out there.  You brought up the back injury compensation–but many of the cities that have gone to automatic removal went from the old tin can method–which certainly was much more labor intensive.  Weight is limited with the bags (actually limited by law–although poeple can ignore the law, but they can’t ignore the capacity/strength of the bags).  The large bins which can be rented in place of the bags are wheeled up to the machine, and the machine does all the lifting. Again, the third party garbage pick up in our area is fully automated, but only cost-efficient for those who make a _lot_ of garbage. The main _cost_ of garbage pick up is disposal, not pick up method.  Which is why, in our area, recycling–though very labor intensive–is free, while all three methods of garbage pick up costs money. Camille — http://www.sff.net/people/camille/

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As part of my personal recycling program, after removing metal, glass, plastics, and paper out of my garbage stream, I’ve found almost all the rest can be composted. For a family of 5, our weekly “garbage” to be picked up fits in a single paper grocery bag. being packaging material sensitive when purchasing helps out as well. solar water heater panel

Bacon wrappers are puzzling recyclewise. My dogs are willing to step up & recycle them into dog chews when I’m not looking, but they wind up swallowing them. Cardboard pizza boxes wind up as fire starter for the fire place. The avocado pits & peels don’t seem to turn to dirt in my worm composters, so I’ve gone back to landfilling them. Karl Johanson

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Something I picked up right here on this newsgroup some years ago was using wood shavings instead of designated cat litters. It’s compostable!  We have four cats, and one big catbox. solar water heater panelThe whole things gets dumped a couple times a week. It has worked out just fine.

We don’t have enough room to compost more than we already do. The cat litter would take more care in order to prevent other cats from coming round and also to prevent disease spread. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As part of my personal recycling program, after removing metal, glass, plastics, and paper out of my garbage stream, I’ve found almost all the rest can be composted. For a family of 5, our weekly “garbage” to be picked up fits in a single paper grocery bag. being packaging material sensitive when purchasing helps out as well. — Steve Spence Same here. We generate two plastic grocery bags’ worth of trash each week, for two of us and two cats. That includes the soiled cat litter, garden waste that can’t be composted etc.  <snip Today, I received a notice from the city that they are now charging new fees to pick up the garbage… they will still pick up one container of garbage, but…. a second container will have to have a yearly sticker on it,  to show that it is paid for, too….. and each bag of garbage, like grass cuttings, will have to have a sticker on it, which can be bought from the local grocery store…. solar water heater panel so  these  new  fees are probably due to the hundreds of millions of dollars the city lost when it invested in Enron, and some other energy companies that have gone under, recently…. So, you are right, the utility fees,  in this case a garbage utility fee, will always go up… Gig

solar water heater panel. cut down on your consumption, and the offgrid components become less expensive. why do you have it in for renewables so badly you feel compelled to come to a renewables group and be sarcastic and disagreeable to those who are trying to be self sufficient? Why did Gig even mention about Reliant Energy’s rate increase here?  He was implying something, I.E., how good (affordable?  don’t go there)  his supposed renewable system and life style is.  Great for Gig wanting to be frugal.  Nothing wrong with that.  Gives him something to do. Just about everything mentioned  in this NG is  heavily depended on fossil fuels. Gig’s solar cooker is one of the exceptions.    Yet you bash and trash fossil fuels so much.  This NG is continually confused between renewable and recycling/frugal/hobby  energy usage  There is a difference. Take your veggie/biodiesel fuels you keep preaching about.  Your fryer oils you collect at your Chinese whatever restaurants and reformulate  is nothing more that a good recycling/frugal act.  Hardly renewable.  Unless your definition says that anytime  there will be a new barrel of trash on the loading docks next week for free is renewable.   I wonder if there is any sort of regulation on the restaurants  business concerning their proper handling of potential hazardous waste disposal?  Ah, yes, used, untested fryer oils fit the bill, or at least in my sector of business it does. But I should hold my toungue on this (talking about waste stream management) one since we are/shouldn’t(?) be concerned with the enviro as far as this NG is concerned  NO?.   Just letting the stuff go willy nilly to Joe Public seems like a crack in the system to me.  But this is a side topic. The PV/.wind/battery systems wouldn’t exist without the benefits of mining/milling/processing/distribution which are heavy influence/dependant on fossil fuels for power.   It is correct that the energy from the sun/wind is renewable, but the process/mechanism to convert it into electric power isn’t.   Most of the topics in this NG should really be in alt. homepower or alt. frugal.living.  I suggest you take it there and maybe I would go away.

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Something I picked up right here on this newsgroup some years ago was using wood shavings instead of designated cat litters. It’s compostable!  We have four cats, and one big catbox. The whole things gets dumped a couple times a week. It has worked out just fine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As part of my personal recycling program, after removing metal, glass, plastics, and paper out of my garbage stream, I’ve found almost all the rest can be composted. For a family of 5, our weekly “garbage” to be picked up fits in a single paper grocery bag. being packaging material sensitive when purchasing helps out as well. — Steve Spence Same here. We generate two plastic grocery bags’ worth of trash each week, for two of us and two cats. That includes the soiled cat litter, garden waste that can’t be composted etc.  <snip Today, I received a notice from the city that they are now charging new fees to pick up the garbage… they will still pick up one container of garbage, but…. a second container will have to have a yearly sticker on it,  to show that it is paid for, too….. and each bag of garbage, like grass cuttings, will have to have a sticker on it, which can be bought from the local grocery store…. so  these  new  fees are probably due to the hundreds of millions of dollars the city lost when it invested in Enron, and some other energy companies that have gone under, recently…. So, you are right, the utility fees,  in this case a garbage utility fee, will always go up… Gig

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there are 3 terms you need to learn. renewable – something that can be replaced. no end to supply sustainable – renewing at a rate greater than consumption clean/green – the above 2 terms in a manner that helps, not hurts the environment we live in. The charter of this newsgroup is concerned with all 3, homepower adds the additional requirement that you can do it yourself. Nothing I have proposed requires the home element. It can be done commercially. I am also interested in the home production element as well. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards: solar water heater panel and the offgrid components become less expensive. why do you have it in for renewables so badly you feel compelled to come to a renewables group and be sarcastic and disagreeable to those who are trying to be self sufficient? Why did Gig even mention about Reliant Energy’s rate increase here?  He was implying something, I.E., how good (affordable?  don’t go there)  his supposed renewable system and life style is.  Great for Gig wanting to be frugal.  Nothing wrong with that.  Gives him something to do. Just about everything mentioned  in this NG is  heavily depended on fossil fuels. Gig’s solar cooker is one of the exceptions.    Yet you bash and trash fossil fuels so much.  This NG is continually confused between renewable and recycling/frugal/hobby  energy usage  There is a difference. Take your veggie/biodiesel fuels you keep preaching about.  Your fryer oils you collect at your Chinese whatever restaurants and reformulate  is nothing more that a good recycling/frugal act.  Hardly renewable.  Unless your definition says that anytime  there will be a new barrel of trash on the loading docks next week for free is renewable.   I wonder if there is any sort of regulation on the restaurants  business concerning their proper handling of potential hazardous waste disposal?  Ah, yes, used, untested fryer oils fit the bill, or at least in my sector of business it does. But I should hold my toungue on this (talking about waste stream management) one since we are/shouldn’t(?) be concerned with the enviro as far as this NG is concerned  NO?.   Just letting the stuff go willy nilly to Joe Public seems like a crack in the system to me.  But this is a side topic.    The PV/.wind/battery systems wouldn’t exist without the benefits of mining/milling/processing/distribution which are heavy influence/dependant on fossil fuels for power.   It is correct that the energy from the sun/wind is renewable, but the process/mechanism to convert it into electric power isn’t.   Most of the topics in this NG should really be in alt. homepower or alt. frugal.living.  I suggest you take it there and maybe I would go away.

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you do both. cut down on your consumption, and the offgrid components become less expensive. why do you have it in for renewables so badly you feel compelled to come to a renewables group and be sarcastic and disagreeable to those who are trying to be self sufficient?

Why did Gig even mention about Reliant Energy’s rate increase here?  He was implying something, I.E., how good (affordable?  don’t go there)  his supposed renewable system and life style is.  Great for Gig wanting to be frugal.  Nothing wrong with that.  Gives him something to do. Just about everything mentioned  in this NG is  heavily depended on fossil fuels. Gig’s solar cooker is one of the exceptions.    Yet you bash and trash fossil fuels so much.  This NG is continually confused between renewable and recycling/frugal/hobby  energy usage  There is a difference. Take your veggie/biodiesel fuels you keep preaching about.  Your fryer oils you collect at your Chinese whatever restaurants and reformulate  is nothing more that a good recycling/frugal act.  Hardly renewable.  Unless your definition says that anytime  there will be a new barrel of trash on the loading docks next week for free is renewable.   I wonder if there is any sort of regulation on the restaurants  business concerning their proper handling of potential hazardous waste disposal?  Ah, yes, used, untested fryer oils fit the bill, or at least in my sector of business it does.   But I should hold my toungue on this (talking about waste stream management) one since we are/shouldn’t(?) be concerned with the enviro as far as this NG is concerned  NO?.   Just letting the stuff go willy nilly to Joe Public seems like a crack in the system to me.  But this is a side topic.    The PV/.wind/battery systems wouldn’t exist without the benefits of mining/milling/processing/distribution which are heavy influence/dependant on fossil fuels for power.   It is correct that the energy from the sun/wind is renewable, but the process/mechanism to convert it into electric power isn’t.   Most of the topics in this NG should really be in alt. homepower or alt. frugal.living. solar water heater panel I suggest you take it there and maybe I would go away. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

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As part of my personal recycling program, after removing metal, glass, plastics, and paper out of my garbage stream, I’ve found almost all the rest can be composted. For a family of 5, our weekly “garbage” to be picked up fits in a single paper grocery bag. being packaging material sensitive when purchasing helps out as well. — Steve Spence

Same here. We generate two plastic grocery bags’ worth of trash each week, for two of us and two cats. That includes the soiled cat litter, garden waste that can’t be composted etc. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip Today, I received a notice from the city that they are now charging new fees to pick up the garbage… they will still pick up one container of garbage, but…. a second container will have to have a yearly sticker on it,  to show that it is paid for, too….. and each bag of garbage, like grass cuttings, will have to have a sticker on it, which can be bought from the local grocery store…. so  these  new  fees are probably due to the hundreds of millions of dollars the city lost when it invested in Enron, and some other energy companies that have gone under, recently…. So, you are right, the utility fees,  in this case a garbage utility fee, will always go up… Gig

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you do both. cut down on your consumption, and the offgrid components become less expensive. why do you have it in for renewables so badly you feel compelled to come to a renewables group and be sarcastic and disagreeable to those who are trying to be self sufficient? especially when you are so often incorrect. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards:solar water heater panel  Everyone go out and spend up front mega bucks for solar panels/converters/batteries/backup generators and totally replace/eliminate all/some appliances for more energy efficient models so they can get off the grid?  Easier solution would be for people to cut back on their usage so they do not have to pay the increase.  Hmmm, throw out the refrigerator like you did and make daily visits to the grocery story for the daily meals.  Throw out the stove too, and spend a few quality hours watching your solar cooker cook each day.  Disconnect the AC too.   Prices have and will climb as time goes on. That is a given. Here in Houston, it was announced today, that Reliant Energy is increasing it electric rate next week… I know that this kind of increase will not matter to those who off the grid… but for those who rely on grid power for electricity, it will be another load on top of the high summer bills, these people already pay… The increase in Electricity rates was approved today by the Texas Public Utility Commission… Gig

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As part of my personal recycling program, after removing metal, glass, plastics, and paper out of my garbage stream, I’ve found almost all the rest can be composted. For a family of 5, our weekly “garbage” to be picked up fits in a single paper grocery bag. being packaging material sensitive when purchasing helps out as well.

You’re right! Frugal living will dovetail nicely with less garbage all the way around. When you think frugally, you can think of lots of ways to reduce garbage in the first place. THINK about how many things around the house you can live without, or what is actually bad for the environment. We stopped using insecticides. We cut our detergent use in half, and only use unscented, uncolored. We don’t use bleach in our laundry, nor fabric softener. We realized good, fresh water was a better drink for us than soda or commercial juice. That move alone eliminated hundreds of aluminum cans we previously had to dispose of every year. We DO compost, and agree: anything that can’t be recycled can be composted. We use cloth shopping bags, and try to reduce our use of plastics before buying the product, so we don’t bring home plastic in the first place. We burn papers, and I confess to burning small amounts of the household plastic that sneaks in. However, we do not have garbage service, and I have not had to order it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/  <snip Today, I received a notice from the city that they are now charging new fees to pick up the garbage… they will still pick up one container of garbage, but…. a second container will have to have a yearly sticker on it,  to show that it is paid for, too….. and each bag of garbage, like grass cuttings, will have to have a sticker on it, which can be bought from the local grocery store…. so  these  new  fees are probably due to the hundreds of millions of dollars the city lost when it invested in Enron, and some other energy companies that have gone under, recently…. So, you are right, the utility fees,  in this case a garbage utility fee, will always go up…solar water heater panel

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As part of my personal recycling program, after removing metal, glass, plastics, and paper out of my garbage stream, I’ve found almost all the rest can be composted. For a family of 5, our weekly “garbage” to be picked up fits in a single paper grocery bag. being packaging material sensitive when purchasing helps out as well. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards: http://www.green-trust.org Renewable Energy Pages – solar water heater panel I received a notice from the city that they are now charging new fees to pick up the garbage… they will still pick up one container of garbage, but…. a second container will have to have a yearly sticker on it,  to show that it is paid for, too….. and each bag of garbage, like grass cuttings, will have to have a sticker on it, which can be bought from the local grocery store…. so  these  new  fees are probably due to the hundreds of millions of dollars the city lost when it invested in Enron, and some other energy companies that have gone under, recently…. So, you are right, the utility fees,  in this case a garbage utility fee, will always go up… solar water heater panel

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Houston has less competition. Up near Nacogdoches  and out towards Lubbuck in areas with with renewable energy plants built and selling the electricity. Instead of talking this stuff written in this thread.The price is going down because of competition and backup generators that can run longer during high usage periods at renewable sources sites like sawmills or chicken farms,Even heard some truckers looking at burning what you haul instead of diesel.(Logs,municiple waste,waste oil&grease,coal,etc.)Electricity is not your only energy cost.

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The increase in Electricity rates was approved today by the Texas Public Utility Commission… Gig Power/Utility deregulation!  :-(  Write your representative in Texas with your concerns — That might do a lot more to help ya than writing this newsgroup You can go to www.firstgov.gov to find out your federal and state representative information if you don’t already have it. I thought Texas, in general, was suppose to be an inexpensive place to live.  If you think utilities are high, what makes it inexpensive?  I saw some company in Texas sell Dome homes solar water heater panel  They are suppose to be more energy efficient. I don’t understand why folks want and are building such huge homes these days. The maintenance, utilities, and cleaning alone are something to consider… not to mention the higher property taxes (unless your state doesn’t have them).  I wanted to purchase a home that was 1500 sq ft or less and the new homes are all 2500 and above. Wow!  I’ve come to the conclusion the only way I’m going to get a small home is to purchase some land and build it myself via a contractor. I keep a spreadsheet with my utility information in it.  If you want to compare — our usage has remained the same, our average annual cost increase has been around 8%.  Currently we pay a fixed charge of appx. $8, plus .0745/khr, plus a fuel adjustment charge of .002460/khr. Texas, is an interesting state %~O  I heard a story on some national news program that there is a guy, who became wealthy on oil, who now plan to work on making water a commodity. I don’t recall the specifics, but he had land that resided over an aquifer and laid pipes to a city in Texas.  Just what we need, an Enron type company, bidding our water supply. Icks! I was at our library not too long ago and the utility company had loaned the library electric meters to loan to residents to checkout electric usage. The 3 things that I experienced were: (1) My new refrigerator wasn’t much better than my old.  So unless your refrigerator is ancient or broke, don’t think buying a new one will save you a lot. The “energy efficiency” ploy, might be more marketing than anything else.  I really had watched the energy usage and energy star efficiency too. (2) My computer seemed to use the most energy when the screen saver was active (even more than when I was actually using the computer) and the least after the power mgmt kicked in (no surprise there). (3) A radio with only a tape player (no clock), nothing else, seemed to use power even though there was nothing on. Things that I thought would consume energy at certain points, didn’t, and things that I was almost sure wouldn’t, did. So for the average person, it’s hard to tell. Bottom line: If you don’t need something plugged in, unplug it.  Turn lights off in rooms when not in use.  I personally shy away from decoration(s) that require energy.  Consider hanging your clothes on the line, rather than using your dryer.  Iron clothes lesssolar water heater panel

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So Gig, did the power go out today (sunday)  as well? I think last sunday is was out for an hour or so…

I was talking about “this” sunday (8-25-02)…To see if your pattern was holding true. How were the temperatures when it was bright and sunny?   Hotter than you know what? Hot as Hades…. it was also like that, today…. and my PV system got a full charge….

Don’t care what your PV system was doing… Was trying to determine what kind of load was being demanded from the grid in your area.  AC is a bigggy. Car crash into a sub station or a limb across a power line could do it too. Of course when the power goes out, there will be houses out of power. That happend here, a couple of times, this last year…

So is it Reliant Energys fault for trees growing and the limbs falling across their lines?  They should and probably do have a tree trimming program, but just how many branches are across their thousands of miles of line? There were numerous people out of power.  Want to blame the delay and length of outage  on the power company? Not really…. I just wanted to have an alternative to the grid, for any natural or man made event that may happen in the future…

Fair enough.  If you are willing to spend the time and money to safe guard (install PV) against a few hours of outages per year, that is your call. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last year, when Tropical Storm Allison came over, 250,000 people were out of power, some for several days… and a part of the grid system that was blown down, and had to be rebuilt… Although these outages did not happen at my house since I was mostly off grid… they did  happen to some relatives who were on the grid… Hmmm, did you, or did you not have grid power in your neighborhood?  I know you are afraid to pull the security plug on the grid connect.  Just not 100% confident of your off grid setup? I am gaining experience… and want to make all the mistakes now, before I go the next step… I use the grid as a back-up, just in case I have overlooked something…

Sure,  fair enough as well.  Say, just how many screw ups  (with your system) which caused power outages have you managed to pull off?  Do you have a better/worse batting average than Reliant Energy? You are dependent on the grid.  When you walk to your local (grid dependent) grocery store for your daily food, you are relying on the grid. That’s true.. but I was surprised to find out, that the local Costco grocery store, has a big generator in the back of the store… in case of any outage… they make their own power…. I guess it’s the sign of the times… since Allison hit last year, many large grocery stores have installed large backup generators… so they will probably remain open, during the next power outage…this growth in backup power, has also affected some of the downtown offices, which have quietly, set up their own power generating capabilities… solar water heater panel

OK.  Dollars speak.  Lost revenue is worse than their capital outlay for the bkup system.  Bet you they are only setup for short periods of generation time.  Week or less?  Of course, if the community is out of power for longer than a week, then it has more serious problems than a tree limb or two. Nearly everything else in your life, is dependent on the grid.  So in conclusion, you and me and about everyone else is dependent on the grid for everything we consume and do.  Your little homepower setup  just smooths out some of the unexpected power spikes/failures of the grid. With the generators going in at large volume establiishments, we are a little ‘less’ dependent on the grid, than two years, ago…

Still dependent.  Your “little” less is kind of like being a little pregnent.  Either you are or you are not. And there are small changes in life here…. all the school traffic signs are now solar powered…. they charge themselves up, and come on when a signal is sent over the air… they blink when school opens in the morning, and when school lets out, in the afternoon…

That is nice your community has the bucks for doing it.  How are your taxes? Rather high?  Just takes money and I hope you do not complain about your taxes cause part of it is going for solar power  traffic signs. Of course there is a sector of society that a 5.8%   increase in power will be a  ”major/fatal”  burden.,  Just think where these people would be sitting if the power price went from today’s  (more so affordable) prices to a ten fold or more increase? Today, I received a notice from the city that they are now charging new fees to pick up the garbage… they will still pick up one container of garbage, but…. a second container will have to have a yearly sticker on it,  to show that it is paid for, too….. and each bag of garbage, like grass cuttings, will have to have a sticker on it, which can be bought from the local grocery store…. so  these  new  fees are probably due to the hundreds of millions of dollars the city lost when it invested in Enron, and some other energy companies that have gone under, recently….

Could be they are paying higher salaries, energy bills, landfill development and just about everything else.  Does your city invest in outside companies? If they do, they are collecting too much from the citizens. So, you are right, the utility fees,  in this case a garbage utility fee, will always go up…

Just about everything else as well.  Especially salary.

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… a low cost circulating water system that can fit on a rooftop. If it were based on nothing more than some black plywood with black rubber hose running throught it, this would be quite reasonable in cost.

Sounds inefficient, if the sun that falls on the plywood can only heat the hose via hot air. We might bury the hose in a better heat conductor like concrete, but that also adds thermal mass which can take a long time to warm up in the morning. That decreases efficiency. We might cover a dark asphalt-shingled roof with a layer of clear corrugated polycarbonate plastic, held down like some satellite dish mounts with a few cement blocks and ropes (to avoid leaky roof   …the water on the north sloping roof flows slowly in an almost   perfect thin sheet from top to bottom. The granules of sand in the   asphalt shingles help to spread the water evenly and to retard the   rate of flow. If the water covers the whole collecting surface we don’t have a “sideways heat conduction problem.” But why put the collector on the roof? That invites leaks and broken legs and requires more pumping power than a collector on the ground. We can also store lots of hot water easily on the ground… solar water heater panel

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So Gig, did the power go out today (sunday)  as well?

I think last sunday is was out for an hour or so… How were the temperatures when it was bright and sunny?   Hotter than you know what?

Hot as Hades…. it was also like that, today…. and my PV system got a full charge…. Car crash into a sub station or a limb across a power line could do it too. Of course when the power goes out, there will be houses out of power.

That happend here, a couple of times, this last year… There were numerous people out of power.  Want to blame the delay and length of outage  on the power company?

Not really…. I just wanted to have an alternative to the grid, for any natural or man made event that may happen in the future… Last year, when Tropical Storm Allison came over, 250,000 people were out of power, some for several days… and a part of the grid system that was blown down, and had to be rebuilt… Although these outages did not happen at my house since I was mostly off grid… they did  happen to some relatives who were on the grid… Hmmm, did you, or did you not have grid power in your neighborhood?  I know you are afraid to pull the security plug on the grid connect.  Just not 100% confident of your off grid setup? solar water heater panel

I am gaining experience… and want to make all the mistakes now, before I go the next step… I use the grid as a back-up, just in case I have overlooked something… You are dependent on the grid.  When you walk to your local (grid dependent) grocery store for your daily food, you are relying on the grid.

That’s true.. but I was surprised to find out, that the local Costco grocery store, has a big generator in the back of the store… in case of any outage… they make their own power…. I guess it’s the sign of the times… since Allison hit last year, many large grocery stores have installed large backup generators… so they will probably remain open, during the next power outage…this growth in backup power, has also affected some of the downtown offices, which have quietly, set up their own power generating capabilities… Nearly everything else in your life, is dependent on the grid.  So in conclusion, you and me and about everyone else is dependent on the grid for everything we consume and do.  Your little homepower setup  just smooths out some of the unexpected power spikes/failures of the grid.

With the generators going in at large volume establiishments, we are a little ‘less’ dependent on the grid, than two years, ago… And there are small changes in life here…. all the school traffic signs are now solar powered…. they charge themselves up, and come on when a signal is sent over the air… they blink when school opens in the morning, and when school lets out, in the afternoon… Of course there is a sector of society that a 5.8%   increase in power will be a  ”major/fatal”  burden.,  Just think where these people would be sitting if the power price went from today’s  (more so affordable) prices to a ten fold or more increase?

Today, I received a notice from the city that they are now charging new fees to pick up the garbage… they will still pick up one container of garbage, but…. a second container will have to have a yearly sticker on it,  to show that it is paid for, too….. and each bag of garbage, like grass cuttings, will have to have a sticker on it, which can be bought from the local grocery store…. so  these  new  fees are probably due to the hundreds of millions of dollars the city lost when it invested in Enron, and some other energy companies that have gone under, recently…. So, you are right, the utility fees,  in this case a garbage utility fee, will always go up… Gig

Response:

One pattern I do see, is that the grid went out twice, three Sundays ago… and it was a bright and sunny day…. two Sundays ago, when the rainstorm came over… the grid went out for a hour or so… along with 5000 other homes…

So Gig, did the power go out today (sunday)  as well?  How were the temperatures when it was bright and sunny?   Hotter than you know what? Hmmm, everyone home with their AC turned to max?  Could that have done it? Car crash into a sub station or a limb across a power line could do it too. Of course when the power goes out, there will be houses out of power. Last Sunday, and again on Thursday, the grid went out, when the big thunderstorms came over… about 5000 homes were out of power for a few hours…

Say Gig, there was an outage in our area this summer when a car crashed into a substation and caused the system to trip.  The power company had previously (earlier in the forest fire season)  disconnected the automatic resets because when the resets engage, a small amount (or potential for sparking) of sparking could occur.  A crew was dispatched to check out the entire line and manually reset.  Of course this took a few hours to do but it prevented or lessened the potential for a major rip roaring forest fire. There were numerous people out of power.  Want to blame the delay and length of outage  on the power company? Last year, when Tropical Storm Allison came over, 250,000 people were out of power, some for several days… and a part of the grid system that was blown down, and had to be rebuilt… Although these outages did not happen at my house since I was mostly off grid… they did  happen to some relatives who were on the grid…

Hmmm, did you, or did you not have grid power in your neighborhood?  I know you are afraid to pull the security plug on the grid connect.  Just not 100% confident of your off grid setup? Most people have emergency flashlights, and candles… it is standard fare,  here in the Gulf Coast (Houston),  and I still have my old  kerosine storm lantern…. mostly used as a  nostalgic  decoration now…. but…. what I object to,  is being totally dependent to the grid….

You are dependent on the grid.  When you walk to your local (grid dependent) grocery store for your daily food, you are relying on the grid.  When you gas up your car, you bet your booties that you are dependent on the grid to power those refineries and pumps.  Nearly everything else in your life, is dependent on the grid.  So in conclusion, you and me and about everyone else is dependent on the grid for everything we consume and do.  Your little homepower setup  just smooths out some of the unexpected power spikes/failures of the grid. Vicious cycle here. Yes, the harder one works, and the more he earns, the higher taxes and utility costs seem to get..and these days…. with the failure of Enron, Dynegy, El Paso Energy, and a dozen other, not so well known corporate failures, the prospects for higher wages (here) is not that promising…. especially with the savings and investments of thousands of former employees being wiped out by these failures… so, even  a 5.8 % increase in electrical costs, might be an unwanted burden, to some people…

Hmmm, probably when one looks at the average household income  of today vs 10 years ago, it is higher today.   Since roughly 40-50% of the cost of doing business is paying employees salaries/benefits and such, guess what? When the work force receives more, then the cost goes up and so  the prices must be increased.  Of course there is a sector of society that a 5.8% increase in power will be a  ”major/fatal”  burden.,  Just think where these people would be sitting if the power price went from today’s  (more so affordable) prices to a ten fold or more increase?  That is what the enviros want when they shut down the fossil fuel electric generation facilities.  If the poor can not afford a 5.8% increase, they sure in the heck can not afford to go out and purchase $10-30K worth of renewable electric generation equipment for their private use. solar water heater panel

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The increase in Electricity rates was approved today by the Texas Public Utility Commission… Texas, is an interesting state %~O  I heard a story on some national news program that there is a guy, who became wealthy on oil, who now plan to work on making water a commodity. I don’t recall the specifics, but he had land that resided over an aquifer and laid pipes to a city in Texas.  Just what we need, an Enron type company, bidding our water supply. Icks!

He may be right…. our aquifers are running out of water…. we use surface water from lakes and streams, but that is limited too…. those people who have individual wells seem to do OK…. and some people, who have a rainwater catchment system, do OK too… I set my small system up in 2000, and have never run out of rainwater… That same year, I set up my PV system, and have been mostly off grid ever since…. I changed from a power guzzling desktop computer to this laptop, which did cut my power usage a lot… solar water heater panel

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Prices have and will climb as time goes on. That is a given. Another good reason to buy a PV system for your grid-tied home.  Fixed electricity prices for the next 20 years. Also huge capital outlay for a backup/supplementary system to compliment your grid-tie.

Hmmm… unless someone comes up with a low cost circulating water system that can fit on a rooftop. If it were based on nothing more than some black plywood with black rubber hose running throught it, this would be quite reasonable in cost. No PV required. You could heat your own water, the highest single charge on all electric bills. Additionally, with your solar water heater, all the heat would get siphoned off into the hot water heater. This means your house will be a lot cooler, and won’t require as much AC. GREAT for Texas and the rest of the SW US.  If you set the money you would have spent on a PV system – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – aside, and use the interest earned from it, you would probably cover the rising electric cost.  Your PV system isn’t exactly a fixed cost either. Batteries for one do not last 20 years.  Seems converters have been know to fail from time to time as well.   Of course the equation changes if you are fortunate to have a program where your PV system is tied into the grid and you get some type of credit for power generation.  Easiest solution to the rising cost is to use less, or just be less wasteful.  Toss that big screen out the door and settle for a 17″ model. So Gig (anyone else) ,solar water heater panel  how much  of an increase will the average bill be after this rate hike?  Don’t forget, most working people get some sort of pay raise each year as well to cover these ever rising cost of living. Hmmm, see a pattern here?  Working folks get a pay/benefits raise nearly each year, which then raises the cost of doing business they work for, which is then absorbed for some period of time by that business, and then there becomes a point where  the business  that have experienced these higher cost of doing business has to raise their  prices up to pay for the increase. Vicious cycle here.

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The increase in Electricity rates was approved today by the Texas Public Utility Commission… Gig

Power/Utility deregulation!  :-(  Write your representative in Texas with your concerns — That might do a lot more to help ya than writing this newsgroup You can go to www.firstgov.gov to find out your federal and state representative information if you don’t already have it. I thought Texas, in general, was suppose to be an inexpensive place to live.  If you think utilities are high, what makes it inexpensive?  I saw some company in Texas sell Dome homes (http://www.monolithicdome.com/).  They are suppose to be more energy efficient. I don’t understand why folks want and are building such huge homes these days. The maintenance, utilities, and cleaning alone are something to consider… not to mention the higher property taxes (unless your state doesn’t have them).  I wanted to purchase a home that was 1500 sq ft or less and the new homes are all 2500 and above. Wow!  I’ve come to the conclusion the only way I’m going to get a small home is to purchase some land and build it myself via a contractor. I keep a spreadsheet with my utility information in it.  If you want to compare — our usage has remained the same, our average annual cost increase has been around 8%.  Currently we pay a fixed charge of appx. $8, plus .0745/khr, plus a fuel adjustment charge of .002460/khr. Texas, is an interesting state %~O  I heard a story on some national news program that there is a guy, who became wealthy on oil, who now plan to work on making water a commodity. solar water heater panel I don’t recall the specifics, but he had land that resided over an aquifer and laid pipes to a city in Texas.  Just what we need, an Enron type company, bidding our water supply. Icks! I was at our library not too long ago and the utility company had loaned the library electric meters to loan to residents to checkout electric usage. The 3 things that I experienced were: (1) My new refrigerator wasn’t much better than my old.  So unless your refrigerator is ancient or broke, don’t think buying a new one will save you a lot. The “energy efficiency” ploy, might be more marketing than anything else.  I really had watched the energy usage and energy star efficiency too. (2) My computer seemed to use the most energy when the screen saver was active (even more than when I was actually using the computer) and the least after the power mgmt kicked in (no surprise there). (3) A radio with only a tape player (no clock), nothing else, seemed to use power even though there was nothing on. Things that I thought would consume energy at certain points, didn’t, and things that I was almost sure wouldn’t, did. So for the average person, it’s hard to tell. Bottom line: If you don’t need something plugged in, unplug it.  Turn lights off in rooms when not in use.  I personally shy away from decoration(s) that require energy.  Consider hanging your clothes on the line, rather than using your dryer.  Iron clothes less DJ

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Another good reason to buy a PV system for your grid-tied home.  Fixed electricity prices for the next 20 years. Also huge capital outlay for a backup/supplementary system to compliment your grid-tie.  If you set the money you would have spent on a PV system aside, and use the interest earned from it, you would probably cover the rising electric cost. So Gig (anyone else) , how much  of an increase will the average bill be after this rate hike?  Don’t forget, most working people get some sort of pay raise each year as well to cover these ever rising cost of living. Hmmm, see a pattern here? solar water heater panel

One pattern I do see, is that the grid went out twice, three Sundays ago… and it was a bright and sunny day…. two Sundays ago, when the rainstorm came over… the grid went out for a hour or so… along with 5000 other homes… Last Sunday, and again on Thursday, the grid went out, when the big thunderstorms came over… about 5000 homes were out of power for a few hours… Last year, when Tropical Storm Allison came over, 250,000 people were out of power, some for several days… and a part of the grid system that was blown down, and had to be rebuilt… Although these outages did not happen at my house since I was mostly off grid… they did  happen to some relatives who were on the grid… Most people have emergency flashlights, and candles… it is standard fare,  here in the Gulf Coast (Houston),  and I still have my old  kerosine storm lantern…. mostly used as a  nostalgic  decoration now…. but…. what I object to,  is being totally dependent to the grid…. Vicious cycle here.

Yes, the harder one works, and the more he earns, the higher taxes and utility costs seem to get..and these days…. with the failure of Enron, Dynegy, El Paso Energy, and a dozen other, not so well known corporate failures, the prospects for higher wages (here) is not that promising…. especially with the savings and investments of thousands of former employees being wiped out by these failures… so, even  a 5.8 % increase in electrical costs,solar water heater panel  might be an unwanted burden, to some people… Gig

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How much $$$$$ ?????? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here in Houston, it was announced today, that Reliant Energy is increasing it electric rate next week… I know that this kind of increase will not matter to those who off the grid… but for those who rely on grid power for electricity, it will be another load on top of the high summer bills, these people already pay… The increase in Electricity rates was approved today by the Texas Public Utility Commission… Gig

solar water heater panel

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Prices have and will climb as time goes on. That is a given.

Another good reason to buy a PV system for your grid-tied home.  Fixed electricity prices for the next 20 years.

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Prices have and will climb as time goes on. That is a given. Another good reason to buy a PV system for your grid-tied home.  Fixed electricity prices for the next 20 years.

Also huge capital outlay for a backup/supplementary system to compliment your grid-tie.  If you set the money you would have spent on a PV system aside, and use the interest earned from it, you would probably cover the rising electric cost.  Your PV system isn’t exactly a fixed cost either. Batteries for one do not last 20 years.  Seems converters have been know to fail from time to time as well.   Of course the equation changes if you are fortunate to have a program where your PV system is tied into the grid and you get some type of credit for power generation.  Easiest solution to the rising cost is to use less, or just be less wasteful.  Toss that big screen out the door and settle for a 17″ model. So Gig (anyone else) , how much  of an increase will the average bill be after this rate hike?  Don’t forget, most working people get some sort of pay raise each year as well to cover these ever rising cost of living. Hmmm, see a pattern here?  Working folks get a pay/benefits raise nearly each year, which then raises the cost of doing business they work for, which is then absorbed for some period of time by that business, and then there becomes a point where  the business  that have experienced these higher cost of doing business has to raise their  prices up to pay for the increase. Vicious cycle here.

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OK!!   So what is your point?  Everyone go out and spend up front mega bucks for solar panels/converters/batteries/backup generators and totally replace/eliminate all/some appliances for more energy efficient models so they can get off the grid?  Easier solution would be for people to cut back on their usage so they do not have to pay the increase.  Hmmm, throw out the refrigerator like you did and make daily visits to the grocery story for the daily meals.  Throw out the stove too, and spend a few quality hours watching your solar cooker cook each day.  Disconnect the AC too.   Prices have and will climb as time goes on. That is a given. solar water heater panel

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here in Houston, it was announced today, that Reliant Energy is increasing it electric rate next week… I know that this kind of increase will not matter to those who off the grid… but for those who rely on grid power for electricity, it will be another load on top of the high summer bills, these people already pay… The increase in Electricity rates was approved today by the Texas Public Utility Commission…solar water heater panel

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Here in Houston, it was announced today, that Reliant Energy is increasing it electric rate next week… I know that this kind of increase will not matter to those who off the grid… but for those who rely on grid power for electricity, it will be another load on top of the high summer bills, these people already pay… The increase in Electricity rates was approved today by the Texas Public Utility Commission… solar water heater panel

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