Question:

I live in Canada where there is plenty of servamatic solar water heater snow on the ground half of the year.servamatic solar water heater I think this would be a good source of water, but I’m not sure about how to go about it (I’d like to melt the snow in cold temperatures without using fuel). I thought of maybe painting the outside of a 20 Litre plastic water container flat black. Would the snow inside melt if left in direct sun? Is there a better way to get water from snow? Thanks. servamatic solar water heater

Response:

David, hello, servamatic solar water heater First, it is always more efficient to use ice than snow. Less energy is required in order to melt it. But I would be carefull. I wouldn’t drink either running water nor water from melted ice from any creek or river. (Fear of drinking water polluted by heavy metals). Also, I would boil that water in a pressure cooker for at least 20 min. (I don’t trust those filtering devices). When I was in Hungary I saw many farmers that had 20 liter’s drum painted in black standing outside. Some even had aluminium reflector’s.servamatic solar water heater I guess that is where they get their hot water from. Although, temp. in Hungary is not nearly as cold as here. I have seen an device from Holland. Basically it is a transparent plastic pipe about 2 inch in diameter and 6 feet long. Inside, there is a 1/2 inch copper pipe 6 feet 4 inches long (2 inches sticks out at both end). The plastic pipe is sealed at both end and the copper pipe is sealed at one end. All air is removed in the plastic tube, a vacuum is created. Basically, you pour your melted snow or ice water in the copper tube, screw on a copper plug and stick this in the sun. Very hot boiling water within 2 minutes, even in cold temperature.servamatic solar water heater

Response:

…I’d like to melt the snow in cold temperatures without using fuel.

Seems like an uninsulated underground container could do this. It seems to me that it would take the same amount of energy to melt snow or ice, about 144 Btu/pound. servamatic solar water heater

Response:

…I’d like to melt the snow in cold temperatures without using fuel. Seems like an uninsulated underground container could do this. It seems to me that it would take the same amount of energy to melt snow or ice, about 144 Btu/pound. servamatic solar water heater

Agreed Nick, the only thing I can think of is if the snow were allowed to fall on a large black surface and drained off as it melted… It might take longer for the diffused light passing through the snow to start melting than if it were transparent ice.   Here in Oklahoma (USA) we get freezing rain which puts a nice ice glaze over everything. BTW) My 3ft x 4ft solar collector (parabolic trough) project is coming          along quite nicely.  servamatic solar water heater

Response:

… i live is upper north dakota and we have alot of snow too.  i thought about building a small green house about 6′x6′.  just big enough so i can take some snow or ice and melt it.  i might use that super strong plastic.  you can purchase a huge roll for about 10.00 dollars.servamatic solar water heater  if you have a fire or propane burner, you can melt it and then boil it.  just make sure no animals or people contaminate the snow.

Response:

: I live in Canada where there is plenty of snow on the ground half of the : year. I think this would be a good source of water, but I’m not sure about : how to go about it (I’d like to melt the snow in cold temperatures without : using fuel). I thought of maybe painting the outside of a 20 Litre plastic : water container flat black. Would the snow inside melt if left in direct : sun? Is there a better way to get water from snow? Thanks. I think, the heat generated mainly by the nuclear explosions, will be just fine to acomplish the task of melting snow.servamatic solar water heater..

Response:

Forget it. 1. It takes too much heat; not enough available from a practical solar collector. 2. It takes too much snow, too much handling. 3. The resulting water is utility grade only,         not for drinking, boil before using. Do you think this is why there are no commercial systems? Of course, snow melt can be used for emergency use.servamatic solar water heater  also a Canadian

Response:

: I live in Canada where there is plenty of snow on the ground half of the : year. I think this would be a good source of water, but I’m not sure about : how to go about it (I’d like to melt the snow in cold temperatures without : servamatic solar water heaterusing fuel). I thought of maybe painting the outside of a 20 Litre plastic : water container flat black. Would the snow inside melt if left in direct : sun? Is there a better way to get water from snow? Thanks.

May I offer a suggestion ahead of time? Fill a 5 gallon bucket or your bath tub with snow, and let it melt. Look at the bottom of your container. . . Better get some type of filter too. To know wether you get enough sunlight to melt the snow, why not put a thermometer inside your car and see if it gets above freezing sitting in the parking lot all day. Then just set your buckets inside your car. servamatic solar water heater

Response:

Just a short note here, please make sure that the flat black paint is non-toxic.  It might be worth while to check out a dark colored foodgrade mylar bag to line water container.  However I believe it would be better to have the dark color on the outside.  Something to try (Now not later) is arranging some sort of long low food grade container angled to meet the sun or with a lid angled to meet the sun much like a solar cooker and see how that would work.  I’ve never tried, just a thought.  There’s lots of info on solar cookers and how to build one yourself on the net to give you some ideas. Whatever you do, if you get water, make sure you boil it after or run through a special filter to kill organisms. servamatic solar water heater : I live in Canada where there is plenty of snow on the ground half of the : year. I think this would be a good source of water, but I’m not sure about : how to go about it (I’d like to melt the snow in cold temperatures without : using fuel). I thought of maybe painting the outside of a 20 Litre plastic : water container flat black. Would the snow inside melt if left in direct : sun? Is there a better way to get water from snow? Thanks.

Response:

I live in Canada where there is plenty of snow on the ground half of the year. I think this would be a good source of water, but I’m not sure about how to go about it (I’d like to melt the snow in cold temperatures without using fuel). I thought of maybe painting the outside of a 20 Litre plastic water container flat black. Would the snow inside melt if left in direct sun? Is there a better way to get water from snow? Thanks.

A real good way to do it would be with PVC pipes, a south facing roof or slope, and non-toxic flat black paint. This is an efficient solar water heater. If you took the tubes and had a hose and nozzle on the low end of each with a filtering mechanism, you could simply have it on tap. To actually melt snow, a good way to do it would be with heavy duty black plastic garbage bags. Simply take the snow, pack it in the bags, set them upright in the sun under southern exposure or in the open, and tie them up. The water will melt in the bags, and you can carry it in buckets up to the PVC pipes to collect and heat. Simple! It would probably be easier if you had a filtration system that you could strain the water through before putting it in the pipes, but no one’s perfect. Besides, after the first month or so if it goes down in the worst possible way, there won’t be any more industrial factories running to put a lot of nasty stuff in the air for bad precipitation. Well, the soot thrown up by the funeral pyres of cities would be rather bad, but that’d only last a couple days or so for each city. Fallout from that would be limited. By February, we’d be fine. Just hope there ain’t a nuclear meltdown… (“Hmmm. Advantage, my night vision is no longer an issue. Disadvantage, my skin color is now glowing neon yellow…)

Some great ideas here but the use of heavy duty black garbage bags is considered by many to be not a good idea because of insecticides and deodorizers in the plastic. Cael Instant Knowledge http://home.istar.ca/~cael/ I live in Canada where there is plenty of snow on the ground half of the year. I think this would be a good source of water, but I’m not sure about how to go about it…

A real good way to do it would be with PVC pipes, a south facing roof or slope, and non-toxic flat black paint. This is an efficient solar water heater. If you took the tubes and had a hose and nozzle on the low end of each with a filtering mechanism, you could simply have it on tap. To actually melt snow, a good way to do it would be with heavy duty black plastic garbage bags. Simply take the snow, pack it in the bags, set them upright in the sun under southern exposure or in the open, and tie them up. The water will melt in the bags, and you can carry it in buckets up to the PVC pipes to collect and heat.

Response:

I wouldn’t recommend using garbage bags to put anything in that you’re planning on consumming.  Garbage bags are treated with pesticides, for obvious reasons.servamatic solar water heater-To actually melt snow, a good way to do it would be with heavy duty black plastic garbage bags. Simply take the snow, pack it in the bags, set them upright in the sun under southern exposure or in the open, and tie them up. The water will melt in the bags, and you can carry it in buckets up to the PVC pipes to collect and heat.

Response:

On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 servamatic solar water heater, hello, I live in Canada too. First, it is always more efficient to use ice than snow. Less energy is required in order to melt it. But I would be carefull. I wouldn’t drink either running water nor water from melted ice from any creek or river. (Fear of drinking water polluted by heavy metals). Also, I would boil that water in a pressure cooker for at least 20 min. (I don’t trust those filtering devices). When I was in Hungary I saw many farmers that had 20 liter’s drum painted in black standing outside. Some even had aluminium reflector’s. I guess that is where they get their hot water from. Although, temp. in Hungary is not nearly as cold as here. I have seen an device from Holland. Basically it is a transparent plastic pipe about 2 inch in diameter and 6 feet long. Inside, there is a 1/2 inch copper pipe 6 feet 4 inches long (2 inches sticks out at both end). The plastic pipe is sealed at both end and the copper pipe is sealed at one end. All air is removed in the plastic tube, a vacuum is created. Basically, you pour your melted snow or ice water in the copper tube, screw on a copper plug and stick this in the sun. Very hot boiling water within 2 minutes, even in cold temperature.

Response:

What if it never snows ? servamatic solar water heater, I live in Canada too. First, it is always more efficient to use ice than snow. Less energy is required in order to melt it. But I would be carefull. I wouldn’t drink either running water nor water from melted ice from any creek or river. (Fear of drinking water polluted by heavy metals). Also, I would boil that water in a pressure cooker for at least 20 min. (I don’t trust those filtering devices). When I was in Hungary I saw many farmers that had 20 liter’s drum painted in black standing outside. Some even had aluminium reflector’s. I guess that is where they get their hot water from. Although, temp. in Hungary is not nearly as cold as here. I have seen an device from Holland. Basically it is a transparent plastic pipe about 2 inch in diameter and 6 feet long. Inside, there is a 1/2 inch copper pipe 6 feet 4 inches long (2 inches sticks out at both end). The plastic pipe is sealed at both end and the copper pipe is sealed at one end. All air is removed in the plastic tube, a vacuum is created. Basically, you pour your melted snow or ice water in the copper tube, screw on a copper plug and stick this in the sun. Very hot boiling water within 2 minutes, even in cold temperature.

Response:

What if it never snows ? On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 . Snipped I @0 minutes in a pressure cooker sure seems excessive… Is this right? Steve

No, that’s 20 minutes in a regular pot at a rolling boil. Some authorities (Red Cross, CDC, etc. give the range from 10 to 20 minutes).  Make sure any container you pour the water in has been decontaminated by using boiling water first. (Eg. teacup – clean first with boiling water, not regular water) Cael Instant knowledge :

Response:

Water boils at 212 degrees Farenheit at sea level, which is well in excess of the 180 degrees needed to guarantee the demise of every living thing in it. A rolling boil is simply a visual signal to the camper that his water has become safe to drink — better than sticking your finger into the pot.  The only reason to cover water being boiled is to compensate for lower atmosperic pressures above 5,000 feet or so, where water may boil at 150 degrees.  As for “those filtering devices,” I’ve been using and field testing pump filters from MSR, SweetWater, and PUR for 2 years, as well as the new squeeze- bottle filters from Seychelle (very cool), and I love ‘em.  I can recall straining out the sediment and wigglers of swamp water through a dog rag before boiling it for drinking, and a filter is far more convenient.  Iodine, it was discovered 2 years ago, won’t kill cryptosporidium or the newly-discovered cyclospora parasites, so I’ve abandoned using that as a purifier.  The scientific credibility of these filters and purifiers is certified to governmental standards, but if you want to see the difference yourself, just taste the water from your own tap, then taste the same water after it has been filtered.  That’s all it will take to convince you that one of these filters belongs in your survival kit. Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer www.amazon.com   www.barnesandnoble.com   www.borders.com                                            On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 Also, I would boil that water in a pressure cooker for at least 20 min. (I don’t trust those filtering devices).

Response:

Water boils at 212 degrees Farenheit at sea level, which is well in excess of the 180 degrees needed to guarantee the demise of every living thing in it.

You might want to check your facts on this. Ask a doctor why they use an autoclave instead of boiling water, or ask someone who does home canning why they use a pressure cooker.

Response:

at around 5200 feet is where water boils at 180 F.servamatic solar water heater  Water boils at 212 degrees Farenheit at sea level, which is well in excess of the 180 degrees needed to guarantee the demise of every living thing in it. A rolling boil is simply a visual signal to the camper that his water has become safe to drink — better than sticking your finger into the pot. The only reason to cover water being boiled is to compensate for lower atmosperic pressures above 5,000 feet or so, where water may boil at 150 degrees. As for “those filtering devices,” I’ve been using and field testing pump filters from MSR, SweetWater, and PUR for 2 years, as well as the new squeeze- bottle filters from Seychelle (very cool), and I love ‘em.  I can recall straining out the sediment and wigglers of swamp water through a dog rag before boiling it for drinking, and a filter is far more convenient.  Iodine, it was discovered 2 years ago, won’t kill cryptosporidium or the newly-discovered cyclospora parasites, so I’ve abandoned using that as a purifier.  The scientific credibility of these filters and purifiers is certified to governmental standards, but if you want to see the difference yourself, just taste the water from your own tap, then taste the same water after it has been filtered. That’s all it will take to convince you that one of these filters belongs in your survival kit.servamatic solar water heater

Response:

Maybe, if you guys get to much snow up there, you could send some of it down here to texas.  we might need it for drinking water later on this year.  hehe servamatic solar water heaterat around 5200 feet is where water boils at 180 F. Water boils at 212 degrees Farenheit at sea level, which is well in excess of the 180 degrees needed to guarantee the demise of every living thing in it. A rolling boil is simply a visual signal to the camper that his water has become safe to drink — better than sticking your finger into the pot. The only reason to cover water being boiled is to compensate for lower atmosperic pressures above 5,000 feet or so, where water may boil at 150 degrees. As for “those filtering devices,” I’ve been using and field testing pump filters from MSR, SweetWater, and PUR for 2 years, as well as the new squeeze- bottle filters from Seychelle (very cool), and I love ‘em.  I can recall straining out the sediment and wigglers of swamp water through a dog rag before boiling it for drinking, and a filter is far more convenient.  Iodine, it was discovered 2 years ago, won’t kill cryptosporidium or the newly-discovered cyclospora parasites, so I’ve abandoned using that as a purifier.  The scientific credibility of these filters and purifiers is certified to governmental standards, but if you want to see the difference yourself, just taste the water from your own tap, then taste the same water after it has been filtered. That’s all it will take to convince you that one of these filters belongs in your survival kit. servamatic solar water heater

Response:

at around 5200 feet is where water boils at 180 F.

Doubt it.  I grew up around 5000ft, and never noticed that dramatic decline.  Also see http://west.uwyo.edu/food/Publications/AltAdjust.htm “High altitude means lower air pressure, which decreases water’s boiling temperature from 212F at sea level to 203F at 5,000 feet and to just 199F at 7,200 feet.” So to extrapolate, that is about 1F/600ft.  212-180=32F, or 19200ft.  I don’t camp that high.  (I’m sure that isn’t accurate, maybe ballpark?) Water boils at 212 degrees Farenheit at sea level, which is well in excess of the 180 degrees needed to guarantee the demise of every living thing in it. A rolling boil is simply a visual signal to the camper that his water has become safe to drink — better than sticking your finger into the pot. The atmosperic pressures above 5,000 feet or so, where water may boil at 150 degrees. As

Needless to say, 150F at 5000ft???  The water heater ran that hot! Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer

Better brush up on vapor pressure as it relates to boiling!

Response:

Oops sorry. I’ ve been studying thermodynamics and got so used to SI units that I forget to convert sometimes.  It is approximately 5200 METERS that water will boil at around 180 F. That does equate to around 17,000 ft.

servamatic solar water heaterat around 5200 feet is where water boils at 180 F. message Water boils at 212 degrees Farenheit at sea level, which is well in excess of the 180 degrees needed to guarantee the demise of every living thing in it. A rolling boil is simply a visual signal to the camper that his water has become safe to drink — better than sticking your finger into the pot. The only reason to cover water being boiled is to compensate for lower atmosperic pressures above 5,000 feet or so, where water may boil at 150 degrees. As for “those filtering devices,” I’ve been using and field testing pump filters from MSR, SweetWater, and PUR for 2 years, as well as the new squeeze- bottle filters from Seychelle (very cool), and I love ‘em.  I can recall straining out the sediment and wigglers of swamp water through a dog rag before boiling it for drinking, and a filter is far more convenient.  Iodine, it was discovered 2 years ago, won’t kill cryptosporidium or the newly-discovered cyclospora parasites, so I’ve abandoned using that as a purifier.  The scientific credibility of these filters and purifiers is certified to governmental standards, but if you want to see the difference yourself, just taste the water from your own tap, then taste the same water after it has been filtered. That’s all it will take to convince you that one of these filters belongs in your survival kit. Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer www.amazon.com   www.barnesandnoble.com   www.borders.com On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 Also, I would boil that water in a pressure cooker for at least 20 min. (I don’t trust those filtering devices).

Response:

Maybe, if you guys get to much snow up there, you could send some of it down here to texas.  we might need it for drinking water later on this year.  hehe at around 5200 feet is where water boils at 180 F.

1== Might have to challenge this one.  At 5200 feet,  pressure should be around 24.58 inches of mercury, and boiling point about 202 deg F. 2== To get the boiling point down as low as 180 F., I would estimate that the required altitude would be around 19,500 feet.   3== Who agrees? ~ larryn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Water boils at 212 degrees Farenheit at sea level, which is well in excess of the 180 degrees needed to guarantee the demise of every living thing in it. A rolling boil is simply a visual signal to the camper that his water has become safe to drink — better than sticking your finger into the pot. The only reason to cover water being boiled is to compensate for lower atmosperic pressures above 5,000 feet or so, where water may boil at 150 degrees. As for “those filtering devices,” I’ve been using and field testing pump filters from MSR, SweetWater, and PUR for 2 years, as well as the new squeeze- bottle filters from Seychelle (very cool), and I love ‘em.  I can recall straining out the sediment and wigglers of swamp water through a dog rag before boiling it for drinking, and a filter is far more convenient.  Iodine, it was discovered 2 years ago, won’t kill cryptosporidium or the newly-discovered cyclospora parasites, so I’ve abandoned using that as a purifier.  The scientific credibility of these filters and purifiers is certified to governmental standards, but if you want to see the difference yourself, just taste the water from your own tap, then taste the same water after it has been filtered. That’s all it will take to convince you that one of these filters belongs in your survival kit. Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer www.amazon.com   www.barnesandnoble.com   www.borders.com On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 Also, I would boil that water in a pressure cooker for at least 20 min. (I don’t trust those filtering devices). @0 minutes in a pressure cooker sure seems excessive… Is this right? Steve www.amazon.com  www.barnesandnoble.com  www.borders.com

Response:

Once upon a time,I found a good 1st approx.for finding atm. pressure as (f) elevation in a solar eng.fund. book by Peter Lunde. servamatic solar water heater. I’ ve been studying thermodynamics and got so used to SI units that I forget to convert sometimes.  It is approximately 5200 METERS that water will boil at around 180 F. That does equate to around 17,000 ft. at around 5200 feet is where water boils at 180 F. message Water boils at 212 degrees Farenheit at sea level, which is well in excess of the 180 degrees needed to guarantee the demise of every living thing in it. A rolling boil is simply a visual signal to the camper that his water has become safe to drink — better than sticking your finger into the pot. The only reason to cover water being boiled is to compensate for lower atmosperic pressures above 5,000 feet or so, where water may boil at 150 degrees. As for “those filtering devices,” I’ve been using and field testing pump filters from MSR, SweetWater, and PUR for 2 years, as well as the new squeeze- bottle filters from Seychelle (very cool), and I love ‘em.  I can recall straining out the sediment and wigglers of swamp water through a dog rag before boiling it for drinking, and a filter is far more convenient.  Iodine, it was discovered 2 years ago, won’t kill cryptosporidium or the newly-discovered cyclospora parasites, so I’ve abandoned using that as a purifier.  The scientific credibility of these filters and purifiers is certified to governmental standards, but if you want to see the difference yourself, just taste the water from your own tap, then taste the same water after it has been filtered. That’s all it will take to convince you that one of these filters belongs in your survival kit. Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer www.amazon.com   www.barnesandnoble.com   www.borders.com On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 Also, I would boil that water in a pressure cooker for at least 20 min.

Response:

One boiling does not “guarantee the demise of every living thing” by a long shot. Boiling only kills the active microbes in the water and only if you maintain a rolling boil for about 20 minutes, cysts can and do withstand the boiling very well, hence the need for an autoclave. There is a fairly reliable method of cleaning water by boiling called Tindalization. Unfortunately, you have to boil the water for 20 minutes on three consecutive days, hardly a viable method for camping. John

servamatic solar water heaterWater boils at 212 degrees Farenheit at sea level, which is well in excess of the 180 degrees needed to guarantee the demise of every living thing in it. You might want to check your facts on this. Ask a doctor why they use an autoclave instead of boiling water, or ask someone who does home canning why they use a pressure cooker.

Response:

One boiling does not “guarantee the demise of every living thing” by a long shot. Boiling only kills the active microbes in the water and only if you maintain a rolling boil for about 20 minutes, cysts can and do withstand the boiling very well, hence the need for an autoclave. There is a fairly reliable method of cleaning water by boiling called Tindalization. Unfortunately, you have to boil the water for 20 minutes on three consecutive days, hardly a viable method for camping. John

1== Will back John on this, as when I studied bacteriology often had culture plates overgrown by an organism called *Bacillus subtillis*. It would survive 20 minutes of autoclaving at 25 PSI quite happily. 2== Fortunately, though, it isn’t usually pathogenic 3== Perhaps it would clarify things a bit if considered why the sterilization was being done.  If going to do an operation and sterilizing instruments, obviously need the maximum achievable sterility.   On the other hand, if just want to make sure that your drinking water is safe, then bringing it to a boil for a few seconds should be adequate. ~ larryn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Water boils at 212 degrees Farenheit at sea level, which is well in excess of the 180 degrees needed to guarantee the demise of every living thing in it. You might want to check your facts on this. Ask a doctor why they use an autoclave instead of boiling water, or ask someone who does home canning why they use a pressure cooker.

Response:

Question:

solar water heater heat wxchange photovoltaic.  My neighbor’s an air-conditioning/heat pump technician and put one in.  It raised his well temperature too much and he had major problems with bacteria control.  He moved the heat exchanger to his 12,000 gallon above ground pool to overcome that problem and last I heard, the water in his swimming pool was a little on the warm side solar water heater heat wxchange photovoltaic

How warm did his pool get..solar water heater heat wxchange photovoltaic….?  do you know. I was thinking of using my pool as the loop. j

Response:

solar water heater heat wxchange photovoltaic  My neighbor’s an air-conditioning/heat pump : technician and put one in.solar water heater heat wxchange photovoltaic  It raised his well temperature too : much and he had major problems with bacteria control.  He moved : the heat exchanger to his 12,000 gallon above ground pool to : overcome that problem and last I heard, the water in his swimming : pool was a little on the warm side                                 :    How warm did his pool get……?  do you know. I was thinking of : using my pool as the loop.                                           I understand that it was swimable, but on the “too warm” solar water heater heat wxchange photovoltaic

Response:

1 btu raises 1 lb of water 1 degree F. solar water heater heat wxchange photovoltaic   A ton of A/C = 200 BTU/min.   A heavy load shouldn’t take but a day or two to reach a point of equilibrium,

Response:

For your purpose, the underwater condenser should be min. 12′ and max. 24′ with no more than 8gpm flow of alchol/water on the shorter setup and no more than 12gpm flow on the longer setup. Make sure you can clean the condenser twice a year, because moss and so on will reduce the effeciency. Robert Smith

Response:

Feel free! Nuffin to do wiv me, solar water heater heat wxchange photovoltaic guv. I nicked it from a UNIX ‘fortune cookie’! Ken, I love your sig. Would you consider selling it, as I’m in that line of work ? …solar water heater heat wxchange photovoltaic   why do many people (and companies) describe such sytems as Geothermal? Has anyone here in the UK tried installing a ground-source heat pump? (I think that’s the correct terminology) I know they’re quite common in N.America. I’ve toyed with the idea but never actually done anything about it.  I don’t have any running (or still) water near by so I’d need a load of buried pipe-work under the garden.  Has anyone done this successfully? Any comments welcome.

Hello Steve, I know of at least one engineering firm doing “geothermal” (ground source) cooling (chilled ceilings) in commercial buildings here in the UK. (Relatively close to Oxford)  I don’t have the firm’s name with me, but if you want to email me, I can send it to you.

Response:

Hello Steve, I know of at least one engineering firm doing “geothermal” (ground source) cooling (chilled ceilings) in commercial buildings here in the UK. (Relatively close to Oxford)  I don’t have the firm’s name with me, but if you want to email me, I can send it to you.

Ellen, ‘fraid it’s really domestic heating I’m after.  Cooling’s no problem – I live up north you see – where it’s grim. solar water heater heat wxchange photovoltaic

Response:

I

Question:

I have recently purchased a solar water heater phoenix az huse with a 3 panel hot water system that for the past 3 months has provided all of solar water heater phoenix az my hot water needs.  Yesterday I noticed a little condensation on the inside of one.  I know that this cannot be a good thing since it is quite reflective. Is this a real problem o the efficency of the system?  Currently it is covering about 5% of the ssurface. Is there any thing that can be done? Can the unit be sealed wtith some form of replenishable desicant inside to stop this from occuring?  Would the increased efficency warrent the work? Thanks Tom ( yes the other posting is for the same house) solar water heater phoenix az

Response:

solar water heater phoenix az Yesterday I noticed a little condensation on the inside of one.  I know that this cannot be a good thing since it is quite reflective. Is this a real problem o the efficency of the system?  Currently it is covering about 5% of the ssurface. Is there any thing that can be done? Can the unit be sealed wtith some form of replenishable desicant inside to stop this from occuring?  Would the increased efficency warrent the work? It’s one of two things.  First, a couple of questions.  Has it rained or changed temperature downward greatly since there wasn’t condensation in the panels?  Can you tell if the water circulating in the panels is full (assuming you have a “split” system with water in the collector seperate from what’s in your tank). solar water heater phoenix az

Exactly right Mark. Solar water heating panels cannot be made air-tight – the thermal expansion of the air between hot and cold conditions causes them to “breath”. In at nightime and out during the (sunny) day. This is normal. If there has been rain it is possible that the panel has aspirated some water. Time and sunny days should drive it out of the panel in short order. DO NOT PLUG UP VENT HOLES IN THE PANEL. More likely is the panel has developed a leak on the inside. If you are using a “closed loop” pressurized system, you will see a drop in the pressure. If you have an “open loop” non-pressurized system the solar fluid will dissappear faster.  (note: all non-pressurized systems need to be “topped-up” ocassionally). If you use an anti-freeze solution in the panels you will find traces of it if you have a leak. The only sure way to know is to remove the glass and check the insides of the panel. Not a lot of fun if you have a high or a steep roof. Good luck solar water heater phoenix az

Response:

I have an anti freeze system and it had not rained within ~ 2days prior to me finding the condensation. Thanks for the input.  I had not figured that the system has to breath during temperature diferences, but it makes sence. solar water heater phoenix az

Response:

Question:

Why do people want to solar water heater tank square the length in bending moment calculations? The length is squared in the bending moment formula if the load is input in load per unit length along the beam. If the total load on the beam is used then the length is not squared. solar water heater tank

solar water heater tank

And put our bare collectors in the sunspace,solar water heater tank eg Big Fins, with an ordinary water heater upstairs that seldom turns on, heated by natural warm water convection, with no collector glazing nor insulation nor pumps nor controllers nor antifreeze nor heat exchangers if possible, just a well-managed sunspace that never freezes. Or perhaps we can hold up 2 plastic 55 gallon drums full of water under the peak of a roof, with a redundant U shaped rope sling around the rafters, and some glazing to the south, and insulation overhead, and some foil underneath, using a few stud cavities for the supply airpath, to make a gravity-feed solar water heater like this:                       drums                     .solar water heater tank

This is a great thread!

It does seem like fun. Now – what about beam supports. How much weigth can a double 2×8x12 support using double 2×4 criples on both sides?

I dunno. What’s a cripple? I’ve decided to hold up my 2 55 gallon drums full of water with 2 composite beams, each made with a 12′ 2×6 with 2 12′ 2×4s and a metal U-shaped sandwich on either side of the 2×6 at the bottom, made from 2 10′ pieces of drywall corner bead. How much will that hold up? Nick

Response:

… Or perhaps we can hold up solar water heater tank 2 plastic 55 gallon drums full of water under the peak of a roof, with a redundant U shaped rope sling around the rafters, and  … During the day, the air from the drum space would slide down the inside of some south wall stud cavities, between the outside wall and some reflective insulation, then south through a hole at the bottom, then up through a 6″ air gap between the dark north wall of the sunspace and a single layer of polycarbonate glazing, and back into the drumspace. There might be a diagonal

How do you handle     — condensation, when the water in the system is cool, so you        don’t get mold growing in the system?     — fire blocks, so you don’t get a fire going up the stud space        (which usually, by code in many places, have fire blocks across them)        (and, remember, polycarbonate burns pretty fast and hot) The ideas are attractive, but I don’t see any built in ways to handle either air quality/mold/condensation or fire safety considerations in them.

Response:

: : This is a great thread! : : It does seem like fun. : : Now – what about beam supports. How much weigth can a double 2×8x12 : support using double 2×4 criples on both sides? : : I dunno. What’s a cripple? I’ve decided to hold up my 2 55 gallon drums full : of water with 2 composite beams, each made with a 12′ 2×6 with 2 12′ 2×4s : and a metal U-shaped sandwich on either side of the 2×6 at the bottom, made : from 2 10′ pieces of drywall corner bead. How much will that hold up? : Just load it til it breaks, rebuild it and put a little less on it tooie

Response:

The first one (www.nrel.gov) is especially well done. (A US government department of energy site.) http://www.nrel.gov/   http://www.eskimo.com/~trace/   http://www.realgoods.com/   http://www.bergey.com/index.html http://keynes.fb12.tu-berlin.de/luftraum/konst/engwindkraft.html http://www.me3.org/issues/wind/gipebk1.html http://www.gridwise.com/ http://www.webpage.com/wpt/   http://solstice.crest.org/

Response:

… Or perhaps we can hold up 2 plastic 55 gallon drums full of water under the peak of a roof, with a redundant U shaped rope sling around the rafters, and … During the day, the air from the drum space would slide down the inside of some south wall stud cavities, between the outside wall and some reflective insulation, then south through a hole at the bottom, then up through a 6″ air gap between the dark north wall of the sunspace and a single layer of polycarbonate glazing, and back into the drumspace.    How do you handle    – condensation, when the water in the system is cool, so you       don’t get mold growing in the system?

Where would the condensation occur, exactly? The whole building would leak enough air to eliminate moisture buildup, and the sunspace would have a vapor barrier on the floor, and the drums would almost always be warmer than the ambient air. They might have a shallow liner underneath, in case one of them leaked, or a little condensation formed. Condensation might be a larger problem in the preheater, if any, ie the tempering tank/heat exchanger that raises the water temp from 32 F to 70 F or so, but that might live in the sunspace.    – fire blocks, so you don’t get a fire going up the stud space       (which usually, by code in many places, have fire blocks across them)

Perhaps stud spaces are used in this way now as HVAC ducts. I’m not impressed with some parts of the code, altho I like the part in the front that says you can do whatever you want, notwithstanding the following text, if the building inspector approves. Sprinklers? Dampers with fusible links, as in envelope houses? Halon? Some old fashioned carcinogenic-if-used- but-perhaps-less-harmful-than-immolation carbon tetrachloride glass bulbs near the top of the stud cavities? A good and reliable fire detection and extinguishing system? Seems like there are lots of solutions, including just insulating the stud cavities in the normal way, and making the air heater on the outside of the wall a little thicker.       (and, remember, polycarbonate burns pretty fast and hot)

I think it’s been through some big city flame spread tests OK.                      drums                     . drum drum . polyethylene       .g b  b                 .    .collar beam.    .— film sunspace — . g foil                 .    . solar air .    .    11′                 .  g     polycarbonate    .    .   heater  .    . 8′   pond         .   g <– single glazing   .    .           .    .                                           |          12′        | During the day, the air from the drum space would slide down the inside of the south wall, south through a hole at the bottom, and up through a 4″ air gap between the dark north wall of the sunspace and a single layer of polycarbonate glazing, and back into the drumspace.

This solar closet may end up in the ceiling. I ended up making all the collar beams super-strong yesterday, and realized 6 drums will fit in the ceiling, (few earthquakes here.) This could be enough for a combined space and water heating system, with no separate solar closet in the sunspace. Like the attic warmstores of Norman Saunders, except it would have an air heater built into the back wall of the sunspace, to make a higher temp, and the warm sunspace air, ie the “waste heat” from that air heater glazing, would heat the cabin on an average December day, with some sun. Nick

Response:

6 drums                  . drum drum . polyethylene       .g b  b                 .    .collar beam.    .— film sunspace — . g R20                  .    . solar air .    .    11′                  .  g     polycarbonate    .    .   heater  .    . 8′    pond         .   g <– single glazing   .    .           .    . R                                            |          12′        | During the day, the air from the drum space would slide down the outside of the south wall, south through a hole at the bottom of an air heater, and up through a 6″ air gap between the dark north wall of the sunspace and a single layer of polycarbonate glazing, and back into the drumspace. At night, the air heater would get cold, and the heat would stay trapped in the attic. Steve Baer and Norman Saunders, PE, have been building systems like this for the last 30 years. Suppose there are 6 plastic 55 gallon drums in the attic. A few numerical questions: 1. What would the average stagnation drumwater temperature be in December?   With a frozen pond to the south, about 1300 Btu/ft^2/day would fall on the sunspace glazing, of which about 1050×8′x12′ = 100K Btu would enter the air heater, on an average December day in Philadelphia, with a 24 hour average outdoor temperature of 36 F. So if the drumwater has temp T, and the sunspace air is 70 F, and the solar energy that flows into the drumwater equals the water heat loss, on an average day, we have   100K Btu =   6 hr(T-70)8×12/R1   from the air heater during the day            +24 hr(T-36)10×12/R20 from the roof, 24 hours a day          = 576T – 40320 + 144T – 5184 = 720T – 45504, or T = (100K+45.5K)/720 = 202 F. OK, altho radiation losses would make this temperature closer to 130 F, without a selective surface, and this doesn’t consider house heating or hot water consumption, yet. 2. If the average drumwater temp were 110 F, what is the minimum average R-value needed for the cabin walls, so the drums can keep the cabin at 68 F for 8 hours per day for 5 days without sun? The drums store about 6(110-80)55×8 = 80K Btu, and the cabin walls have an area of about 350 ft^2, so ignoring the heat loss through the roof, we have 80K = 5×8x(68-36)350/R = 450K/R, so R = 450K/80K = 5.6. Suppose we use an R10 average. R20 for the walls themselves, and window losses that make the total no less than R10. Then the cabin needs 8hr(68-36)350ft^2/R10 = 9K Btu to stay warm on an average 8 hour day. 3. Would the sunspace really be 70 F, during the day? The heat loss from the air heater would be about (110-70)8×12/R1 = 3840 Btu/hour, and the 12′x8′x8′ curved sunspace has about 400 ft^2 of R1 glazing, and the avg daytime high temp in Phila in December is 43 F, for an approximate sunspace temp Tss = 43 + 3840xR1/400 = 52.6 F. We could put less energy into the water to make the average sunspace temp 70 F, so we can heat the cabin with sunspace air, by impeding the air heater airflow so the air temp goes up and we lose 12K vs 4K Btu/hr. Then Tss = 43 + 12K/400 = 73 F. Better. But the sunspace loss would increase to 6hrx12K = 72K Btu/day. We could double glaze the sunspace to cut this in half… Or just remove 9K Btu/day of 110 F air from the air heater, ie 40 cfm, and leave the sunspace cooler. It seems to me a human or plant might be fairly warm in a 53 F room full of still air, if exposed to direct sun. Or we could use a larger sunspace. We might add on another curved poly film 12′x 8′ sunspace to the east, with a poly film covered strawbale wall to the north. This would collect an additional 100K Btu of sun per day, and increase the sunspace glazing area to about 700 ft^2. How much leftover energy will there be if we keep the whole sunspace at 70 F on an average day? 200K – 6(70-43)700ft^2/R1 = 87K Btu/day. 4. How many 4 minute 2 gpm showers can we take on an average day, while heating 32 F water to 110 F? Each shower takes 4×2x8(110-32) = 5K Btu, so with N showers/day, we have 87K Btu =  24 hr(110-36)10×12/R20  from the roof, 24 hours a day          + 9K Btu                  for space heating          + 5K N Btu                for water heating          = 10.6K + 9K + 5K N, so N = (87K – 19.6K)/5K = 13. Did I do this arithmetic correctly? This would work better with 55 F well water. Off to do more hammering, on this cool and blustery day. Nick It’s a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people become involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after solution will appear.                                           Tom Smith, 1980

Response:

: The first one (www.nrel.gov) is especially well done. (A US : government department of energy site.) : http://www.nrel.gov/   : http://www.eskimo.com/~trace/   : http://www.realgoods.com/   : http://www.bergey.com/index.html : http://keynes.fb12.tu-berlin.de/luftraum/konst/engwindkraft.html : http://www.me3.org/issues/wind/gipebk1.html : http://www.gridwise.com/ : http://www.webpage.com/wpt/   : http://solstice.crest.org/

Response:

6 drums                  . drum drum . polyethylene       .g b  b                 .    .collar beam.    .— film sunspace — . g R20                  .    . solar air .    .    11′                  .  g     polycarbonate    .    .   heater  .    . 8′    pond         .   g <– single glazing   .    .           .    . R                                            |          12′        | During the day, the air from the drum space would slide down the outside of the south wall, south through a hole at the bottom of an air heater, and up through a 6″ air gap between the dark north wall of the sunspace and a single layer of polycarbonate glazing, and back into the drumspace. At night, the air heater would get cold, and the heat would stay trapped in the attic. Steve Baer and Norman Saunders, PE, have been building systems like this for the last 30 years. Suppose there are 6 plastic 55 gallon drums in the attic. A few numerical questions: 1. What would the average stagnation drumwater temperature be in December?   With a frozen pond to the south, about 1300 Btu/ft^2/day would fall on the sunspace glazing, of which about 1050×8′x12′ = 100K Btu would enter the air heater, on an average December day in Philadelphia, with a 24 hour average outdoor temperature of 36 F. So if the drumwater has temp T, and the sunspace air is 70 F, and the solar energy that flows into the drumwater equals the water heat loss, on an average day, we have   100K Btu =   6 hr(T-70)8×12/R1   from the air heater during the day            +24 hr(T-36)10×12/R20 from the roof, 24 hours a day          = 576T – 40320 + 144T – 5184 = 720T – 45504, or T = (100K+45.5K)/720 = 202 F. OK, altho radiation losses would make this temperature closer to 130 F, without a selective surface, and this doesn’t consider house heating or hot water consumption, yet. 2. If the average drumwater temp were 110 F, what is the minimum average R-value needed for the cabin walls, so the drums can keep the cabin at 68 F for 8 hours per day for 5 days without sun? The drums store about 6(110-80)55×8 = 80K Btu, and the cabin walls have an area of about 350 ft^2, so ignoring the heat loss through the roof, we have 80K = 5×8x(68-36)350/R = 450K/R, so R = 450K/80K = 5.6. Suppose we use an R10 average. R20 for the walls themselves, and window losses that make the total no less than R10. Then the cabin needs 8hr(68-36)350ft^2/R10 = 9K Btu to stay warm on an average 8 hour day. 3. Would the sunspace really be 70 F, during the day? The heat loss from the air heater would be about (110-70)8×12/R1 = 3840 Btu/hour, and the 12′x8′x8′ curved sunspace has about 400 ft^2 of R1 glazing, and the avg daytime high temp in Phila in December is 43 F, for an approximate sunspace temp Tss = 43 + 3840xR1/400 = 52.6 F. We could put less energy into the water to make the average sunspace temp 70 F, so we can heat the cabin with sunspace air, by impeding the air heater airflow so the air temp goes up and we lose 12K vs 4K Btu/hr. Then Tss = 43 + 12K/400 = 73 F. Better. But the sunspace loss would increase to 6hrx12K = 72K Btu/day. We could double glaze the sunspace to cut this in half… Or just remove 9K Btu/day of 110 F air from the air heater, ie 40 cfm, and leave the sunspace cooler. It seems to me a human or plant might be fairly warm in a 53 F room full of still air, if exposed to direct sun. Or we could use a larger sunspace. We might add on another curved poly film 12′x 8′ sunspace to the east, with a poly film covered strawbale wall to the north. This would collect an additional 100K Btu of sun per day, and increase the sunspace glazing area to about 700 ft^2. How much leftover energy will there be if we keep the whole sunspace at 70 F on an average day? 200K – 6(70-43)700ft^2/R1 = 87K Btu/day. 4. How many 4 minute 2 gpm showers can we take on an average day, while heating 32 F water to 110 F? Each shower takes 4×2x8(110-32) = 5K Btu, so with N showers/day, we have 87K Btu =  24 hr(110-36)10×12/R20  from the roof, 24 hours a day          + 9K Btu                  for space heating          + 5K N Btu                for water heating          = 10.6K + 9K + 5K N, so N = (87K – 19.6K)/5K = 13. Did I do this arithmetic correctly? This would work better with 55 F well water. Off to do more hammering, on this cool and blustery day. Nick It’s a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people become involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after solution will appear.                                           Tom Smith, 1980

Response:

… Or perhaps we can hold up 2 plastic 55 gallon drums full of water under the peak of a roof, with a redundant U shaped rope sling around the rafters, and … During the day, the air from the drum space would slide down the inside of some south wall stud cavities, between the outside wall and some reflective insulation, then south through a hole at the bottom, then up through a 6″ air gap between the dark north wall of the sunspace and a single layer of polycarbonate glazing, and back into the drumspace.    How do you handle    – condensation, when the water in the system is cool, so you       don’t get mold growing in the system?

Where would the condensation occur, exactly? The whole building would leak enough air to eliminate moisture buildup, and the sunspace would have a vapor barrier on the floor, and the drums would almost always be warmer than the ambient air. They might have a shallow liner underneath, in case one of them leaked, or a little condensation formed. Condensation might be a larger problem in the preheater, if any, ie the tempering tank/heat exchanger that raises the water temp from 32 F to 70 F or so, but that might live in the sunspace.    – fire blocks, so you don’t get a fire going up the stud space       (which usually, by code in many places, have fire blocks across them)

Perhaps stud spaces are used in this way now as HVAC ducts. I’m not impressed with some parts of the code, altho I like the part in the front that says you can do whatever you want, notwithstanding the following text, if the building inspector approves. Sprinklers? Dampers with fusible links, as in envelope houses? Halon? Some old fashioned carcinogenic-if-used- but-perhaps-less-harmful-than-immolation carbon tetrachloride glass bulbs near the top of the stud cavities? A good and reliable fire detection and extinguishing system? Seems like there are lots of solutions, including just insulating the stud cavities in the normal way, and making the air heater on the outside of the wall a little thicker.       (and, remember, polycarbonate burns pretty fast and hot)

I think it’s been through some big city flame spread tests OK.                      drums                     . drum drum . polyethylene       .g b  b                 .    .collar beam.    .— film sunspace — . g foil                 .    . solar air .    .    11′                 .  g     polycarbonate    .    .   heater  .    . 8′   pond         .   g <– single glazing   .    .           .    .                                           |          12′        | During the day, the air from the drum space would slide down the inside of the south wall, south through a hole at the bottom, and up through a 4″ air gap between the dark north wall of the sunspace and a single layer of polycarbonate glazing, and back into the drumspace.

This solar closet may end up in the ceiling. I ended up making all the collar beams super-strong yesterday, and realized 6 drums will fit in the ceiling, (few earthquakes here.) This could be enough for a combined space and water heating system, with no separate solar closet in the sunspace. Like the attic warmstores of Norman Saunders, except it would have an air heater built into the back wall of the sunspace, to make a higher temp, and the warm sunspace air, ie the “waste heat” from that air heater glazing, would heat the cabin on an average December day, with some sun. Nick

Response:

The first one (www.nrel.gov) is especially well done. (A US government department of energy site.) http://www.nrel.gov/   http://www.eskimo.com/~trace/   http://www.realgoods.com/   http://www.bergey.com/index.html http://keynes.fb12.tu-berlin.de/luftraum/konst/engwindkraft.html http://www.me3.org/issues/wind/gipebk1.html http://www.gridwise.com/ http://www.webpage.com/wpt/   http://solstice.crest.org/

Response:

This is a great thread! BTW – Their is a span calculator at http://www.btw.com/himprove.htm Now – what about beam supports. How much weigth can a double 2×8x12 support using double 2×4 criples on both sides? Any pointers? Thanks! — Greg Marion                                                   SDRC SDRC North American Customer Services

Response:

… Or perhaps we can hold up 2 plastic 55 gallon drums full of water under the peak of a roof, with a redundant U shaped rope sling around the rafters, and  … During the day, the air from the drum space would slide down the inside of some south wall stud cavities, between the outside wall and some reflective insulation, then south through a hole at the bottom, then up through a 6″ air gap between the dark north wall of the sunspace and a single layer of polycarbonate glazing, and back into the drumspace. There might be a diagonal

How do you handle     — condensation, when the water in the system is cool, so you        don’t get mold growing in the system?     — fire blocks, so you don’t get a fire going up the stud space        (which usually, by code in many places, have fire blocks across them)        (and, remember, polycarbonate burns pretty fast and hot) The ideas are attractive, but I don’t see any built in ways to handle either air quality/mold/condensation or fire safety considerations in them.

Response:

Why do people want to square the length in bending moment calculations? The length is squared in the bending moment formula if the load is input in load per unit length along the beam. If the total load on the beam is used then the length is not squared.

Makes sense to me. Now, I wonder how much weight a 12′ beam like this will hold up?      www s www s www  – www s www s www  <–3 1/2″ drywall screws      www s www s www      www s www s www  – www s www s www  <–      www s www s www                ^  ^                |  | __ 2×4                |__ 1/16″ steel, or perhaps a U-shaped piece of chicken wire,                                   hardware cloth, stucco mesh, etc… Harry Parker’s _Simplified Design of Structural Timber_, 2nd edition, gives this procedure on pages 233-235: 1. Assume fs = 20K psi for the steel and fw = 1200 psi for the wood. 2. Find the section modulus of the wood Sw = bh^2/6 = 9.1875 in^3. 3. Find the section modulus of the steel Ss = 0.255 in^3. 4. Find the distributed load that the wood will carry.    M = WL/8 = 18 in-lb = fwSw, so W = 413 lb. 5. Find the distributed load that the steel will carry.    M = WL/8 = 18 in-lb = fsSs, so W = 284 lb. 6. Add the 2 loads to find the 697 lb max load the flitched beam will carry. Perhaps 2 such collar beams could hold up 2 55 gallon drums full of water, with a redundant U shaped rope sling around the rafters, and some glazing to the south, and insulation overhead, and some foil underneath, using a few stud cavities for the supply airpath, to make a gravity-feed solar water heater like this:                       drums                     . drum drum . polyethylene       .g b  b                 .    .collar beam.    . film sunspace — . g foil                 .    . solar air .    .                  .  g     polycarbonate    .    .   heater  .    .                 .   g <– single glazing   .    .           .    . Nick

Response:

: : This is a great thread! : : It does seem like fun. : : Now – what about beam supports. How much weigth can a double 2×8x12 : support using double 2×4 criples on both sides? : : I dunno. What’s a cripple? I’ve decided to hold up my 2 55 gallon drums full : of water with 2 composite beams, each made with a 12′ 2×6 with 2 12′ 2×4s : and a metal U-shaped sandwich on either side of the 2×6 at the bottom, made : from 2 10′ pieces of drywall corner bead. How much will that hold up? : Just load it til it breaks, rebuild it and put a little less on it tooie

Response:

: The first one (www.nrel.gov) is especially well done. (A US : government department of energy site.) : http://www.nrel.gov/   : http://www.eskimo.com/~trace/   : http://www.realgoods.com/   : http://www.bergey.com/index.html : http://keynes.fb12.tu-berlin.de/luftraum/konst/engwindkraft.html : http://www.me3.org/issues/wind/gipebk1.html : http://www.gridwise.com/ : http://www.webpage.com/wpt/   : http://solstice.crest.org/

Response:

The trick is, as = Mr. Pine has figured out, to isolate the sunspace = from the living area. = Good idea

And put our bare collectors in the sunspace, eg Big Fins, with an ordinary water heater upstairs that seldom turns on, heated by natural warm water convection, with no collector glazing nor insulation nor pumps nor controllers nor antifreeze nor heat exchangers if possible, just a well-managed sunspace that never freezes. Or perhaps we can hold up 2 plastic 55 gallon drums full of water under the peak of a roof, with a redundant U shaped rope sling around the rafters, and some glazing to the south, and insulation overhead, and some foil underneath, using a few stud cavities for the supply airpath, to make a gravity-feed solar water heater like this:                       drums                     . drum drum . polyethylene       .g b  b                 .    .collar beam.    .— film sunspace — . g foil                 .    . solar air .    .    11′                  .  g     polycarbonate    .    .   heater  .    . 8′    pond         .   g <– single glazing   .    .           .    .                                            |          12′        | During the day, the air from the drum space would slide down the inside of some south wall stud cavities, between the outside wall and some reflective insulation, then south through a hole at the bottom, then up through a 6″ air gap between the dark north wall of the sunspace and a single layer of polycarbonate glazing, and back into the drumspace. There might be a diagonal layer of oxidized stucco mesh in the air heater, sloped from north to south. Something like this would be nice for a rustic cabin, as a part of solar heating our 10′x12′ shed. The sunspace frame has curved 1×3 spaced beams on 4′ centers (I just snapped 4 1×3s in bending them to less than an 8′ radius) and the 4×8x8′ solar closet might be in the sunspace itself, which leaves a 4×8′ patch of sunspace wall. It would be nice to have a warmwater hose in the sunspace, for showers. At some point, the “solar closet” might become an EPDM-lined strawbale hot tub, as well, with a rigid automatically movable reflective and insulating cover. The water supply might be a 16×24′ pond to the south, as well as the 8×12′ sunspace and 10×12′ roof and 12×16 adjacent greenhouse area, about 800 ft^2 of rain catchment area, which should provide 64 gallons of water a day, where I live, for an average water consumption of 8 gallons per hour over an 8 hour day. Enough water for 16 showers with 4 minutes of water usage at 2 gpm. Heating the water from 65 F to 105 F takes about (105-65)64×8 = 20K Btu/day, which could come from the 4×8′ air heater, and raising it from 32 F to 65 F takes about (65-32)64×8 = 16K Btu/day. Could this be done with a 4″ x 10′ tempering pipe hanging inside the cabin, near the ceiling? It would hold about 56 pounds of water, with a surface area of about 10.5 ft^2, and the main thermal resistance might be a (US) R2/3 still air film on the outside, which would make RC = 0.67/10.5×56 = 3.5 hours. Hmmm. We need something closer to a half hour to keep up with the average water usage. Add some sort of fins and a small fan and a 6″ concentric pipe to double the first pipe area and reduce the R-value to about 0.2, by moving air past the pipe at 8 mph? With a half-hour time constant, 7 gallons of water in a 70 F room would warm up to 70-(70-32)exp(-1/0.5) = 65 F in an hour. Or should we put the pipe outside, near the peak of the warmer sunspace, with some insulation above it? Or hang a dark drum in the sunspace, and let it lose heat all night? A 55 gallon drum has about 25 ft^2 of area, so RC = 2/3/25×55x8 = 12 hours. Suppose we surround it with insulation on the back, and R1 glazing on the front. Most of the heat loss will be through the glazing, and on an average day, with some sun, if the drum starts out at 32 F, and the sunspace is 80 F for 6 hours, the water temp at the end of the day would be 80-(80-32)exp(-6/12) = 51 F. Adding 12ft^2×0.9×0.9×1000 Btu/ft^2/dayx1.3reflective gain = 13K Btu of direct sun to this might raise the water temp another 13K/450 lb = 28 F to 79 F. Looks like the right ball park. Jade Mountain’s $59 4 gpm 12V 7A #WP100 Amazon submersible pump might run for 2 minutes every hour, with a float switch or 2 in one of the drums. Nick

Response:

This is a great thread!

It does seem like fun. Now – what about beam supports. How much weigth can a double 2×8x12 support using double 2×4 criples on both sides?

I dunno. What’s a cripple? I’ve decided to hold up my 2 55 gallon drums full of water with 2 composite beams, each made with a 12′ 2×6 with 2 12′ 2×4s and a metal U-shaped sandwich on either side of the 2×6 at the bottom, made from 2 10′ pieces of drywall corner bead. How much will that hold up? Nick

Response:

Question:

Hi I am interested in constructing a solar water heater to supliment my present heating system (gas boiler) can anyone give me any plans or designs? I like in the UK and have had a really expensive estimate and much bullshit jargon from a local company.  Thanks in advance.solar water heater india

Response:

Hi I am interested in constructing  a  solar water heater  to supliment my present heating system (gas boiler) can anyone give me any plans or designs? I like in the UK and have had a really expensive estimate and much bullshit jargon from a local company.  Thanks  in  advance. Luke

There is an excellent newsgroup that can help you on this… it is called ‘Alt.solar.thermal’ …. I  used  to post  to  it  all  the time,  when  I was working on my heating panels for my hot water heater,  and  my home heating…solar water heater india

Response:

For ‘no bullshit jargon’ and good advice, from UK ethical company Hi I am interested in constructing a solar water heater to supliment my present heating system (gas boiler) can anyone give me any plans or designs? I like in the UK and have had a really expensive estimate and much bullshit jargon from a local company.  Thanks in advance.solar water heater india

Response:

Hi I am interested in constructing a solar water heater to supliment my present heating system (gas boiler) can anyone give me any plans or designs? I like in the UK and have had a really expensive estimate and much bullshit jargon from a local company.  Thanks in advance.solar water heater india

Luke, Don’t bother with solar in the UK, as it is very expensive to install for what you are to get out of it. Better to spend you money on: 1. Replacing your boiler with an efficient condensing boiler. 2. Zone up the house. Split upstairs and downstairs with separate thermostats and time clocks – don’t heat spaces you don’t need to. 3. Use either the Honeywell CM67 optimiser thermostat/timer or the Landis & Staefa REV 22.  Both Optimisers – that is you punch in your occupation times and the optimiser calculates when to bring in the boiler. 4. Put thermostat radiator vales on each radiator (except where the wall thermostat is). 5.  Insulate the attic up to about 300mm. 6.  make the ceiling air-tight.  and other parts of the house too. 7.solar water heater india   If you are to replace your hot water cylinder use only a quick recovery coil (can save up to 40% and heat-up times of a matter of minutes as all the boilers output is directed to the cylinder.solar water heater india  You can also go condensing combi and zone off the house and use optimiser timer/thermostats Following the above to a large extent will save more energy than going solar to supplement the existing system.

Response:

Question:

My family and I use a solar water heater with thermostatically-controlled gas boosting. We normally leave the gas booster disabled and switch it on only when necessary in order to minimise gas use. I had installed a tempering valve (limits the hot water temperature to a set value between 35 and 55C) for the hot water line to the bathroom to reduce the risk of scalding for children.solar water heater systems   The valve is sold by Yorkshire Fittings  and is made in Sweden. My problem is this:  Sometimes the solar-heated water is just marginally hot enough for evening showers but it is not as hot as the tempering valve would normally get as input and it unnecessarily cools it, leaving it too cold for showers.solar water heater systems   It does a great job of reducing the temperature of very hot water but if the input is only warm it is a nuisance. Other than installing a complicated arrangement of pipes and fittings to manually bypass it when the water is not very hot or burning a lot of gas to heat the water hotter than would otherwise be required, does anyone have any suggestions?  For instance, are there other brands of tempering valve which work better (ie. don’t add cold to it) when the water is not very hot?solar water heater systems  Thanks in advance, solar water heater systems

Response:

Thanks for that information.solar water heater systems   My valve has been replaced without improvement so I think the performance for cool input water is simply not designed for. Do you know the brand name of  your mixer valve?solar water heater systems  My family and I use a solar water heater with thermostatically-controlled gas boosting. We normally leave the gas booster disabled and switch it on only when necessary in order to minimise gas use. I had installed a tempering valve (limits the hot water temperature to a set value between 35 and 55C) for the hot water line to the bathroom to reduce the risk of scalding for children.  The valve is sold by Yorkshire Fittings  and is made in Sweden. My problem is this:  Sometimes the solar-heated water is just marginally hot enough for evening showers but it is not as hot as the tempering valve would normally get as input and it unnecessarily cools it, leaving it too cold for showers.  It does a great job of reducing the temperature of very hot water but if the input is only warm it is a nuisance. Other than installing a complicated arrangement of pipes and fittings to manually bypass it when the water is not very hot or burning a lot of gas to heat the water hotter than would otherwise be required, does anyone have any suggestions?  For instance, are there other brands of tempering valve which work better (ie. don’t add cold to it) when the water is not very hot? I’ve used solar hot water for over 15 years now. I use a mixing valve to mix down to 140 degrees F. It never add cold below 130 degrees. Perhaps the thermostatic element is not working? Thanks in advance, solar water heater systems

– Dr Richard Corkish The Photovoltaics Special Research Centre University of New South Wales Sydney 2052 Australia fax: +61-2-3855412  phone: +61-2-3855471 World Wide Web: http://www.pv.unsw.edu.au/

Response:

solar water heater systems  My family and I use a solar water heater with thermostatically-controlled gas boosting. We normally leave the gas booster disabled and switch it on only when necessary in order to minimise gas use. I had installed a tempering valve (limits the hot water temperature to a set value between 35 and 55C) for the hot water line to the bathroom to reduce the risk of scalding for children.  The valve is sold by Yorkshire Fittings  and is made in Sweden. My problem is this:  Sometimes the solar-heated water is just marginally hot enough for evening showers but it is not as hot as the tempering valve would normally get as input and it unnecessarily cools it, leaving it too cold for showers.  It does a great job of reducing the temperature of very hot water but if the input is only warm it is a nuisance. Other than installing a complicated arrangement of pipes and fittings to manually bypass it when the water is not very hot or burning a lot of gas to heat the water hotter than would otherwise be required, does anyone have any suggestions?  For instance,solar water heater systems  are there other brands of tempering valve which work better (ie. don’t add cold to it) when the water is not very hot?

I’ve used solar hot water for over 15 years now. I use a mixing valve to mix down to 140 degrees F. It never add cold below 130 degrees. Perhaps the thermostatic element is not working? Thanks in advance,solar water heater systems

Response:

Question:

If anybody knows the sources for 50 gallon solar water heaters please let me know. I have a need for these for a developing country. I am located in California and would prefer a Calif. solar water heater pipe

solar water heater pipe, and put some insulation up in the ridge peak, with an 8′ long x 6″ diameter galvanized steel or PVC pipe water tank up there under the insulation, with no insulation underneath the tank, so the tank is heated by solar hot air from the shingle-PV cavity, or say,solar water heater pipe  2 GPM of water trickling over the 6 m^2 (?) of PVs, collecting in a small gutter and being pumped back up to the tank, with a tiny PV-powered pump, when the tank water temp is low, with some sort of damper with a bimetallic spring that opens near the top of the cavity to let the PVs run cooler, when the tank is warm enough, eg the $11 AFV-1B automatic foundation vent made by Leslie-Locke of Atlanta (gee, what a run-on sentence Except for the PV part, this is cheaper than conventional roof construction, and in a cold climate, it could provide daylighting and space heat for the house beneath, if a reflective motorized return air damper in the insulated attic floor, hinged on the north side, tilted up to the south and a fan blew air down from the attic peak through one of the PV cavities, in sunny times.solar water heater pipe  Ovshinsky shingles are made in California, and make about 50 w/m^2 in peak sun at 25 C, according to engineer Jim Young at United Solar (800) 397-2083, who says this only decreases to 45 w/m^2 at 60 C. He says the current retail price of their least expensive product is about $4.50/peak watt. Nick PS: I would guess these shingles won’t get cheaper quickly, from this email dialog with Villanova University’s Professor Singh, posted with permission. Nick:         I am glad to see that you are getting some opportunities to contribute to a few solar home designs. I have still not found a student group to work on the solar shed – as soon as I do we’ll follow up on that project. He didn’t mention that it was that complex, and I’d gotten the impression somehow that the substrate was ordinary cheap mild steel…

Ovshinsky’s panels used to use a Japanese steel because they could not find an American steel manufacturer that made steel with a smooth enough morphology to make good devices !! The process is complicated because the amorphous silicon needs to have a low enough density of impurities and defects in order to make devices. The amorphous silicon solar panels actually start off as 8-10% efficiency and drop down to 5% because of optical generation of defects in the amorphous silicon material. In research,solar water heater pipe  non-degraded 10% amorphous silicon cells have been demonstrated but I don’t think that they have reached production yet.         It is actually quite difficult to make solar cells that are 10% efficient – especially over large areas. Imagine making square feet of solar panels that are low in defects and impurities – it’s not easy !!         The only company electrodepositing solar panels is BP Solar in England. I’m not sure of the status of their production. solar water heater pipe          I hope that this information is useful to help you understand a little more about PV processing. Please feel free to disseminate this information to whomever you wish – but I would like you to mention me as the source in case others wish to contact me for more information (especially on my research work).         Hope we see some Sun again soon – it’s quite dreary outside today.         Pali  Hi Pali,          I have a couple of corrections to make to your statements about my  PV research and Ovshinsky’s panels.  Thank you.  I am working on electroplated solar cells on transparent substrates.  Sorry,solar water heater pipe  I guess I missed that when you explained to me what you were doing.  The electroplating process is a low temperature process (60 C) and so could  potentially be used on plastic substrates with a transparent conducting  oxide (such as tin oxide or indium tin oxide) as the transparent contact.  This would allow potentially low cost devices to be manufactured since the  process and materials costs could both be very low. The transparent substrate  would also allow heat to pass through so that the use of these devices in  a hybrid electrical/thermal system would be a great idea. It also makes  a lot of sense to use these types of PV cells in a hybrid solar collector  with a heat exchanger because that would allow the cells to operate a  little more efficiently !!  I do recall your mentioning that a little company in Maryland was actually  producing these… Ovshinsky PVs make 50 w/m^2 in peak sun at 20 C, and 45 w  at 60 C. I wonder about the efficiency of your plated cells might be at  40-60 C, ie water heating temps… Or will that damage them?  In Ovshinsky’s case, the PVs would absorb 90% of the sun as heat, which might  heat air or water directly, but in your case, I guess that 90% would shine on  through the  cell to strike a dark surface, perhaps behind another transparent  layer with an air gap on each side, so your cells would run cooler in this  application, I guess.  I will keep you informed as to how the research is going but don’t hold  your breath – after all it is research and may take a few years to get to  a point before it is commercially viable.  Sure… Altho you seem to be more interested in coming up with a practical  product than many other scientists and professors… I’d be happy to post  some edited version of this email of yours to our AE list, about 500 amateurs  worldwide, and a few professionals, with your permission, anon if you like.  Most of the info they get about PVs comes from fairly slanted advertising and  press releases.          In terms of Ovshinsky’s cells, these are amorphous silicon alloys  that are made by a plasma assisted chemical vapor deposition process. Those  big chambers that you have seen that look like a newpaper press are in fact  evacuated chambers in which gases of SiH4, GeH4, CH4, PH3 (phosphine),solar water heater pipe   AsH3(arsine) and B2H6 (diborane) flow. An RF plasma is used to break down  these gases and the Silicon, germanium, carbon, hydrogen and dopant  components are driven to the stainless steel substrate by the capacitive DC  self-bias between anode and cathode capacitor plates.  He didn’t mention that it was that complex, and I’d gotten the impression  somehow that the substrate was ordinary cheap mild steel…  The multiple chambers are used to deposit individual layers of a device  that may have as many as 10-12 layers !! This is not an inherently cheap  process in small scale production (<10MW/yr.) and so the selling price of  $4.50 a peak Watt is about the production price of these cells.solar water heater pipe  I wonder why this has to be so complicated, if they are only aiming at  5% efficiency? These things are basically just large area PN junctions  with carefully non-shading top electrode, no? Not CMOS microprocessors…  (USSC is very secretive about its books and so the exact production price  is generally not known  Jim Young of USSC gave me that “retail price.” I assumed these things cost  them a lot less to make, at 5% efficiency, and that USSC was charging what  the market will bear, and making lots of money competing against crystalline  cells, where mounting area is not a big factor. John Page also mentioned  that Ovshinsky seemed to leave out some details in his talk.  but Solarex’s  Thin Film Division makes a similar product and they are selling the cells  for more than it costs to make them). As far as I am aware only the Solarex  polycrystalline silicon cell division is making money as a solar cell  manufacturer and they are selling at about $3.50 a peak Watt for large  orders. There is a joint venture between Enron Corp. and Amoco (Solarex’s  parent company) to make a 10 MW/yr. thin film PV manufacturing facility in  Virginia. Until now the amorphous silicon community has said that the cost  of amorphous silicon PV will drop dramatically (down to less than $1/Wp) if  they could take advantage of economies of scale and produce at least 10MWp/yr.  Seems like they have been saying that for 30 years I read a paper  by Ovshinsky in Physics Review in about 1966…  Enron has called their bluff and so let’s see what happens !! Keep posted.solar water heater pipe  OK…  In the meantime Solarex’s polycrystalline silicon cell division is  ramping up to increase their production capacity three-fold and Siemens  Solar (what used to be ARCO Solar) is also increasing production. So there  is a growing market for PV but primarily for remote applications in  developing countries.  The figure I heard is that 80% of our PV production goes overseas, a lot  of that to the 2 vbillion people  in the world who have no elecrcity at all.  Just mud and tin huts with dry cells and candles, I guess.          I agree that we should start any solar home design with trying to  meet the heating load of a house through good passive solar design (after  insulating the house as well as possible) and then look to fund PV to supply  the necessary but small electric load (if economically justified).  Good. Would you still like a solar shed in your yard?

Response:

Always wondered whether California was a developing country! The truth is out Do you need our fondue pots?solar water heater pipe

Response:

If anybody knows the sources for 50 gallon solar waterheaters please let me know. I have a need for these for a developing country. I am located in Californiaand would prefer a Calif. source.solar water heater pipe

Response:

Question:

I seem to be having trouble making myself understood heresolar water heater india . I guess this proves my point about how many people are unaware of this technology. The units I am talking about do not use evaporation. They simply use tap water to cool the condensation coils, and then discharge the warm water.solar water heater india  That’s all. No more complicated than that.

Yes, I know about those too.solar water heater india  I even know some people that use a variation, for both cooling and heat (of a sort).  They rely on the good earth as a heat sink.  They have merit, however you simply must have a reliable water supply that will handle the heat load.  If all of a sudden your water supply goes to 80 degrees, you don’t have much air conditioning. Also, the physical size of the cooling units are a limit.  With “standard” air conditioning, you get more BTUs pumped through due to a greater temperature difference.solar water heater india

Response:

Distributed generation is coming! Self genrators will take loads off the grid on peak solving the problem. All we need is a free market. I sell power systems that can cut cost by 50% and emissions by 70%. Utilities block my access to the grid, deny natural gas service for  fuel, and bribe away my customers with “special” ratessolar water heater india . Brown outs are caused by deregulation but can be solved by a real free market.

solar water heater india.  Having owned a ground source heat pump, I believe that I can discuss this subject.  The “water cooled” (ground source) heat pump does save a great deal in the winter, as it is much easier to transfer heat than to generate it. The air conditioning savings are much less dramatic I should have been more precise. I was not talking about ground-source heat pumps to provide heat and cooling. I was talking about water-cooled air conditioners to replace dedicated air-exchange air conditioners. They are extensively used in large commercial and residential applications, but seldom on smaller-scale applications. A lot of people don’t even know they exist, but they can be bought at retail if one searches for them. I looked into them but decided it was unjustifiable here in Canada. We get some hot weather but don’t have a long season. Even in places with water shortages they could in theory be used, since they can use water that is not of drinking quality, and their water outflow can be reused as well. All this would require a major social investment of course. Water cooled air-conditioners are only effective in areas of low humidity. This is OK for the desert regions of the world. But many other places that are hot year round or just hot in Summer also have high humidity, limiting the effectiveness of water coolers. Ilan. “Real individualism is the obligation to act as a citizen”, solar water heater india.  I’ve had those too.  They work great in the desert, but they aren’t worth a damn in high humidity. If you are talking about a air conditioning cycle with a compressor and evaporator, the water cooled don’t have much advantage over ground source. The heat transfer coefficient for moist earth is very very close to that of water.solar water heater india  You can put the condenser in a lake for example, I’ve seen it done.

Response:

solar water heater india  the more fundamental problem with electricity deregulation isn’t brownouts from a lack of adequate generation, but from the ageing of the transmission system. Transmission will have to occur, even in a market dominated by distributed units, since there will always be a place somewhere on the grid that needs more electricity than it can generate locally — and someone somewere else that wants to deliver it. Transmission also becomes important if we want to see “green energy” flourish — since renewable sources are localized (best solar density in the SW desert; wind in the Northern Plains; hydro in the NW, etc.) if a consumer in Texas wants “green power” they’re going to have to import it, at least for the foreseeable future  — yes, I recognize that electrons aren’t like the gas going through a pipeline, but even still, you won’t be able to meet green power demands in Texas by increasing the operation of oil or coal fired plants in TX. Our transmission system is ageing, uses inefficient technology and is of a fixed capacity. Adding more capacity is made difficult by siting difficulties. Further, since we can’t have transmission lines for every generator that wants to deliver power directly,solar water heater india  it is a shared good that no one really wants to take financial responsibility for. Much like the interstate highway system, everyone wants to use it but no one wants to spend money to improve it, especially if deregulation forces companies to be leaner and meaner to survive. In addition, deregulatory activities should, in my opinion, level the playing field for all technologies. The resulting consumer demand for green power will drive R&D in renewable technologies that has been lacking for years in the absence of high fossil fuel prices. Bryan Hannegan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone been following the gas markets?  The gas price has been on a path straight up and is now above $3.20 Mcf.  Looks like the market’s betting that its going to be a really hot summer.  If so, EIA says there could be brownouts if its anything like last summer. What happens to the new economy when there is insufficient electricity to run it? solar water heater india

Response:

Water cooled air-conditioners are only effective in areas of low humidity. This is OK for the desert regions of the world. But many other places that are hot year round or just hot in Summer also have high humidity, limiting the effectiveness of water

coolers. I seem to be having trouble making myself understood here. I guess this proves my point about how many people are unaware of this technology. The units I am talking about do not use evaporation. They simply use tap water to cool the condensation coils, and then discharge the warm water. solar water heater india

Response:

In addition, deregulatory activities should, in my opinion,solar water heater india  level the playing field for all technologies. The resulting consumer demand for green power will drive R&D in renewable technologies that has been lacking for years in the absence of high fossil fuel prices.

I have absolutely no problem if someone wants to pay a premium for “green power”.  I don’t. Mr. Utility Executive.  Please provide electricity in the cheapest manner possible for my account, while complying with all of the regulatory requirements of course. That’s not to say that I would not mind HAVING a wind generator, or a solar water heater, or a PV system on my house to minimize my costs to that system, the payback would be 12 years.  That’s a loser. That’s also not to say that if a group of people want to band together and buy “green power”, have a ball.  In the coming age of deregulation, such schemes may find customers and suppliers.  Go for it. Have a ball.  Include me out though until you can market your energy as cheaply as the local utility.solar water heater india

Response:

12 year payback a loser? not by my calculator. unless of course, your wind jenny won’t last 12 years.solar water heater india.  Having owned a ground source heat pump, I believe that I can discuss this subject.  The “water cooled” (ground source) heat pump does save a great deal in the winter, as it is much easier to transfer heat than to generate it. The air conditioning savings are much less dramatic.  There IS a bit of energy savings, and you don’t work the heat exchanger as hard, but the savings are NOWHERE near the 4:1 that you see with heating costs. As to the payback it was a tough sell.  We calculated that the breakeven point was 7 years based upon the increased capital cost of the ground source heat pump over a high efficiency gas furnace using trucked in propane.  Had we been able to get natural gas at the location we were at, I don’t think we could have justified it at all.solar water heater india

Response:

Distributed generation is coming! Self genrators will take loads off the grid on peak solving the problem. All we need is a free market. I sell power systems that can cut cost by 50% and emissions by 70%. Utilities block my access to the grid, deny natural gas service for  fuel, and bribe away my customers with “special” rates. Brown outs are caused by deregulation but can be solved by a real free market. solar water heater india

Response:

Actually, not really.  Having owned a ground source heat pump, I believe that I can discuss this subject.  The “water cooled” (ground source) heat pump does save a great deal in the winter, as it is much easier to transfer heat than to generate it.solar water heater india  The air conditioning savings are much less dramatic

I should have been more precise. I was not talking about ground-source heat pumps to provide heat and cooling. I was talking about water-cooled air conditioners to replace dedicated air-exchange air conditioners. They are extensively used in large commercial and residential applications, but seldom on smaller-scale applications. A lot of people don’t even know they exist, but they can be bought at retail if one searches for them. I looked into them but decided it was unjustifiable here in Canada. We get some hot weather but don’t have a long season. Even in places with water shortages they could in theory be used, since they can use water that is not of drinking quality, and their water outflow can be reused as well. All this would require a major social investment of course. solar water heater india

Response:

I believe that the maintenance of the system, acidizing the cooling tower, piping, etc., would overcome the savings on the cost of electricity.  One could acidize the system themselves, but probably would have to get a permit to buy and use the muratic acid, and then pay someone to dispose of it according to EPA standards, if there are any and the unit would be down a couple of days.  Then the worse, too many acidizings and the copper tubing is gone then replacement costs.  On the otherhand, it may just depend on where one is located as to the cost effectiveness of the water-cooled systems.

Maybe this will shake up the air conditioning industry to start pushing more efficient units, and encourage home owners to buy them. There are water-cooled home air conditioners that use a fraction of the electricity of the air-cooled ones, but few people buy them because their initial cost is greater (although they pay for themselves in the long run). Not a solution this coming summer of course.     Has anyone been following the gas markets?  The gas price has been on a path straight up and is now above $3.20 Mcf.  Looks like the market’s betting that its going to be a really hot summer.  If so, EIA says there could be brownouts if its anything like last summer.  What happens to the new economy when there is insufficient electricity to run it?  Why is electricity deregulation not producing adequate generation capacity? solar water heater india

Response:

solar water heater india.  Having owned a ground source heat pump, I believe that I can discuss this subject.  The “water cooled” (ground source) heat pump does save a great deal in the winter, as it is much easier to transfer heat than to generate it. The air conditioning savings are much less dramatic I should have been more precise. I was not talking about ground-source heat pumps to provide heat and cooling. I was talking about water-cooled air conditioners to replace dedicated air-exchange air conditioners. They are extensively used in large commercial and residential applications, but seldom on smaller-scale applications. A lot of people don’t even know they exist, but they can be bought at retail if one searches for them. I looked into them but decided it was unjustifiable here in Canada. We get some hot weather but don’t have a long season. Even in places with water shortages they could in theory be used, since they can use water that is not of drinking quality,solar water heater india  and their water outflow can be reused as well. All this would require a major social investment of course.

Water cooled air-conditioners are only effective in areas of low humidity. This is OK for the desert regions of the world. But many other places that are hot year round or just hot in Summer also have high humidity, limiting the effectiveness of water coolers. Ilan. “Real individualism is the obligation to act as a citizen”, solar water heater india

Response:

Recall last year’s “rolling brownouts”?  Saw a graphic yesterday showing electrical demand vs generating capacity.  If you believe in straight line extrapolations demand will approx = supply in the next two to three years. I don’t believe in straight lines.  One of the ways to stay “competitive” is to  have something that is not only in demand but RARE.solar water heater india  Think OPEC is finally figuring that one out. Glad I started experimenting with solar energy early.

Has anyone been following the gas markets?  The gas price has been on a path straight up and is now above $3.20 Mcf.  Looks like the market’s betting that its going to be a really hot summer.  If so, EIA says there could be brownouts if its anything like last summer.  What happens to the new economy when there is insufficient electricity to run it?  Why is electricity deregulation not producing adequate generation capacity? Policy Pete web site:solar water heater india

Response:

| The concept of deregulation for our electricity is based upon | the airline and phone industry.  They too once had a “monopoly” | that got broken up.  The end result is that airline passengers | and phone users get lower costs because the companies had to | get “lean and mean” and compete with each other.  No doubt about | it.  It worked.  I flew from St. Louis to Detroit once for | $59.00. The trouble with your utility-deregulation-is-like-airline-deregulation analogy concerns the hidden part that remained regulated.  For airlines it was safety.  An airline could cut costs,solar water heater india  but they couldn’t stop maintaining their planes.  There was an elaborate series of rules maintained by the FAA that prevented any industry participant from adopting this strategy as a cost-reduction measure.  With electricity producers, it’s spare capacity, not baseload capacity.  Everyone uses their baseload capacity effectively, but, to use your other analogy,  everyone also has to keep around some number of 86 Chevy vans to handle peak loads.  They don’t have to be fast, or slick, or good-looking, but they do have to be functioning Chevy vans that work first time you turn them on.  You have to pay for the upkeep for that spare capacity in advance. The problem is that there no longer seems to be rules about how much spare capacity you need to maintain.  So when you flew St. L – Detroit for $59 you could savor your deal without worrying if the wings were going to fall off.  But how confident are you going to be in the dog days of August that your computer / air conditioner / stove will be working at the end of the day? The situation may not be nearly as bad as I’m implying, because you’re right that it looks like there will be really big financial rewards for anyone who actually has spare capacity to bring on line in the middle of what may prove to be a very hot summer. Maybe we’ll be pleasantly surprised …. and maybe not. Policy Pete web site: http://qv3.com/policypete/policypete.htm | What happens to the new economy when there is insufficient | lectricity to run it? | | There may be temporary brownouts, unless a catastrophe happens | to wipe out part of the grid.  There is new capacity coming out | constantly.solar water heater india   With peak prices that we have seen over the last | two years, a lot of companies are looking really really hard at | getting new generation out FAST. | | Two years ago, summer prices peaked at about 340.00 per Megawatt | hour.  The electricity trading people were agog.  Last summer we | saw spot trading at $6000.00 per megawatt hour traded.  THAT | caused some of the bright finance boys to get in high gear and | commit some money to base load.  Salivating all the | delay in getting the base load they need, but since the demand | is there, the supply will follow. | | Why is electricity deregulation not producing adequate | generation capacity? | | A new generating plant costs hundreds of millions, sometimes | billions.  It’s usually cheaper to keep the old plant running | than build new.  Here is an analogy. | | You own a 1986 Chev. Van.  The engine is using oil, the shocks | are toast, the head gasket leaks, the brakes squeak, and the | rear differential leaks oil.  But the body and frame are sound. | You can have your van repaired to “Very Good” condition for much | less than a new one.  Trust me.  I know about this one. | | The concept of deregulation for our electricity is based upon | the airline and phone industry.  They too once had a “monopoly” | that got broken up.  The end result is that airline passengers | and phone users get lower costs because the companies had to | get “lean and mean” and compete with each other.  No doubt about | it.  It worked.  I flew from St. Louis to Detroit once for | $59.00. | | I am a bit circumspect about deregulation in the electrical | industry though.  First, they are supplying a basic human need, | NOT a luxury.  (IMHO, personal travel by flying and using the | phone at home is a luxury).  My point is that the need for | electricity is required for our way of life.  IF deregulation | causes base load generation to not be built, there is a long | lead time to correct it, and there will be a lot of hot, angry | people.  And some dead bodies from heat overexposure.solar water heater india

Response:

| The concept of deregulation for our electricity is based upon | the airline and phone industry.  They too once had a “monopoly” | that got broken up.  The end result is that airline passengers | and phone users get lower costs because the companies had to | get “lean and mean” and compete with each other.  No doubt about | it.  It worked.  I flew from St. Louis to Detroit once for | $59.00. The trouble with your utility-deregulation-is-like-airline-deregulation analogy concerns the hidden part that remained regulated.  For airlines it was safety.  An airline could cut costs, but they couldn’t stop maintaining their planes.  There was an elaborate series of rules that prevented any industry participant from adopting this strategy as a cost-reduction measure.  With electricity producers, it’s spare capacity, not baseload capacity.  Everyone uses their baseload capacity effectively, but, to use your other analogy,  everyone also has to keep around some number of 86 Chevy vans to handle peak loads.  They don’t have to be fast, or slick, or good-looking, but they do have to be functioning Chevy vans that work first time you turn them on.  You have to pay for the upkeep for that spare capacity in advance. solar water heater india

Response:

Has anyone been following the gas markets?  The gas price has been on a path straight up and is now above $3.20 Mcf.  Looks like the market’s betting that its going to be a really hot summer.  If so, EIA says there could be brownouts if its anything like last summer.  What happens to the new economy when there is insufficient electricity to run it?  Why is electricity deregulation not producing adequate generation capacity? solar water heater india

Response:

What happens to the new economy when there is insufficient lectricity to run it?

There may be temporary brownouts, unless a catastrophe happens to wipe out part of the grid.  There is new capacity coming out constantly.  With peak prices that we have seen over the last two years, a lot of companies are looking really really hard at getting new generation out FAST. Two years ago, summer prices peaked at about 340.00 per Megawatt hour.  The electricity trading people were agog.  Last summer we saw spot trading at $6000.00 per megawatt hour traded.  THAT caused some of the bright finance boys to get in high gear and commit some money to base load.  Salivating all the delay in getting the base load they need, but since the demand is there, the supply will follow. Why is electricity deregulation not producing adequate

generation capacity? A new generating plant costs hundreds of millions, sometimes billions.  It’s usually cheaper to keep the old plant running than build new.  Here is an analogy. You own a 1986 Chev. Van.  The engine is using oil, the shocks are toast, the head gasket leaks, the brakes squeak, and the rear differential leaks oil.  But the body and frame are sound. You can have your van repaired to “Very Good” condition for much less than a new one.  Trust me.  I know about this one. The concept of deregulation for our electricity is based upon the airline and phone industry.  They too once had a “monopoly” that got broken up.  The end result is that airline passengers and phone users get lower costs because the companies had to get “lean and mean” and compete with each other.  No doubt about it.  It worked. solar water heater india  I flew from St. Louis to Detroit once for $59.00. I am a bit circumspect about deregulation in the electrical industry though.  First, they are supplying a basic human need, NOT a luxury.  (IMHO, personal travel by flying and using the phone at home is a luxury).  My point is that the need for electricity is required for our way of life.  IF deregulation causes base load generation to not be built, there is a long lead time to correct it, and there will be a lot of hot, angry people.  And some dead bodies from heat overexposure. The argument on the other side is that the good operators will make electricity cheaper than the bad operators, and take out the bad operators due to competition.  Then the customer Additionally, I am concerned about the individual homeowner. Take a large customer, I’ll pick on McDonalds or Wal-Mart. Those companies as a corporation will use HUGE amounts of power,solar water heater india

Response:

Question:

I’m hoping some of the more experienced solar people can give me some advice on the use of solar collectors for heating water.  I saw an old system for sale this past weekend and I was wondering how much it might be worth.  It was a sytem made by Renalds Aluminum back in the 70’s, therefore the heat collectors, tubing, etc. was made of aluminum.solar water heater plans  The equipment had never used and was still in the box. I would guess that an aluminum system would not be as efficient as a copper system, and I also suspect that it would be more difficult to repair.solar water heater plans  Anybody have any opinions, experience with one of these?

Are you getting the complete system, controls, pumps, sensors,solar water heater plans and all?  Be aware that controls have made significant strides in the last couple of decades. Aluminum is about half as conductive as copper.solar water heater plans  It sounds like it is fairly easy to get used solar panels fairly

cheaply these days.  How much are they worth?  Are they worth the expense and effort or are there better methods today that make these system obsolete? If you want the fewest headaches, I would definitely get a new system. If you are the tinkerer type, used collectors are ok, as long as the glazing isn’t frosted (UV effect on plastic), the insulation compromised, the piping leaky and/or corroded, etc.  I would shy away from used controllers, sensors, and pumps. Some of the early systems were experiments; much has been learned since. Will Stewart

Response:

I’m hoping some of the more experienced solar people can give me some advice on the use of solar collectors for heating water.  I saw an old system for sale this past weekend and I was wondering how much it might be worth.solar water heater plans  It was a sytem made by Renalds Aluminum back in the 70’s, therefore the heat collectors, tubing, etc. was made of aluminum. The equipment had never used and was still in the box.solar water heater plans  I would guess that an aluminum system would not be as efficient as a copper system, and I also suspect that it would be more difficult to repair.solar water heater plans   Anybody have any opinions, experience with one of these?   It sounds like it is fairly easy to get used solar panels fairly cheaply these days.  How much are they worth?  Are they worth the expense and effort or are there better methods today that make these system obsolete? Thanks for any information. solar water heater plans

Response:

Question:

So I’d dearly love to go directly to a Bogor-bound flight (Garuda?).

Get a direct bus to Jakarta’s Gambir-train station (AC, about 3000 rp from Soukarno Hatta airport) takes about an hour. Then take the train (hourly schedule) to Bogor.solar water heater systems   Don’t even bother to spend time in Jakarta. And Bogor itself. Is there economical place to stay for 1 or 2 nights?

Plenty of them.  Try Arie’s (Ary’s ?)in the vicinity of the station or the Wisma Ramayana nearly oppose the post office. You definitely don’t need a hot shower in Indonesia.  Prices are about 7 dollar a night.solar water heater systems

Response:

So I’d dearly love to go directly to a Bogor-bound flight (Garuda?).

Take a DAMRI bus from the airport to GAMBIR traing station (setasiun kereta api). Cost: less than $2. Buy a ticket on the train to Bogor – a real 1-1/2 hour rattler Cost: about 30 cents.solar water heater systems  In Bogor, there are hotels of every price range. Back packers in Jkt stay  in the Jalan Jaksa area.solar water heater systems  Alway take the BLUEBIRD taxis from Jkt airport – ignore the taxi touts. good travelling Evan Jones Riau Islands Indonesia

Response:

Direct to Bogor? You’d probably be best off flying to Jakarta. You’re right, Jakarta is a   hustling metropole, noisy and smelly and the “orang Batawi”, the local   people, can be pretty aggressive, but the airport is big and quiet, and   if you can spare the expense you could take a taxi straight from there.   Bogor is not too far away from Jakarta.solar water heater systems

Response:

: I might need to go to the Agriculture Faculty there. I haven’t sniffed around : yet, I don’t know which airlines rrive at the International airport at which : times (coming from the USA).solar water heater systems  I have the impression that Jakarta is not the : calmest or cheapest place in the world to spend an overnight. So I’d dearly love : to go directly to a Bogor-bound flight (Garuda?). : And Bogor itself. Is there economical place to stay for 1 or 2 nights? All : I ask for is relative cleanliness and good security. A hot water shower : would be cool.solar water heater systems  Though based on my RP travels, somewhat affluent people in : SE Asia are wuite willing to spend ridiculous sums for highly-taxed VCR’s, : etc, but the thought never occurs to them to install a solar water heater. The universities are in Bogor and there are several hotels in Bogor that are a much better deal than Jakarta, should be able to get decent place for $70 or less even. Ask the folks that you are going to see for a recommendation of a nice guest house or similar. solar water heater systems

Response:

I might need to go to the Agriculture Faculty there. I haven’t sniffed around yet, I don’t know which airlines rrive at the International airport at which times (coming from the USA).solar water heater systems  I have the impression that Jakarta is not the calmest or cheapest place in the world to spend an overnight. So I’d dearly love to go directly to a Bogor-bound flight (Garuda?). And Bogor itself. Is there economical place to stay for 1 or 2 nights? All I ask for is relative cleanliness and good security.solar water heater systems  A hot water shower would be cool. Though based on my RP travels, somewhat affluent people in SE Asia are wuite willing to spend ridiculous sums for highly-taxed VCR’s, etc, but the thought never occurs to them to install a solar water heater. solar water heater systems

Response: