Question:
I have one solar hot water heater orlando question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure. 2. What size and type of battery pack would one need to support this? 3. What size and power generator would be needed? I know it would be quite large. I once visited a man in Iowa who had never gone on grid with his farm. He had ONE wind generator on the property. He had a room full of, some 90 years old, locomotive batteries that he used to support the farmhouse and the barn. He said all he ever put in the batteries for electolyte was potash and they never shorted out. It wasn’t a small house and it was a damn cold midweestern winter when I visited him. He also had made and eleectrolyzer and separator for hydrogen which he had piped to the house for stove gas use. He had made his own burners with tiny holes that wouldn’t blow back/out. What are some realistic numbers for use, thus generation and needed storage if you have say, a 25% duty cycle on your wind power for the 5000 sq/ft palace? solar hot water heater orlando
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solar hot water heater orlandoI have one question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure. 2. What size and type of battery pack would one need to support this? 3. What size and power generator would be needed? I know it would be quite large. I once visited a man in Iowa who had never gone on grid with his farm. He had ONE wind generator on the property. He had a room full of, some 90 years old, locomotive batteries that he used to support the farmhouse and the barn. He said all he ever put in the batteries for electolyte was potash and they never shorted out. It wasn’t a small house and it was a damn cold midweestern winter when I visited him. He also had made and eleectrolyzer and separator for hydrogen which he had piped to the house for stove gas use. He had made his own burners with tiny holes that wouldn’t blow back/out. What are some realistic numbers for use, thus generation and needed storage if you have say, a 25% duty cycle on your wind power for the 5000 sq/ft palace? solar hot water heater orlando
solar hot water heater orlandoThere are many ways to do this. Here is and example of some of today’s batteries which go by Amp hours. There are many companies that will help design your system.solar hot water heater orlando
Response:
You named off about 2500 to 3500 kw/hrs a month for the house. Vehicle would be 1500 kw/hrs each with a very rough estimate on usage….don’t know if your are commuting or just hopping over to??? Battery expense is higher than just buying a diesel rabbit instead for the car. 15 % is the number non-grid utilities companies use for usage vrs generator capacity.And TXU has some mighty big windgenerators out in West Texas. Not sure why,they use that large of power reserve,but they do..solar hot water heater orlando… What kind of backup/peaking power are you using?In case you have to repair the windmill or battery bank. Just tried to get you as near as I can on your mill with a steamer view point and some things like power will carry between the two methods of generation. Since a KW is a KW no matter what it comes out of. Got any resturants in the area might need to check out Steve on that bio diesel stuff of his……for both for the cars and the backup generator. Folks seem to think I got a screw loose to drive up with a steamer with lower emissions than the thing they are driving,,,,,flexible fuel source…..more range than any electric ever made between water stops plus water tanks fill faster than batteries….cheaper to build than a gas car and most alternative fuel cars….works without government money support. If it works ,is cleaner.To hell with PC and do your mill or what ever..solar hot water heater orlando….;lotof vested interest people on all sides more worryied about support money than what works for them. Wieght your answers carefully…… solar hot water heater orlandoI have one question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure. 2. What size and type of battery pack would one need to support this? 3. What size and power generator would be needed? I know it would be quite large. I once visited a man in Iowa who had never gone on grid with his farm. He had ONE wind generator on the property. He had a room full of, some 90 years old, locomotive batteries that he used to support the farmhouse and the barn. He said all he ever put in the batteries for electolyte was potash and they never shorted out. It wasn’t a small house and it was a damn cold midweestern winter when I visited him. He also had made and eleectrolyzer and separator for hydrogen which he had piped to the house for stove gas use. He had made his own burners with tiny holes that wouldn’t blow back/out. What are some realistic numbers for use, thus generation and needed storage if you have say, a 25% duty cycle on your wind power for the 5000 sq/ft palace?
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1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure.
[Given 10 cents per KWHR grid power, just for the sake of argument, scale for the energy source of your choice.] This is so nebulous that it’s going to be impossible to answer with any reasonable accuracy. If they live like our resident GigaWatt, it’ll cost about $50/month (*), if they live like (ahem) me, it’ll be $500/month. (*) Dunno what Gig’s mom would say if your 10 people showed up to do their laundry, but that’s a rathole. 8*) 5Ksqft/10 people sounds a little small, is this a giant family? How many {seniors,adults, children,babies} do you have in mind? Lights aren’t significant, laundry is going to be at least one load per day at a buck a load, say $30/month. Water heater (including showers) is about $3/month/person, $30/month Our hot tub adds about $100/month, a heated pool could be several times that unless it’s solar. Call the pool $250/month just to put a number on it. Why would 10 people have 12 electric vehicles? What kind of electric vehicles? Our golf carts cost [corrected to 10c/kwhr] $0.45 to charge from 70 percent $0.26 to charge from 80 percent $0.70 to charge from 30 percent $0.64 to charge from 30 percent Where a day takes them down to maybe 70 percent, say 35 cents per day per vehicle, or $125/month. So on the grid, you are talking about $535/month, or 5,350 KWHR/month, or an average draw of 7.5KW. Grid, generator, wind, solar, or other RE system will have different parameters, configurations, setup, and operations cost. A Trojan T-105 stores 5.2 KWHR and costs maybe $52, and you only want to use about 1/2 their capacity, so battery storage costs $20/KWHR. One day worth of storage is 180 KWHR, or $3,600 worth of batteries. Solar power is $5/watt installed, which gets you 5 WH/day, or a buck per watt hour per day. You need 180 KWHR/day, so a solar power system would cost on the order of $180K (plus batteries, electronics, etc). Just random thoughts, dont’ bother to nitpick or refine the numbers any further without better starting numbers. solar hot water heater orlando
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solar hot water heater orlando I have one question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure. 2. What size and type of battery pack would one need to support this? 3. What size and power generator would be needed? I know it would be quite large. I once visited a man in Iowa who had never gone on grid with his farm. He had ONE wind generator on the property. He had a room full of, some 90 years old, locomotive batteries that he used to support the farmhouse and the barn. He said all he ever put in the batteries for electolyte was potash and they never shorted out. It wasn’t a small house and it was a damn cold midweestern winter when I visited him. He also had made and eleectrolyzer and separator for hydrogen which he had piped to the house for stove gas use. He had made his own burners with tiny holes that wouldn’t blow back/out. What are some realistic numbers for use, thus generation and needed storage if you have say, a 25% duty cycle on your wind power for the 5000 sq/ft palace?
story more believeable if he was composting manure in barn and collecting methane for fuel.
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First, Thank you and others for your responses to my question. You named off about 2500 to 3500 kw/hrs a month for the house. Vehicle would be 1500 kw/hrs each with a very rough estimate on usage….don’t know if your are commuting or just hopping over to???
I suppose a reasonable assumption here would be 50-100 miles a day average use. I am trying to figure this system out for worst case moderate/high usage for the system in order to have over capascity rather than not enough. Some of the vehicles would be for farming use. Battery expense is higher than just buying a diesel rabbit instead for the car.
I understand. But them elecrics can go from 0 to 60 in about 4 seconds. I am assuming no petrol or fossil fuel use available for the system. More like a remote island location. Also not interested in the production of biofuel other than combstibles for steam power backup. Maybe a compost heating system for the hot tub and pool. I am trying to kep the system as simple and low maintenance as possible. The KISS principle. I am assuming 100 year life of the system wiithout repair parts available other than what can be made on site from scrap or emergency stockpile inventory of various metal stocks. Possibly home built electric or steam vehicles with minimum technology will be in order. 15 % is the number non-grid utilities companies use for usage vrs generator capacity.
Ok. Better to under estimate than over estimate. And TXU has some mighty big wind generators out in West Texas.
TXU? University? Not sure why,they use that large of power reserve,but they do….. What kind of backup/peaking power are you using?In case you have to repair the windmill or battery bank.
Well, enough to run refrigerators and the shop machinery in order to repair the broken generator and not melt my ice cubes for my scotch.
I don’t exactly know. I assumed they were needed to start the engines and for auxilary power like anf car needs. Just tried to get you as near as I can on your mill with a steamer view point and some things like power will carry between the two methods of generation.
Agaiin, I’d rather have too much of everything than not enough. Since a KW is a KW no matter what it comes out of. Got any resturants in the area might need to check out Steve on that bio diesel stuff of his……for both for the cars and the backup generator.
We are talking survival mode here. All the restaurants closed because we don’t get any imports until they build steam ships again and they find a replacement for dossil fuel derived fertilizers. All we have is wind, rain, sun, and jungle. Maybe a few farmer’s selling vegitable soup roadside. Folks seem to think I got a screw loose to drive up with a steamer with lower emissions than the thing they are driving,,,,,flexible fuel source…..more range than any electric ever made between water stops plus water tanks fill faster than batteries….cheaper to build than a gas car and most alternative fuel cars….works without government money support.
Sounds good. Any designs, pictures, references? As long as I can burn palm fronds to run it. If it works ,is cleaner.To hell with PC and do your mill or what ever……;lotof vested interest people on all sides more worryied about support money than what works for them. Wieght your answers carefully……
Did I weight them enough? I have one question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1.
solar hot water heater orlando
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We are talking survival mode here.
I’ve always thought this most interesting. Over several decades I’ve heard about ‘living off the land’. What comes to mind is 500 or more hunters per acre looking to shoot an occasional 40 pound deer. This is from the survivalist point of view, to mine… There is no ’survival mode’ without community. Your little household won’t make it in isolation, especially trying to drag the technology created by 6 billion people along. Feel lucky if you can dig an outhouse with a view, i.e., no door. But, belief is often so much more powerful than critical think’n when it comes to human nature. Good luck, Dan. — http://lakeweb.net http://ReserveAnalyst.com
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We are talking survival mode here. solar hot water heater orlandoAll the restaurants closed because we don’t get any imports until they build steam ships again and they find a replacement for dossil fuel derived fertilizers. All we have is wind, rain, sun, and jungle. Maybe a few farmer’s selling vegitable soup roadside.
There are many levels of survival from the very basic staying alive to having a reasonably civilised lifestyle in a worthwhile community. I guess you are trying to aim for the latter. Then I would like to do that too if the world went belly-up for the most part and I happened to be in a location that wasn’t touched very much by whatever the disaster. In the meantime I will continue to provide my high-tech solutions to the Fusion Energy and Transport fields. In thinking about the “what if……” scenarios I am certain that I am resourceful enough to be able to survive well enough to be able to begin to improve my lifestyle. Hot tubs may be sooner on the agenda than gaining electrical power though. In the UK we have a programme called “Desert Island Discs” in which a celebrity castaway is asked to select 8 records and a book that they would endeavour to save from their belongings on abandoning ship. They also get allowed one luxury item which should have no practical use. The presenter always asks how the celebrity think they would fare in surviving an extensive period on this hypothetical desert island. If we get to the level of reasonably civilised survivsal then I would certainly try and get electricity going from any available fuel source going. That would include generators running from wave/tidal motions, hot up-drafts from solar pools, water flow due to differential pressure, waste to heat options (including dealing with the sewerage). As for supplying food, I suppose that hydroponics and composted bedding areas for plants would be one way to go. There would need to be some consideration of livestock for food (Sorry guys, I feel I need my meat protiens). It would also be nice if all of what each person needs could be accomplished in less than 1 hectare per person. I would also hope that, after a while, there would be some time to enjoy some leisure activities. Would I need a car?? NO!! Incidently has anyone tried that inane ecological footprint calculator. If not it is at http://www.ecologicalfootprint.com/ — Forth based HIDECS Consultancy …..<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/ Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 …. see http://www.feabhas.com for details. Going Forth Safely .solar hot water heater orlando
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I am assuming no petrol or fossil fuel use available for the system. More like a remote island location. Also not interested in the production of biofuel other than combstables for steam power backup. Maybe a compost heating system for the hot tub and pool. I am trying to keep the system as simple and low maintenance as possible. The KISS principle. You really need to make up your mind. KISS and hot tub, pool, etc just don’t go together.
And keeping the amenities simple to maintain means I can’t have them? No pleasures and relaxation? No simple pleasues? Why are they mutaully exclusive? Why do you think the Romans and Greeks built things to last a thousand years? They had a thing called vision and foresight. As Dan mentioned, this just isn’t going to fly.
Is that what he said? What he said was the paniced hordes would make the concept unfeasable due to the law of supply and demand, overpopulation, and the lack of preparedness of immediate neighbors. He’s assuming there is only one smart person on the block and no one will follow his example. That is his belief. He’s entitled to it. There are those who believe that they can get away without preparing and just steal what they want if/when the time comes. Many will likely die trying this approach. It’s not for me. Many will drown in my 500 mile wide mote. Many will eat lead and then be eaten for lunch by the dogs. In talking about keeping it simple I meant as to THE USE of numerous and various possible energy fueling modes. A compost heating system for a hot tub or pool is more simple and low tech than an electric system that can break and wear out but (maybe) not as low maintenance as a simple steam or passive solar heating system with electric or steam boost. The point of simplicity is one power mode for the whole compound being electric, meaning only one system or a part thereof to break down, and only the minimal knowledge, machinery, spare materials, and labor to maintain it as opposed to more diverse systems needing more knowledge, time, technology, and other resources to maintain. Get it yet Einstein? I am assuming 100 year life of the system wiithout repair parts available other than what can be made on site from scrap or emergency stockpile inventory of various metal stocks. Possibly home built electric or steam vehicles with minimum technology will be in order. You can’t reinvent complex technology (refrigeration, vehicles, scotch) with “stuff lying around”. .
. You need reading comprehension lessons. Who said I would reinvent anything? There are many simple off the shelf devices that will do the job without all the high tech bells and whistles. If the world collapses there will be millions if not billions of refrigerators laying around. There are many 50 old ones around still operable today. There are steam engines older than anyone alive still running and easy to repair. You can make a vehicle to get around with a lawn mower motor. I want low tech, easily repaired, low maintenance, high reliabilty, long life technology. I said I would have scrap or an inventory of emergency materials for projected system component break downs. The more simple the system the less numerous types of these things needed. How hard do you think it would be to get parts for a 1961 Beetle if they were still built basically the same as a simple standard for the last 45 years with interchangeable parts? We have all bought into planned obsolesence because we want more convenience and bells and whistles to satisfy our vanity. Vanity is not cheap or reliable. Consume-r = Big business CONS-U+ ME. The more technology, the more to break. How many cheap cordless phones have you gone through in the last 20 years? I have a pulse dial phone that is forty years old that works when the power goes off. Ever tried to use a cordless during a blackout? It doesn’t even make sense to maintain and care for a car and make it last more than ten years any more unless it was a very very popular model. You can’t hardly get parts. One is better off with a 66 Mustang that sold a few million units and are in people’s backyards and the junkyards have piles of parts for because they were popular, forget having any other twenty or forty year old car made since then. Planned obsolesence rules. I want a solid, standardized, simple system. All we have is wind, rain, sun, and jungle. You can’t keep a machine shop running with just a machine shop.
Great rhetoric. Necessity is the mother of invention. If the lathe breaks down all I need is a spinning chuck. How many ways can it be done? I didn’t say I’d be 1000 miles from nowhere. There will always be others with machines within reasonable distance. You think I’m the only person on earth thinking about doing this? Ever heard of the 100th monkey? Try the survival newsgroups.
This project has many aspects. The respectful valid information input here is only part of it. Nice try at deriding the concept model. I won’t have to make Scotch if I buy 200 gallons. At todays prices it could be a real bargain in 20 years. My Great Grandchildren can drink 100 and twenty five year old Chevas. Or I can get all the neighbors drunk and then kill them and eat them.
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I wonder if your farmer and/or you is aware that hydrogen flames are not visible?
And what does this COMMON KNOWLEDGE which I likely have had longer than you have been alive have to do with the proof of him, his off grid system, and my visit? Do you expect me to have kept my 14 year old plane ticket to Iowa, car rental receipt, lunch receipt, then scan them along with my photos of him and his electrolyzer, get copyright permission from NBC News to put my copy of the NATIONAL news story about him all on a web page to prove it to a little shit like YOU. That, alone, renders your story unbelievable. J.
So what kind of gas was coming from the WATER in his electrolyzer which was put into the tanks and piped to his house and burned? I suppose he had secret “Harry Conover Pipes” everywhere just so this lonely 90 year old man could get people like me to fly 1500 miles to visit him because no one will talk to him? By the way dipshit, when you burn hydrogen in open AIR it mixes with the AIR and burns PARTICLES in the AIR that you can SEE if the room is dark and you open your eyes. This is especially true if you are as half smart as you think you are and PURPOSEFULLY mix the VERY HOT hyd/ox gases with ambient AIR in order to mix the gases down to the temperature of natural gas so you don’t burn your dinner or your brain, depending on what you are frying. Jesus, where do these punks come from? You’re a real hotshot aren’t you? You musta gradgiated from the Donny Lambaster school of Rebunking.solar hot water heater orlando I have one question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure. 2. What size and type of battery pack would one need to support this? 3. What size and power generator would be needed? I know it would be quite large. I once visited a man in Iowa who had never gone on grid with his farm. He had ONE wind generator on the property. He had a room full of, some 90 years old, locomotive batteries that he used to support the farmhouse and the barn. He said all he ever put in the batteries for electolyte was potash and they never shorted out. It wasn’t a small house and it was a damn cold midweestern winter when I visited him. He also had made and electrolyzer and separator for hydrogen which he had piped to the house for stove gas use. He had made his own burners with tiny holes that wouldn’t blow back/out. What are some realistic numbers for use, thus generation and needed storage if you have say, a 25% duty cycle on your wind power for the 5000 sq/ft palace?
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solar hot water heater orlando
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Well, to give your crap a serious answer. Fire Fighting Heat, open flames, electrical sparks, and static electricity easily ignite hydrogen. It will burn with a pale blue, almost invisible flame. Most hydrogen fires will have the flame characteristic of a torch or jet and will originate at the point where the hydrogen is discharging. If a leak is suspected in any part of a system, a hydrogen flame can be detected by cautiously approaching with an outstretched broom, lifting it up and down. The most effective way to fight a hydrogen fire is to shut off the flow of gas. If it is necessary to extinguish the flame in order to get to a place where the flow of hydrogen can be shut off, a dry powder extinguisher is recommended. However, if the fire is extinguished without stopping the flow of gas, an explosive mixture may form, creating a more serious hazard than the fire itself should re-ignition occur from the hot surfaces or other sources. The usual fire fighting practice is to prevent the fire from spreading and let it burn until the hydrogen is consumed. Dry powder fire extinguishers should be available in the area. A fire blanket should be conveniently located. An adequate water supply should be available to keep surrounding equipment cool in the event of a hydrogen fire. The local fire department should be advised of the nature of the products handled and made aware of the best known methods for combating hydrogen fires. http://www-safety.deas.harvard.edu/services/hydrogen.html I repeat, your story is just not believeable. BTW, Harry Conover, and Don Lancaster are far more credible than you. j. BTW, I am not familiar with a battery that uses potash for an electrolyte. Can you elucidate? j. solar hot water heater orlando I wonder if your farmer and/or you is aware that hydrogen flames are not visible? And what does this COMMON KNOWLEDGE which I likely have had longer than you have been alive have to do with the proof of him, his off grid system, and my visit? Do you expect me to have kept my 14 year old plane ticket to Iowa, car rental receipt, lunch receipt, then scan them along with my photos of him and his electrolyzer, get copyright permission from NBC News to put my copy of the NATIONAL news story about him all on a web page to prove it to a little shit like YOU. That, alone, renders your story unbelievable. J. So what kind of gas was coming from the WATER in his electrolyzer which was put into the tanks and piped to his house and burned? I suppose he had secret “Harry Conover Pipes” everywhere just so this lonely 90 year old man could get people like me to fly 1500 miles to visit him because no one will talk to him? By the way dipshit, when you burn hydrogen in open AIR it mixes with the AIR and burns PARTICLES in the AIR that you can SEE if the room is dark and you open your eyes. This is especially true if you are as half smart as you think you are and PURPOSEFULLY mix the VERY HOT hyd/ox gases with ambient AIR in order to mix the gases down to the temperature of natural gas so you don’t burn your dinner or your brain, depending on what you are frying. Jesus, where do these punks come from? You’re a real hotshot aren’t you? You musta gradgiated from the Donny Lambaster school of Rebunking. I have one question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure. 2. What size and type of battery pack would one need to support this? 3. What size and power generator would be needed? I know it would be quite large. I once visited a man in Iowa who had never gone on grid with his farm. He had ONE wind generator on the property. He had a room full of, some 90 years old, locomotive batteries that he used to support the farmhouse and the barn. He said all he ever put in the batteries for electolyte was potash and they never shorted out. It wasn’t a small house and it was a damn cold midweestern winter when I visited him. He also had made and electrolyzer and separator for hydrogen which he had piped to the house for stove gas use. He had made his own burners with tiny holes that wouldn’t blow back/out. What are some realistic numbers for use, thus generation and needed storage if you have say, a 25% duty cycle on your wind power for the 5000 sq/ft palace?
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solar hot water heater orlando
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<snip BTW, I am not familiar with a battery that uses potash for an electrolyte. Can you elucidate? Maybe nickel-iron? http://www.tidepool.com/~ecar/ni-fe.htm Regards, Bill Ward
Another nonsensical claim is the lifetime of a battery of many decades. I used in my lab very high quality low discharge cells that were made with very pure ingredients and they have a lifetime of a couple of decades. After a while materials from the electrodes tend to flake off the electrodes and these cause a discharge path at the bottom of a cell. There are severe limitations on the number of charge discharge cycles you can coax out of a rechargable cell. FK solar hot water heater orlando
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BTW, I am not familiar with a battery that uses potash for an electrolyte. Can you elucidate?
See Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH)batterys. This is the battery technology that generally has replaced NiCads in most of today’s better quality portable power tools. http://www/panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/o,ages/pdf/panasonic_… http://www.cea.fr/gb/publications/Clefs44/an-clefs44/clefs4470a.html Harry C.
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BTW, I am not familiar with a battery that uses potash for an electrolyte. Can you elucidate? See Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH)batterys. This is the battery technology that generally has replaced NiCads in most of today’s better quality portable power tools. http://www/panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/o,ages/pdf/panasonic_… http://www.cea.fr/gb/publications/Clefs44/an-clefs44/clefs4470a.html
The edison cell is not in the same class as nicads even if the chemistry is similar. Banks of edison cells are extremely durable and show an exceptional life. They are typically used in industrial applications. I’ve seen whole rooms filled with these batteries and they do last for decades. The one advantage Nimh has over nicads is lack of memory. I always run my nicads empty before recharging but a lot of folks don’t know this. But with two packs I can work full out because you can charge nicads very fast. You don’t have this luxury with nimh. They say they have done well lately with the service life of nimh but I haven’t seen that personally. Harry C.
Best, Dan. — http://lakeweb.net http://ReserveAnalyst.com
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I was wondering if Your Worst Night etc has any idea. I believe his alleged battery was 90 years old or so, (predating nickel cadmium, etc.) J. Any idea for battery technology of 90 years ago? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, I am not familiar with a battery that uses potash for an electrolyte. Can you elucidate? See Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH)batterys. This is the battery technology that generally has replaced NiCads in most of today’s better quality portable power tools. http://www/panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/o,ages/pdf/panasonic_… http://www.cea.fr/gb/publications/Clefs44/an-clefs44/clefs4470a.html Harry C.
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solar hot water heater orlando BTW, I am not familiar with a battery that uses potash for an electrolyte. Can you elucidate? See Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH)batterys. This is the battery technology that generally has replaced NiCads in most of today’s better quality portable power tools. http://www/panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/o,ages/pdf/panasonic_… http://www.cea.fr/gb/publications/Clefs44/an-clefs44/clefs4470a.html The edison cell is not in the same class as nicads even if the chemistry is similar. Banks of edison cells are extremely durable and show an exceptional life. They are typically used in industrial applications. I’ve seen whole rooms filled with these batteries and they do last for decades.
I believe the energy density of nickel-iron is negligible. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
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The edison cell is not in the same class as nicads even if the chemistry is similar. Banks of edison cells are extremely durable and show an exceptional life. They are typically used in industrial applications. I’ve seen whole rooms filled with these batteries and they do last for decades. I believe the energy density of nickel-iron is negligible.
Would you quantify ‘negligible’? Or, what does it matter where the battery is applicable? Or, is this post just more blatant litter? Best, Dan. — http://lakeweb.net http://ReserveAnalyst.com
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The edison cell is not in the same class as nicads even if the chemistry is similar. Banks of edison cells are extremely durable and show an exceptional life. They are typically used in industrial applications. I’ve seen whole rooms filled with these batteries and they do last for decades. I believe the energy density of nickel-iron is negligible. Would you quantify ‘negligible’? Or, what does it matter where the battery is applicable? Or, is this post just more blatant litter? Best, Dan. –
Corey Says- Listening to these geniuses you would think it is impossible to get off of the grid! In 1941 my family installed a Wind Charger That never failed for the 7 years they used it. They used a bank of 16 lead batteries full of acid to store the electricity. The generator was only used 2 or 3 times through the 7 years. The batteries never failed. The reasons they quit using it was… 1. The Ural Electrification Association came through and made it possible to connect to the grid. 2. They didn’t have Inverters back then, so they had to have all new appliances changed from 115 VAC to 32 VDC. 3. Their was no automation so you had to check the little floating balls in the batteries to see if the wind charger had to be turned on or off. If you don’t have enough wind you now use Photo cells. Photo cells can also be used with Wind Chargers to cover intermittent wind areas.
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solar hot water heater orlandoThe edison cell is not in the same class as nicads even if the chemistry is similar. Banks of edison cells are extremely durable and show an exceptional life. They are typically used in industrial applications. I’ve seen whole rooms filled with these batteries and they do last for decades. I believe the energy density of nickel-iron is negligible. Would you quantify ‘negligible’? Or, what does it matter where the battery is applicable? Or, is this post just more blatant litter? Best, Dan. — Corey Says- Listening to these geniuses you would think it is impossible to get off of the grid! In 1941 my family installed a Wind Charger That never failed for the 7 years they used it. They used a bank of 16 lead batteries full of acid to store the electricity. The generator was only used 2 or 3 times through the 7 years. The batteries never failed. The reasons they quit using it was… 1. The Ural Electrification Association came through and made it possible to connect to the grid. 2. They didn’t have Inverters back then, so they had to have all new appliances changed from 115 VAC to 32 VDC. 3. Their was no automation so you had to check the little floating balls in the batteries to see if the wind charger had to be turned on or off. If you don’t have enough wind you now use Photo cells. Photo cells can also be used with Wind Chargers to cover intermittent wind areas.
Well said Corey. Genius’s never seem to have common sense. There are some places in this country that did not gain an electric grid untill the 1950’s. You would think listening to these guys that living off the grid and supplying your own power is akin to a moonshot. Guess that’s the ultimate in technology. Obfuscation to keep the Genius’s in charge. Amazing how well my 16- L-16 lead acid batteries, 2 wind chargers, 8 PV’s and 2 – 4kw inverters power my house. Guys, it doesn’t have to be this complicated. Just do it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
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I have one question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure. 2. What size and type of battery pack would one need to support this? 3. What size and power generator would be needed? I know it would be quite large. I once visited a man in Iowa who had never gone on grid with his farm. He had ONE wind generator on the property. He had a room full of, some 90 years old, locomotive batteries that he used to support the farmhouse and the barn. He said all he ever put in the batteries for electolyte was potash and they never shorted out. It wasn’t a small house and it was a damn cold midweestern winter when I visited him. He also had made and eleectrolyzer and separator for hydrogen which he had piped to the house for stove gas use. He had made his own burners with tiny holes that wouldn’t blow back/out. What are some realistic numbers for use, thus generation and needed storage if you have say, a 25% duty cycle on your wind power for the 5000 sq/ft palace?
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solar hot water heater orlandoI have one question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure. 2. What size and type of battery pack would one need to support this? 3. What size and power generator would be needed? I know it would be quite large. I once visited a man in Iowa who had never gone on grid with his farm. He had ONE wind generator on the property. He had a room full of, some 90 years old, locomotive batteries that he used to support the farmhouse and the barn. He said all he ever put in the batteries for electolyte was potash and they never shorted out. It wasn’t a small house and it was a damn cold midweestern winter when I visited him. He also had made and eleectrolyzer and separator for hydrogen which he had piped to the house for stove gas use. He had made his own burners with tiny holes that wouldn’t blow back/out. What are some realistic numbers for use, thus generation and needed storage if you have say, a 25% duty cycle on your wind power for the 5000 sq/ft palace?
Corey Says- There are many ways to do this. Here is and example of some of today’s batteries which go by Amp hours. There are many companies that will help design your system. http://altenergystore.com/cart/1565.html end.
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You named off about 2500 to 3500 kw/hrs a month for the house. Vehicle would be 1500 kw/hrs each with a very rough estimate on usage….don’t know if your are commuting or just hopping over to??? Battery expense is higher than just buying a diesel rabbit instead for the car. 15 % is the number non-grid utilities companies use for usage vrs generator capacity.And TXU has some mighty big windgenerators out in West Texas. Not sure why,they use that large of power reserve,but they do….. What kind of backup/peaking power are you using?In case you have to repair the windmill or battery bank. Just tried to get you as near as I can on your mill with a steamer view point and some things like power will carry between the two methods of generation. Since a KW is a KW no matter what it comes out of. Got any resturants in the area might need to check out Steve on that bio diesel stuff of his……for both for the cars and the backup generator. Folks seem to think I got a screw loose to drive up with a steamer with lower emissions than the thing they are driving,,,,,flexible fuel source…..more range than any electric ever made between water stops plus water tanks fill faster than batteries….cheaper to build than a gas car and most alternative fuel cars….works without government money support. If it works ,is cleaner.To hell with PC and do your mill or what ever……;lotof vested interest people on all sides more worryied about support money than what works for them. Wieght your answers carefully…… solar hot water heater orlando I have one question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure. 2. What size and type of battery pack would one need to support this? 3. What size and power generator would be needed? I know it would be quite large. I once visited a man in Iowa who had never gone on grid with his farm. He had ONE wind generator on the property. He had a room full of, some 90 years old, locomotive batteries that he used to support the farmhouse and the barn. He said all he ever put in the batteries for electolyte was potash and they never shorted out. It wasn’t a small house and it was a damn cold midweestern winter when I visited him. He also had made and eleectrolyzer and separator for hydrogen which he had piped to the house for stove gas use. He had made his own burners with tiny holes that wouldn’t blow back/out. What are some realistic numbers for use, thus generation and needed storage if you have say, a 25% duty cycle on your wind power for the 5000 sq/ft palace?
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1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure.
[Given 10 cents per KWHR grid power, just for the sake of argument, scale for the energy source of your choice.] solar hot water heater orlando This is so nebulous that it’s going to be impossible to answer with any reasonable accuracy. If they live like our resident GigaWatt, it’ll cost about $50/month (*), if they live like (ahem) me, it’ll be $500/month. (*) Dunno what Gig’s mom would say if your 10 people showed up to do their laundry, but that’s a rathole. 8*) 5Ksqft/10 people sounds a little small, is this a giant family? How many {seniors,adults, children,babies} do you have in mind? Lights aren’t significant, laundry is going to be at least one load per day at a buck a load, say $30/month. Water heater (including showers) is about $3/month/person, $30/month Our hot tub adds about $100/month, a heated pool could be several times that unless it’s solar. Call the pool $250/month just to put a number on it. Why would 10 people have 12 electric vehicles? What kind of electric vehicles? Our golf carts cost [corrected to 10c/kwhr] $0.45 to charge from 70 percent $0.26 to charge from 80 percent $0.70 to charge from 30 percent $0.64 to charge from 30 percent Where a day takes them down to maybe 70 percent, say 35 cents per day per vehicle, or $125/month. So on the grid,solar hot water heater orlando you are talking about $535/month, or 5,350 KWHR/month, or an average draw of 7.5KW. Grid, generator, wind, solar, or other RE system will have different parameters, configurations, setup, and operations cost. A Trojan T-105 stores 5.2 KWHR and costs maybe $52, and you only want to use about 1/2 their capacity, so battery storage costs $20/KWHR. One day worth of storage is 180 KWHR, or $3,600 worth of batteries. Solar power is $5/watt installed, which gets you 5 WH/day, or a buck per watt hour per day. You need 180 KWHR/day, so a solar power system would cost on the order of $180K (plus batteries, electronics, etc). Just random thoughts, dont’ bother to nitpick or refine the numbers any further without better starting numbers. solar hot water heater orlando
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solar hot water heater orlando I have one question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure. 2. What size and type of battery pack would one need to support this? 3. What size and power generator would be needed? I know it would be quite large. I once visited a man in Iowa who had never gone on grid with his farm. He had ONE wind generator on the property. He had a room full of, some 90 years old, locomotive batteries that he used to support the farmhouse and the barn. He said all he ever put in the batteries for electolyte was potash and they never shorted out. It wasn’t a small house and it was a damn cold midweestern winter when I visited him. He also had made and eleectrolyzer and separator for hydrogen which he had piped to the house for stove gas use. He had made his own burners with tiny holes that wouldn’t blow back/out. What are some realistic numbers for use, thus generation and needed storage if you have say, a 25% duty cycle on your wind power for the 5000 sq/ft palace?
story more believeable if he was composting manure in barn and collecting methane for fuel.
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First, Thank you and others for your responses to my question. You named off about 2500 to 3500 kw/hrs a month for the house. Vehicle would be 1500 kw/hrs each with a very rough estimate on usage….don’t know if your are commuting or just hopping over to??? solar hot water heater orlando
I suppose a reasonable assumption here would be 50-100 miles a day average use. I am trying to figure this system out for worst case moderate/high usage for the system in order to have over capascity rather than not enough. Some of the vehicles would be for farming use. Battery expense is higher than just buying a diesel rabbit instead for the car.
I understand. But them elecrics can go from 0 to 60 in about 4 seconds. I am assuming no petrol or fossil fuel use available for the system. More like a remote island location. Also not interested in the production of biofuel other than combstibles for steam power backup. Maybe a compost heating system for the hot tub and pool. I am trying to kep the system as simple and low maintenance as possible. The KISS principle. I am assuming 100 year life of the system wiithout repair parts available other than what can be made on site from scrap or emergency stockpile inventory of various metal stocks. Possibly home built electric or steam vehicles with minimum technology will be in order. 15 % is the number non-grid utilities companies use for usage vrs generator capacity.
Ok. Better to under estimate than over estimate. And TXU has some mighty big wind generators out in West Texas.
TXU? University? Not sure why,they use that large of power reserve,but they do….. What kind of backup/peaking power are you using?In case you have to repair the windmill or battery bank.
Well, enough to run refrigerators and the shop machinery in order to repair the broken generator and not melt my ice cubes for my scotch.
I don’t exactly know. I assumed solar hot water heater orlando they were needed to start the engines and for auxilary power like anf car needs. Just tried to get you as near as I can on your mill with a steamer view point and some things like power will carry between the two methods of generation.
Agaiin, I’d rather have too much of everything than not enough. Since a KW is a KW no matter what it comes out of. Got any resturants in the area might need to check out Steve on that bio diesel stuff of his……for both for the cars and the backup generator.
We are talking survival mode here. All the restaurants closed because we don’t get any imports until they build steam ships again and they find a replacement for dossil fuel derived fertilizers. All we have is wind, rain, sun, and jungle. Maybe a few farmer’s selling vegitable soup roadside. Folks seem to think I got a screw loose to drive up with a steamer with lower emissions than the thing they are driving,,,,,flexible fuel source…..more range than any electric ever made between water stops plus water tanks fill faster than batteries….cheaper to build than a gas car and most alternative fuel cars….works without government money support.
Sounds good. Any designs, pictures, references? As long as I can burn palm fronds to run it. If it works ,is cleaner.To hell with PC and do your mill or what ever……;lotof vested interest people on all sides more worryied about support money than what works for them. Wieght your answers carefully……
Did I weight them enough? I have one question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1.
solar hot water heater orlando
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We are talking survival mode here.
I’ve always thought this most interesting. Over several decades I’ve heard about ‘living off the land’. What comes to mind is 500 or more hunters per acre looking to shoot an occasional 40 pound deer. This is from the survivalist point of view, to mine… There is no ’survival mode’ without community. Your little household won’t make it in isolation, especially trying to drag the technology created by 6 billion people along. Feel lucky if you can dig an outhouse with a view, i.e., no door. But, belief is often so much more powerful than critical think’n when it comes to human nature. Good luck, solar hot water heater orlando
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A Trojan T-105 stores 5.2 KWHR…
Or maybe 6 V x 225 Ah = 1,350 Wh, ie 1.35 kWh. and costs maybe $52, and you only want to use about 1/2 their capacity, so battery storage costs $20/KWHR. One day worth of storage is 180 KWHR, or $3,600 worth of batteries.
Or maybe 5.2/1.35×3600 = $13.9K. And Trojan’s T-105 DOD vs #cyc curve shows about 750 cycles at 100% DOD (Lifetime Energy Units = 473 kWh, with an effective capacity of 473/750 = 0.631 kWh per 100% cycle) and 1000 at 70% (LEU = 441 kWh) and 1500 at 42% (LEU = 397 kWh), so CYC = 2250-1786DOD, and a T-105 should last about 1357 cycles at 50% DOD and store 410 kWh (at $52/410 = 12.7 cents/kWh, just for the ongoing battery cost) over its lifetime, with a battery replacement cost of about 180×0.127 = $22.80 per day. Nick
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I am assuming no petrol or fossil fuel use available for the system. More like a remote island location. Also not interested in the production of biofuel other than combstibles for steam power backup. Maybe a compost heating system for the hot tub and pool. I am trying to kep the system as simple and low maintenance as possolar hot water heater orlando
You really need to make up your mind. KISS and hot tub, pool, etc just don’t go together. As Dan mentioned, this just isn’t going to fly. I am assuming 100 year life of the system wiithout repair parts available other than what can be made on site from scrap or emergency stockpile inventory of various metal stocks. Possibly home built electric or steam vehicles with minimum technology will be in order.
You can’t reinvent complex technology (refrigeration, vehicles, scotch) with “stuff lying around”. All we have is wind, rain, sun, and jungle.
You can’t keep a machine shop running with just a machine shop. Try the survival newsgroups. solar hot water heater orlando
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A Trojan T-105 stores 5.2 KWHR… Or maybe 6 V x 225 Ah = 1,350 Wh, ie 1.35 kWh.
Ah, I was reading their golf cart sheet, and they were scaling up to a 36-volt battery bank. Call it 5.2/6 (at the 75-amp rate). replacement cost of about 180×0.127 = $22.80 per day.
solar hot water heater orlando
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I wonder if your farmer and/or you is aware that hydrogen flames are not visible? That, alone, renders your story unbelievable. J. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have one question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure. 2. What size and type of battery pack would one need to support this? 3. What size and power generator would be needed?solar hot water heater orlando I know it would be quite large. I once visited a man in Iowa who had never gone on grid with his farm. He had ONE wind generator on the property. He had a room full of, some 90 years old, locomotive batteries that he used to support the farmhouse and the barn. He said all he ever put in the batteries for electolyte was potash and they never shorted out. It wasn’t a small house and it was a damn cold midweestern winter when I visited him. He also had made and eleectrolyzer and separator for hydrogen which he had piped to the house for stove gas use. He had made his own burners with tiny holes that wouldn’t blow back/out. What are some realistic numbers for use, thus generation and needed storage if you have say, a 25% duty cycle on your wind power for the 5000 sq/ft palace?
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We are talking survival mode here. All the restaurants closed because we don’t get any imports until they build steam ships again and they find a replacement for dossil fuel derived fertilizers. All we have is wind, rain, sun, and jungle. Maybe a few farmer’s selling vegitable soup roadside.
There are many levels of survival from the very basic staying alive to having a reasonably civilised lifestyle in a worthwhile community. I guess you are trying to aim for the latter. Then I would like to do that too if the world went belly-up for the most part and I happened to be in a location that wasn’t touched very much by whatever the disaster. In the meantime I will continue to provide my high-tech solutions to the Fusion Energy and Transport fields. In thinking about the “what if……” scenarios I am certain that I am resourceful enough to be able to survive well enough to be able to begin to improve my lifestyle. Hot tubs may be sooner on the agenda than gaining electrical power though. In the UK we have a programme called “Desert Island Discs” in which a celebrity castaway is asked to select 8 records and a book that they would endeavour to save from their belongings on abandoning ship. They also get allowed one luxury item which should have no practical use. The presenter always asks how the celebrity think they would fare in surviving an extensive period on this hypothetical desert island. If we get to the level of reasonably civilised survivsal then I would certainly try and get electricity going from any available fuel source going. That would include generators running from wave/tidal motions, hot up-drafts from solar pools, water flow due to differential pressure, waste to heat options (including dealing with the sewerage). As for supplying food, I suppose that hydroponics and composted bedding areas for plants would be one way to go. There would need to be some consideration of livestock for food (Sorry guys, I feel I need my meat protiens). It would also be nice if all of what each person needs could be accomplished in less than 1 hectare per person. I would also hope that, after a while, there would be some time to enjoy some leisure activities. Would I need a car?? NO!! Incidently has anyone tried that inane ecological footprint calculator. If not it is at http://www.ecologicalfootprint.com/ — Forth based HIDECS Consultancy …..<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/ Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 …. see http://www.feabhas.com for details. Going Forth Safely ….. EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
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I am assuming no petrol or fossil fuel use available for the system. More like a remote island location. Also not interested in the production of biofuel other than combstables for steam power backup. Maybe a compost heating system for the hot tub and pool. I am trying to keep the system as simple and low maintenance as possible. The KISS principle. You really need to make up your mind. KISS and hot tub, pool, etc just don’t go together.
And keeping the amenities simple to maintain means I can’t have them? No pleasures and relaxation? No simple pleasues? Why are they mutaully exclusive? Why do you think the Romans and Greeks built things to last a thousand years? They had a thing called vision and foresight. As Dan mentioned, this just isn’t going to fly.
Is that what he said? What he said was the paniced hordes would make the concept unfeasable due to the law of supply and demand, overpopulation, and the lack of preparedness of immediate neighbors. He’s assuming there is only one smart person on the block and no one will follow his example. That is his belief. He’s entitled to it. There are those who believe that they can get away without preparing and just steal what they want if/when the time comes. Many will likely die trying this approach. It’s not for me. Many will drown in my 500 mile wide mote. Many will eat lead and then be eaten for lunch by the dogs. In talking about keeping it simple I meant as to THE USE of numerous and various possible energy fueling modes. A compost heating system for a hot tub or pool is more simple and low tech than an electric system that can break and wear out but (maybe) not as low maintenance as a simple steam or passive solar heating system with electric or steam boost. The point of simplicity is one power mode for the whole compound being electric, meaning only one system or a part thereof to break down, and only the minimal knowledge, machinery, spare materials, and labor to maintain it as opposed to more diverse systems needing more knowledge, time, technology, and other resources to maintain. Get it yet Einstein? I am assuming 100 year life of the system wiithout repair parts available other than what can be made on site from scrap or emergency stockpile inventory of various metal stocks. Possibly home built electric or steam vehicles with minimum technology will be in order. You can’t reinvent complex technology (refrigeration, vehicles, scotch) with “stuff lying around”. .
. You need reading comprehension lessons. Who said I would reinvent anything? There are many simple off the shelf devices that will do the job without all the high tech bells and whistles. If the world collapses there will be millions if not billions of refrigerators laying around. There are many 50 old ones around still operable today. There are steam engines older than anyone alive still running and easy to repair. You can make a vehicle to get around with a lawn mower motor. I want low tech, easily repaired, low maintenance, high reliabilty, long life technology. I said I would have scrap or an inventory of emergency materials for projected system component break downs. The more simple the system the less numerous types of these things needed. How hard do you think it would be to get parts for a 1961 Beetle if they were still built basically the same as a simple standard for the last 45 years with interchangeable parts? We have all bought into planned obsolesence because we want more convenience and bells and whistles to satisfy our vanity. Vanity is not cheap or reliable. Consume-r = Big business CONS-U+ ME. The more technology, the more to break. How many cheap cordless phones have you gone through in the last 20 years? I have a pulse dial phone that is forty years old that works when the power goes off. Ever tried to use a cordless during a blackout? It doesn’t even make sense to maintain and care for a car and make it last more than ten years any more unless it was a very very popular model. You can’t hardly get parts. One is better off with a 66 Mustang that sold a few million units and are in people’s backyards and the junkyards have piles of parts for because they were popular, forget having any other twenty or forty year old car made since then. Planned obsolesence rules. I want a solid, standardized, simple system. All we have is wind, rain, sun, and jungle. You can’t keep a machine shop running with just a machine shop.
Great rhetoric. Necessity is the mother of invention. If the lathe breaks down all I need is a spinning chuck. How many ways can it be done? I didn’t say I’d be 1000 miles from nowhere. There will always be others with machines within reasonable distance. You think I’m the only person on earth thinking about doing this? Ever heard of the 100th monkey? Try the survival newsgroups.
This project has many aspects. The respectful valid information input here is only part of it. Nice try at deriding the concept model. I won’t have to make Scotch if I buy 200 gallons. At todays prices it could be a real bargain in 20 years. My Great Grandchildren can drink 100 and twenty five year old Chevas. Or I can get all the neighbors drunk and then kill them and eat them.
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I wonder if your farmer and/or you is aware that hydrogen flames are not visible?
And what does this COMMON KNOWLEDGE which I likely have had longer than you have been alive have to do with the proof of him, his off grid system, and my visit? Do you expect me to have kept my 14 year old plane ticket to Iowa, car rental receipt, lunch receipt, then scan them along with my photos of him and his electrolyzer, get copyright permission from NBC News to put my copy of the NATIONAL news story about him all on a web page to prove it to a little shit like YOU. That, alone, renders your story unbelievable. J.
So what kind of gas was coming from the WATER in his electrolyzer which was put into the tanks and piped to his house and burned? I suppose he had secret “Harry Conover Pipes” everywhere just so this lonely 90 year old man could get people like me to fly 1500 miles to visit him because no one will talk to him? By the way dipshit, when you burn hydrogen in open AIR it mixes with the AIR and burns PARTICLES in the AIR that you can SEE if the room is dark and you open your eyes. This is especially true if you are as half smart as you think you are and PURPOSEFULLY mix the VERY HOT hyd/ox gases with ambient AIR in order to mix the gases down to the temperature of natural gas so you don’t burn your dinner or your brain, depending on what you are frying. Jesus, where do these punks come from? You’re a real hotshot aren’t you? You musta gradgiated from the Donny Lambaster school of Rebunking. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have one question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure. 2. What size and type of battery pack would one need to support this? 3. What size and power generator would be needed? I know it would be quite large. I once visited a man in Iowa who had never gone on grid with his farm. He had ONE wind generator on the property. He had a room full of, some 90 years old, locomotive batteries that he used to support the farmhouse and the barn. He said all he ever put in the batteries for electolyte was potash and they never shorted out. It wasn’t a small house and it was a damn cold midweestern winter when I visited him. He also had made and electrolyzer and separator for hydrogen which he had piped to the house for stove gas use. He had made his own burners with tiny holes that wouldn’t blow back/out. What are some realistic numbers for use, thus generation and needed storage if you have say, a 25% duty cycle on your wind power for the 5000 sq/ft palace?
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[more drivel] <Plonk — William Smith ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc. www.compusmiths.com
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Well, to give your crap a serious answer. Fire Fighting Heat, open flames, electrical sparks, and static electricity easily ignite hydrogen. It will burn with a pale blue, almost invisible flame. Most hydrogen fires will have the flame characteristic of a torch or jet and will originate at the point where the hydrogen is discharging. If a leak is suspected in any part of a system, a hydrogen flame can be detected by cautiously approaching with an outstretched broom, lifting it up and down. The most effective way to fight a hydrogen fire is to shut off the flow of gas. If it is necessary to extinguish the flame in order to get to a place where the flow of hydrogen can be shut off, a dry powder extinguisher is recommended. However, if the fire is extinguished without stopping the flow of gas, an explosive mixture may form, creating a more serious hazard than the fire itself should re-ignition occur from the hot surfaces or other sources. The usual fire fighting practice is to prevent the fire from spreading and let it burn until the hydrogen is consumed. Dry powder fire extinguishers should be available in the area. A fire blanket should be conveniently located. An adequate water supply should be available to keep surrounding equipment cool in the event of a hydrogen fire. The local fire department should be advised of the nature of the products handled and made aware of the best known methods for combating hydrogen fires. http://www-safety.deas.harvard.edu/services/hydrogen.html I repeat, your story is just not believeable. BTW, Harry Conover, and Don Lancaster are far more credible than you. j. BTW, I am not familiar with a battery that uses potash for an electrolyte. Can you elucidate? j. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I wonder if your farmer and/or you is aware that hydrogen flames are not visible? And what does this COMMON KNOWLEDGE which I likely have had longer than you have been alive have to do with the proof of him, his off grid system, and my visit? Do you expect me to have kept my 14 year old plane ticket to Iowa, car rental receipt, lunch receipt, then scan them along with my photos of him and his electrolyzer, get copyright permission from NBC News to put my copy of the NATIONAL news story about him all on a web page to prove it to a little shit like YOU. That, alone, renders your story unbelievable. J. So what kind of gas was coming from the WATER in his electrolyzer which was put into the tanks and piped to his house and burned? I suppose he had secret “Harry Conover Pipes” everywhere just so this lonely 90 year old man could get people like me to fly 1500 miles to visit him because no one will talk to him? By the way dipshit, when you burn hydrogen in open AIR it mixes with the AIR and burns PARTICLES in the AIR that you can SEE if the room is dark and you open your eyes. This is especially true if you are as half smart as you think you are and PURPOSEFULLY mix the VERY HOT hyd/ox gases with ambient AIR in order to mix the gases down to the temperature of natural gas so you don’t burn your dinner or your brain, depending on what you are frying. Jesus, where do these punks come from? You’re a real hotshot aren’t you? You musta gradgiated from the Donny Lambaster school of Rebunking. I have one question which is actually two or three. What kind of Kw/hr usage number would be considered needed generation, use, and storage of strictly electrical power under these parameters? Or phrased another way,How many Kw/hrs of electricity would be need to support: 1. A 5,000 sq/ft, residential type living structure having 10 people using all utilities including lights, laundry, water heater, showers and other assorted toys including a heated pool and jacuzzi. And lets throw in charging 12 or so electric vehicles being charged as well for good measure. 2. What size and type of battery pack would one need to support this? 3. What size and power generator would be needed? I know it would be quite large. I once visited a man in Iowa who had never gone on grid with his farm. He had ONE wind generator on the property. He had a room full of, some 90 years old, locomotive batteries that he used to support the farmhouse and the barn. He said all he ever put in the batteries for electolyte was potash and they never shorted out. It wasn’t a small house and it was a damn cold midweestern winter when I visited him. He also had made and electrolyzer and separator for hydrogen which he had piped to the house for stove gas use. He had made his own burners with tiny holes that wouldn’t blow back/out. What are some realistic numbers for use, thus generation and needed storage if you have say, a 25% duty cycle on your wind power for the 5000 sq/ft palace?
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<snip BTW, I am not familiar with a battery that uses potash for an electrolyte. Can you elucidate?
Maybe nickel-iron? http://www.tidepool.com/~ecar/ni-fe.htm Regards, Bill Ward
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<snip BTW, I am not familiar with a battery that uses potash for an electrolyte. Can you elucidate? Maybe nickel-iron? http://www.tidepool.com/~ecar/ni-fe.htm Regards, Bill Ward
Another nonsensical claim is the lifetime of a battery of many decades. I used in my lab very high quality low discharge cells that were made with very pure ingredients and they have a lifetime of a couple of decades. After a while materials from the electrodes tend to flake off the electrodes and these cause a discharge path at the bottom of a cell. There are severe limitations on the number of charge discharge cycles you can coax out of a rechargable cell. FK — SDF Public Access UNIX System – http://sdf.lonestar.org
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BTW, I am not familiar with a battery that uses potash for an electrolyte. Can you elucidate?
See Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH)batterys. This is the battery technology that generally has replaced NiCads in most of today’s better quality portable power tools. http://www/panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/o,ages/pdf/panasonic_… http://www.cea.fr/gb/publications/Clefs44/an-clefs44/clefs4470a.html Harry C.
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BTW, I am not familiar with a battery that uses potash for an electrolyte. Can you elucidate? See Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH)batterys. This is the battery technology that generally has replaced NiCads in most of today’s better quality portable power tools. http://www/panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/o,ages/pdf/panasonic_… http://www.cea.fr/gb/publications/Clefs44/an-clefs44/clefs4470a.html
The edison cell is not in the same class as nicads even if the chemistry is similar. Banks of edison cells are extremely durable and show an exceptional life. They are typically used in industrial applications. I’ve seen whole rooms filled with these batteries and they do last for decades. The one advantage Nimh has over nicads is lack of memory. I always run my nicads empty before recharging but a lot of folks don’t know this. But with two packs I can work full out because you can charge nicads very fast. You don’t have this luxury with nimh. They say they have done well lately with the service life of nimh but I haven’t seen that personally. Harry C.
Best, Dan. — http://lakeweb.net http://ReserveAnalyst.com
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I was wondering if Your Worst Night etc has any idea. I believe his alleged battery was 90 years old or so, (predating nickel cadmium, etc.) J. Any idea for battery technology of 90 years ago? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, I am not familiar with a battery that uses potash for an electrolyte. Can you elucidate? See Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH)batterys. This is the battery technology that generally has replaced NiCads in most of today’s better quality portable power tools. http://www/panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/o,ages/pdf/panasonic_… http://www.cea.fr/gb/publications/Clefs44/an-clefs44/clefs4470a.html Harry C.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, I am not familiar with a battery that uses potash for an electrolyte. Can you elucidate? See Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH)batterys. This is the battery technology that generally has replaced NiCads in most of today’s better quality portable power tools. http://www/panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/o,ages/pdf/panasonic_… http://www.cea.fr/gb/publications/Clefs44/an-clefs44/clefs4470a.html The edison cell is not in the same class as nicads even if the chemistry is similar. Banks of edison cells are extremely durable and show an exceptional life. They are typically used in industrial applications. I’ve seen whole rooms filled with these batteries and they do last for decades.
I believe the energy density of nickel-iron is negligible. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
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The edison cell is not in the same class as nicads even if the chemistry is similar. Banks of edison cells are extremely durable and show an exceptional life. They are typically used in industrial applications. I’ve seen whole rooms filled with these batteries and they do last for decades. I believe the energy density of nickel-iron is negligible.
Would you quantify ‘negligible’? Or, what does it matter where the battery is applicable? Or, is this post just more blatant litter? Best, Dan. — http://lakeweb.net http://ReserveAnalyst.com
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The edison cell is not in the same class as nicads even if the chemistry is similar. Banks of edison cells are extremely durable and show an exceptional life. They are typically used in industrial applications. I’ve seen whole rooms filled with these batteries and they do last for decades. I believe the energy density of nickel-iron is negligible. Would you quantify ‘negligible’? Or, what does it matter where the battery is applicable? Or, is this post just more blatant litter? Best, Dan. –
Corey Says- Listening to these geniuses you would think it is impossible to get off of the grid! In 1941 my family installed a Wind Charger That never failed for the 7 years they used it. They used a bank of 16 lead batteries full of acid to store the electricity. The generator was only used 2 or 3 times through the 7 years. The batteries never failed. The reasons they quit using it was… 1. The Ural Electrification Association came through and made it possible to connect to the grid. 2. They didn’t have Inverters back then, so they had to have all new appliances changed from 115 VAC to 32 VDC. 3. Their was no automation so you had to check the little floating balls in the batteries to see if the wind charger had to be turned on or off. If you don’t have enough wind you now use Photo cells. Photo cells can also be used with Wind Chargers to cover intermittent wind areas.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The edison cell is not in the same class as nicads even if the chemistry is similar. Banks of edison cells are extremely durable and show an exceptional life. They are typically used in industrial applications. I’ve seen whole rooms filled with these batteries and they do last for decades. I believe the energy density of nickel-iron is negligible. Would you quantify ‘negligible’? Or, what does it matter where the battery is applicable? Or, is this post just more blatant litter? Best, Dan. — Corey Says- Listening to these geniuses you would think it is impossible to get off of the grid! In 1941 my family installed a Wind Charger That never failed for the 7 years they used it. They used a bank of 16 lead batteries full of acid to store the electricity. The generator was only used 2 or 3 times through the 7 years. The batteries never failed. The reasons they quit using it was… 1. The Ural Electrification Association came through and made it possible to connect to the grid. 2. They didn’t have Inverters back then, so they had to have all new appliances changed from 115 VAC to 32 VDC. 3. Their was no automation so you had to check the little floating balls in the batteries to see if the wind charger had to be turned on or off. If you don’t have enough wind you now use Photo cells. Photo cells can also be used with Wind Chargers to cover intermittent wind areas.
Well said Corey. Genius’s never seem to have common sense. There are some places in this country that did not gain an electric grid untill the 1950’s. You would think listening to these guys that living off the grid and supplying your own power is akin to a moonshot. Guess that’s the ultimate in technology. Obfuscation to keep the Genius’s in charge. Amazing how well my 16- L-16 lead acid batteries, 2 wind chargers, 8 PV’s and 2 – 4kw inverters power my house. Guys, it doesn’t have to be this complicated. Just do it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
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over the past few ] years. (BTW, my best source to date is “Brown’s Book of Carburetors” and “Supressed Inventions” They are full of patents/designs for “supressed” designs for high-mpg devices of all sorts) The most famous was probably the Pogue carburetor.solar power water heater canada The press claimed it got 200mpg, while the inventor said he never claimed even half that. It worked on tHe “hot-vapor” principle, superheating the intake air/fuel mixture before it entered the cylinders. This works, but it also lowers power output and causes pinging, etc. at part throttle and on hills. All it really does is run really lean. You can take virtually any 10mpg heavy V-8 powered gas hog and lean it *way* out, get it really good and hot, run it at 22mph on a flat road with all the accessories off and get 30-40mpg out of it, but that’s not practical, of course. 
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