Posts belonging to Category 'solar power water heater'

Central heat solar power water heater koh samui

Question:

Thank you for this detailed analysis for SE Michigan, solar power water heater koh samui my home town.

You are welcome, in advancesolar power water heater koh samuiYou seem to have overlooked that that detailed analysis was for Seattle, but I’ve modified it for Detroit, which is a little cooler than Seattle, but has about 50% more sun. My brother lives near Detroit too..solar power water heater koh samui. …I do have some comments and questions:

I’ll try to find some answers. The 0.2 ACH and the insulation values show your example is a very tight house. I would assume that this is new construction, with the R values shown. That’s fine, but would be premium construction at extra first dollar costs. solar power water heater koh samui

I was thinking about a new house with SIP walls (Structural Insulated Panels, ie glued OSB/foamboard sandwiches.)solar power water heater koh samui These are manufactured by about 100 companies in the US, and they are reasonably inexpensive, with a materials cost of about $3/ft^2 for 6″ walls with a real R-value of about 24, including (minimal) thermal bridging. They also end up with low air infiltration. One PA builder will guarantee 0.2 ACH with a blower door test. They go up quickly, with walls in large pieces up to 8′x20′, screwed together with splines, with holes precut exactly for windows and doors, which typically makes the total house cost (including labor) less than average. This should be considered in light of the average length of home ownership of less than five (or even ten) years. solar power water heater koh samui

Seems to me a house like this would be more valuable than others, in economic terms (heating bills), and also for people with a certain environmental zeal or competitiveness. This would increase the resale price, but I’m not sure a house like this would cost more to build. For one thing, a polycarbonate roof is cheaper than shingles, etc. For another, there’s no furnace or water heater, and maybe no well, if the heat storage tanks contain rainwater. Fire insurance might be $50/year cheaper with 3K gallons of water and an ISO-approved or dry hydrant. …I can’t picture your “32′ long x 4′ wide 30″ diameter $20 polyethylene tube filled with 2″ of water.” Is it round, a flattened tube, is there a picture of this? Is it partly filled with water? solar power water heater koh samui

It’s a flattened tube with a little water inside. I can see how that could be unclear. A 30″ diameter polyethylene film duct as used for greenhouse air distribution collapses flat to about 48″ wide. One local supplier sells these for 62 cents per linear foot, with a 4-year guarantee. Fill it with 2″ of water when the sun is shining, and raise both ends slightly to keep the water from running out. Greek and Israeli greenhouses use these water-filled tubes between rows of plants to store solar heat, with no concentration. I’ve boiled this poly with no loss of strength. The duct would sit in an 30 cent/ft^2 EPDM rubber-liner with a lip to contain possible leaks. Does your heated attic have problems with ice dams? solar power water heater koh samui

No. Then again, it’s only heated for a few hours a day. And my attic has no roof insulation or reflectors or solar power water heater koh samui concentrating trough. Not to pick a nit, but it looks like your calculation for attic air temperature may be a bit wishful.

My attic has been up to 130 F in December, and 143 in August, with lots of windows and turbine vents open.solar power water heater koh samui.. I just can’t imagine an attic, no matter how well insulated it was, attain a temperature of almost 120 F after six hours on a 34 F December “day”

The attic air would rise to 120 F very quickly a few minutes after it starts getting sun, since air has so little thermal mass (my attic also has two stone endwalls.) Do you believe in Ohm’s law for heatflow? If 250 Btu/h of sun shines on a square foot of R1 surface with 90% solar transmission and 34 F air on the other side, and the space behind is perfectly insulated, the air inside would rise to 34+250×0.9 = 259 F, using this linear model. Fourth power radiation loss would make 250×0.9 = 0.174×10^-8((T+460)^4-(34+460)^4), so T = 200 F, still pretty hot. If you don’t believe that, try putting an oven thermometer on your lawn in the sun some afternoon, with a storm window on top… It goes up to 300 or 400 F, and the grass quickly turns brown. (…when its cloudy it never seems to get very bright). NREL says a south wall in Detroit gets an average daily dose of 1.1 kWh/m^2 (417 Btu/ft^2) of direct beam sun in December, when the average outdoor temp is 28.3 F…

They don’t say whether this happens for 2 hours every day (unlikely) or for 10 6 hour days in a row (also unlikely.)solar power water heater koh samui But it does happen, as measured for 30 years, and the exact distribution in time makes little difference if the house has enough thermal storage to keep itself warm for say, 5 cloudy days in a row. A smart controller would only fill or pump water through the solar trough during those short times of direct beam sun, to minimize thermal loss over time. Also, following your calculations, it looks like you START with the amount of heat WITHDRAWN from the attic and use that to arrive at a REQUIRED indoor temperature.

Not exactly. I start by withdrawing a certain amount of energy and then calculate what the attic temp would be in that case, given the amount of solar energy that flows in. solar power water heater koh samuiout, for the attic, over an average day. Useful energy flows out of the attic into the house. Withdrawing more and more useful heat up to the solar energy inflow rate lowers the attic air temp to the outdoor temp. Withdrawing less raises it to the “stagnation point” where the amount of solar energy that flows into the attic equals the amount of heat that flows out to the outdoors, and the attic supplies no useful heat for the house.solar power water heater koh samui I believe a real simulation requires modeling the dyanmic system of heat gains, losses, storage and permeability/permitivity of each major component/system.

Damn! One of my new year’s resolutions was to stop arguing about technical stuff with people who cannot spell :-) Simulations are capable of infinite elaboration, but one needn’t consider these electromagnetic and dielectric properties of a house unless one is into the evils of metal bedsprings. Differential and integral analysis would be required.

I disagree. Perhaps you were tortured this way as a youth… :-)    When we play tennis or walk downstairs we are actually solving    whole pages of differential equations, quickly, easily and without    thinking about it, using the analogue computer which we keep in our    minds. What we find difficult about mathematics is the formal,    symbolic presentation of the subject by pedagogues with a taste for    dogma, sadism and incomprehensible squiggles.    From _Structures: Why Things Don’t Fall Down_, by J. E. Gordon We only need a few monthly averages and back of the envelope calcs here. Also, I can’t quite see how the the concentrated solar could raise the tube to over 200 F without enormous losses to the surrounding space. Again, integral analysis of gains and losses would be needed, but without understanding the tube’s geometry I can’t even start a steady state analysis.

Would you believe 150 F?   Well, take a look at the numbers again. Lots of solar power concentrates into a small area, with small thermal loss since it is a small area. And the attic air temp is fairly high, which further lowers the loss from the small area (which also increases the air temp, which in turn raises the amount of energy that can be collected with an air-water heat exchanger for heating the house on an average day, in a nice symbiosis.) Finally, my guess is that cooling your thermal storage to 80 F, against a 70 F house temperature, would be difficult. You would need a very large (expensive) to get reasonably fast heat transfer out of a media dT of 10 F.

Not with a hydronic floorslab in a well-insulated house–244K Btu/day is about 10K Btu/h. A 32′x32′ slab with 1500 Btu/h-F of slab-air thermal conductance can supply 10K Btu/h of house heat with a 10K/1500 = 6.7 F slab-air temperature difference. The slab would distribute and store solar heat collected from attic air with an air-water heat exchanger (like an auto radiator) on an average day, and the hot rainwater tanks (heated with the concentrator) would only supply heat for cloudy days. Here’s the Detroit rewrite: A 32′x32′x16′ tall house with real R24 6″ SIP walls and ceiling, 176 ft^2 of R4 windows with 50% solar transmission, and 0.2 house air volumes per hour of air leaks has a thermal conductance of 176ft^2/R4 = 44 Btu/h-F for the windows plus 78 for the walls plus 85 for the ceiling. The air leakage rate is 0.2ACHx32×32x16/60 = 109 cfm, which adds about 109 Btu/h-F to the conductance, making the total about 316 Btu/h-F. The house needs about 24h(70-28.3)316 = 316K Btu to stay warm on an average December day in Detroit, when 410, 160, 270, 270 and 610 Btu/ft^2 of sun fall on a level surface and north, east, west, and south windows. If 10, 15, 25, and 50% of the windows face north, east, west, and south, they will collect a total of 38K Btu/day of sun (solar heating the house about 12%.) A frugal 300 kWh/month of internal electrical usage adds 34K Btu/day of heat, so the house needs an additional 316K-38K-34K = 244K Btu/day for 100% solar heating in December. With a 4′ stemwall above the attic floor and a 3:4 pitch roof with 90% solar transmission, we can collect about 0.9×410x32′x16′= 189K Btu of overhead sun and about 0.9×610x32′x16′ = 281K of sun from the south, 470K Btu/day altogether. Line the north wall with Masonite covered with Nielsen’s (www.snomo.com/mylar.html) 90% reflective 9 cent/ft^2 film and collect about 0.9×0.9×0.9×417x16′x32′= 156K Btu/day of south sun in a 32′ long x 4′ wide 30″ diameter $20 polyethylene tube filled with 2″ of water along the base of the north wall. The reflector would focus at y^2/(4x) = 16′^2/(4×16′) = 4′ from the north wall at dawn, and closer during the day. If we withdraw 244K Btu/day of heat from the attic, some warm air … read more »

Response:

solar power water heater koh samui Nick says solar is best; Not if you live in the Pacific Northwest! We don’t even see the sun for 6 months at a time. Maybe you aren’t looking in the same direction as the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, eg South from Seattle, where NREL has measured an average 0.8 kWh/m^2 (303 Btu/ft^2–about 1.5 hours) of direct beam sun per day in December (24-hour average outdoor temp 40.5 F, with an average daily max of 45.1) for the last 30 years. Seattle gets 303/(70-40.5) = 10.3 Btu/ft^2 of beam sun per degree day. Not in SE Michigan. We get some long stretches of bitter, gloomy weather. Solar might be great for some people but not up here. NREL says a south wall in Detroit gets an average daily dose of 1.1 kWh/m^2 (417 Btu/ft^2) of direct beam sun in December, when the average outdoor temp is 28.3 F. Detroit gets 417/(70-28.3) = 10 Btu/ft^2-DD (vs Albuquerque with 1668/(70-35.3) = 48 :-) Solar heating in cloudier climates is more difficult, but not impossible. Detroit has more sun than Seattle, but it’s colder, so Detroit houses might have less solar collection area and more heat storage. Both can be frugal if combined with other functions like attics or sunspaces that add floorspace to houses, or tanks for rainwater storage or more efficient higher temp sewage treatment, which can eliminate the need for expensive wells and septic systems. Solar attics have advantages over sunspaces: their geometry suits reflective fixed solar concentrators like engineer Howard Reichmuth’s Ecotope solar greenhouse in Seattle, which has a 20-year successful track record. These concentrators can heat water to a higher temperature with greater efficiency and lower cost than sunspaces, and supply hot water for showers and hydronic floorslabs for heat distribution. Attics are unlikely to be shaded by trees or other houses. They don’t require extra real estate or add much taxable value to houses. They can provide powerful daylighting with inexpensive efficient skylights in the attic floors, with movable insulating reflective foamboard covers that are hinged on the north edges. Houses need attics anyway. A single layer of $1/ft^2 20-year clear corrugated polycarbonate plastic over purlins on 4′ centers is cheaper and more mold- resistant than asphalt shingles over tarpaper and sheathing and rafters on 16″ centers. With more solar heat and slipperieness and thermal conductance, it can shed snow more easily. A 32′x32′x16′ tall house with real R24 6″ SIP walls and ceiling, 176 ft^2 of R4 windows with 50% solar transmission, and 0.2 house air volumes per hour of air leaks has a thermal conductance of 176ft^2/R4 = 44 Btu/h-F for the windows plus 78 for the walls plus 85 for the ceiling. The air leakage rate is 0.2ACHx32×32x16/60 = 109 cfm, which adds about 109 Btu/h-F to the conductance, making the total about 316 Btu/h-F. The house needs about 24h(70-40.5)316 = 224K Btu to stay warm on an average December day in Seattle, when 250, 100, 170, 170 and 420 Btu/ft^2 of sun fall on a level surface and north, east, west, and south windows. If 10, 15, 25, and 50% of the windows face north, east, west, and south, they will collect a total of 25K Btu/day of sun (solar heating the house about 10%.) A frugal 300 kWh/month of internal electrical usage adds 34K Btu/day of heat, so the house needs an additional 224K-25K-34K = 165K Btu/day for 100% solar heating in December. With a 4′ stemwall above the attic floor and a 3:4 pitch roof with 90% solar transmission, we can collect about 0.9×250x32′x16′= 115K Btu of overhead sun and about 0.9×420x32′x16′ = 194K of sun from the south, 309K Btu/day altogether. Line the north wall with Masonite covered with Nielsen’s (www.snomo.com/mylar.html) 90% reflective 9 cent/ft^2 film and collect about 0.9×0.9×0.9×303x16′x32′= 113K Btu/day of south sun in a 32′ long x 4′ wide 30″ diameter $20 polyethylene tube filled with 2″ of water along the base of the north wall. The reflector would focus at y^2/(4x) = 16′^2/(4×16′) = 4′ from the north wall at dawn, and closer during the day. If we withdraw 165K Btu/day of heat from the attic, some warm air as well as heat from skylights and sun concentrated in water, and most of the attic walls are well-insulated, with an average attic air temp T over a 6 hour solar collection day in December, the R1 south attic roof will lose about 6h(T-43F)16′x20′/R1 Btu/day = 309K – 165K, making T = 43 + 144K/(6×16x20) = 118 F (which will also lower the daytime heat loss from the house ceiling.) Putting 113K Btu/6h = 18.8K Btu/h of sun into the 4′x32′R0.67 = 192 Btu/h-F tube makes the water collection temp 118+18.8KBtu/h/192Btu/h-F = 216 F, which seems good enough :-) If the water turns out to be cooler, we might raise that temp with a controller that only fills or pumps the trough during times of direct beam sun. The house needs 5d(224K-34K) = 950K Btu for 5 cloudy 40.5 F days in a row. (Are cloudy days warmer in Seattle?) If this comes from G gallons of 150F rainwater cooling to 80 F, (150F-80F)Gx8Btu/gal = 950K, so G = 1696. We might use a couple of $419.95 1500 gallon 84″dx60″ tall polyethylene tanks in/under the house, surrounded by insulation… Nick Nicholson L. Pine                      System design and consulting Pine Associates, Ltd.                           (610) 489-1475/0545 821 Collegeville Road                           Fax: (610) 489-7057 Computer simulation and modeling. High performance, low cost, solar heating and cogeneration system design. BSEE, MSEE. Senior Member, IEEE. Registered US Patent Agent. Web site: http://www.ece.vill.edu/~nick

Thank you for this detailed analysis for SE Michigan, my home town. The numbers look impressive, but I do have some comments and questions: The 0.2 ACH and the insulation values show your example is a very tight house. I would assume that this is new construction, with the R values shown. That’s fine, but would be premium construction at extra first dollar costs. This should be considered in light of the average length of home ownership of less than five (or even ten) years. Maybe its ignorance, but I can’t picture your “32′ long x 4′ wide 30″ diameter $20 polyethylene tube filled with 2″ of water.” Is it round, a flattened tube, is there a picture of this? Is it partly filled with water? Does your heated attic have problems with ice dams? These can be severe with attics that are not allowed to cool to very near ambient outdoor conditions. I especially wonder about your north sloped attic roof. Not to pick a nit, but it looks like your calculation for attic air temperature may be a bit wishful. I just can’t imagine an attic, no matter how well insulated it was, attain a temperature of almost 120 F after six hours on a 34 F December “day” (quotes because, when its cloudy it never seems to get very bright). Also, following your calculations, it looks like you START with the amount of heat WITHDRAWN from the attic and use that to arrive at a REQUIRED indoor temperature. I believe a real simulation requires modeling the dyanmic system of heat gains, losses, storage and permeability/permitivity of each major component/system. Differential and integral analysis would be required (if not used, as HVAC contractors do, just design for worst case conditions and add 30%). Also, I can’t quite see how the the concentrated solar could raise the tube to over 200 F without enormous losses to the surrounding space. Again, integral analysis of gains and losses would be needed, but without understanding the tube’s geometry I can’t even start a steady state analysis. Finally, my guess is that cooling your thermal storage to 80 F, against a 70 F house temperature, would be difficult. You would need a very large (expensive) to get reasonably fast heat transfer out of a media dT of 10 F.

Response:

Nick says solar is best; Not if you live in the Pacific Northwest!solar power water heater koh samui We don’t even see the sun for 6 months at a time.

Maybe you aren’t looking in the same direction as the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, eg South from Seattle, where NREL has measured an average 0.8 kWh/m^2 (303 Btu/ft^2–about 1.5 hours) of direct beam sun per day in December (24-hour average outdoor temp 40.5 F, with an average daily max of 45.1) for the last 30 years. Seattle gets 303/(70-40.5) = 10.3 Btu/ft^2 of beam sun per degree day. Not in SE Michigan. We get some long stretches of bitter, gloomy weather. Solar might be great for some people but not up here.

NREL says a south wall in Detroit gets an average daily dose of 1.1 kWh/m^2 (417 Btu/ft^2) of direct beam sun in December, when the average outdoor temp is 28.3 F. Detroit gets 417/(70-28.3) = 10 Btu/ft^2-DD (vs Albuquerque with 1668/(70-35.3) = 48 :-) Solar heating in cloudier climates is more difficult, but not impossible. Detroit has more sun than Seattle, but it’s colder, so Detroit houses might have less solar collection area and more heat storage. Both can be frugal if combined with other functions like attics or sunspaces that add floorspace to houses, or tanks for rainwater storage or more efficient higher temp sewage treatment, which can eliminate the need for expensive wells and septic systems. Solar attics have advantages over sunspaces: their geometry suits reflective fixed solar concentrators like engineer Howard Reichmuth’s Ecotope solar greenhouse in Seattle, which has a 20-year successful track record. These concentrators can heat water to a higher temperature with greater efficiency and lower cost than sunspaces, and supply hot water for showers and hydronic floorslabs for heat distribution. Attics are unlikely to be shaded by trees or other houses. They don’t require extra real estate or add much taxable value to houses. They can provide powerful daylighting with inexpensive efficient skylights in the attic floors, with movable insulating reflective foamboard covers that are hinged on the north edges. Houses need attics anyway. A single layer of $1/ft^2 20-year clear corrugated polycarbonate plastic over purlins on 4′ centers is cheaper and more mold- resistant than asphalt shingles over tarpaper and sheathing and rafters on 16″ centers. With more solar heat and slipperieness and thermal conductance, it can shed snow more easily. A 32′x32′x16′ tall house with real R24 6″ SIP walls and ceiling, 176 ft^2 of R4 windows with 50% solar transmission, and 0.2 house air volumes per hour of air leaks has a thermal conductance of 176ft^2/R4 = 44 Btu/h-F for the windows plus 78 for the walls plus 85 for the ceiling. The air leakage rate is 0.2ACHx32×32x16/60 = 109 cfm, which adds about 109 Btu/h-F to the conductance, making the total about 316 Btu/h-F. The house needs about 24h(70-40.5)316 = 224K Btu to stay warm on an average December day in Seattle, when 250, 100, 170, 170 and 420 Btu/ft^2 of sun fall on a level surface and north, east, west, and south windows. If 10, 15, 25, and 50% of the windows face north, east, west, and south, they will collect a total of 25K Btu/day of sun (solar heating the house about 10%.) A frugal 300 kWh/month of internal electrical usage adds 34K Btu/day of heat, so the house needs an additional 224K-25K-34K = 165K Btu/day for 100% solar heating in December. With a 4′ stemwall above the attic floor and a 3:4 pitch roof with 90% solar transmission, we can collect about 0.9×250x32′x16′= 115K Btu of overhead sun and about 0.9×420x32′x16′ = 194K of sun from the south, 309K Btu/day altogether. Line the north wall with Masonite covered with Nielsen’s (www.snomo.com/mylar.html) 90% reflective 9 cent/ft^2 film and collect about 0.9×0.9×0.9×303x16′x32′= 113K Btu/day of south sun in a 32′ long x 4′ wide 30″ diameter $20 polyethylene tube filled with 2″ of water along the base of the north wall. The reflector would focus at y^2/(4x) = 16′^2/(4×16′) = 4′ from the north wall at dawn, and closer during the day. If we withdraw 165K Btu/day of heat from the attic, some warm air as well as heat from skylights and sun concentrated in water, and most of the attic walls are well-insulated, with an average attic air temp T over a 6 hour solar collection day in December, the R1 south attic roof will lose about 6h(T-43F)16′x20′/R1 Btu/day = 309K – 165K, making T = 43 + 144K/(6×16x20) = 118 F (which will also lower the daytime heat loss from the house ceiling.) Putting 113K Btu/6h = 18.8K Btu/h of sun into the 4′x32′R0.67 = 192 Btu/h-F tube makes the water collection temp 118+18.8KBtu/h/192Btu/h-F = 216 F, which seems good enough :-) If the water turns out to be cooler, we might raise that temp with a controller that only fills or pumps the trough during times of direct beam sun. The house needs 5d(224K-34K) = 950K Btu for 5 cloudy 40.5 F days in a row. (Are cloudy days warmer in Seattle?) If this comes from G gallons of 150F rainwater cooling to 80 F, (150F-80F)Gx8Btu/gal = 950K, so G = 1696. We might use a couple of $419.95 1500 gallon 84″dx60″ tall polyethylene tanks in/under the house, surrounded by insulation… Nick Nicholson L. Pine

Response:

solar power build solar power water heater efficiency

Question:

would much energy build solar power water heater be lost using solar power cells to generate electricity to heat water as against using solar powered water heating panels and do these panels need the water pumped through them? Using solar electric build solar power water heater (or even wind) to heat water is extremely inefficient.

To clarify this, electric water heating is almost 100% efficient, but PVs are 15% or so. Wind electricity might be close to 30%, but cost-effectiveness seems more important. …At 20 amps and 12v it would take 2 weeks to heat 50 gallons to a decent temperature. build solar power water heater

Heating 50 gallons of water from 60-120 F takes 50×8(120-60) = 24,000 Btu or 24K/3.41 = 7038 watt-hours, ie 20Ax12V = 240 watts for 7038/240 = 29 hours. …a watt of solar power is only about 3.4 BTUs. build solar power water heater

So many people still confuse power and energy.build solar power water heater.. A watt-hour is 3.41 Btu of energy.        ^^^^ Water is best heated by direct solar gain on a tank holding the water…

Direct gain systems lose lots of heat at night and on cloudy days. How about putting 4 2×8′ amorphous PV panels in a sunspace, with an extra layer of polycarbonate glazing, between reflecting 2:1 solar troughs, and allowing some water to thermosyphon up through a gravity-feed conventional water heater or a few 55 gallon drums in an insulated box above? The water at 120 F in an 80 F sunspace would lose about 6h(120-80)64ft^2/R1 = 15K Btu on a 6 hour winter day, and gain 1,000Btu/ft^2/dayx0.9×0.9×128ft^2 = 104K of heat, for a heating efficiency of 85%, while making 104K/3.41x.05 = 1.5 kWh of electrical energy using 5% PVs at $2/peak watt. The “lost heat” could warm sunspace air to circulate through an attached house in the winter. build solar power water heater

Response:

build solar power water heaterTo clarify this, electric water heating is almost 100% efficient, but PVs are : 15% or so. Thank you for the “clarification”.  And all this time I was under the impression that there is no such thing as “almost 100% efficient” anything!    You’ll do well to go back to your basic science books, however, and recall the basics of electricity;  what it takes (and how much is lost) to produce, transport, transform and use it.  You’ll be shocked by the difference between the resulting number and your “almost 100%” wish.    You may even find out that, in some places and instances, watt per watt and dollar per dollar PV electricity and/or solar thermal energy are much more efficient and cheaper than conventional electric power.

There is a difference between thermal power and electric power. You can put the electric power from the Photovoltaic into a heat pump. Under certain conditions: Low temperature and cloudy, the combination PV + heat pump is far superior a thermal collector in producing heat. If You need heat and cooling the same time, 1 part electric power can produce about 3..4 part heat and 2..3 part cold.build solar power water heater  One heavy design failure in solar architecture is: Create the solar collectors as big as needed for late autum. The big solar collector makes to much power in the summer. Let’s have a big season storage. That’s always the best way to make it very very expensive. PV heat pump combination avoids this expensive storage problem. Let’s sell the power to the grid, when we have to much in the summer time.

One way to solar power water heater information build a high-performance passive solar house

Question:

solar power water heater information Look up the average outdoor temperature in January, where you live. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory’s free solar power water heater information _Solar Radiation Data Manual for Buildings_ has this information for 239 US locations. NREL’s phone number is (303) 275-4099. Where I live, near Philadelphia, the average January temperature is about 30 F or -1 C, and NREL’s manual says that 1,000 Btu/day or 3.3 kWh/m^2 of sun falls on a south wall here on an average January day, with a ground reflectance of about 0.2. A reflective surface in front of the wall like ice or snow or white paint might add 30% to the solar power that falls on the wall. solar power water heater information  Step 2. Estimate how much energy your house needs to stay warm on an average Jan day. For example, a very-well-insulated 30′ x 30′ (10mx10m) 2-story house with about 2,000 square feet (200 m^2) of average US R20 (metric R3.5) walls and 1,000 ft^2 of R40 ceiling (100 m^2 of metric R7 ceiling) needs approximately 2,000ft^2/R20 + 1000ft^2/R40 = 125 Btu per hour per degree F or 37 watts to stay 68 F inside when it’s 67 F outside. The energy needed to keep a house warm is 24 (hours) times the product of (1) the difference between the average indoor and outdoor temperatures and (2) the thermal conductance of the house, ie the sum of each exterior surface area divided by its R-value. The number of kWh/day needed to keep a house warm is 3400 times less than the number of Btu, using the same formula with different units. This example house needs 24 hr x (68 F – 30 F) x 125 Btu/hr-F = 114,000 Btu or 33 kWh to stay warm on an average January day, the approximate heat equivalent of a gallon of oil. Step 3. Calculate how large a sunspace the house needs to stay warm, ie how much vertical south glass or plastic film glazing area a low-thermal-mass sunspace needs to gather enough solar heat to keep the house warm on an average Jan day with an average amount of sun. If the low-thermal-mass sunspace has an insulated low-thermal-mass wall between it and the house, solar power water heater information ie a non-masonry floor and a non-masonry wall, with no rocks nor bricks nor water containers nor collections of scrap iron inside the sunspace, with a window fan to move most of the warm air into the house during the day, the sunspace will be about 68 F (20 C) during the day. If we let the sunspace get icy cold at night, the heat lost from the glazing over an average 6 hour Jan day will be about 6x(68F-30F)1 ft^2/USR1 = 228 Btu/ft^2 or 6x(20C-(-1C))1m^2/R0.176 = 716 wh/day, so the sunspace glazing can provide about 1000-228 = 772 Btu/ft^2 or 3.3-0.716 = 2.6 kWh to the house on an average Jan day, in this example. The example house needs about 114,000,000/772 = 150 sq. feet or 33/2.6 = 12.7 m^2 of sunspace glazing to keep it warm on an average day. Say, a 16′ high x 16′ wide x 12′ deep (5m x 5m x 4m) lean-to plastic film greenhouse, made from standard commercial greenhouse hardware, including 5 long curved galvanized pipes costing $35 each, with a lightweight gravel floor over plastic film on the ground. Step 4. Estimate how many cloudy days in a row there are in January, where you live, and what the outdoor temperature is during those days. In some places, cloudy days and nights are warmer than days and nights in sunny weather, because the clouds act as insulation. (US residents can be more precise about this by buying a $130 CD ROM from NREL/NOAA which includes 30 year’s worth of _hourly_ solar weather data for their locations, and looking over the data for long sunless periods with low air temperatures, ie “cloudy degree day” periods, or running a very simple computer simulation of a particular solar house to estimate the interior temperature every hour for 20 years and predict daily temperature swings.) Suppose this example house is in a climate in which we expect at most 5 cloudy Jan days in a row with 99% confidence, with an average outdoor temperature during those days of 30 F (-1 C), ie we expect colder and cloudier periods to occur only every 100 years. Step 5. Calculate how many sealed 55 gallon or 200 liter plastic drums full of water (or 5 gallon pails or 2 liter soda bottles or canned goods on shelves) are needed inside the closet to keep the house warm for that cloudy period. The example house needs 5×114K = 570K Btu or 167 kWh to stay warm for 5 cloudy days. If the water in the drums is, say 130 F (54 C), and the drums can keep the house warm until the water cools to, say, 80 F (27 C), then each drum stores about 25K Btu or 6 kWh of useful heat, and the house needs 570K/25K = 23 55 gallon or 167/6 = 28 200 liter drums. We might keep the drums at 54 C by building an “solar closet,” ie a box that is completely surrounded by insulation, behind the sunspace, ideally inside the house, with an air heater as part of the insulated wall between the sunspace and the house, using some transparent “solar siding,” eg Home Depot’s “Paltough” corrugated polycarbonate plastic, costing about $1/ft^2, or Replex’s ((800) 726-5151) clear flat polycarbonate plastic, which costs about $1.25 per square foot ($13/m^2) and comes in long rolls, 49 inches wide. The transparent siding might have some black aluminum window screen or greenhouse shadecloth to the north and behind it, with an air gap on each side of the shadecloth, to reduce reradiation and increase the solar collection efficiency of the closet. 80% carbon-filled polypropylene shadecloth costs about 15 cents per square foot or $2/m^2 and should last many years out of the weather. Shadecloth comes in various colors. We might have a 1″ (3 cm) air gap between the siding and the shadecloth, and another 1″ gap between the shadecloth and 3 1/2″ (10 cm) of fiberglass insulation in a 6″ (15 cm) wall, with some small vents (about 1% of the closet glazing area, eg 1 square foot or 0.1 m^2 in the example house) at the top and bottom of this air heater, to allow cooler air from the solar closet to flow into the outside air gap through the vent hole at the bottom of the air heater, which would then flow horizontally through the shadecloth from south to north, becoming warmer, and rise up and flow back through the upper vent hole and back into the closet. solar power water heater information The vent holes might have plastic-film backdraft dampers to keep air from flowing when the sun is not shining. These require checking every week or so, since they can stick open, and if they are large enough to pass air well, they lose significant heat through the US R1 plastic film. They might be made from chicken wire and the plastic film used for dry cleaner bags. Using a small fan can reduce thermal losses and raise solar collection efficiency. The inside walls of the closet could simply be fiberglass insulation, covered with plastic film. The floor might be earth, covered with more plastic film. The spaces between the sealed containers of water allow air to circulate around them, heating or cooling them.solar power water heater information We need a room-temperature-sensitive vent (eg a $12 automatic foundation vent with its bimetallic spring reversed to open some louver as temperature drops) or a fan that turns on between the closet and house on cool cloudy days, and a return air path from the house to the closet near the floor. The example house might have 24 2′ diameter x 3′ high drums stacked 2 high in 2 rows of 6 drums making the solar closet about 8′ high x 12′ long x 4′ deep. ie about 3m high x 4m long x 1m deep. We might make it 6′ (2m) longer, and use the empty space for a sauna, or a place to dry clothes. The closet might have 3 1/2″ (10 cm) of fiberglass insulation in its ceiling, ie the second floor of the house, as well as in the other walls inside the house. Most of the “waste heat” from this closet ends up in the house, and it provides very little heat for the house on an average winter day, with some sun. On such a day, the house is almost entirely heated by the warm air from the sunspace. If the closet were 2 stories tall, 1 or 2 plastic drums with threaded bungs at the top might be plumbed in series to make a low-pressure gravity-fed hot water system using a float valve or rainwater from the roof to keep the drums full. A 1-story solar closet might have a fan-coil unit or about 20′ (6m) of baseboard radiator pipe with fins near the ceiling to make an air-water heat exchanger connected to a warm-water thermosyphoning loop with some insulated pipe through an ordinary water heater on the second floor with a heating element that rarely turns on. In either case, the sunspace and closet need about 64 ft^2 (6m^2) more solar glazing. The sauna area in the closet might have a small woodstove, for burning newspapers, junk mail, old paper towels, college committee recommendations, letters from congressmen, and press releases announcing amazing new price breakthroughs in photovoltaic technology. solar power water heater information. Air infiltration robs houses of heat, and electrical power use adds        heat to houses, as do south windows. These things tend to cancel out,        conservatively-speaking, so they aren’t mentioned above. Other helpful        factors not mentioned above are that daytime temperatures inside and        outside the house are higher than nighttime temperatures, and that the solar power water heater information       part of the south wall of the house that is covered by the sunspace        needs no heat on an average day.        2. Sunspace airflow volume increases with the square root of the height.        A quote from the Energy Crafted Homes spec: “For optimal heat flow into        the house from the sunspace, install sliding or French doors between        the two. Natural air flow through an open door can be as high as 1000        cfm… most effective if a complete loop through the house is possible-        two-story sunspaces can be tremendously effective at heating a house        for this reason.” A two-story sunspace probably needs no fan. It might        operate automatically with a 2 watt $50 Honeywell 6161B1000 damper        motor in series with two thermostats,

… read more »

Response:

The National Renewable Energy Laboratory’s free _Solar Radiation Data Manual for Buildings_ has this information for 239 US locations. NREL’s phone number is (303) 275-4099.

The NREL web site has much of this information also. http://rredc.nrel.gov/ Or see: http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/ sdb

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Step 1. Look up the average outdoor temperature in January, where you live. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory’s free _Solar Radiation Data Manual for Buildings_ has this information for 239 US locations. NREL’s phone number is (303) 275-4099. Where I live, near Philadelphia, the average January temperature is about 30 F or -1 C, and NREL’s manual says that 1,000 Btu/day or 3.3 kWh/m^2 of sun falls on a south wall here on an average January day, with a ground reflectance of about 0.2. A reflective surface in front of the wall like ice or snow or white paint might add 30% to the solar power that falls on the wall.   Step 2. Estimate how much energy your house needs to stay warm on an average Jan day. For example, a very-well-insulated 30′ x 30′ (10mx10m) 2-story house with about 2,000 square feet (200 m^2) of average US R20 (metric R3.5) walls and 1,000 ft^2 of R40 ceiling (100 m^2 of metric R7 ceiling) needs approximately 2,000ft^2/R20 + 1000ft^2/R40 = 125 Btu per hour per degree F or 37 watts to stay 68 F inside when it’s 67 F outside. The energy needed to keep a house warm is 24 (hours) times the product of (1) the difference between the average indoor and outdoor temperatures and (2) the thermal conductance of the house, ie the sum of each exterior surface area divided by its R-value. The number of kWh/day needed to keep a house warm is 3400 times less than the number of Btu, using the same formula with different units. This example house needs 24 hr x (68 F – 30 F) x 125 Btu/hr-F = 114,000 Btu or 33 kWh to stay warm on an average January day, the approximate heat equivalent of a gallon of oil. Step 3. Calculate how large a sunspace the house needs to stay warm, ie how much vertical south glass or plastic film glazing area a low-thermal-mass sunspace needs to gather enough solar heat to keep the house warm on an average Jan day with an average amount of sun. If the low-thermal-mass sunspace has an insulated low-thermal-mass wall between it and the house, ie a non-masonry floor and a non-masonry wall, with no rocks nor bricks nor water containers nor collections of scrap iron inside the sunspace, with a window fan to move most of the warm air into the house during the day, the sunspace will be about 68 F (20 C) during the day. If we let the sunspace get icy cold at night, the heat lost from the glazing over an average 6 hour Jan day will be about 6x(68F-30F)1 ft^2/USR1 = 228 Btu/ft^2 or 6x(20C-(-1C))1m^2/R0.176 = 716 wh/day, so the sunspace glazing can provide about 1000-228 = 772 Btu/ft^2 or 3.3-0.716 = 2.6 kWh to the house on an average Jan day, in this example. The example house needs about 114,000,000/772 = 150 sq. feet or 33/2.6 = 12.7 m^2 of sunspace glazing to keep it warm on an average day. Say, a 16′ high x 16′ wide x 12′ deep (5m x 5m x 4m) lean-to plastic film greenhouse, made from standard commercial greenhouse hardware, including 5 long curved galvanized pipes costing $35 each, with a lightweight gravel floor over plastic film on the ground. Step 4. Estimate how many cloudy days in a row there are in January, where you live, and what the outdoor temperature is during those days. In some places, cloudy days and nights are warmer than days and nights in sunny weather, because the clouds act as insulation. (US residents can be more precise about this by buying a $130 CD ROM from NREL/NOAA which includes 30 year’s worth of _hourly_ solar weather data for their locations, and looking over the data for long sunless periods with low air temperatures, ie “cloudy degree day” periods, or running a very simple computer simulation of a particular solar house to estimate the interior temperature every hour for 20 years and predict daily temperature swings.) Suppose this example house is in a climate in which we expect at most 5 cloudy Jan days in a row with 99% confidence, with an average outdoor temperature during those days of 30 F (-1 C), ie we expect colder and cloudier periods to occur only every 100 years. Step 5. Calculate how many sealed 55 gallon or 200 liter plastic drums full of water (or 5 gallon pails or 2 liter soda bottles or canned goods on shelves) are needed inside the closet to keep the house warm for that cloudy period. The example house needs 5×114K = 570K Btu or 167 kWh to stay warm for 5 cloudy days. If the water in the drums is, say 130 F (54 C), and the drums can keep the house warm until the water cools to, say, 80 F (27 C), then each drum stores about 25K Btu or 6 kWh of useful heat, and the house needs 570K/25K = 23 55 gallon or 167/6 = 28 200 liter drums. We might keep the drums at 54 C by building an “solar closet,” ie a box that is completely surrounded by insulation, behind the sunspace, ideally inside the house, with an air heater as part of the insulated wall between the sunspace and the house, using some transparent “solar siding,” eg Home Depot’s “Paltough” corrugated polycarbonate plastic, costing about $1/ft^2, or Replex’s ((800) 726-5151) clear flat polycarbonate plastic, which costs about $1.25 per square foot ($13/m^2) and comes in long rolls, 49 inches wide. The transparent siding might have some black aluminum window screen or greenhouse shadecloth to the north and behind it, with an air gap on each side of the shadecloth, to reduce reradiation and increase the solar collection efficiency of the closet. 80% carbon-filled polypropylene shadecloth costs about 15 cents per square foot or $2/m^2 and should last many years out of the weather. Shadecloth comes in various colors. We might have a 1″ (3 cm) air gap between the siding and the shadecloth, and another 1″ gap between the shadecloth and 3 1/2″ (10 cm) of fiberglass insulation in a 6″ (15 cm) wall, with some small vents (about 1% of the closet glazing area, eg 1 square foot or 0.1 m^2 in the example house) at the top and bottom of this air heater, to allow cooler air from the solar closet to flow into the outside air gap through the vent hole at the bottom of the air heater, which would then flow horizontally through the shadecloth from south to north, becoming warmer, and rise up and flow back through the upper vent hole and back into the closet. The vent holes might have plastic-film backdraft dampers to keep air from flowing when the sun is not shining. These require checking every week or so, since they can stick open, and if they are large enough to pass air well, they lose significant heat through the US R1 plastic film. They might be made from chicken wire and the plastic film used for dry cleaner bags. Using a small fan can reduce thermal losses and raise solar collection efficiency. The inside walls of the closet could simply be fiberglass insulation, covered with plastic film. The floor might be earth, covered with more plastic film. The spaces between the sealed containers of water allow air to circulate around them, heating or cooling them. We need a room-temperature-sensitive vent (eg a $12 automatic foundation vent with its bimetallic spring reversed to open some louver as temperature drops) or a fan that turns on between the closet and house on cool cloudy days, and a return air path from the house to the closet near the floor. The example house might have 24 2′ diameter x 3′ high drums stacked 2 high in 2 rows of 6 drums making the solar closet about 8′ high x 12′ long x 4′ deep. ie about 3m high x 4m long x 1m deep. We might make it 6′ (2m) longer, and use the empty space for a sauna, or a place to dry clothes. The closet might have 3 1/2″ (10 cm) of fiberglass insulation in its ceiling, ie the second floor of the house, as well as in the other walls inside the house. Most of the “waste heat” from this closet ends up in the house, and it provides very little heat for the house on an average winter day, with some sun. On such a day, the house is almost entirely heated by the warm air from the sunspace. If the closet were 2 stories tall, 1 or 2 plastic drums with threaded bungs at the top might be plumbed in series to make a low-pressure gravity-fed hot water system using a float valve or rainwater from the roof to keep the drums full. A 1-story solar closet might have a fan-coil unit or about 20′ (6m) of baseboard radiator pipe with fins near the ceiling to make an air-water heat exchanger connected to a warm-water thermosyphoning loop with some insulated pipe through an ordinary water heater on the second floor with a heating element that rarely turns on. In either case, the sunspace and closet need about 64 ft^2 (6m^2) more solar glazing. The sauna area in the closet might have a small woodstove, for burning newspapers, junk mail, old paper towels, college committee recommendations, letters from congressmen, and press releases announcing amazing new price breakthroughs in photovoltaic technology. Nick Notes: 1. Air infiltration robs houses of heat, and electrical power use adds        heat to houses, as do south windows. These things tend to cancel out,        conservatively-speaking, so they aren’t mentioned above. Other helpful        factors not mentioned above are that daytime temperatures inside and        outside the house are higher than nighttime temperatures, and that the        part of the south wall of the house that is covered by the sunspace        needs no heat on an average day.        2. Sunspace airflow volume increases with the square root of the        height. A quote from the Energy Crafted Homes spec: “For optimal        heat flow into the house from the sunspace, install sliding or        French doors between the two. Natural air flow through an open door

… read more »

Response:

no_decaf, you are missing the point. No amount of king’s horses and king’s men can make urban living an efficient use of resources.  Large cities are political creations, designed to assemble voters into bantustans where they become dependent upon the entitlement-program “favors” of politicians.  A large city is an un-natural act. Ask anyone who’s ever worked in a congressman’s office. Only a tiny fraction of incoming correspondence is of the “my opinion on issue XX is…” flavor.  Rather, there is a huge flood of letters that complain about social security checks being late, or of denial of benefits under transfer-payments programs.

Response:

I’m sorry, but I would have to disagree with your first paragraph entirely.  Large cities are *not* unnatural acts/designs.  Have you ever seen a termite nest?  The very idea behind congregations of this magnitude is to help increase in the efficiency of distributing materials.  In terms of *efficiency*, a city can produce a large amount of goods, in a very small amount of time.  In fact, politics (as defined as the creation of rules to help us live together) often interferes in *efficiency*, by requiring child labor, and other such things, to be abolished (at least in the US).  Why? Simple – we want more to life than just efficiency…we also want quality. I guess what I’m getting at is your choice of words…I am not a particularly rabid environmentalist, nor do I routinely read “alt.pave.the.earth”.  I think I am like most people in this respect.  In truth, I want to be able to maximize my opportunities, while minimizing potential difficulties.  Living in a large community, such as a city, allows for the use of large amounts of material in a very small area, thus allowing for more complex projects to be undertaken in a city than near an isolated house in the middle of the “country”.  For example: how many libraries do you see in cities? Now, think about how many you see near the previously mentioned country house.  Unless fantastic new technologies are developed,  then individuals in cities will always have more potential for “development” (in the intellectual sense), just because they are much closer to said learning institutions, and can go to museums, concerts, and plays with a substantially smaller investment of time than an equivalent person living in our country house. Now, I do realize that it would probably have been better to start a new thread with this response, but I didn’t want to bother everybody who reads the newsgroup with my diatribe…if people find it interesting/outrageous, I’m sure it will get around.  Having read through this and several other newsgroups, I have seen that many people in these newsgroups want everybody to switch over to fuels other than the fossil-based variety, so that we may collectively have a better future.  While I agree that there are fuels out there that are substantially cleaner, fossil fuels produce a larger amount of energy per unit volume than most of them.  As a result, many people have gotten used to slightly “dirty” skies, and are willing to live with them in exchange for the many conveniences of modern-day life.  Is exchanging a “clean” planet for modern society a so-called “pact with the Devil”? Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn’t, perhaps it doesn’t matter.  Very few people are swayed by impassioned pleas…they prefer obvious, definite benefits for changing something they currently do / believe in. Thus, I present this as a question…how do you (as groups or as individuals) intend to persuade the world at large that alternative fuels are the way to go?  I am well aware of the calculations that say our world oil supplies will probably be used up in between fifty and one hundred years, based on our current and projected rate of consumption.  Despite these calculations, most people have not been willing to forsake their current style of living, so I am curious as how you intend to convince “average Joe” to switch to alternative fuels.  I look forward to your responses. Sincerely, Scott Ferguson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – no_decaf, you are missing the point. No amount of king’s horses and king’s men can make urban living an efficient use of resources.  Large cities are political creations, designed to assemble voters into bantustans where they become dependent upon the entitlement-program “favors” of politicians.  A large city is an un-natural act. Ask anyone who’s ever worked in a congressman’s office. Only a tiny fraction of incoming correspondence is of the “my opinion on issue XX is…” flavor.  Rather, there is a huge flood of letters that complain about social security checks being late, or of denial of benefits under transfer-payments programs.

Response:

I had my hat on backwards when I said “North”, meant to say “South”.  Hey, I’m old…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Relative to the passive solar house – I’ve always wondered why someone doesn’t put up louvers instead of solid roof overhang on the North side of a house.  If you angled them to match the angle of the Winter sun, heat would enter the house when you wanted, but not in the Summer…. Has been done see http://www.emilis.sa.on.net/emil_60.htm only this is on the bottom half of the planet Emilis

Response:

Nick, I hope you just clipped that post from a document you already had. Poor keyboard  :-) Dan

Relative to the passive solar house – I’ve always wondered why someone doesn’t put up louvers instead of solid roof overhang on the North side of a house.  If you angled them to match the angle of the Winter sun, heat would enter the house when you wanted, but not in the Summer….

Response:

I’m sorry, but I would have to disagree with your first paragraph entirely.  Large cities are *not* unnatural acts/designs.  Have you ever seen a termite nest?  The very idea behind congregations of this magnitude is to help increase in the efficiency of distributing materials.  In terms of *efficiency*, a city can produce a large amount of goods, in a very small amount of time.  In fact, politics (as defined as the creation of rules to help us live together) often interferes in *efficiency*, by requiring child labor, and other such things, to be abolished (at least in the US).  Why? Simple – we want more to life than just efficiency…we also want quality. I guess what I’m getting at is your choice of words…I am not a particularly rabid environmentalist, nor do I routinely read “alt.pave.the.earth”.  I think I am like most people in this respect.  In truth, I want to be able to maximize my opportunities, while minimizing potential difficulties.  Living in a large community, such as a city, allows for the use of large amounts of material in a very small area, thus allowing for more complex projects to be undertaken in a city than near an isolated house in the middle of the “country”.  For example: how many libraries do you see in cities? Now, think about how many you see near the previously mentioned country house.  Unless fantastic new technologies are developed,  then individuals in cities will always have more potential for “development” (in the intellectual sense), just because they are much closer to said learning institutions, and can go to museums, concerts, and plays with a substantially smaller investment of time than an equivalent person living in our country house. Now, I do realize that it would probably have been better to start a new thread with this response, but I didn’t want to bother everybody who reads the newsgroup with my diatribe…if people find it interesting/outrageous, I’m sure it will get around.  Having read through this and several other newsgroups, I have seen that many people in these newsgroups want everybody to switch over to fuels other than the fossil-based variety, so that we may collectively have a better future.  While I agree that there are fuels out there that are substantially cleaner, fossil fuels produce a larger amount of energy per unit volume than most of them.  As a result, many people have gotten used to slightly “dirty” skies, and are willing to live with them in exchange for the many conveniences of modern-day life.  Is exchanging a “clean” planet for modern society a so-called “pact with the Devil”? Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn’t, perhaps it doesn’t matter.  Very few people are swayed by impassioned pleas…they prefer obvious, definite benefits for changing something they currently do / believe in. Thus, I present this as a question…how do you (as groups or as individuals) intend to persuade the world at large that alternative fuels are the way to go?  I am well aware of the calculations that say our world oil supplies will probably be used up in between fifty and one hundred years, based on our current and projected rate of consumption.  Despite these calculations, most people have not been willing to forsake their current style of living, so I am curious as how you intend to convince “average Joe” to switch to alternative fuels.  I look forward to your responses. Sincerely, Scott Ferguson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – no_decaf, you are missing the point. No amount of king’s horses and king’s men can make urban living an efficient use of resources.  Large cities are political creations, designed to assemble voters into bantustans where they become dependent upon the entitlement-program “favors” of politicians.  A large city is an un-natural act. Ask anyone who’s ever worked in a congressman’s office. Only a tiny fraction of incoming correspondence is of the “my opinion on issue XX is…” flavor.  Rather, there is a huge flood of letters that complain about social security checks being late, or of denial of benefits under transfer-payments programs.

Response:

Let me know what you think of this idea. I am building a passive green house on the southern face of my house. Inside I plan on having a water heating system consisting of piping shrouded by fins to heat my water. The semi heated water will go into a holding tank and when needed into the main tank.   Would solar water heating panels work or should I stick with the fin idea (that is from a dealer in solar products locally)? I already have the water heating panels and would like to just use those. But the dealer said that wouldn’t work. I originally planned on placing them no more then 4 inches from the glazing to take advantage of the trtransmittedeat.

Response:

Nick, I hope you just clipped that post from a document you already had. Poor keyboard  :-) Dan

Response:

no_decaf, you are missing the point. No amount of king’s horses and king’s men can make urban living an efficient use of resources.  Large cities are political creations, designed to assemble voters into bantustans where they become dependent upon the entitlement-program “favors” of politicians.  A large city is an un-natural act. Ask anyone who’s ever worked in a congressman’s office. Only a tiny fraction of incoming correspondence is of the “my opinion on issue XX is…” flavor.  Rather, there is a huge flood of letters that complain about social security checks being late, or of denial of benefits under transfer-payments programs.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Step 1. Look up the average outdoor temperature in January, where you live. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory’s free _Solar Radiation Data Manual for Buildings_ has this information for 239 US locations. NREL’s phone number is (303) 275-4099. Where I live, near Philadelphia, the average January temperature is about 30 F or -1 C, and NREL’s manual says that 1,000 Btu/day or 3.3 kWh/m^2 of sun falls on a south wall here on an average January day, with a ground reflectance of about 0.2. A reflective surface in front of the wall like ice or snow or white paint might add 30% to the solar power that falls on the wall.   Step 2. Estimate how much energy your house needs to stay warm on an average Jan day. For example, a very-well-insulated 30′ x 30′ (10mx10m) 2-story house with about 2,000 square feet (200 m^2) of average US R20 (metric R3.5) walls and 1,000 ft^2 of R40 ceiling (100 m^2 of metric R7 ceiling) needs approximately 2,000ft^2/R20 + 1000ft^2/R40 = 125 Btu per hour per degree F or 37 watts to stay 68 F inside when it’s 67 F outside. The energy needed to keep a house warm is 24 (hours) times the product of (1) the difference between the average indoor and outdoor temperatures and (2) the thermal conductance of the house, ie the sum of each exterior surface area divided by its R-value. The number of kWh/day needed to keep a house warm is 3400 times less than the number of Btu, using the same formula with different units. This example house needs 24 hr x (68 F – 30 F) x 125 Btu/hr-F = 114,000 Btu or 33 kWh to stay warm on an average January day, the approximate heat equivalent of a gallon of oil. Step 3. Calculate how large a sunspace the house needs to stay warm, ie how much vertical south glass or plastic film glazing area a low-thermal-mass sunspace needs to gather enough solar heat to keep the house warm on an average Jan day with an average amount of sun. If the low-thermal-mass sunspace has an insulated low-thermal-mass wall between it and the house, ie a non-masonry floor and a non-masonry wall, with no rocks nor bricks nor water containers nor collections of scrap iron inside the sunspace, with a window fan to move most of the warm air into the house during the day, the sunspace will be about 68 F (20 C) during the day. If we let the sunspace get icy cold at night, the heat lost from the glazing over an average 6 hour Jan day will be about 6x(68F-30F)1 ft^2/USR1 = 228 Btu/ft^2 or 6x(20C-(-1C))1m^2/R0.176 = 716 wh/day, so the sunspace glazing can provide about 1000-228 = 772 Btu/ft^2 or 3.3-0.716 = 2.6 kWh to the house on an average Jan day, in this example. The example house needs about 114,000,000/772 = 150 sq. feet or 33/2.6 = 12.7 m^2 of sunspace glazing to keep it warm on an average day. Say, a 16′ high x 16′ wide x 12′ deep (5m x 5m x 4m) lean-to plastic film greenhouse, made from standard commercial greenhouse hardware, including 5 long curved galvanized pipes costing $35 each, with a lightweight gravel floor over plastic film on the ground. Step 4. Estimate how many cloudy days in a row there are in January, where you live, and what the outdoor temperature is during those days. In some places, cloudy days and nights are warmer than days and nights in sunny weather, because the clouds act as insulation. (US residents can be more precise about this by buying a $130 CD ROM from NREL/NOAA which includes 30 year’s worth of _hourly_ solar weather data for their locations, and looking over the data for long sunless periods with low air temperatures, ie “cloudy degree day” periods, or running a very simple computer simulation of a particular solar house to estimate the interior temperature every hour for 20 years and predict daily temperature swings.) Suppose this example house is in a climate in which we expect at most 5 cloudy Jan days in a row with 99% confidence, with an average outdoor temperature during those days of 30 F (-1 C), ie we expect colder and cloudier periods to occur only every 100 years. Step 5. Calculate how many sealed 55 gallon or 200 liter plastic drums full of water (or 5 gallon pails or 2 liter soda bottles or canned goods on shelves) are needed inside the closet to keep the house warm for that cloudy period. The example house needs 5×114K = 570K Btu or 167 kWh to stay warm for 5 cloudy days. If the water in the drums is, say 130 F (54 C), and the drums can keep the house warm until the water cools to, say, 80 F (27 C), then each drum stores about 25K Btu or 6 kWh of useful heat, and the house needs 570K/25K = 23 55 gallon or 167/6 = 28 200 liter drums. We might keep the drums at 54 C by building an “solar closet,” ie a box that is completely surrounded by insulation, behind the sunspace, ideally inside the house, with an air heater as part of the insulated wall between the sunspace and the house, using some transparent “solar siding,” eg Home Depot’s “Paltough” corrugated polycarbonate plastic, costing about $1/ft^2, or Replex’s ((800) 726-5151) clear flat polycarbonate plastic, which costs about $1.25 per square foot ($13/m^2) and comes in long rolls, 49 inches wide. The transparent siding might have some black aluminum window screen or greenhouse shadecloth to the north and behind it, with an air gap on each side of the shadecloth, to reduce reradiation and increase the solar collection efficiency of the closet. 80% carbon-filled polypropylene shadecloth costs about 15 cents per square foot or $2/m^2 and should last many years out of the weather. Shadecloth comes in various colors. We might have a 1″ (3 cm) air gap between the siding and the shadecloth, and another 1″ gap between the shadecloth and 3 1/2″ (10 cm) of fiberglass insulation in a 6″ (15 cm) wall, with some small vents (about 1% of the closet glazing area, eg 1 square foot or 0.1 m^2 in the example house) at the top and bottom of this air heater, to allow cooler air from the solar closet to flow into the outside air gap through the vent hole at the bottom of the air heater, which would then flow horizontally through the shadecloth from south to north, becoming warmer, and rise up and flow back through the upper vent hole and back into the closet. The vent holes might have plastic-film backdraft dampers to keep air from flowing when the sun is not shining. These require checking every week or so, since they can stick open, and if they are large enough to pass air well, they lose significant heat through the US R1 plastic film. They might be made from chicken wire and the plastic film used for dry cleaner bags. Using a small fan can reduce thermal losses and raise solar collection efficiency. The inside walls of the closet could simply be fiberglass insulation, covered with plastic film. The floor might be earth, covered with more plastic film. The spaces between the sealed containers of water allow air to circulate around them, heating or cooling them. We need a room-temperature-sensitive vent (eg a $12 automatic foundation vent with its bimetallic spring reversed to open some louver as temperature drops) or a fan that turns on between the closet and house on cool cloudy days, and a return air path from the house to the closet near the floor. The example house might have 24 2′ diameter x 3′ high drums stacked 2 high in 2 rows of 6 drums making the solar closet about 8′ high x 12′ long x 4′ deep. ie about 3m high x 4m long x 1m deep. We might make it 6′ (2m) longer, and use the empty space for a sauna, or a place to dry clothes. The closet might have 3 1/2″ (10 cm) of fiberglass insulation in its ceiling, ie the second floor of the house, as well as in the other walls inside the house. Most of the “waste heat” from this closet ends up in the house, and it provides very little heat for the house on an average winter day, with some sun. On such a day, the house is almost entirely heated by the warm air from the sunspace. If the closet were 2 stories tall, 1 or 2 plastic drums with threaded bungs at the top might be plumbed in series to make a low-pressure gravity-fed hot water system using a float valve or rainwater from the roof to keep the drums full. A 1-story solar closet might have a fan-coil unit or about 20′ (6m) of baseboard radiator pipe with fins near the ceiling to make an air-water heat exchanger connected to a warm-water thermosyphoning loop with some insulated pipe through an ordinary water heater on the second floor with a heating element that rarely turns on. In either case, the sunspace and closet need about 64 ft^2 (6m^2) more solar glazing. The sauna area in the closet might have a small woodstove, for burning newspapers, junk mail, old paper towels, college committee recommendations, letters from congressmen, and press releases announcing amazing new price breakthroughs in photovoltaic technology. Nick Notes: 1. Air infiltration robs houses of heat, and electrical power use adds        heat to houses, as do south windows. These things tend to cancel out,        conservatively-speaking, so they aren’t mentioned above. Other helpful        factors not mentioned above are that daytime temperatures inside and        outside the house are higher than nighttime temperatures, and that the        part of the south wall of the house that is covered by the sunspace        needs no heat on an average day.        2. Sunspace airflow volume increases with the square root of the        height. A quote from the Energy Crafted Homes spec: “For optimal        heat flow into the house from the sunspace, install sliding or        French doors between the two. Natural air flow through an open door

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Response:

Step 1. Gather some weather data. The most-difficult month for solar house heating is the one with the lowest ratio of average solar energy to indoor-outdoor temperature difference, ie the lowest amount of “sun per degree day.” The long-term average outdoor temperatures near Philadelphia, PA are 35.8 and 30.4 F (TB, in the calculation below) in December and January, with 900 and 1,000 Btu/ft^2 of sun (SS, below) falling on a south wall on an average day. This makes January the worst-case month for house heating, with 1,000/(68-30.4) = 26.6 Btu/F, vs 900/(68-35.8) = 28 in December. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory’s free “Solar Radiation Data Manual for Buildings” (http://rredc.nrel.gov) has solar weather data for 239 US locations. NREL’s phone number is (303) 275-4099. The average daily maximum temperature in January is 37.9 F in Phila. NREL’s manual says an average of 620 Btu/ft^2 of sun per day falls on a horizontal surface, east and west walls receive about 420, and a north wall gets 190. How many cloudy days in a row, and what is the temperature then? In some places, cloudy days and nights are warmer than days and nights in sunny weather, because clouds act as insulation. NREL’s TMY2 weather data or one of their 3 CD-ROMs might help answer this question. Their _hourly_ solar weather data for 239 US locations. We might look for long low-temperatue “cloudy degree-day” periods, or or do a simple computer simulation of a particular solar house design to estimate the interior temperature every hour for 30 years, or the total amount of backup heat required. Then again, some people define a “solar house” as “one with no other form of heat.” The issue then becomes comfort, vs “solar fraction.” Suppose our house is in a climate in which we expect at most 5 cloudy days in a row with 99% confidence, with an average outdoor temperature during those days of 30 F (-1 C)… Step 2. Gather some house data The thermal conductance of a house is the sum of each exterior surface area divided by its R-value, plus an effective conductance for air leaks. For example, a fairly airtight and well-insulated 32′x32′ (10mx10m) 2-story house with 2,048 square feet (190 m^2) of US R30 (metric R5.3) walls and 80 ft^2 of R4 windows (7.4 m^2 at 0.7 m^2C/W) and 1,024 ft^2 of R40 ceiling (95 m^2 at metric R7) and a natural air leakage rate of 0.3 house volume Air Changes per Hour has a thermal conductance of about 1,968ft^2/R30 + 80ft^2/R4 + 1024ft^2/R40 + 30×30x16×0.3/55 = 164 Btu per hour per degree F difference between indoor and outdoor temperatures (HC, below.) It needs about 164 Btu or 48 watts to stay 68 F indoors when it’s 67 F outdoors. The daily house heating energy needed is 24 (h) times the product of the thermal conductance of the house and the difference between the average indoor and outdoor temperatures. Our example house needs about 24h(68F-30F)x164Btu/h-F = 150K Btu (EDAY, below) or 44 kWh to stay warm on an average January day, roughly equivalent to a gallon of oil. (The yearly energy needed to keep a house warm is 24 times the conductance times the number of heating degree days per year, 5,500 (F) for Phila.) Some of this energy comes from the occupants and their electrical usage. Each person makes about 100 watts of heat power, and a kilowatt-hour is equivalent to 3,412 Btu of heat energy. If our house has an average of 1 person inside and uses 500 kWh per month (an average of 694 watts) of electrical energy, it gains about 0.794×24 = 19 kWh or 65K Btu/day (INTHEAT, below) of heat from internal sources. Sun also shines into house windows. If our house has equal window areas facing 4 compass directions, and they have 70% solar transmittance, it gains another 20ft^2×0.7x(1000+420+420+190) = 28K Btu of solar heat (WINHEAT) on an average January day. So we need 150K Btu/day of heat, of which 65K comes from internal sources and 28K from windows, leaving an additional solar heating requirement of 150K-65K-28K = 57K Btu (SDAY) on an average January day. The inherent thermal mass of a house can store solar heat on an average day, if it is allowed to cool at night. If our house has 4×32x16 = 2,048 square feet of external walls and another 2,048 ft^2 of internal walls and 3×1,024 ft^2 of ceiling and floors, ie 7,168 ft^2 of surface, all covered with 1/2″ drywall or something with equivalent heat capacity (1/2 Btu/F-ft^2), the total capacity of the house is 7,168×0.5 = 3,584 Btu/F, ie the house can store 3,584 Btu for each degree F of day/night temperature swing. With a 10 F swing (eg 70 F during the day and 60 F at night, our house could store 35,840 Btu (SWINGHEAT, below.) (1) After a house is 100% solar heated, the next largest energy need is often hot water. Suppose our house needs enough hot water for 4 10-minute showers per day, heating 3 gallons of water per minute from 60 F to 110 F. Heating a pound of water 1 F takes 1 Btu, so we need 4×10mx3gpmx8lb/gal(110F-60F) = 48K Btu/day (WATHEAT) for hot water. Step 3. Solar closet sizing. We need 57K Btu of additional solar heat on an average January day. A sunspace keeping our house warm for 6 hours can supplies 6/24(57K) = 14K Btu, which leaves 43K, of which the house itself can store and supply 35.8K, leaving 7K. Adding another 48K Btu for heating water makes a total of 55K Btu/day (ESCUSE.) Suppose that comes from a “solar closet” inside the sunspace, ie a box full of sealed containers of water completely surrounded by insulation, with a solar air heater over its insulated south wall. The water is heated by solar warmed-air from the air heater. The sun doesn’t shine on the water containers. Solar closets live inside sunspaces, but they have their own glazings and air circulation. Sunspace air never mixes with closet air. Solar closets need to be fairly airtight. Air leaks between the sunspace and the outdoors are less important. The closet air heater glazing might be Replex’s (800) 726-5151 clear flat polycarbonate plastic, which has a 10 year guarantee and costs about $1.25/ft^2 ($13/m^2) and comes in long rolls 49 inches wide by 0.02 inches thick. Rimol Greenhouse Systems at (603) 425-6563 (NH) sells it for $250/roll + $10 UPS. It can be cut with scissors. Suppose we design the closet so the water inside is 130 F after a long string of average days, in which each square foot of its glazing gains 0.9×0.9×1000 Btu of sun and loses about 6h(130F-100F)1ft^2/R1 to a 100 F sunspace during the day plus something like 18h(130F-30F)1ft^2/R20 at night, for a net gain of 540 Btu/day. Then storing 55K Btu/day of sun takes about 55K/540 = 100 ft^2 of closet glazing (AGC.) A 1 cfm airstream with a 1 F temperature difference carries about 1 Btu/h (1 m^3/s with a 1 C difference carries about 1 kW), so “charging” the closet with air that enters 10 F warmer than air that leaves (to keep the air heater cool and efficient) requires an airflow of about 55KBtu/6h/10F = 900 cfm. “Discharging” the closet at night or on cloudy days takes about (148K-65K)Btu/24h/10 F = 350 cfm (SCDCFM.) Our house needs 5x(150K-65K) = 425K Btu (ECL) or 125 kWh to stay warm for 5 cloudy days in a row. If the closet water starts out at 130 F (54 C), and it keeps the house warm until it cools to, say, 80 F (27 C), then the closet needs 425KBtu/(130F-80F) = 8.3K Btu/F of thermal capacity (CC), eg about 8,300 pounds of water. The closet thermal mass also needs sufficient area to allow heat to flow efficiently between the air and the water through the container surfaces. Having 10X or more thermal mass surface than glazing surface allows heat to flow from air into water with a low air-water delta-T: if each square foot of glazing collects 540 Btu over 6 hours, ie 90 Btu/h, which flows into 10 ft^2 of container surface with a slowly-moving air film thermal conductance of 1.5 Btu/h-F, DT = 6 F. We could increase thermal mass surface by using more drums, or putting hollow concrete blocks under the drums (each 8×8x16″ block adds 6 ft^2 and 5 Btu/F.) In that case, we might well draw air through the blocks with fans, since moving air at V mph past a rough surface raises the thermal conductance to 2 + V/2 Btu/h-F, which lowers the needed surface. A 10′x4″ PVC pipe threaded through block holes adds 10 ft^2 and 50 Btu/F, at a cost of about $6, including 2 end caps and a #3 rubber stopper. We can increase container surface by using smaller containers. Plastic soda bottles might lose 10% of their contents each year by moisture vapor transmission. Milk jugs are easier to support and hold more water per cubic foot, and their cross-linked polyethylene walls have about half the vapor transmission of PET soda bottles. Recycled 5 gallon plastic pails (about 1′tall x 1′diam.) with tight-fitting lids are easy to ship, since they nest… A 2′ high x 3′ diameter 55 gallon drum has about 25 ft^2 of surface. A 1 gallon plastic milk jug (about 15 cents each, new, with a screw top, or 50 cents, already filled with water) is about 6″ square x 10″ tall, with about 2 ft^2 of surface. We might use D drums and J jugs on shelves. With 100 ft^2 of glazing, the total surface requirement is 1,000 ft^2 < 25D + 2J, and we need 8,300 < 55×8D + 8J for thermal mass. Combining these constraints, 8,300 – 4000 < 55×8D – 100D, so we might use 12 drums and 344 jugs on shelves made from 1×3s on 4″ centers screwed to 2 4′ 2×4s on 4′ centers, which in turn rest on concrete blocks. Supporting the shelves with 2×4 posts instead leaves more room for 36 jugs on each 4′x4′ shelf made from 12 4′ 1×3s. With 8×8x12″ = 0.44 ft^3/jug, we need 153 ft^3 for 344 jugs and another 12×2x2×3′= 144 ft^3 for 12 drums. We might use 2 8×8′ single pane sliding glass doors to make a 16′ wide x 8′ tall x 4′ deep 512 ft^3 closet with a 4′x6′ area for 12 drums stacked 2-high over a 2′ high x 10′ long shelf made with 3 layers of 15 hollow blocks on 1′ centers threaded with 18 10′x 4″ … read more »

Response:

Step 1. Look up the average outdoor temperature in January, where you live. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory’s free _Solar Radiation Data Manual for Buildings_ has this information for 239 US locations. NREL’s phone number is (303) 275-4099. Where I live, near Philadelphia, the average January temperature is about 30 F or -1 C, and NREL’s manual says that 1,000 Btu/day or 3.3 kWh/m^2 of sun falls on a south wall here on an average January day, with a ground reflectance of about 0.2. A reflective surface in front of the wall like ice or snow or white paint might add 30% to the solar power that falls on the wall.   Step 2. Estimate how much energy your house needs to stay warm on an average Jan day. For example, a very-well-insulated 30′ x 30′ (10mx10m) 2-story house with about 2,000 square feet (200 m^2) of average US R20 (metric R3.5) walls and 1,000 ft^2 of R40 ceiling (100 m^2 of metric R7 ceiling) needs approximately 2,000ft^2/R20 + 1000ft^2/R40 = 125 Btu per hour per degree F or 37 watts to stay 68 F inside when it’s 67 F outside. The energy needed to keep a house warm is 24 (hours) times the product of (1) the difference between the average indoor and outdoor temperatures and (2) the thermal conductance of the house, ie the sum of each exterior surface area divided by its R-value. The number of kWh/day needed to keep a house warm is 3400 times less than the number of Btu, using the same formula with different units. This example house needs 24 hr x (68 F – 30 F) x 125 Btu/hr-F = 114,000 Btu or 33 kWh to stay warm on an average January day, the approximate heat equivalent of a gallon of oil. Step 3. Calculate how large a sunspace the house needs to stay warm, ie how much vertical south glass or plastic film glazing area a low-thermal-mass sunspace needs to gather enough solar heat to keep the house warm on an average Jan day with an average amount of sun. If the low-thermal-mass sunspace has an insulated low-thermal-mass wall between it and the house, ie a non-masonry floor and a non-masonry wall, with no rocks nor bricks nor water containers nor collections of scrap iron inside the sunspace, with a window fan to move most of the warm air into the house during the day, the sunspace will be about 68 F (20 C) during the day. If we let the sunspace get icy cold at night, the heat lost from the glazing over an average 6 hour Jan day will be about 6x(68F-30F)1 ft^2/USR1 = 228 Btu/ft^2 or 6x(20C-(-1C))1m^2/R0.176 = 716 wh/day, so the sunspace glazing can provide about 1000-228 = 772 Btu/ft^2 or 3.3-0.716 = 2.6 kWh to the house on an average Jan day, in this example. The example house needs about 114,000,000/772 = 150 sq. feet or 33/2.6 = 12.7 m^2 of sunspace glazing to keep it warm on an average day. Say, a 16′ high x 16′ wide x 12′ deep (5m x 5m x 4m) lean-to plastic film greenhouse, made from standard commercial greenhouse hardware, including 5 long curved galvanized pipes costing $35 each, with a lightweight gravel floor over plastic film on the ground. Step 4. Estimate how many cloudy days in a row there are in January, where you live, and what the outdoor temperature is during those days. In some places, cloudy days and nights are warmer than days and nights in sunny weather, because the clouds act as insulation. (US residents can be more precise about this by buying a $130 CD ROM from NREL/NOAA which includes 30 year’s worth of _hourly_ solar weather data for their locations, and looking over the data for long sunless periods with low air temperatures, ie “cloudy degree day” periods, or running a very simple computer simulation of a particular solar house to estimate the interior temperature every hour for 20 years and predict daily temperature swings.) Suppose this example house is in a climate in which we expect at most 5 cloudy Jan days in a row with 99% confidence, with an average outdoor temperature during those days of 30 F (-1 C), ie we expect colder and cloudier periods to occur only every 100 years. Step 5. Calculate how many sealed 55 gallon or 200 liter plastic drums full of water (or 5 gallon pails or 2 liter soda bottles or canned goods on shelves) are needed inside the closet to keep the house warm for that cloudy period. The example house needs 5×114K = 570K Btu or 167 kWh to stay warm for 5 cloudy days. If the water in the drums is, say 130 F (54 C), and the drums can keep the house warm until the water cools to, say, 80 F (27 C), then each drum stores about 25K Btu or 6 kWh of useful heat, and the house needs 570K/25K = 23 55 gallon or 167/6 = 28 200 liter drums. We might keep the drums at 54 C by building an “solar closet,” ie a box that is completely surrounded by insulation, behind the sunspace, ideally inside the house, with an air heater as part of the insulated wall between the sunspace and the house, using some transparent “solar siding,” eg Home Depot’s “Paltough” corrugated polycarbonate plastic, costing about $1/ft^2, or Replex’s ((800) 726-5151) clear flat polycarbonate plastic, which costs about $1.25 per square foot ($13/m^2) and comes in long rolls, 49 inches wide. The transparent siding might have some black aluminum window screen or greenhouse shadecloth to the north and behind it, with an air gap on each side of the shadecloth, to reduce reradiation and increase the solar collection efficiency of the closet. 80% carbon-filled polypropylene shadecloth costs about 15 cents per square foot or $2/m^2 and should last many years out of the weather. Shadecloth comes in various colors. We might have a 1″ (3 cm) air gap between the siding and the shadecloth, and another 1″ gap between the shadecloth and 3 1/2″ (10 cm) of fiberglass insulation in a 6″ (15 cm) wall, with some small vents (about 1% of the closet glazing area, eg 1 square foot or 0.1 m^2 in the example house) at the top and bottom of this air heater, to allow cooler air from the solar closet to flow into the outside air gap through the vent hole at the bottom of the air heater, which would then flow horizontally through the shadecloth from south to north, becoming warmer, and rise up and flow back through the upper vent hole and back into the closet. The vent holes might have plastic-film backdraft dampers to keep air from flowing when the sun is not shining. These require checking every week or so, since they can stick open, and if they are large enough to pass air well, they lose significant heat through the US R1 plastic film. They might be made from chicken wire and the plastic film used for dry cleaner bags. Using a small fan can reduce thermal losses and raise solar collection efficiency. The inside walls of the closet could simply be fiberglass insulation, covered with plastic film. The floor might be earth, covered with more plastic film. The spaces between the sealed containers of water allow air to circulate around them, heating or cooling them. We need a room-temperature-sensitive vent (eg a $12 automatic foundation vent with its bimetallic spring reversed to open some louver as temperature drops) or a fan that turns on between the closet and house on cool cloudy days, and a return air path from the house to the closet near the floor. The example house might have 24 2′ diameter x 3′ high drums stacked 2 high in 2 rows of 6 drums making the solar closet about 8′ high x 12′ long x 4′ deep. ie about 3m high x 4m long x 1m deep. We might make it 6′ (2m) longer, and use the empty space for a sauna, or a place to dry clothes. The closet might have 3 1/2″ (10 cm) of fiberglass insulation in its ceiling, ie the second floor of the house, as well as in the other walls inside the house. Most of the “waste heat” from this closet ends up in the house, and it provides very little heat for the house on an average winter day, with some sun. On such a day, the house is almost entirely heated by the warm air from the sunspace. If the closet were 2 stories tall, 1 or 2 plastic drums with threaded bungs at the top might be plumbed in series to make a low-pressure gravity-fed hot water system using a float valve or rainwater from the roof to keep the drums full. A 1-story solar closet might have a fan-coil unit or about 20′ (6m) of baseboard radiator pipe with fins near the ceiling to make an air-water heat exchanger connected to a warm-water thermosyphoning loop with some insulated pipe through an ordinary water heater on the second floor with a heating element that rarely turns on. In either case, the sunspace and closet need about 64 ft^2 (6m^2) more solar glazing. The sauna area in the closet might have a small woodstove, for burning newspapers, junk mail, old paper towels, college committee recommendations, letters from congressmen, and press releases announcing amazing new price breakthroughs in photovoltaic technology. Nick Notes: 1. Air infiltration robs houses of heat, and electrical power use adds        heat to houses, as do south windows. These things tend to cancel out,        conservatively-speaking, so they aren’t mentioned above. Other helpful        factors not mentioned above are that daytime temperatures inside and        outside the house are higher than nighttime temperatures, and that the        part of the south wall of the house that is covered by the sunspace        needs no heat on an average day.        2. Sunspace airflow volume increases with the square root of the height.        A quote from the Energy Crafted Homes spec: “For optimal heat flow into        the house from the sunspace, install sliding or French doors between        the two. Natural air flow through an open door can be as high as 1000        cfm… most effective if a complete loop through the house is possible-        two-story sunspaces can be tremendously effective at heating a house        for this reason.” A two-story sunspace probably needs no fan. It might        operate automatically with a 2 watt $50 Honeywell 6161B1000 damper        motor in series with two thermostats,

… read more »

Response:

The National Renewable Energy Laboratory’s free _Solar Radiation Data Manual for Buildings_ has this information for 239 US locations. NREL’s phone number is (303) 275-4099.

The NREL web site has much of this information also. http://rredc.nrel.gov/ Or see: http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/ sdb

Response:

Relative to the passive solar house – I’ve always wondered why someone doesn’t put up louvers instead of solid roof overhang on the North side of a house.  If you angled them to match the angle of the Winter sun, heat would enter the house when you wanted, but not in the Summer….

Has been done see http://www.emilis.sa.on.net/emil_60.htm only this is on the bottom half of the planet Emilis

Response:

: Nick, I hope you just clipped that post from a document you already had. Nope. Nice fresh prose. Typed every character. :Relative to the passive solar house – I’ve always wondered why someone :doesn’t put up louvers instead of solid roof overhang on the North side :o f a house. In the southern hemisphere… :If you angled them to match the angle of the Winter sun, heat would :enter the house when you wanted, but not in the Summer…. I’ve seen them on solar houses, and also on the back windows of sports cars. “Bris-soleil,” ie “sun-breaker” in French. Norman Saunders, PE, has a patent on a “solar staircase” with horizontal reflectors and vertical glazing. Surely a better idea would be to plant deciduous trees – leaves in the summer and no leaves in the winter!  Also they look better that louvres!

It’s hard to shade a house from high summer sun with trees, and not have big branches that can fall on the roof. Runner beans, maybe, or clematis, trumpet vines, honeysuckle, grapes, and so on. Or some gaily decorated greenhouse shadecloth. Nick      In my country, progress in love follows progress in architecture.      First we had jalousies, then we had louvers.                   Bertle Lucas, Harbormaster, Port au Spain, Trinidad.

Response:

: : :

: : Nick, I hope you just clipped that post from a document you already had. : Poor keyboard  :-) : : Dan : :Relative to the passive solar house – I’ve always wondered why someone :doesn’t put up louvers instead of solid roof overhang on the North side of a :house.  If you angled them to match the angle of the Winter sun, heat would :enter the house when you wanted, but not in the Summer…. : Surely a better idea would be to plant deciduous trees – leaves in the summer and no leaves in the winter!  Also they look better that louvres! // John Fulton, Ngaio, Wellington NEW ZEALAND // Phone +64 4 4792043  FAX +64 4 4792043

Response:

[I've corrected sunspace sizing and house thermal mass errors, and added some information about the effects of different sunspace temperatures.] Step 1. Gather some weather data. The most-difficult month for solar house heating is the one with the lowest ratio of average solar energy to indoor-outdoor temperature difference, ie the lowest amount of “sun per degree day.” The long-term average outdoor temperatures near Philadelphia, PA are 35.8 and 30.4 F (TB, in the calculation below) in December and January, with 900 and 1,000 Btu/ft^2 of sun (SS, below) falling on a south wall on an average day. This makes January the worst-case month for house heating, with 1,000/(68-30.4) = 26.6 Btu/F, vs 900/(68-35.8) = 28 in December. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory’s free “Solar Radiation Data Manual for Buildings” (http://rredc.nrel.gov) has solar weather data for 239 US locations. NREL’s phone number is (303) 275-4099. The average daily maximum temperature in January is 37.9 F in Phila. NREL’s manual says an average of 620 Btu/ft^2 of sun per day falls on a horizontal surface, east and west walls receive about 420, and a north wall gets 190. How many cloudy days in a row, and what is the temperature then? In some places, cloudy days and nights are warmer than days and nights in sunny weather, because clouds act as insulation. NREL’s TMY2 weather data or one of their 3 CD-ROMs might help answer this question. Their _hourly_ solar weather data for 239 US locations. We might look for long low-temperature “cloudy degree-day” periods, or or do a simple computer simulation of a particular solar house design to estimate the interior temperature every hour for 30 years, or the total amount of backup heat required. Then again, some people define a “solar house” as “one with no other form of heat.” The issue then becomes comfort, vs “solar fraction.” Suppose our house is in a climate in which we expect at most 5 cloudy days in a row with 99% confidence, with an average outdoor temperature during those days of 30 F (-1 C)… Step 2. Gather some house data The thermal conductance of a house is the sum of each exterior surface area divided by its R-value, plus an effective conductance for air leaks. For example, a fairly airtight and very well-insulated 32′x32′ (10mx10m) 2-story house with 2,048 square feet (190 m^2) of US R30 (metric R5.3) walls and 80 ft^2 of R4 windows (7.4 m^2 at 0.7 m^2C/W) and 1,024 ft^2 of R40 ceiling (95 m^2 at metric R7) and a natural air leakage rate of 0.3 house volume Air Changes per Hour has a thermal conductance of about 1,968ft^2/R30 + 80ft^2/R4 + 1024ft^2/R40 + 30×30x16×0.3/55 = 164 Btu per hour per degree F difference between indoor and outdoor temperatures (HC, below.) It needs about 164 Btu or 48 watts to stay 68 F indoors when it’s 67 F outdoors. The daily house heating energy needed is 24 (h) times the product of the thermal conductance of the house and the difference between the average indoor and outdoor temperatures. Our example house needs about 24h(65F-30F)x164Btu/h-F = 136K Btu (EDAY, below) or 40 kWh to stay warm on an average January day, roughly equivalent to a gallon of oil. (The yearly energy needed to keep a house warm is 24 times the conductance times the number of heating degree days per year, 5,500 (F) for Phila.) Some of this energy comes from the occupants and their electrical usage. Each person makes about 100 watts of heat power, and a kilowatt-hour is equivalent to 3,412 Btu of heat energy. If our house has an average of 1 person inside and uses 500 kWh per month (an average of 694 watts) of electrical energy, it gains about 0.794×24 = 19 kWh or 65K Btu/day (INTHEAT, below) of heat from internal sources. Sun also shines into house windows. If our house has equal window areas facing 4 compass directions, and they have 70% solar transmittance, it gains another 20ft^2×0.7x(1000+420+420+190) = 28K Btu of solar heat (WINHEAT) on an average January day. So we need 136K Btu/day of heat, of which 65K comes from internal sources and 28K from windows, leaving an additional solar heating requirement of 136K-65K-28K = 43K Btu (SDAY) on an average January day. The inherent thermal mass of a house can store solar heat on an average day, if it is allowed to cool at night. If our house has 4×32x16 = 2,048 square feet of external walls and another 1,024 ft^2 of internal walls and 3×1,024 ft^2 of ceiling and floors, ie 6,144 ft^2 of surface, all covered with 1/2″ drywall or something with equivalent heat capacity (1/2 Btu/F-ft^2), the total capacity of the house is 6,144×0.5 = 3,072 Btu/F, ie it can store 3,072 Btu per degree F. With a 10 F day/night temperature swing (eg 70 F during the day and 60 F at night, it can store 30,724 Btu (SWINGHEAT, below.) With a few more internal walls, this house wouldn’t need any extra overnight heat on an average January day. (1) After a house is 100% solar heated, the next largest energy need is often hot water. Suppose our house needs enough hot water for 4 10-minute showers per day, heating 3 gallons of water per minute from 60 F to 110 F. Heating a pound of water 1 F takes 1 Btu, so we need 4×10mx3gpmx8lb/gal(110F-60F) = 48K Btu/day (WATHEAT) for hot water. Step 3. Solar closet sizing. We need 43K Btu of additional solar heat on an average January day. A sunspace keeping our house warm for 6 hours can supply 6/24(43K) = 11K Btu, which leaves 32K, of which the house itself can store and supply 30.7K, leaving about 2K. Adding another 48K Btu for heating water makes a total of 50K Btu/day (ESCUSE.) Suppose that comes from a “solar closet” inside the sunspace, ie a box full of sealed containers of water completely surrounded by insulation, with a solar air heater over its insulated south wall. The water is heated by solar warmed-air from the air heater. The sun doesn’t shine on the water containers. Solar closets live inside sunspaces, but they have their own glazings and air circulation. Sunspace air never mixes with closet air. Solar closets need to be fairly airtight. Air leaks between the sunspace and the outdoors are less important. The closet air heater glazing might be Replex’s (800) 726-5151 clear flat polycarbonate plastic, which has a 10 year guarantee and costs about $1.25/ft^2 ($13/m^2) and comes in long rolls 49 inches wide by 0.02 inches thick. Rimol Greenhouse Systems at (603) 425-6563 (NH) sells it for $250/roll + $10 UPS. It can be cut with scissors. Suppose we design the closet so the water inside is 130 F after a long string of average days. Each square foot of its glazing gains 810 Btu of sun per day, if it’s not shaded much by the sunspace. With R20 south wall insulation behind the glazing, it loses about 6h(130F-100F)1ft^2/R1 to a 100 F sunspace during the day plus 18h(130F-30F)1ft^2/R21 at night, for a net gain of about 540 Btu/day (SCNET.) Storing 50K Btu/day of sun takes about 50K/540 = 90 ft^2 of closet glazing (AGC.) A 1 cfm airstream with a 1 F temperature difference carries about 1 Btu/h (1 m^3/s with a 1 C difference carries about 1 kW), so “charging” the closet heat battery with air that enters 10 F warmer than air that leaves (to keep the air heater cool and efficient) requires an airflow of about 50KBtu/6h/10F = 830 cfm. “Discharging” the closet at night or on cloudy days takes about (136K-65K)Btu/24h/10 F = 300 cfm (SCDCFM.) Our house needs 5(136K-65K) = 356K Btu (ECL) or 104 kWh to stay warm for 5 cloudy days in a row. If the closet water starts out at 130 F (54 C), and it keeps the house warm until it cools to, say, 80 F (27 C), then the closet needs 356KBtu/(130F-80F) = 7.1K Btu/F of thermal capacity (CC), eg about 7,100 pounds of water. The closet thermal mass also needs sufficient area to allow heat to flow efficiently between the air and the water through the container surface. Having 10X thermal mass surface than glazing surface allows heatflow with a low air-water delta-T: if each square foot of glazing collects 540 Btu over 6 hours, ie 90 Btu/h, which flows into 10 ft^2 of container surface with a slowly-moving air film thermal conductance of 1.5 Btu/h-F, DT = 90/(10×1.5) = 6 F, by “Ohm’s law for heatflow.” We could increase thermal mass surface by using more drums, or putting hollow concrete blocks under the drums (each 8×8x16″ block adds 6 ft^2 and 5 Btu/F.) In that case, we might well draw air through the blocks with fans, since moving air at V mph past a rough surface raises the thermal conductance to 2 + V/2 Btu/h-F, which lowers the needed surface. A 10′x4″ PVC pipe threaded through block holes adds 10 ft^2 and 50 Btu/F, at a cost of about $6, including 2 end caps and a #3 rubber stopper. We can increase container surface by using smaller containers. Plastic soda bottles might lose 10% of their contents each year by moisture vapor transmission. Milk jugs are easier to support and hold more water per cubic foot, and their cross-linked polyethylene walls have about half the vapor transmission of PET soda bottles. Recycled 5 gallon plastic pails (about 1′tall x 1′diam.) with tight-fitting lids are easy to ship, since they nest… A 2′ high x 3′ diameter 55 gallon drum has about 25 ft^2 of surface. A 1 gallon plastic milk jug (about 15 cents each, new, with a screw top, or 50 cents, already filled with water) is about 6″ square x 10″ tall, with about 2 ft^2 of surface. We might use D drums and J jugs on shelves. With 90 ft^2 of glazing, the surface requirement is 900 ft^2 < 25D + 2J, and we need 7,100 < 55×8D + 8J for thermal mass. Combining constraints, 7,100 – 4000 < 55×8D – 100D, so we might use 10 drums and 330 jugs on 4×4’shelves made from 12 4′ 1×3s on 4″ centers screwed to 2 4′ 2×4s on 4′ centers, which in turn rest on concrete blocks. Supporting the shelves with 2×4 posts instead leaves more room for 36 jugs on each 4′x4′ shelf. With 8×8x12″ = 0.44 ft^3/jug, we need 147 ft^3 for 330 jugs and … read more »

Response:

Question about building your own solar water heater. solar power water heater cost

Question:

…I live in East Texas and have tons of solar power available…

Indeed. NREL says the average Jan temp in Midland is 42.5 F, with a 56.5 average daily max, and 1040 Btu/ft^2-day falls on a horizontal surface, and 1490 Btu falls on a south wall… I want to build a solar water heater from scratch.

Good… :-) I want to preheat my water then run it through the electric water heater.

That instantly dooms you to low-performance.solar power water heater cost  The water heater doesn’t hold much, and the stored hot water cools off over time, and it isn’t replaced by warmer water unless you take a shower some sunny day, and this sort of system doesn’t work well at night or on a cloudy day. I have a plan in my head… using cpvc water pipe painted black.

More doom. The pipe has little sun-gathering surface, and with no glazing, it only makes high temp water in summertime. It cools off or freezes at night and takes some time to wake up in the morning… Very lame. Why not build a serious, less-wimpy, Texas-sized heater, an interesting yard sculpture aimed at meeting 100% of your needs, even in wintertime?solar power water heater cost  You might start with a 12×12x4′ deep plywood box on (or partially in) the ground. This would also serve as the foundation. Insulate the outside with 3″ of Styrofoam (R15) with latex paint on the outside, and line it with a $120 20×20′ folded piece of EPDM rubber roofing material. A float valve keeps it filled with C = 12×12x4×64 = 36864 pounds (4608 gallons) of water, with a layer of UV polyethylene greenhouse film on top and another layer over that, with spacers between them. Make a 12′x12′x3″ thick Styrofoam cover, reflective underneath, and hinged along the north edge, with some counterweights, and add 16′ isoceles A-frames on the east and west sides to support a pulley to lift the cover with a small motor on sunny days.solar power water heater cost

Response:

Just curious, has this design been built before?solar power water heater cost  I live in East Texas and have tons of solar power available… Indeed. NREL says the average Jan temp in Midland is 42.5 F, with a 56.5 average daily max, and 1040 Btu/ft^2-day falls on a horizontal surface, and 1490 Btu falls on a south wall… I want to build a solar water heater from scratch. Good… :-) I want to preheat my water then run it through the electric water heater. That instantly dooms you to low-performance. The water heater doesn’t hold much, and the stored hot water cools off over time, and it isn’t replaced by warmer water unless you take a shower some sunny day, and this sort of system doesn’t work well at night or on a cloudy day. I have a plan in my head… using cpvc water pipe painted black. More doom. The pipe has little sun-gathering surface, and with no glazing, it only makes high temp water in summertime. It cools off or freezes at night and takes some time to wake up in the morning… Very lame. Why not build a serious, less-wimpy, Texas-sized heater, an interesting yard sculpture aimed at meeting 100% of your needs, even in wintertime? You might start with a 12×12x4′ deep plywood box on (or partially in) the ground. This would also serve as the foundation. Insulate the outside with 3″ of Styrofoam (R15) with latex paint on the outside, and line it with a $120 20×20′ folded piece of EPDM rubber roofing material.solar power water heater cost

Response:

solar power water heater cost  I saved a copy of this . . . it’ll come in handy, I’m sure, one of these fine days . . . Thanks, –Tock – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …I live in East Texas and have tons of solar power available… Indeed. NREL says the average Jan temp in Midland is 42.5 F, with a 56.5 average daily max, and 1040 Btu/ft^2-day falls on a horizontal surface, and 1490 Btu falls on a south wall… I want to build a solar water heater from scratch. Good… solar power water heater cost  I want to preheat my water then run it through the electric water heater. That instantly dooms you to low-performance. The water heater doesn’t hold much, and the stored hot water cools off over time, and it isn’t replaced by warmer water unless you take a shower some sunny day, and this sort of system doesn’t work well at night or on a cloudy day. I have a plan in my head… using cpvc water pipe painted black. More doom. The pipe has little sun-gathering surface, and with no glazing, it only makes high temp water in summertime. It cools off or freezes at night and takes some time to wake up in the morning… Very lame. Why not build a serious, less-wimpy, Texas-sized heater, an interesting yard sculpture aimed at meeting 100% of your needs, even in wintertime? You might start with a 12×12x4′ deep plywood box on (or partially in) the ground. This would also serve as the foundation. Insulate the outside with 3″ of Styrofoam (R15) with latex paint on the outside, and line it with a $120 20×20′ folded piece of EPDM rubber roofing material. A float valve keeps it filled with C = 12×12x4×64 = 36864 pounds (4608 gallons) of water, with a layer of UV polyethylene greenhouse film on top and another layer over that, with spacers between them. Make a 12′x12′x3″ thick Styrofoam cover, reflective underneath, and hinged along the north edge, with some counterweights, and add 16′ isoceles A-frames on the east and west sides to support a pulley to lift the cover with a small motor on sunny days. solar power water heater cost  I want to preheat my water then run it through the electric water heater.

That instantly dooms you to low-performance. The water heater doesn’t hold much, and the stored hot water cools off over time, and it isn’t replaced by warmer water unless you take a shower some sunny day, and this sort of system doesn’t work well at night or on a cloudy day. I have a plan in my head… using cpvc water pipe painted black.

More doom. The pipe has little sun-gathering surface, and with no glazing, it only makes high temp water in summertime. It cools off or freezes at night and takes some time to wake up in the morning… Very lame. Why not build a serious, less-wimpy, Texas-sized heater, an interesting yard sculpture aimed at meeting 100% of your needs, even in wintertime? You might start with a 12×12x4′ deep plywood box on (or partially in) the ground. This would also serve as the foundation. Insulate the outside with 3″ of Styrofoam (R15) with latex paint on the outside, and line it with a $120 20×20′ folded piece of EPDM rubber roofing material. A float valve keeps it filled with C = 12×12x4×64 = 36864 pounds (4608 gallons) of water, with a layer of UV polyethylene greenhouse film on top and another layer over that, with spacers between them. Make a 12′x12′x3″ thick Styrofoam cover, reflective underneath, and hinged along the north edge, with some counterweights, and add 16′ isoceles A-frames on the east and west sides to support a pulley to lift the cover with a small motor on sunny days. solar power water heater cost I live in East Texas and have tons of solar power available… Indeed. NREL says the average Jan temp in Midland is 42.5 F, with a 56.5 average daily max, and 1040 Btu/ft^2-day falls on a horizontal surface, and 1490 Btu falls on a south wall… I want to build a solar water heater from scratch. Good… :-) I want to preheat my water then run it through the electric water heater. That instantly dooms you to low-performance. The water heater doesn’t hold much, and the stored hot water cools off over time, and it isn’t replaced by warmer water unless you take a shower some sunny day, and this sort of system doesn’t work well at night or on a cloudy day. I have a plan in my head… using cpvc water pipe painted black. More doom. The pipe has little sun-gathering surface, and with no glazing, it only makes high temp water in summertime. It cools off or freezes at night and takes some time to wake up in the morning… Very lame. Why not build a serious, less-wimpy, Texas-sized heater, an interesting yard sculpture aimed at meeting 100% of your needs, even in wintertime? You might start with a 12×12x4′ deep plywood box on (or partially in) the ground. This would also serve as the foundation. Insulate the outside with 3″ of Styrofoam (R15) with latex paint on the outside, and line it with a $120 20×20′ folded piece of EPDM rubber roofing material. A float valve keeps it filled with C = 12×12x4×64 = 36864 pounds (4608 gallons) of water, with a layer of UV polyethylene greenhouse film on top and another layer over that, with spacers between them. Make a 12′x12′x3″ thick Styrofoam cover, reflective underneath, and hinged along the north edge,solar power water heater cost  with some counterweights, and add 16′ isoceles A-frames on the east and west sides to support a pulley to lift the cover with a small motor on sunny days.solar power water heater cost

Response:

Just curious, has this design been built before? solar power water heater cost I live in East Texas and have tons of solar power available… Indeed. NREL says the average Jan temp in Midland is 42.5 F, with a 56.5 average daily max, and 1040 Btu/ft^2-day falls on a horizontal surface, and 1490 Btu falls on a south wall… I want to build a solar water heater from scratch. Good… :-) I want to preheat my water then run it through the electric water heater. That instantly dooms you to low-performance. The water heater doesn’t hold much, and the stored hot water cools off over time, and it isn’t replaced by warmer water unless you take a shower some sunny day, and this sort of system doesn’t work well at night or on a cloudy day. I have a plan in my head… using cpvc water pipe painted black. More doom. The pipe has little sun-gathering surface, and with no glazing, it only makes high temp water in summertime. It cools off or freezes at night and takes some time to wake up in the morning… Very lame. Why not build a serious, less-wimpy, Texas-sized heater, an interesting yard sculpture aimed at meeting 100% of your needs, even in wintertime? You might start with a 12×12x4′ deep plywood box on (or partially in) the ground. This would also serve as the foundation. Insulate the outside with 3″ of Styrofoam (R15) with latex paint on the outside, and line it with a $120 20×20′ folded piece of EPDM rubber roofing material. A float valve keeps it filled with C = 12×12x4×64 = 36864 pounds (4608 gallons) of water, with a layer of UV polyethylene greenhouse film on top and another layer over that, with spacers between them. Make a 12′x12′x3″ thick Styrofoam cover, reflective underneath, and hinged along the north edge, with some counterweights, and add 16′ isoceles A-frames on the east and west sides to support a pulley to lift the cover with a small motor on sunny days. Wsolar power water heater cost   and it would be easier to wind it around the inside of the box, and I have an old trailer house that is abandoned that is plumbed with 1/2″ copper.  I will salvage the copper from it and make my solar water heater even cheaper.  I love news groups!  I have all the resources on hand but just didnt think about it until it was stuck in my face. Thanks Kenny

Response:

Ok I have another question.  I live in East Texas and have tons of solar power available,  I want to build a solar water heater from scratch.solar power water heater cost   I want to preheat my water then run it through the electric water heater.  I have a plan in my head but it requires using cpvc water pipe painted black.  I am worried that the paint will degrade the pipe. What do yall think? Or do you have a better suggestion? solar power water heater cost

Response:

Cpvc may be a bad choice in the summer the temperature will get too hot. I am not sure if the Black poly type tubing can withstand the temperatures either.solar power water heater cost  What ever you use make sure it can handle in excess of 220

Inexpensive Solar Water Heater basic solar power water heater

Question:

I want to build a solar hot water heater.basic solar power water heater
I have seen some very = expensive systems sold commercially, but we need something much cheaper = (we are a foundation running a children=B9s camp in Poland). I have seen lots of designs for inexpensive units, but they all seem to = have been done by people who have not actually built or tested such a = unit, but rather have just dreamed one up. = Some of the designs I have seen come with no information about why = various choices were made.basic solar power water heater
I would like to start a discussion on this = subject, and would hope that someone with experience as well as some = theoreticians would join the discussion. I want to consider two systems. One for household hot water, and the = other for heating a small pool or hot tub. = I want to eliminate a two fluid system because it would be too = complicated and expensive. I want to solve the freezing problem by = putting the collector in a glass porch which is attached to the house, = or perhaps just under the roof behind a purpose built skylight rather = than on the roof, or in the case of the hot tub, for summer use only. We = are at 54 degrees north, in the coldest part of Poland. Although we have electricity on the site, we cannot rely on it. I have two ideas for circulating the water.  = One is to pump it with a low voltage volt pump which is run directly off = a solar cell array. No batteries involved. It will only pump during the = day, but that=B9s ok since the water will be heated only when the sun is = out anyway. Another possibility, suggested by a badly written book on the subject, = is to place the collector below the storage, and let convection move the = hot water up to the storage tank or hot tub. Some questions.basic solar power water heater
Would this latter system really work in practice? Is there anyone out = there with experience with such a system? If so what diameter pipes were = used? What sort of collector? What distance between the collector and = the storage? Where was this done? What temperatures were achieved, and = at what times of year? With the former system, does anyone know of any pumps that will work = this way, driven only by sun power without intervening batteries? Do you = know of such a pump that could be purchased in Europe, or better do you = know of anyone who would donate one to us? What is the best collector to use?  We have lots of space, but not lots = of money. Covering the unit with an expensive insulating glass would = certainly give higher temperatures and faster heating, but would the = price difference be worth it?basic solar power water heater
Or without a glass cover, would the = temperature be too low to be useable? (I am advised that here, in = Holland, where I live, government regulations require a minimum = temperature in the hot water tank of 60 degrees C. Otherwise bacteria = can grow, creating health problems.) = Would plastic sheeting at less than $1. per sq meter be a better deal = than double insulated glass at $150. or more per square meter, or  would = it not work? What about insulating bubble plastic used by some green = houses, a kind of bubble wrap which givers modest insulation at a very = low price? Would plane single glass be best? What kind of collector should we have? What kind and diameter of pipe is = best?basic solar power water heater
Cheap black plastic hose seems like a good solution, but such = plastics often disintegrate rapidly at high temperatures. Is there = anyone out there with experience in this, or who has a knowledge of = plastics and what to look for and what to avoid? How about just letting the water spill over a trough and flow down over = black plastic sheeting place under glass.? Anyway these are some of the questions I have as I start this quest. = Perhaps there is a FAQ that I don=B9t know about. If so and the answers = are there, please direct me to it. Likewise if there is a good book on = the subject, with answers to these sort of questions please direct me = too it. In any case I would like to hear from people who have had experience in = this or are in a position to do some experimenting and calculating for = us. You can answer to this news group, or write me directly, basic solar power water heater

Response:

[a great many questions] If you haven’t visited the Website of CREST (the Center for Renewable Energy Science and Technology — the educational arm of the Solar Industries Association of America), you should.basic solar power water heater
You will find a lot of reference materials and additional Web pointers there:        http://solstice.crest.org Although in general solar water heating is one of the most cost-effective forms of solar energy, you need to take a few cautions to heart in northern Europe: o  Your latitude is VERY high — solar hot water is cost-effective in the southern 2/3 of the U.S., but it’s a little iffy in the northern states.   And our northern states have latitudes comparable to southern and central France!  (Although it gets a lot colder here.)  Even though your energy costs are higher,basic solar power water heater
the loss of incident solar energy due to the higher latitude may make solar hot water impractical.  That’s something you’ll need to check carefully. o  There ARE passive-circulation designs available, and you may find more information about them at the Solstice site.  There are also anti-freezing designs, since some people try to install them in the midwest where the temperatures can reach -18 C many days during the winter, and occasionally much worse than that. o  The best options are generally solar-assisted hot water — meaning you have both a conventional heat source and solar heating — the conventional source (gas or electric) kicks in to keep the temperature up when the solar can’t.  If you have a good collector and a well-insulated water tank, the conventional power will be used rarely — if you have a poor collector or a lot of losses in the tank, the solar part of the system will just be a “helper”. You probably don’t want to put the collector inside a glass patio or skylight — the extra layer of glass will further reduce the amount of energy arriving at the collector. I know this sounds pessimistic, but what it means is that in northern climates you’ll probably have to use a fairly sophisticated cold-climate collector design. basic solar power water heater

Response:

I want to build a solar hot water heater. I have seen some very = expensive systems sold commercially, but we need something much cheaper = (we are a foundation running a children=B9s camp in Poland).basic solar power water heater
I have seen lots of designs for inexpensive units, but they all seem to = have been done by people who have not actually built or tested such a = unit, but rather have just dreamed one up. =

Three issues to be solved before you start. 1.      What are you going to do with the water once it is heated. Unless it is just for washing clothes then it is best to go for the indirect coil from the outset. 2.      If you have access to good electricity – use a pump otherwise you have a lot more design problems. 3.      How sunny is it and how much water do you want. The problem you mentioned later about minimum temps goes away completely with an indirect system, also you can put an antifreeze into the indirect fluids without any fear of contamination or a freeze up.basic solar power water heater
Indirect means that you use the hot water from the solar system to heat pure water in a conventional hot water system. This requires a hot water tank with a indirect coil in it – but this is not a solar power thing, these water tanks are available for use with a back boiler stove for instance (wet back).basic solar power water heater
The pump is good since you don’t get into the problems of pipe bore size and siting that are required for a convection system, which although elegent and simple – cab be a bitch to get started from scratch.  Using a small pump, like something designed for a domestic central heating system gets around a multitude of problems. More on that in a minute. Lastly the solar collectors, most important. You can pay an absolute fortune for these and the best are very very good indeed. However you can get within 90% of their efficiency for about 5% of the price. Method : Go find yourself some single panel, slim line radiators secondhand. Dont worry about the paint job, you wont be using it. All they have to be is intact and able to hold 4 psi above atmospheic pressure (not a lot).  Single panel is important, a lot of newer units are doubles and they are not really much good unless you have two suns !! Northern hemisphere – work on 1 square metre of panel per person,basic solar power water heater
this won’t solve all your problems in the winter but will avoid some boil overs in the summer. If you want to go for 2 sm per person that’s fine but you may have to shade them on really sunny days.  The average radiator is 2m x 1 (large) and 1m x 1 small.  These things come with four core plugs, one in each corner – you will have to remove them all for digital flow. Remove all the white paint that looks so good in the lounge and paint them with a thin layer of ,matt black. Thin is good, we dont want insulation. Plumb them all together in parallel using copper or plastic as you wish, the plastic pipe is cheaper, easier to work with and good for 275C which the water isn’t. Pass the output through the coil in the tank and back to a small insulated header tank above everything. The pump goes downstream of the header tank and upstream of the rads and is controlled by a thermostat in close to the center of the panels (rads). One of the units used for a car radiator fan is ideal and just about the correct temperature. Mount the panels facing south at an angle that looks correct for the sun as you see it in spring (about now) and turn it on. Add antifreeze to the header tank as required in winter. Shade the panels if the water gets too hot in simmer and play around with the thermostat to get a reasonable water temperature without running the pump too often. As a finesse mount the rads in a marine (waterproof) plywood box, laying backed with loft insulation with a perspex or glass front.basic solar power water heater
This stops weather and stuff and gives about another 5%. The most expensive thing is the coil hot water tank, followed by the pump. If you look around you will get the rads for virtually nothing – noone wants them. Pipes and joints are a matter of ingenuity and the pump can be as expensive as you wish, but it only needs to be a little one – don’t go mad. We are trying to move water around not recreate the deluge…… This has been a bit quick and I am sure someone will elaborate and have better ideas, but I have built two of these now and they work just fine thank you….. email me if you have any problems or want some more detail ….

Response:

Straw Bale Home for sale solar water heater home

Question:

I am going to  be selling my straw bale home in solar water heater home the hills surrounding Prescott, solar water heater home AZ. The home is situated on approximately 5.36 acres, is off grid, has both photovoltaics and wind generators. We have been on the Solar Home tour for solar water heater home the last 2 years, and have had approximately 250 visitors to learn the warmth of straw bale and the energy savings with alternate power. Cost $225,000. Serious lookers only.

Response:

Path: news.goodnet.com!news Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable Organization: GoodNet Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: prc024.bslnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon — TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage Xref: news.goodnet.com alt.energy.renewable:4002623

Bale-E-Wyck The Giermann Project Floor Plan Designed by us. Engineered & Drawn up by    Steve Kemble, Sustainable Support Systems, PO Box 318, Bisbee, AZ. 85603                                 Ph 520-432-4292 Building Contractor:            Joe Mullen, 2531 Copper Basin, Prescott, AZ 85303. Ph 520-778-0901 Solar Power by                  EV Products, 2655 N. Hwy 89, Chino Valley, AZ 86323, Ph 520-636 2201         Bale-E-Wyck is an energy efficient, passive solar heated, solar hot water and solar electric straw bale home utilizing post & beam construction. It consists of 270 3 wire bales of straw weighing approximately 80# each. Bale dimensions are 44″ long, 22″ wide and 18″ high. They are layed flat and provide a wall insulation of between R40-R50. It’s outside dimensions are 54 X 36 which gives 1944 sq ft. It’s 24 inch thick walls give the inside floor space of 1600 sq ft.         Bale-E-Wyck is cocked 15 degrees east of south. Posts are  6″ X 6″ treated lumber.Beams – 6″ X 10″ Douglas fir. The width of the walls necessitates 24″ footers.solar water heater home  Posts are on Simpson connecters centered on 24″ piers. Beams set in Simpson Connectors on top of posts. Sway Braces 1/4″ X 2″ steel. Piers & footers with rerod. Simpson connectors tied with re rod to foundation. Monolithic pour of concrete piers, footers and 4″ floor. 12 ” long 3/8″ rerod on perimeter for bales. Bales impaled on rerods. Every 2 layers of bales rerodded to previous layers. solar water heater home Bales notched around posts & beams. First row of bales on roofing felt between concrete & bale.         Windows Low E, double pane, argon filled aluminum clad wood except on north, which has no low E. Windows set up for ventilation. North side are casement that open to the west to act as air scoops. East side open to the south and catch southerly breezes. Big room living area has awning windows that can remain open in rain.   solar water heater home      North rooms are unheated, carpeted. South rooms passive solar with LP gas heater backup. South room red tile floor to absorb heat. Overhang on south blocks summer sun and allows winter sun in. Approx 1600 sq ft. 900 in living area, 700 in north side. South windows approx 86 sq ft. On winter nights with temps in the teens inside temp stays in 60’s. Warms to mid 70’s in day. All joints caulked. R38 attic insulation blown in recycled newsprint. Trusses are 5/12 outside dimensions 3/12 inside. 2 X 6. Center wall is load bearing. Kitchen has 8′ ceiling. 1″ stucco on outside. Sealed with silicon sealer and painted with elastomeric paint. Inside walls sheetrock on 2 X 2 furring strips. Chicken wire stucco support, held on by barbed hair pins forced into bale and allowing to mushroom out. Doors – Metal with styrofoam fill. Electric: panel. 812 watts at 24 volts.  16 6 volt 220 AH batteries wired to give 24 volts 880 AH.  21.12 KW. Heliotrope CC60 Charge Controller. solar water heater home Vanner 3600 watt inverter. Can deliver 4800 watts for 30 min. Well 1/2 horse 220 V ac pump. Used as power dump when battery voltage is greater than 27.5 volts. Pressure tank 24 V dc pump.         Fluorescent lighting – mixed.  Ceiling Fans – installed, not used. 1950’s vintage Speed Queen wringer washer. Kitchen Aid Refrigerator. 650 KWHR/year. Auto Defrost controlled by on/off switch. Switched on 2 days/week. Magic Chef range, glow bar ignition for oven, electric ignition  on burners. Switched off with wall switch. On only when needed. No Phantom load. IBM Aptiva 486DX2 computer with HP Desk Jet Printer and HP Scanner. solar water heater home Heritage Park Zoo newsletter published here. solar water heater home  DSS Satellite antenna rated at 25 watts. solar water heater home        Copper Cricket water heater with 52 gallon tank. 150-160 deg. AquaStar 80LS LP solar as backup. 40 gallon pressure tank provides water pressure to house. 2500 gallon outdoor water storage Tank. 1.5 GPM Shower heads & Sinks. 1.5 Gal Flush toilets. Septic Gene & Carol Giermann HC 30 Box 933D Prescott, AZ 86301 (520)445-6772 Visitors Welcome. Call for directions and ensure we are home. We are selling our home now. Medical needs necessitate a move closer to a hospital. Asking price is $225,000

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Siemen panel vs solar shingles solar power water heater koh samui

Question:

Warren ,   What about using wind power in town ?solar power water heater koh samui  What hurles must I jump in order to use it in town ? better than solar panels ?solar power water heater koh samui

Response:

You will have 3 problems – the noise of a wind generator, the system cost, especially on one large enough to generate any significant power, and zoning and height laws.   And that assumes you have enough wind – most people tend to overestimate the amount of wind they have.solar power water heater koh samui

Response:

I just pickup a magazine on solar shingles. The article goes on to say any roofer with some electrical background can install it. The typical price is $7000.00 for a house.solar power water heater koh samui  Is this cheaper than using siemen solar panels ?

Apples and Oranges. solar power water heater koh samui   You do not provide dimension information nor a Siemen’s PV model number for any comparison to be made, nor the climate it is to be installed in.   But, from what I have read, I think I remember that the shingles were less effiecent than regular PVs…  I could be mistaken as it has been a while since I read that, but that is the impression I have.  Shingles would get VERY hot, I think it would have to be less effiencent at such a temp, as PVs are more effiecent at colder temps and less so at hotter temps.solar power water heater koh samui    There are however PV’s manufacturered in 4′x8′ sheets which would replace both roofing plywood and shingles, which should give as good as any other PVs, and better than shingles…  esp on northerly installations.  You would not find me doing any roof installs in northern climes…  my system is totally pole mounted due to my experiences with roof mounts in northern climes solar power water heater koh samui  BulkMailers and Email address compilers may purchase this email address for $25000.00 for use in their products. Anyone selling this email address or utilizing this email address for any commercial usage without a license from ShadowMAC is in violation of private property rights and violators WILL be be invoiced for usage.solar power water heater koh samui  Selling what you do not own is THEFT of private property!!!

Response:

I just pickup a magazine on solar shingles. The article goes on to say any roofer with some electrical background can install it. The typical price is $7000.00 for a house.solar power water heater koh samui  Is this cheaper than using siemen solar panels ?

Response:

Warren ,  What about using wind power in town ? What hurles must I jump in order to use it in town ? better than solar panels ? Cost ?

Best is Hydropower, followed by solar power, followed by wind.solar power water heater koh samui  Hydro is 24 hours a day, solar is 12 hours a day and wind? is it even every day? Solar for in town is the best. As for cost. cost is best handled by changing your lifestyle first. REDUCE your dependence. For example a $17 light bulb (fluorescent) screw in base to replace that 60 watt monster you have in the lamp will only use 13 watts or so. A solar panel only puts out so much. You have to replace your bulbs first anyway.solar power water heater koh samui  so start buying energy efficient lighting. Put in a propane stove and water heater or a solar water heat system. You can not heat water with solar electric panels unless you have TOO much money.  solar power water heater koh samui

Response:

I check with the solar shingle rep. from calif. . I will be receiving material in the mail. I contacted my power company for information on how their doing with y2k. Their web page give a typical politician answer. They hope to be ready by next year , but are having problems with third party. Still hoping to hear from a live person ( left voice mail message) at the power company.solar power water heater koh samui  How do you go about getting off their power grid either part time or full time ? solar power water heater koh samui

Response:

An article at http://www.taunton.com/fh/features/materials/12solarroof.htm says it is more like $40,000..solar power water heater koh samui I just pickup a magazine on solar shingles. The article goes on to say any roofer with some electrical background can install it. The typical price is $7000.00 for a house. Is this cheaper than using siemen solar panels ?

Response:

A little calculation 1/2 solar power water heater cost

Question:

CLarge amounts of money were thrown at alternative energy R&D,solar power water heater cost  particularly  during and just after the Arab oil crisis.  The results produced were not  sufficiently encouraging for governments and industry to sustain those  levels of funding. Wrong,solar power water heater cost  Wind power is finding increasing acceptance with governments and industry around the world, especially in Europe, and is about to take off again in the U.S. – all because of the experiments funded during the period mentioned. Solar PV, similarly, has found and is finding acceptance in many of the parts of the country and the world, and will see increasing use with new 30% efficient cells. There are some 10,000 solar PV installations in the western U.S.  Business is brisk enough in Northern California that independent contractors have formed an organization to combat the utilities trying to muscle in on their territory. CThe price of nuclear electricity includes a component to pay for waste  disposal.  This should, therefore, not be a tax burden.  The really large  costs for waste management in the U.S. are associated with the cleanup  and decommissioning of the nuclear weapons complex.  This is the  price to be paid for winning the cold war and keeping the western world  free for 45 years and incidentally generating a great deal of economic  activity in the U.S. I am grateful to the U.S. for taking on this  responsibility. Oh sure, a war we started and that has left us 4.5 trillion in debt.solar power water heater cost

Response:

CS       As for a ten year time frame, 10% is hardly a CS  reasonable time frame.  From the top of my head and working CS  from my final example of Wash DC, the area has about 2.5M CS  people or 1% of the population and requires one quarter of CS  the state of Ohio (perhaps a worthy use to which to put CS  it.)  That puts 10% at 2.5 Ohios of solar farms.  That is CS  quite a construction project. CS  Matt, Please state here more precisely the numbers you use CS  to tell us that 1/4 the state of Ohio would be required.  I CS  once estimated that the entire U.S.  electrical supply would CS  require a circle 93 miles in diameter placed in Southern CS  Nevada….( some what more rational…  Although still a CS  large project )   So I just want to know the CS  assumptions/basic numbers that you’re working with.      Apparently part of what I wrote did not get through.solar power water heater cost  I will certainly agree with your calculation if the sun shines 24 hours a day and there are no inefficiencies and no energy distribution or storages losses.  In absense of repeating the entire post to include what you appear to have not recieved I would presume you simply took the gigawatt-hours of the US and calculated.  If you got the earliest part of my post you will find that is my starting point and it works out that every home can have its own power source were it not for the sun going down and the seasons and all the rest.      I have seen a calculation similar to yours with some journal reference but when I worked that one through it was the “ideal” case.      I can not e-mail the entire article via the fido gateway so it is all or nothing in public.solar power water heater cost  If you request a second time I will do so and play a trick so you will at worst miss a different part. CS       And then political problem, remembering nothing grows CS  under a solar farm, there is another entire wing of the CS  back to nature movement that will hold up the project in CS  court more than ten years out of concern for some stupid CS  owl or whatever they can discover as an excuse. CS  My numbers were based on a REAL LIFE PV plant, the 1MW CS  plant which used to exist on Carizzo Plain here in C.A. CS  I’ve seen this plant, and grass sufficient for grazing DID CS  grow beneath ( indeed one of the largest maintainance tasks CS  ( after washing ) was mowing this grass! ).  Also, the best CS  solar sites in the country are places where most people CS  would not consider living, farming, raising cattle, or just CS  about anything else.  ( except perhaps testing nuclear CS  weapons…)      I believe you are talking about a mirror site although I am not familiar with the reference.      I would guess (real guess that it is a mirror site) you are talking about the sun tracking which lets through a lot of light in the tracking.  I had no intention of investigating the insolation requirements of whatever might grow beneath.  I can without research point out that all light that grows plants is wasted as power.  In that regard I suggest that any light being wasted growing something is a requirement for a multiple of the waste increasing the size of the solar field.      You will note in my original I ignored the tracking requirement for optimization which changes by season and by time of day.  That rather complex tracking requirement is something that would always increase the size required by inefficiency of imperfect coverage but to make an estimate of it I would have had to “invent” a mechanical coverage number. solar power water heater cost

Response:

It’s technically possible, but the economics of such a choice is truly horrid. Would the economics improve if we throw the same amount of money into solar R&D (and other sustainable power sources) as we have done for nuclear power? We have spent billions of dollars for nuclear, and we still have to spent billions in order to manage closed cycles and waste disposal. Nuclear didn’t pay back this money, we just pay higher taxes :solar power water heater cost

Large amounts of money were thrown at alternative energy R&D, particularly during and just after the Arab oil crisis.  The results produced were not sufficiently encouraging for governments and industry to sustain those levels of funding. The price of nuclear electricity includes a component to pay for waste disposal.solar power water heater cost   This should, therefore, not be a tax burden.  The really large costs for waste management in the U.S. are associated with the cleanup and decommissioning of the nuclear weapons complex.  This is the price to be paid for winning the cold war and keeping the western world free for 45 years and incidentally generating a great deal of economic activity in the U.S.solar power water heater cost  I am grateful to the U.S. for taking on this responsibility. Don Cameron

Response:

It’s technically possible, but the economics of such a choice is truly horrid.

Would the economics improve if we throw the same amount of money into solar R&D (and other sustainable power sources) as we have done for nuclear power? We have spent billions of dollars for nuclear, and we still have to spent billions in order to manage closed cycles and waste disposal. Nuclear didn’t pay back this money, we just pay higher taxes solar power water heater cost

Response:

It’s technically possible, but the economics of such a choice is truly horrid. Would the economics improve if we throw the same amount of money into solar R&D (and other sustainable power sources) as we have done for nuclear power? We have spent billions of dollars for nuclear, and we still have to spent billions in order to manage closed cycles and waste disposal. Nuclear didn’t pay back this money, solar power water heater cost

Emil, I’ll give you stock answer number three. The naive faith people place in directed R&D is truly amazing. There’s no reason to believe that cubic miles of money poured into solar research will bring efficiencies up to the level of conventional sources, or bring the costs down to the level of conventional sources. Solar energy is diffuse, irregular, and can’t be demand modulated.solar power water heater cost  That’s a fact, and no amount of R&D money will change it. In the case of nuclear, the sunk costs are primarily from the weapons program. If you can show that a similar investment will produce a solar bomb that’s as effective militarily as nuclear bombs, you could justify spending the same money.solar power water heater cost  As to the waste issue, we both know that’s a political issue, the technical issues are solved problems. solar power water heater cost.   Think about it, people pay between $.05 and $.10 a Kw.hr. Thus at 12KW that would be between $420 – $840 a month for electric power.   Looking at my last electric bill, I use 6Kw.hr a day or about .25Kw of continuous power.  This is 1/48th the figure you start with.  A factor of 48 can make a big difference the feasibilty of something. I believe that a large majority of the readers of this group would agree that solar power can not with present technology provide anything close to 100% of the world’s electric power needs.    Thus attacking this premise is simply sticking pins in a very weak straw man.   The real question is can solar power provide a signficant amount of our electric power (like 10%) in a reasonably near term time frame (like 10 years).   I think this is certainly possible and I would welcome arguments from you or others if you believe that this is not possible.solar power water heater cost

I think you should also add in the Peltier effect.  It shouldn’t be very difficult to use both the available light and heat at the same time. The extra engery could be stored as heat in a heat reservoir underground and then retrieved directly for the heating system (circulating fluid), hot water; and indirectly (Peltier effect) for electric. This would save on batteries or grid.solar power water heater cost

Response:

The standard for a household is 100 amp service up from 50 amp service of 40 years ago.  The actual household need is more like 75 amps but the given that there will be no other impact means to use 100 amp service.  100 amps * 120 volts = 12,000 watts.  So at 750 w/sq yd that is 16 square yards at 100% conversion efficiency.  That is a square 4 yards on a side or 12 feet on a side.  Not too bad for a start, is it?

This is a very bad starting point for your argument that solar power will require unreasonable areas to provide the energy needs for a home. The reason is simple, when a home is wired with 100AMP service this respresents an absolute MAXIMUM amount of power that can enter the building.  (That is breakers will insure that it is never greater than that).   Think about it, people pay between $.05 and $.10 a Kw.hr. Thus at 12KW that would be between $420 – $840 a month for electric power.   Looking at my last electric bill, I use 6Kw.hr a day or about .25Kw of continuous power.solar power water heater cost   This is 1/48th the figure you start with.  A factor of 48 can make a big difference the feasibilty of something. I believe that a large majority of the readers of this group would agree that solar power can not with present technology provide anything close to 100% of the world’s electric power needs.    Thus attacking this premise is simply sticking pins in a very weak straw man.   The real question is can solar power provide a signficant amount of our electric power (like 10%) in a reasonably near term time frame (like 10 years).   I think this is certainly possible and I would welcome arguments from you or others if you believe that this is not possible. solar power water heater cost, that is minimize, power consumption it would have required a major engineering exercise on my part and certainly one which I am not prepared to accomplish.

What?  You leap from replacing a few incandecent bulbs with CF bulbs and using batteries to flatten the peaks to the ‘entire country completely converting all electricity using equipment’? I don’t know what your smoking, but I’d like to find some…     If you are interested in providingi that primary number with your rational for deriving it then it is a simple matter correct the final number.  When can I expect it?

When hell freezes over, since it was not possible to determine what ‘number’ you were talking about!  IF you meant ‘what is the quantity of electric power produced in the USA in one year’ then go look in the September 1990 Scientific American for a good start. EMS  I’ll go back to 20 Amps if you give me a PV system EMS  INCLUDING BATTERY STORAGE on my home.     If you recall what I wrote you will remember that I pointed out conversion and storage efficiencies precluded usage on a house with a large yard all as a solar farm.

What you wrote is of no importance since it was patently wrong. Your conversion efficiencies were wrong.  Your storage efficiencies were wrong.  Your conclusions were wrong.  Conversion runs about 90-95% efficient.  Batteries/storage varies a bit, call it 80-95% depending on kind of storage.  There are many thousands of ‘existance proof’ homes running on PV with only a small fraction of their roof or yard covered by PV.     As to your 20 amp service, that means you do not have an electric water heater or an air conditioner.  The level load for

The water heater is gas (stupid to do otherwise!) but the AC is a plain old electrical unit. an A/C unit is 5000-7000 watts.  You would need several things.

Well, that is the load for ONE SIZE of AC.  You seem to live in a one-size-fits-all world…  My AC at home is about 1800 watts. (And the AC here at work is a couple of 10 ton Lieberts and a 5 ton on the roof … and the chillers and water tower for the ‘Big Iron’…) A DC powered A/C unit and a means of preventing the water heater

Why?  An inverter at heavy load has about a 95% conversion efficiency. An AC AC is just finesolar power water heater cost

Given that my AC right now is on a 15 amp breaker, I don’t see any reason for it to suddenly grow to 50 amps …   OH, and again in the ‘brain dead in the analytical skills department’ department:  WHY, on Gods earth, do you want to run an electrical water heater from PV electricity when it would be about an order of magnitude or two more efficient and effective to just use SOLAR THERMAL to make hot water?   EMS You can not negate turn on transients by fiat.  You can not EMS say dryers will not draw a major resistive load and the EMS motor transient while starting.  Things just don’t work that EMS way. EMS  You CAN very easily ‘negate’ transients if you have a nice EMS  large inverter and battery pack that can handle the EMS  transients… EMS  All you need the PV for is the average power consumption. EMS  The transients are handled by the storage and inverter EMS  components.solar power water heater cost     I will leave it to you to provide that average requirement. When you do we have a simple multiple to the bottom.

At work, we run a supercomputer center on a UPS.  (Uninterruptable Power Supply).  It is rated for 200 kVA.  The battery bank is about 1 foot wide, 6 feet tall, and 30 feet long.  It would easily fit in my garage at home…  (Though it is far too expensive for home use!).   This is an ‘existance proof’ that ANY transient load you could possibly have in a home can be met by a battery/inverter system. In a more typical and realistic (financially) scenario, you would have an inverter that was sized for about 4 kW or so and could spike up to about 12 kW for transients.solar power water heater cost  Get the brochures for Trace inverters for more details. As for average home power consumption:  Get your power bill.  Look at it.  Read the numbers for kW-hr.  That is your number.  Mine is different from yours.  Interpolate. You should be about 1000 kW-hrs/month +/- 750 kW-hrs.  If you live a ’sybaritic’ lifestyle and have a cavernous home that you refridgerate to sub-zero in Georgia in July and don’t think insulation is important, you may be higher than that.  1000/30= 33 1/3 kW-hrs/day.  Call it 34. That would be 1.4166 kW-hrs/hr, or at 240 Vac, 6 amps continuous around the clock.  At a dime a kW-hr, this would run you a bit over $100/month.  If you can spend an order of magnitude more than this on power each month (60 amps continuous) then you are far richer than anyone *I* know … I’d estimate that your power consumption numbers are off by an order of magnitude (at least) on the high side.  Coupled with your vastly wrong efficiencies on storage and inverters, you reach bogus conclusions.  No suprise.solar power water heater cost     You realize I do not understand people who spend very, very long messages making a point like this when they need only provide a single number and make a single multiplication.  You do not compute figuratively and literally.

*I* realize that you do not understand a great many things…     Why not lead off with your estimate of the average and the calculation and get on with it?  Why all this verbal rufage? solar power water heater cost

Because you made patently bogus assumptions.  Making ‘counter assumptions’ would not be productive.  Showing why the bogosity exists is much more productive, and might just get you to think about the paradigm you have postulated. EMS  But they will buy one when the costs are going to be EMS  recovered, and soon.  I bought a new refridgerator.  The EMS  old one worked fine.  I bought the new one because it had EMS  about a 3 year payback periodsolar power water heater cost, just maybe, you are face to face with your own failures?  You are claiming that I’m ‘innumerate’. Fine.  Some data:  Bank America Math Award in high school.  Calculus through partials and integrals in college (though I’d be hard pressed to do a partial integration at this point.)  Linear Programming required for my major.  Accounting &  Statistics required.  Math SAT score of 700+ (it was 7xx and I’ve forgotten the xx…).   Computer programmer for a living for many years (lots of applied arithmetic…) and presently a manager (budgets and multi-year budget plans). You, my friend, are far out in left field smelling the daisies…   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

God, I hope not …  I think I’m gonna bail on this one … — I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed. “In an ideal world, the Federal government would live up to it’s charter to provide for the common defense, promote the general national welfare, and arbitrate disputes among the States. Of course that’s unlikely to happen given the womb to tomb security mentality, the bread and circuses desires, and the payoff of pork politics.” solar power water heater cost

Response:

.#150 EMS CS |  I will also assure you if you do not have the capability to EMS CS |  provide that 100 amp service you will be blowing breakers EMS CS |  all the time. EMS      The assumption to begin with was no change internal to EMS a house or business or whatever. EMS  This, IMHO, is a bogus assumption.  But then again, many of EMS  your assumptions were not well founded in reality.  Anyone EMS  who would buy a large expensive PV array and NOT replace a EMS  few bubls with CF bulbs would be suffering a major brain EMS  fault in the analytical skills department…      As the objective was to deal with the quesiton of solar power replacing fossil and nuclear it was an essential assumption.  I can demonstrate very simply.solar power water heater cost      To have discussed the entire country completely converting all electricity using equipment to optimize, that is minimize, power consumption it would have required a major engineering exercise on my part and certainly one which I am not prepared to accomplish.  Further, were I to have made a best effort it would certainly have been the most debatable part of the exercise.      As the first number upon which it is all based is that number it would be an irrational start.  As I conducted the exercise, and as you have noticed here certainly, others have provided better estimates of efficiency for various steps which are most appreciated.      If you are interested in providingi that primary number with your rational for deriving it then it is a simple matter correct the final number.  When can I expect it? EMS CS  I think you missed the point Matt, the point was not that EMS CS  you dont need a 100A service, but that you dont need a EMS CS  supply capable of supplying 100A to EVERY HOUSE AT ONCE EMS CS  CONTINUOUSLY (which is what your figures were based on).  I EMS CS  doubt you even have to consider supplying 100A to every EMS CS  house ever! EMS      Of course one does not need 100A service full time but EMS I will challenge you to go back to 50 amps even in the EMS smallest apartment. EMS  I’ll go back to 20 Amps if you give me a PV system EMS  INCLUDING BATTERY STORAGE on my home.solar power water heater cost      If you recall what I wrote you will remember that I pointed out conversion and storage efficiencies precluded usage on a house with a large yard all as a solar farm.      As to your 20 amp service, that means you do not have an electric water heater or an air conditioner.  The level load for an A/C unit is 5000-7000 watts.  You would need several things. A DC powered A/C unit and a means of preventing the water heater and it from kicking in at the same time with your minimal 50 amp unit for A/C. EMS You can not negate turn on transients by fiat.  You can not EMS say dryers will not draw a major resistive load and the EMS motor transient while starting.  Things just don’t work that EMS way. EMS  You CAN very easily ‘negate’ transients if you have a nice EMS  large inverter and battery pack that can handle the EMS  transients… EMS  All you need the PV for is the average power consumption. EMS  The transients are handled by the storage and inverter EMS  components.      I will leave it to you to provide that average requirement. When you do we have a simple multiple to the bottom.      You realize I do not understand people who spend very, very long messages making a point like this when they need only provide a single number and make a single multiplication.  You do not compute figuratively and literally.      Why not lead off with your estimate of the average and the calculation and get on with it?  Why all this verbal rufage? Just to shove in a snide remark for openers? EMS  But they will buy one when the costs are going to be EMS  recovered, and soon.  I bought a new refridgerator.  The EMS  old one worked fine.  I bought the new one because it had EMS  about a 3 year payback period. EMS     We are not presently in a rational discussion.solar power water heater cost   EMS I’ll say …      You get cuter by the minute.  (Is snider a word?)  I would presume you are unable to determine the average consumption or to make the simple calculation.  I do find in the discussions I am faced with the innumerate among us who are unable to think in numbers and who can only challenge bits and pieces of things and never grasp the simplicity of their task IF there was not innumerate.solar power water heater cost

Response:

Atmospheric effects on home made solar power water heater

Question:

I would be very grateful if anyone could help me with an approximate home made solar power water heater equation or data (or get-attable references to equations or data) to predict the intensity of solar radiation on a normal surface as a function of latitude and time of day. Solar constant: the rate of reception of solar energy by unit area of the earth’s surface when the earth is at its mean distance from the sun, the radiation strikes the surface normally, and atmospheric absorption has been corrected for;

A complete set of data can be obtained from NREL and its free. Ask for: “Solar Radiation Data Manual for Flat-Plate and Concentrating Collectors” “Insolation Data Manual and Direct Mormal Solar Radiation Data Manual” These references have everything you could posibly want and more for any location in the US. Find the NREL address on the net.

Response:

Hi All, I am trying to estimate the energy home made solar power water heater benefits of making a flat solar panel (water heater or electric) track the sun rather than remain at a fixed angle. To do this I need to estimate the total incident solar power density (direct + scattered) in watts/m^2 on a plane normal to the sun’s rays at various latitudes and various times of the day. I would be very grateful if anyone could help me with an approximate equation or data (or get-attable references to equations or data) to predict the intensity of solar radiation on a normal surface as a function of latitude and time of day.

Response:

Solar constant: the rate of reception home made solar power water heater of solar energy by unit area of the earth’s surface when the earth is at its mean distance from the sun, the radiation strikes the surface normally, and atmospheric absorption has been corrected for;

Generating set troubleshoot solar power water heater- Help !

Question:

troubleshoot solar power water heater We are a french/american team conducting a project of small bungalow hotel on the south coast of Guatemala (Monterrico zone). In the zone where we plan to build, there is no electrical line and we will have to install an electric plant. As this investment is a personal one (My wife and I are investing all we own in this project), we will hire a local constructor who is not a real specialist in electrical matter. This hotel will be composed by 12 simple bungalows (without air conditioned), a restaurant(kitchen with normal electrical need -mainly fridges, and a personal house (air conditioned in one room). I am no able to calculate the amount of electric power we will need, but, if you know some bungalow hotel in this area, you know that they are very simple and you maybe a raw estimation could be possible. In fact we need to be help to choose the most reliable and economic material. Gasoline ? diesel ? Accumulator system ? We do need help ! If you get no time to devote to my problem, could you maybe indicate to us to who we could address our question ?troubleshoot solar power water heater