Question:

I have a commercial poultry operation and vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters are looking for economical ways to heat my farm, If possible, I would like use renewable energy sources… vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

How about a greenhouse? They’ll bulldoze my front lawn Sunday morning, two greenhouse kits will be delivered on Monday, and my farmer friend and I hope to have them assembled and filled with 500 tomato plants already started in other houses by April 15. Standard labor to put up a 30 x 96′ greenhouse in a field from scratch is 3 people, vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters 1 day (if they know what they are doing Putting the single 28 x 100′ pieces of plastic film on these 14′ wide x 9′ tall x 96′ long houses should take 2 people an hour or so, on a calm day. The house nearer the road will be covered with Bayer’s new clear 10-year Dureflex urethane film (tres elegant, non?), and the one behind it will have a $120 piece of standard 4-year cloudy greenhouse polyethylene film with UV inhibitors. Assembling these houses is fairly simple, like a large erector set, more like a tent than a building… Pound the 50″ “ground sleeve” pipes into the ground on 4′ centers, making the tops all the same level, then slip the single-piece bent hoop pipes into them, and attach the ridge pipe purlin with clamps. Then add 1×4 hip purlin boards to the hoops with U-clamps to secure the plastic film at the top of the roll up sides, about 4′ above the ground, and bolt a 1×8 perimeter skirtboard to the ground sleeves (we aren’t sure we need this, but we’ll probably do it anyway.) The endwalls will be plastic film over 2×4 framing on 4×8′ centers, with 1 or 2 plastic-film-covered 4×8′ doors. (We’ll put up the houses running EW with a 14′ space between them, and at some point we may add another arch between them to make them into a single 42′ x 96′ 4,032 ft^2 gutter-connected greenhouse with 3 arches and a little more post bracing under the gutters, like, 2×4s U-clamped to the vertical part of those pipes to prevent buckling, and maybe a soaker hose in each seamless gutter for snow melting, with the plastic films lapped over the center arch.) The next step is to stretch the large piece of plastic film over the frame squarely and secure it to the hip boards with deck screws and another 1×4 batten board, then lay the bottom edge of the film out flat on the ground about a foot on each side of the house, slide together each 100′ thinwall swedged pipe roller, attach a T-handle with a right angle clamp at one end, and duct tape (the universal solution vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters the plastic to the roller pipe every 2′. vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters The roller pipe ends up hanging from the film as it’s rolled up, so as I understand this, it only needs a handle at one end. The high tunnel ap note from ag prof Otho Wells at U New Hampshire says one person can roll up an entire 96′ side from one end in about 20 seconds (about 10 turns on the crank.) vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters It might be fun to mechanize this with thermostatic control. We might slowly rotate another ridge purlin with a gearmotor, with some strings attached to that axle that loop under both side rollers from the inside of the house, with the other ends of the strings joining in a loop over the outside of the house between the bows, which would also serve to reduce wind flutter and plastic film fatigue. Bubblewalls are another option for shading and insulation. The hoops are 21′ lengths of standard schedule 40 3/4″ galvanized water pipe, (1.05″ OD) bent into a gothic arch shape (3 bends, like the outline of a typical house) by 2 people using a large outdoor plywood table with some simple 2×4 guides nailed to it as a jig. The manufacturer Mike Schwarz (302) 656-0276 is a low-overhead wholesale pipe vendor in Wilmington DE who got into the greenhouse business when he realized that he was selling a lot of his pipe with cosmetic defects to large local growers who were bending it into greenhouses. He doesn’t know much about the greenhouse business yet, and doesn’t realize that he’s in the solar heating business, and hasn’t applied for any million solar roof grants yet, so his prices are quite low, at 42 cents per square foot of “solar collector,” or about 0.4 cents per peak watt, about a hundred times less than photovoltaic power. Happy spring! vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

Response:

He doesn’t know much about the greenhouse business yet, and doesn’t realize that he’s in the solar heating business, and hasn’t applied for any million solar roof grants yet, so his prices are quite low, at 42 cents per square foot of “solar collector,” or about 0.4 cents per peak watt, about a hundred times less than photovoltaic power. vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

Oops, that’s a thousand times less. Happy spring! Nick

Response:

This might not work for a farm situation, but didn’t the Tightwad Gazette have an idea about using shelves with black-painted milk jugs filled with water as heat collectors?  Hmmm, if it was for a chicken house, it might work, but not for a commercial property… vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

Response:

I have a commercial poultry operation and are looking for economical ways to heat my farm, If possible, I would like use renewable energy

sources.vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters.. Birds put out a lot of heat on their own, so I’m a little curious about how far north you are. A green house built against the barn with a bunch of 55 gal drums painted black for thermal ballast and a bunch of black plastic hoses for heat pick up. Basic design similar to several solar hot water heaters published in old Mother Earth News magazines. Maybe someone in alt arch alt remembers that solar heated house a Japanese woman (?) designed for the west coast of Alaska. Not meaning to be critical, but could you break the news groups you post to into groups so people responding do not end up spamming a dozen ng’s? Another alternative might be to get one of those news reader programs that lets you set follow-ups to a single newsgroup of your choice while posting to many. You’ll get more responses from people who might otherwise not post. Posting from misc rural vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

Response:

I have a commercial poultry operation and are looking for economical ways to heat my farm, If possible, I would like use renewable energy sources… Birds put out a lot of heat on their own…

About 16 Btu/h of sensible and 18 of latent heat (chicken sweat for an ASHRAE-standard 2-pound broiler raised at 60 F on litter. A green house built against the barn with a bunch of 55 gal drums painted black for thermal ballast and a bunch of black plastic hoses…

…might work better with lots of insulation vs glazing with overheating during the day and lots of heat loss at night. And who needs thermal mass with the chickens doing the heating? Ventilation would help, eg a couple of Jade Mountain’s FC115 $54 Thermofor passive vent openers opening some hinged foamboard panels up to 15 pounds and 15″ when the temperature reaches 70 F. (I have no financial interest in Jade Mountain, BTW.) Basic design similar to several solar hot water heaters published in old Mother Earth News magazines.

Why heat hot water? :vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters Those designs seem inefficient and labor-intensive and not easy to replicate (“Charlie and me drove around all day until we found this bathtub, see? It wuz mostly buried in mud, and we got out our shovels and crowbars…”) Not meaning to be critical, but could you break the news groups you post to into groups so people responding do not end up spamming a dozen ng’s? vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

No. Spamming is commercial. Few of my postings are, and it seems to me they are relevant to the crossposted groups. Others might observe the same discipline in their posted responses, removing irrelevant newsgroups as needed (eg alt.solar.thermal from “Hydrogen revisited.”) Crossposting doesn’t waste bandwidth or human time, since you’ll only see this posting once even if you subscribe to all the newsgroups, and it encourages a more interdisciplinary view of the world, global piracy, vs lots of insular cross-eyed cargo cults, like PV enthusiasts who want to heat houses with electric resistance devices. Happy Spring, vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

Response:

vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters Not meaning to be critical, but could you break the news groups you post to into groups so people responding do not end up spamming a dozen ng’s? No. Spamming is commercial. Few of my postings are, and it seems to me they are relevant to the crossposted groups. Others might observe the same discipline in their posted responses, removing irrelevant newsgroups as needed (eg alt.solar.thermal from “Hydrogen revisited.”) Crossposting doesn’t waste bandwidth or human time, since you’ll only see this posting once even if you subscribe to all the newsgroups, and it encourages a more interdisciplinary view of the world, global piracy, vs lots of insular cross-eyed cargo cults, like PV enthusiasts who want to heat houses with electric resistance devices. Happy Spring, Nick

Anytime you ask a question and make it impossible for a person to reply to you without posting to a dozen newsgroups, you are spamming. Please include a VALID Email address that can accept replies. Every reply goes to a dozen places, and I bet most of the replies are complaining about your crossposting…

Response:

I have a commercial poultry operation and are looking for economical ways to heat my farm, If possible, I would like use renewable energy sources… Birds put out a lot of heat on their own… About 16 Btu/h of sensible and 18 of latent heat (chicken sweat for an ASHRAE-standard 2-pound broiler raised at 60 F on litter.

That’s useful info. I hadn’t seen numbers on the thermal output of birds before.  I’ve used my pet peacock as a foot warmer on cold nights for years.  Higher heat output than a cat or dog.  The cost to operate is chickenfeed.  If I could just solve the polution problem…vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

Response:

I have a commercial poultry operation and are looking for economical ways to heat my farm, If possible, I would like use renewable energy sources…

With all due respect to Nick(the greenhouse man), the most obvious thing for you to do, that could solve 2 problems at once, is to build a chicken poop digester, and use the methane to heat the buildings / run a generator, whatever. I don’t know where to suggest you start looking but I think that it would be your best long-term bet.

Response:

vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

Religious nuts and so on. But in my mind, if the subject matter is relevant to more than one group, it’s fine and useful to crosspost. As far as the user only seeing any given cross-post that’s true with certain news readers.  Not all have that ability.

I don’t know of any such readers. Perhaps you are looking at the same thing posted individually to multiple newsgroups, which can be a pain, vs crosspostings. Incidentally, one is not “forced to reply” to all groups, if a) one recognizes an obvious email address fudge like “sanspam” and removes it to reply by email, or b) removes irrelevant newsgroups from the header upon responding with a posting. More than ’nuff said on this subject, vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

Response:

The normal setup for forced air is both outlet and inlet ducts in the floor. This is fine when the heat source is the furnace, but for circulating solar heat not so fine, because the warm air will simply sit on the ceiling while the cold air scoots along the floor. So you need powerful ceiling fans to drive the warm air down towards the registers. Or alternately you could install additional ducts to pick up heat from the ceiling. Hope this helps I want to reduce our heating costs.  We live in southwestern Ontario.  We have good insulation and the house is sealed quite well.  I want to construct a solar heat collector and already have the plans drawn up….  Now, I am curious if I could use ducts to connect the solar heat collector to my forced air furnace ductwork to distribute the heat throughout the house,

“One good thing about self-pity…you don’t have to doubt its sincerity.”

Response:

The normal setup for forced air is both outlet and inlet ducts in the floor. This is fine when the heat source is the furnace, but for circulating solar heat not so fine, because the warm air will simply sit on the ceiling while the cold air scoots along the floor.

Would the location of the heat source be that important? Why wouldn’t the warm air from the furnace decide to go sit on the ceiling too? So you need powerful ceiling fans to drive the warm air down towards the registers.

Ceiling fans aren’t that powerful. Grainger’s $140 110W 4F424 56″ diameter reversible fan moves 27,500 cfm, equivalent to about 28 20″ window box fans. How much airflow do we need?vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

Response:

The normal setup for forced air is both outlet and inlet ducts in the floor. This is fine when the heat source is the furnace, but for circulating solar heat not so fine, because the warm air will simply sit on the ceiling while the cold air scoots along the floor. Would the location of the heat source be that important? Why wouldn’t the warm air from the furnace decide to go sit on the ceiling too?

When the furnace is working, hot air is pushed out the supply ducts, and cold air is being pulled down the return ducts. The air circulates vertically within the room, first rising to the ceiling and then settling to the floor as it cools before returning to the furnace.    However, when the supply registers have air at the same temperature as the return ducts, the air simply slides along the floor between the ducts, and does not mix with the warmer ceiling air (not all that well, anyway).    Hope I’m explaining this OK. Maybe someone else could do a better job. So you need powerful ceiling fans to drive the warm air down towards the registers. Ceiling fans aren’t that powerful. Grainger’s $140 110W 4F424 56″ diameter reversible fan moves 27,500 cfm, equivalent to about 28 20″ window box fans. How much airflow do we need?

That’s plenty powerful. However, the average house probably needs more than one, in different rooms. – “One good thing about self-pity…you don’t have to doubt its sincerity.”

Response:

The normal setup for forced air is both outlet and inlet ducts in the floor. This is fine when the heat source is the furnace, but for circulating solar heat not so fine, because the warm air will simply sit on the ceiling while the cold air scoots along the floor. Would the location of the heat source be that important? Why wouldn’t the warm air from the furnace decide to go sit on the ceiling too?   When the furnace is working, hot air is pushed out the supply ducts, and cold air is being pulled down the return ducts. The air circulates vertically within the room, first rising to the ceiling and then settling to the floor as it cools before returning to the furnace.

I think the air in the room is mostly well-mixed by the energy in the airstream imparted by the furnace blower, vs temperature differences, in this case, vs a woodstove in the center of a room.   However, when the supply registers have air at the same temperature as the return ducts, the air simply slides along the floor between the ducts, and does not mix with the warmer ceiling air (not all that well, anyway).

I don’t think it does that, in fact. It seems to me that the room air would still mix well, as long as the same air velocity exited the supply registers, which are rated for “throw” at certain velocities. With no obstructions, the moving airstream mixes the room air like open windows cause wind all over a car or a bathtub tap heats all of the bathwater. vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a commercial poultry operation and are looking for economical ways to heat my farm, If possible, I would like use renewable energy sources… Birds put out a lot of heat on their own… About 16 Btu/h of sensible and 18 of latent heat (chicken sweat for an ASHRAE-standard 2-pound broiler raised at 60 F on litter. That’s useful info. I hadn’t seen numbers on the thermal output of birds before.  I’ve used my pet peacock as a foot warmer on cold nights for years.  Higher heat output than a cat or dog.  The cost to operate is chickenfeed.  If I could just solve the polution problem… vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

Response:

Now, I am curious if I could use ducts to connect the solar heat collector to my forced air furnace ductwork to distribute the heat throughout the house, specifically the main level?

One simple technique is to install floor vents in your main level.  That way, you will have warm air rising into your main living space without the need for turning on energy-consuming fans. You can also employ water tanks of some sort in direct solar gain (the sun shines directly on them) if you want to level out the heat distribution throughout the day and night. Cheers, Will Stewart

Response:

Birds put out a lot of heat on their own… About 16 Btu/h of sensible and 18 of latent heat (chicken sweat for an ASHRAE-standard 2-pound broiler raised at 60 F on litter. That’s useful info. I hadn’t seen numbers on the thermal output of birds before…

The ASHRAE Handbook of Fundamentals (HOF) has many cheerful facts about animal heat production, eg sheep heat as a function of air temperature and fleece length. …Wonder, though, which BTU the writer is using, the BTU [international] or BTU [therm]?

Looks like it hardly matters. They don’t differ a great deal, though.  16 BTU international would be equivalent to 4.689 watts and 16 therms 4.686 watts.

Whoa, those are apples and oranges! Btu’s are energy, and watts are power, the time rate of change of energy, like miles vs miles per hour. In other words, Energy = Power x Time. A watt-hour is 3.41 Btu, so 16 Btu is 4.69 watt-hours or 0.00469 kilowatt hours (kWh.) Also, a “therm” is 100K Btu, roughly equivalent to a gallon of oil, in natural gas circles. Anyone want to bother to calculate practical considerations such as how many chickens it would take to produce enough chicken manure to produce enough methane to produce 36 kilowatts of usable power?

The smallest creature listed in the NRAES On-Farm Biogas Production book is a 130 pound feeder pig who produces 0.16 cubic feet (a 6.5″ cube of manure per day which makes 5.6 ft^3/day of biogas which can make 0.2 kWh/day of electrical energy, ie 8.3 watts, on a continuous basis (vs. 4.83×130^0.75 = 186 watts of heat from the pig, according to the HOF), so producing 36 kW on a continuous basis requires 4,320 pigs, which could make you unpopular with the neighbors. Aerobically composting poop or raising animals for heat production seems like a much better deal, energy-wise, and requires simpler equipment. Nick Expired US Patent No. 3,933,628 (US Patents are available for $3 each from The Superintendent of Patents and Trademarks, Washington, DC 20231) describes a “Method and Apparatus for the Anaerobic Digestion of Decomposable Organic Materials,” issued to inventor Frederick T. Varani of Golden, CO on Jan 20, 1976, and assigned to Bio-Gas of Colorado. He describes a way to make methane in conjunction with a 100,000-cow feedlot, using 2 EPDM-rubber-lined trenches, each 700 feet long x 80 feet wide x 40 feet deep. The trenches have self-inflated translucent “solar covers” and cost $0.02 per gallon, including excavation. The feedlot generates 3.3 million pounds of manure each day, along with 6 million pounds of water and 200,000 pounds of carbon, which the digesters turn into about 7 million cubic feet of methane per day with a heating value of 277 million Btu per hour, along with 2 1/2 million cubic feet of CO2. The digesters contain heat exchangers for temperature control…   The fermentation reaction will proceed satisfactorily at any temperature   between approximately 90 F and 115 F, however, between these limits many   different species of bacteria become active, each in its own particular   temperature zone carved out of this broader range. In other words, the   digestion process is basically an equilibrium between many species of   bacteria that live upon various substrates (food) and on one another.   Changes in temperature cause this equilibrium to shift and some of the   more temperature-sensitive species die off or become less active while   others assume a more active role… Ideally, methanogenic bacteria should   be kept at about 95 F and the temperature range should not be allowed to   vary more than +/- 2 F per day from this base temperature if temperature   shock is to be avoided. This could be a municipal sewage treatment system, without the cows, or an efficient way to combine sewage treatment and long term passive solar thermal storage, for a single house, on a smaller scale. Pages 825-826 of Metcalf and Eddy’s 1991 _Wastewater Engineering_ say   Typical values [of gas production] vary from 12-18 ft^3/lb of volatile solids   destroyed… Gas production can also be crudely estimated on a per capita   basis. The normal yield is 0.6 to 0.8 ft^3/person/day (15 to 22 m^3/1000   persons/day) in primary plants treating normal domestic wastewater. In   secondary plants, the gas production is increased to 1.0 ft^3/person/day…   Because digester gas is typically about 65% methane, the low heating value   of digester gas is approximately 600 Btu/ft^3 (22,400 kJ/m^3)… In large   plants digester gas may be used as fuel for boiler and internal combustion   engines, which are in turn used for pumping wastewater, operating blowers,   and generating electricity… Because digester gas contains hydrogen sulfide,   particulates and water vapor, the gas frequently has to be cleaned in dry   or wet scrubbers before it is used in internal combustion engines.

Response:

vacuum tube  solar hot water heatersI have a commercial poultry operation and are looking for economical ways to heat my farm, If possible, I would like use renewable energy sources… 2== However, differences  can be quite significant when talking large numbers.   The chicken farmer [rancher?] estimated his energy requirement as 36,000  watts, or 36 kw,  did he not? 3== Someone proposed that the fecal output from the chickens could be used to produce methane, which could be used as a source of heat, tractor fuel, etc. Anyone want to bother to calculate practical considerations such as how many chickens it would take to produce enough chicken manure to produce enough methane to produce 36 kilowatts of usable power?

A “large commercial poultry operation” implies thousands of birds, and daily fecal removal/disposal.   Disposal of said fecal matter is a huge problem. Dumping it into pit after pit to degrade or dumping it into methane digester tanks for relatively quick disposal AND recieving all the gas you need for motor fuel, generators, heat, plus hi-grade fertilizer. Or the effort expended in collecting the daily output of chicken manure and transferring it to the digester, especially if the chickens are free-range and not battery chickens?

as above, effort has to be expended (poop has to be removed), and there are no “large commercial poultry operation” with “free ranging birds” in this country that i’ve ever seen. don’t know how it’s done ‘down-under’, but here commercial chicken/turkey ‘farms’ are huge, low sheds housing 10k+ birds, in cages. feeding is automatic, fecal matter removal is MANDATORY by law (besides, you’d be up to your *** in days) for sanitary reasons. ….Now if the chickens could be toilet trained to go to the digester input, might be practical.  However, I have never heard of a toilet-trained bird of any description.   There is a reason for the term “bird brained”. 4== Someone suggested running a tractor on methane.  If they look into it, think they will find that this isn’t all that easy either. 5== Chicken manure  is one of the highest energy natural fertilizers. My suggestion to the chicken farmer is to simply collect the chicken manure and sell it for this purpose and to buy the electricity and fuel he needs. vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

If you check with your Brit friends, they can tell you of all the poultry/dairy/goat/pig farms that have been energy self-sufficient since before WWII, all on methane. also, there are commercial digester manufacturers in AU., GB, US and many other countries.vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

Response:

vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters However, differences  can be quite significant when talking large numbers.   The chicken farmer [rancher?] estimated his energy requirement as 36,000  watts, or 36 kw,  did he not? 3== Someone proposed that the fecal output from the chickens could be used to produce methane, which could be used as a source of heat, tractor fuel, etc. Anyone want to bother to calculate practical considerations such as how many chickens it would take to produce enough chicken manure to produce enough methane to produce 36 kilowatts of usable power? Or the effort expended in collecting the daily output of chicken manure and transferring it to the digester, especially if the chickens are free-range and not battery chickens?   ….Now if the chickens could be toilet trained to go to the digester input, might be practical.  However, I have never heard of a toilet-trained bird of any description.   There is a reason for the term “bird brained”. 4== Someone suggested running a tractor on methane.  If they look into it, think they will find that this isn’t all that easy either. 5== Chicken manure  is one of the highest energy natural fertilizers. My suggestion to the chicken farmer is to simply collect the chicken manure and sell it for this purpose and to buy the electricity and fuel he needs.

Bacause of its low C/N ratio, chicken manure would give rise to volatile nitrogen comopounds as it rotted, and the fertilizer value would drop. If you added a high-C waste product to the mix (Ideal mix is 30:1 C:N), you could capture all the nitrogen, recover some methane, and make a stable compost which would be more valuable than the original chicken manure.

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vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

And I’m curious as to if a black tin roof could be arranged to sit 100mm proud of an insulating layer and hot air collected at the ridge and blown down in?  If a DC fan was run direct off a solar cell array it would only work when required; ie when the sun shines.  In hot weather the system could be used to pull a cooling draught into the building, by the suction of hot air rising to the ridge and being allowed to escape, and the output of the solar cell used to run well…a small fridge? vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

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According to Producing your own Power (etd by Carol Hupping Stoner) 100 chickens will produce between 12-24 qubic ft of methane per day..hope this helps Carl – vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters Birds put out a lot of heat on their own… About 16 Btu/h of sensible and 18 of latent heat (chicken sweat for an ASHRAE-standard 2-pound broiler raised at 60 F on litter. That’s useful info. I hadn’t seen numbers on the thermal output of birds before… The ASHRAE Handbook of Fundamentals (HOF) has many cheerful facts about animal heat production, eg sheep heat as a function of air temperature and fleece length. …Wonder, though, which BTU the writer is using, the BTU [international] or BTU [therm]? Looks like it hardly matters. They don’t differ a great deal, though.  16 BTU international would be equivalent to 4.689 watts and 16 therms 4.686 watts. Whoa, those are apples and oranges! Btu’s are energy, and watts are power, the time rate of change of energy, like miles vs miles per hour. In other words, Energy = Power x Time. A watt-hour is 3.41 Btu, so 16 Btu is 4.69 watt-hours or 0.00469 kilowatt hours (kWh.) Also, a “therm” is 100K Btu, roughly equivalent to a gallon of oil, in natural gas circles. Anyone want to bother to calculate practical considerations such as how many chickens it would take to produce enough chicken manure to produce enough methane to produce 36 kilowatts of usable power? The smallest creature listed in the NRAES On-Farm Biogas Production book is a 130 pound feeder pig who produces 0.16 cubic feet (a 6.5″ cube of manure per day which makes 5.6 ft^3/day of biogas which can make 0.2 kWh/day of electrical energy, ie 8.3 watts, on a continuous basis (vs. 4.83×130^0.75 = 186 watts of heat from the pig, according to the HOF), so producing 36 kW on a continuous basis requires 4,320 pigs, which could make you unpopular with the neighbors. Aerobically composting poop or raising animals for heat production seems like a much better deal, energy-wise, and requires simpler equipment. Nick Expired US Patent No. 3,933,628 (US Patents are available for $3 each from The Superintendent of Patents and Trademarks, Washington, DC 20231) describes a “Method and Apparatus for the Anaerobic Digestion of Decomposable Organic Materials,” issued to inventor Frederick T. Varani of Golden, CO on Jan 20, 1976, and assigned to Bio-Gas of Colorado. He describes a way to make methane in conjunction with a 100,000-cow feedlot, using 2 EPDM-rubber-lined trenches, each 700 feet long x 80 feet wide x 40 feet deep. The trenches have self-inflated translucent “solar covers” and cost $0.02 per gallon, including excavation. The feedlot generates 3.3 million pounds of manure each day, along with 6 million pounds of water and 200,000 pounds of carbon, which the digesters turn into about 7 million cubic feet of methane per day with a heating value of 277 million Btu per hour, along with 2 1/2 million cubic feet of CO2. The digesters contain heat exchangers for temperature control…   The fermentation reaction will proceed satisfactorily at any temperature   between approximately 90 F and 115 F, however, between these limits many   different species of bacteria become active, each in its own particular   temperature zone carved out of this broader range. In other words, the   digestion process is basically an equilibrium between many species of   bacteria that live upon various substrates (food) and on one another.   Changes in temperature cause this equilibrium to shift and some of the   more temperature-sensitive species die off or become less active while   others assume a more active role… Ideally, methanogenic bacteria should   be kept at about 95 F and the temperature range should not be allowed to   vary more than +/- 2 F per day from this base temperature if temperature   shock is to be avoided. This could be a municipal sewage treatment system, without the cows, or an efficient way to combine sewage treatment and long term passive solar thermal storage, for a single house, on a smaller scale. Pages 825-826 of Metcalf and Eddy’s 1991 _Wastewater Engineering_ say   Typical values [of gas production] vary from 12-18 ft^3/lb of volatile solids   destroyed… Gas production can also be crudely estimated on a per capita   basis. The normal yield is 0.6 to 0.8 ft^3/person/day (15 to 22 m^3/1000   persons/day) in primary plants treating normal domestic wastewater. In   secondary plants, the gas production is increased to 1.0 ft^3/person/day…   Because digester gas is typically about 65% methane, the low heating value   of digester gas is approximately 600 Btu/ft^3 (22,400 kJ/m^3)… In large   plants digester gas may be used as fuel for boiler and internal combustion   engines, which are in turn used for pumping wastewater, operating blowers,   and generating electricity… Because digester gas contains hydrogen sulfide,   particulates and water vapor, the gas frequently has to be cleaned in dry   or wet scrubbers before it is used in internal combustion engines.

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…when the supply registers have air at the same temperature as the return ducts, the air simply slides along the floor between the ducts, and does not mix with the warmer ceiling air… You lost me when you said that supply ducts and return ducts could have the same temperature.  Wouldn’t that result in a thermostatic shut off of fan and furnace?

We want the fan on as long as the sunspace is warm and the house needs heat. Long before there were forced air furnaces, there were “gravity flow” systems that simply used the principle of convection…

vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

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vacuum tube  solar hot water heatersThe normal setup for forced air is both outlet and inlet ducts in the floor. This is fine when the heat source is the furnace, but for circulating solar heat not so fine, because the warm air will simply sit on the ceiling while the cold air scoots along the floor. Would the location of the heat source be that important? Why wouldn’t the warm air from the furnace decide to go sit on the ceiling too?    When the furnace is working, hot air is pushed out the supply ducts, and cold air is being pulled down the return ducts. The air circulates vertically within the room, first rising to the ceiling and then settling to the floor as it cools before returning to the furnace.    However, when the supply registers have air at the same temperature as the return ducts, the air simply slides along the floor between the ducts, and does not mix with the warmer ceiling air (not all that well, anyway).    Hope I’m explaining this OK. Maybe someone else could do a better job.

You lost me when you said that supply ducts and return ducts could have the same temperature.  Wouldn’t that result in a thermostatic shut off of fan and furnace? Long before there were forced air furnaces, there were “gravity flow” systems that simply used the principle of convection.  Houses were only as comfortable as the furnace fire was <big, and/or the insulation kept the heat in.  With solar heating, the same principle should work if the heat storage source is in the lowest part of the house.  Without any blowers, air expands as it is heated, and becomes relatively lighter than the cold dense air which falls in replacement of the the hot air, which rises.  Convection is a relatively constant circular vertical flow, not just a matter of hot air rising and staying up there forever.  It can’t be as hot as the newly heated air on its way up, which forces the slightly cooler air back down toward the heat source, endlessly.  My approach will always be to let convection happen, with appropriate ducts/registers/whatever…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So you need powerful ceiling fans to drive the warm air down towards the registers. Ceiling fans aren’t that powerful. Grainger’s $140 110W 4F424 56″ diameter reversible fan moves 27,500 cfm, equivalent to about 28 20″ window box fans. How much airflow do we need?    That’s plenty powerful. However, the average house probably needs more than one, in different rooms. – “One good thing about self-pity…you don’t have to doubt its sincerity.”

vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

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The problem is that they come with their own amplifiers. I can’t believe the rock-concert sounds that come out of that tiny head! vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

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The problem is that they come with their own amplifiers. I can’t believe the rock-concert sounds that come out of that tiny head! vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

Years ago I went with my best friend first thing one spring morning to drive her 81-year-old granny for admission to hospital.  When we arrived, the granny said she was almost ready, but we *must* have a cup of tea (old Scottish lady, didn’t go anywhere without her morning tea) and that she still had to feed her bird. When she went to the other room to feed the bird, and I guess took the cover off the cage, there was a sudden burst of sound that made me spurt tea all over.  I’d thought she had a canary.  I just had to go see what kind of bird it really was and/or how many birds were really in there!  It *was* a canary, and only one. Seeing me still mopping the front of my shirt with a napkin, the granny figured out what had happened and explained:  ”I used to have two canaries.  When the other one died, this one was silent for about a week.  Then I guess she made up her mind that it was her responsibility to make enough song and noise for two, and she’s been singing and making a racket like that every day since.  Sometimes it’s quite a nuisance, but mostly I love it.  When Pappy goes, if he goes before me, I hope I can take the same attitude and spread enough joy for two.” Thanks, Janis, for bringing back the memory of a lovely old couple, now both long gone. Melanie ObfrugalNewPet(s): Some wonderful pets are available at animal shelters for much less than pet stores or breeders or classified ads are asking, and those at most animal shelters have been checked over for health problems and suitability for adoption (temperament, etc.)  Here, the SPCA also arranges for spay or neutering (if needed) at a discount rate, and though they don’t advertise it, they often have an “instore special” of two adoptions for the price of one.

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preferred is calcium chloride hexahydrate (1 pt CaCl, 6 pts H2O). melts when sun shines (absorbs energy) and freezes when it cools down (releases energy). the energy absorbed/released is the CaCl.6H2O ‘heat of fusion’. can’t find the number but typically stated in kilo-calories/gram. definitely ‘much’. in english, the melting/freezing of 1 gram of CaCl.6H2O will absorb/release ‘much’ energy without it’s temperature changing from it’s freezing point (30 C). at room temp, water will only rise 1 deg(C) for each calorie absorbed and release the same when the room gets cooler. if you try to store a kilo-calorie in a gram water you’d have to raise the temp 1000 deg. with the CaCl, you only need to melt it to store ‘much’ heat. sorry i can’t seem to find the heat of fusion for CaCl.6H2O but it’s certainly more than the 1 cal/gram you get heating water. wray This might not work for a farm situation, but didn’t the Tightwad Gazette have an idea about using shelves with black-painted milk jugs filled with water as heat collectors?  Hmmm, if it was for a chicken house, it might work, but not for a commercial property.vacuum tube  solar hot water heaters

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Question:

I had 4 solar panel sunearth solar hot water heaters
installed on my house last summer, and I believe we turned off the gas heater about May thru October or November.  Maximum temperature seems to be about 120, with about 110 the norm (60 gal tank).   I am interested in doing a bit more with this system. I would like to also store the solar heated water in my regular heater tank (I currently use it to preheat winter water), but to keep it hot I will probably need to cycle it through the solar tank.  I currently bypass the regular tank when totally on solar heated water. Does anyone have any suggested ways to do this? (I am looking for specific sunearth solar hot water heaters
recommendations on controllers and pumps.)sunearth solar hot water heaters
Any idea of the cost of the needed components?  I have not as yet (super) insulated the standard tank,  just a fiberglass blanket so far.  I would also like hotter water for the clothes washer and dishwasher, but that would probably take another panel or so.sunearth solar hot water heaters

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Anyone in London, UK on 8 May, the UK Solar Energy Society is organising a one-day meeting looking at the state of the industry in the UK. There’s info on-line:sunearth solar hot water heaters

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I’m about to start research on the development of solar hot water heaters. If anyone could provide me with a worthy starting point, it would be much appreciated.sunearth solar hot water heaters

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BRIAN, TAKE A LOOK AT OUR WEB SITE. I’M NOT SURE WHAT KIND OF R&D YOU ARE GOING TO DO. SMITTY. sunearth solar hot water heaters

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Join American Solar Energy Society 2400 Central Ave. Boulder Co. 80301 and ask for their publications list.  You’ll be learning from the best with this group.  They also have periodic confabs that could be very enlightening. Have fun, but steer clear of old stainless steel systems, they have a reputation of leaking. sunearth solar hot water heaters

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Question:

solar hot water heaters pennsylvania I am interested in simple designs for solar hot water heaters pennsylvaniasolar hot water heaters and hot water storage units.  Any help would be appreciated. — solar hot water heaters pennsylvania Walker International Education Northern Lights College Fort St. solar hot water heaters pennsylvania

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I am interested in simple designs for solar hot water heaters and hot water storage units.  Any help would be appreciated.

The Centre for Alternative Technology in Wales publish a book called <Solar Water Heating solar hot water heaters pennsylvania- A DIY Guide Which gives two simple methods of construction for solar hot water heaters. It also gives a circuit diagram for a temperature control if the panels have to be mounted higher than the hot water storage tank. Their e-mail address is I trust that the above is useful to you. solar hot water heaters pennsylvania

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Question:

TTI’ve always been taught and read that solar power is too inefficient to TTbe used as a power source beyond subsidization of other power. TT        I’m also aware that it’s quite cost-inefficient.solar hot water heaters tucson  TTCan anyone change my viewpoint? Trish,  despite  the misinformation coming from Brian  K.  Yoder, solar  power has many uses other than the ones he cites.  In  the first place, nearly every communications, weather, reconnaissance (or what have you), satellite in space is powered by photovoltaic (PV)  power.solar hot water heaters tucson  Many remote microwave communication towers  are  PV powered.  Thousands  of homes, mainly in the west and  mainly  in northern  California,  are powered by PV. There is even  a  small town  in Arizona running on PV power. The PV market is in  excess of  $380  million  and increasing 15%  annually.  Some  optimists project a $2 billion market by 1999. The main use of solar power on good ol’ Terra these days is  sup- plying  power to homes, farms and other facilities that are  more than  a  third of a mile from lines connected to  a  grid.  ”Home Power  Magazine” cites many such cases. Costs are coming down  so that  every  year that distance gets  reduced.  Solar  Technology Institute in Carbondale, CO is one of a number of a well attended schools teaching the techniques. There   about   a  half  dozen  companies,   including   Siemens, Solarex(Amoco), Kyocera, and Hoxan, that produce single  crystal, polycrystalline  or multi- junction amorphous photocells  running 10%-15%  efficiency, used in applications cited above. Panels  of cells can be obtained for $4.5 to $6.5 per peak watt. As far as grid power is concerned, the  Sacramento (CA) Municipal Utility  District  has been operating  ground-mounted  PV  arrays since  1985.  The Photovoltaics  for  Utility-Scale  Applications (PVUSA) is a continuing effort of the U.S. DOE, California Energy Commission, Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), and Pacific Gas  and  Electric Company in a facility near Davis, CA  to  test photovoltaic systems for grid use. As  far as efficiency is concerned, Boeing has obtained a  record 40%  with  a Gallium Arsenide (GaaS) cell. The Solar  Energy  Re- search Institute (now the Renewable Energy Research Institute), I believe, has a GAAS design that has reached 36%. But these  cells are relatively expensive to produce. A  more promising approach is a cell developed at  Stanford  Uni- versity  with EPRI financing and now being produced  by  Sunpower Corp.  of  Sunnyvale, CA. This cell uses  point  contact  silicon technology  that reaches 30% efficiency at 500 suns.  They  claim that the present cost of $10 per peak watt will be down to  $1.50 in  1996. They also claim they will be able to deliver  power  at $0.06  to  $0.07  per kilowatt-hour,  competitive  with  nuclear. Sunpower’s  ultimate plan is to produce  turn-key  multi-megawatt power stations. They have contracts to develop two test installa- tions, a 250 kw in late 1992 and a one megawatt  installation  in 1993. So  Trish, if institutions like EPRI seem to feel that  PV  solar power  has a future with the utilities, it can’t be that  ineffi- cient. There is lots of developement going on. The future is bright as far as solar is concerned, pun intended.solar hot water heaters tucson

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Yes, we don’t know the effects of large areas of solar collectors. But we know that in small scale they shouldn’t be a problem. Putting solar cells and solar collectors on a roof will not change the global climate! solar hot water heaters tucson

Putting solar collectors on roofs MIGHT change the local albedo enough to increase/decrease the urban heat island effect.  And unless the energy to manufacture and transport the components is “pure” solar, it might also contribute the global CO2 and possible climate changes.  Not too mention any pollutant by-products of manufacture that might be greenhouse gases.solar hot water heaters tucson

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Is this based on any facts or just your prejudices?  Do you think that running a semiconductor facility is easy?  Cheap?

You can’t compare the precision manufacturing required for VLSI production with the simple PN junction required in a solar cell. In principle, it can be very cheap to produce a solar cell wafer.solar hot water heaters tucson

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Putting solar collectors on roofs MIGHT change the local albedo enough to increase/decrease the urban heat island effect.

Most roofs are pretty dark right now,solar hot water heaters tucson  so I don’t think replacing them with PV collectors would change anything much.   And unless the energy to manufacture and transport the components is “pure” solar, it might also contribute the global CO2 and possible climate changes.  Not too mention any pollutant by-products of manufacture that might be greenhouse gases.

Compared to the CO2 and byproducts of manufacturing conventional power plants? Not to mention their operation. Having lots of low efficiency (low temperature) solar collectors in an area might cause *more* heat pollution than a few high temperature (and high efficiency) fossil fuel heat sources.

I doubt this very seriously.  With PV’s you are dealing with only the incident sunlight.  With conventional power plants, you have the same incident sunlight plus the additional heat created by combustion and work performed by the conventional (or nuclear) fuels.  And if there were a local heating effect from a bunch of hot roofs, they could be insulated and designed to reradiate their heat upward to reduce the effect.  Additionally you could use an IR reflective coating, or if that fails,solar hot water heaters tucson

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However.  Many utilities pay more for their power,solar hot water heaters tucson  and charge much more than this, especially to residential users.  There’s a real possibility that cheaper PV arrays will place a ceiling on utility rates, beyond which they go only at the risk of permanent loss of demand.  It’s possible we could see some utilities entering a “death spiral” of reduced demand leading to higher rates, and ultimately to bankruptcy (cogeneration is another, perhaps more likely, road to this end).

This is an interesting point. This means WE can force solar power (not only PV) to be more competitive by saving energy and doing cogeneration. This will kick the utilities out of the market. [ In germany is a small town which has bought the local power network from the utility and is generating its own energy by using alternative power sources (mainly wind) and more efficient small combined heat/electricity generating power stations.solar hot water heaters tucson

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Solar power, at least at the small scales at which it has been tested,

Solar power is already in use for more than 10 years, especially for warming up water. There are a lot of solar collectors used here in germany. If you mean electricity generated from solar energy (PV or thermal) than you might be right. does indeed reduce some pollutants over the use of fossil energy.

The only pollutants are generated during production.solar hot water heaters tucson  A lot of energy is needed to produce solar cells and this energy is generated by fossile or nuclear power plants. If we can generate a high degree of energy by alternate power sources we can reduce the pollutants drastically! However, the horseless carriage was hailed at the turn of the century as the salvation of the city because of reduced pollution versus the horses then in use. We can't be sure that large areas of solar collectors won't have some adverse effect on the environment in the future. (I am not seriously proposing that this is true, but it is a possibility that must be considered.)

Yes, we don't know the effects of large areas of solar collectors. But we know that in small scale they shouldn't be a problem. Putting solar cells and solar collectors on a roof will not change the global climate!solar hot water heaters tucson

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and you need some kind of storage system to allow the power generated on sunny days to be used at night or on cloudy days.

Nuclear plants like to run at full throttle, so (at least at Diablo Canyon here in California) the excess power is stored by pumping water uphill between resevoirs at different elevations at night. During the day, the stored energy is extracted by running water through turbine generators to augment that produced by the nuclear plant.    solar hot water heaters tucson

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[ some lines deleted ] (1) is clearly false.  In the US (for example) the total amount of sunlight hitting the country in a year exceeds primary energy consumption by a factor of 500.  So,solar hot water heaters tucson with 10% efficient PV cells, and assuming the primary energy is replaced by PV electricity 1 for 1, we’d naively need to cover 2% of the country with collectors.  This is small compared to the area covered by, say, farms.solar hot water heaters tucson  You make it sound like this land is being used for nothing and has no competing demands.

What are the competing demands for roof tops? (Has been mentioned before)                       You also have to remember that less than 100% of the land in a big collector farm would be covered by panels,

Why do we need big collector farms? This sounds like another big technology monster like nuclear power plants (don’t flame me). Why not doing development step by step, by first doing anything possible to conserve energy and then using the areas on roofs for solar energy (collectors and PV). A institute here in germany is currently building a ZERO energy house. This means it doesn’t need any energy in addition to what is generated by the house itself. I know, that’s to expensive currently, solar hot water heaters tucson. That’s unfair! Her is the point were a government should act and “ram it down our throats” by making the environmental bad and unsustainable energies more expensive by taxes and use the money to force alternative energy (solar, wind, biomass, water) into the market. But don’t forget, energy conservation can currently “produce” more energy than any alternative power source in the near future.solar hot water heaters tucson.  I might as well comment on the persistent issue of toxic chemicals in semiconductor manufacturing. Yes, there are a number of things you don’t want to breathe or soak your corns in. No, we don’t put them down the sink. Every day I walk past acres of double-retention holding tanks in which the spent chemicals are segregated by type for purposes of reclamation. Further, there are three dopants generally used in Si circuits – B, P and As. You could get by without As if you had simpler processing. It’s only needed when you have to put down a layer that won’t move through the rest of the processing. You could make solar cells with only B and P which are relatively benign. I’ll reiterate at this point that I am not a responsible spokesperson for my employer.  What is lacking to some extent is large volume, low-cost manufacturing of PVs. There are a few houses in that business and even these find that the best route to profitability is to pursue markets where they can add additional value and run less product. The last thing they want to do is be in a price war; most of them appear to be marginally profitable as it is.  In my opinion the traditional one-cell-per-wafer production method is a dead end. Some companies are already producing continuous sheet PV material. These companies know better than to sell it at Home Depot by the roll; they sell it to OEMs who use it in -their- products.  If you wanted to be a broke humanitarian you could buy some used equipment and run a sloppy wet single-junction, single metal process and make a mess of 10% solar cells and sell them for a buck each.solar hot water heaters tucson

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I’ve always been taught and read that solar power is too inefficient to be used as a power source beyond subsidization of other power.        I’m also aware that it’s quite cost-inefficient. Can anyone change my viewpoint? How about this: 1.  The main material (silicon) is easily available in abundant supply without requiring drilling, strip mining, disposal of toxic waste,solar hot water heaters tucson

Actually, my understanding is that the processing uses some pretty nasty toxic chemicals.  Where did you get your information? What about all of the other materials?  You seem to be focusing in on one small part of the system and one small part of the cost without considering the system as a whole. 2.  Solar cells are indeed cost-inefficient to make at present, but apparently only due to labor-intensive manufacturing methods.solar hot water heaters tucson  There are no fundamentally expensive processes involved.  In particular, the heat required to melt the silicon can be recycled in an efficient manufacturing plant.  Mass production has a wonderful way of reducing the cost of products to the point where packaging, advertising and distribution become the dominent costs.

Is this based on any facts or just your prejudices?  Do you think that running a semiconductor facility is easy?  Cheap? 3.  Who cares if solar power is inefficient if it is free?

Think a bit will ya?  It ISN’T free!  If I gave you a machine that would power your house for a year using only a single drop of water as fuel, would you consider it “free” is the machine wore out after a year and cost a million bucks?  Of course not.  Again, you are focusing in on one tiny aspect of the system (the fuel cost) and ignoring everything else.  Why do you think that efficient use of fuel is so important, while labor, materials, support systems, and capital are unimportant? Solar electricity is NOT free!solar hot water heaters tucson  It’s darned expensive! 4.  The country with cheap energy has a competitive advantage in the world.

Hogwash!  There you go again focusing on a tiny detail and ignoring everything else.  Energy is a resource no different from any other.   Cheap resources, good management, good designs, available capital, high workers productivity, intellectual freedom, and property rights are all important factors in relative economic advantage.  Energy costs are a TINY factor in the bigger picture. All that said, solar power is NOT cheap, so even if your theory were correct, it still wouldn’t apply to solar electricity. 5.  solar hot water heaters tucson

Actually, that kind of useless make-work projects prolonged the depression a few years!  Just think how much more stimulating to the economy all that labor would have been if it had been directed toward the production of goods and serices someone actually wanted and could pay for! In the meanwhile, the country got a terrific network of highways and hydroelectric plants which we all still benefit from.

Do you know what cost-benefit analysis is?  I didn’t think so. I propose a similar program to manufacture solar cells and plaster every roof in the sun belt with them, both to provide jobs and to promote this country’s future.

You sound like Jerry Brown.  Look, where are you going to get all that money? Every dollar you take from someone to pay for this will either be one less dollar invested in the production of real goods and services people want, or it will mean a decrease in demand for products which means less demand for the labor to produce those products. Why not just have a program to put millions of people to work digging holes and filling them in again?  That would “Generate jobs” like crazy!  Wouldn’t it? Do you think that we have a big shortage of electricity today?solar hot water heaters tucson  Do you think we lack peak production capacity?  Remember, rooftop collectors won’t do you any good at night, you you still need to have all those power plants there to work the night shift (that, or you also need to build big energy storage systems which are also very expensive and inefficient. It would require strong government support in terms of tax incentives and outright subsidies, because industry wouldn’t support it (sunlight is free; the technology is public domain; so it’s impossible to maintain a monopoly).

That is simply nonsense.solar hot water heaters tucson  If I had a small cheap device that could produce lots of electricity, there would be hundreds of companies crawling all over one another to market it.  I don’t know what more to say.  Learn some economics and some common sense. Indeed, it would even take some arm twisting to get government to support it since they would lose tax revenue.

Even more nonsense.  The government has been subsidizing solar power projects for years (though I have heard that they have cut back a bit in recent years). The problem with them is that they make no economic sense, and nobody would voluntarily use them for electricity generation. Even if the technology was highly competitive, having it proliferate would NOT decrease government tax revenues!  It would increase them.  Lower operating costs result in higher productivity and MORE tax receipts.  Learn some economics and some common sense. 6.  Plus all the usual benefits of solar energy–reduced pollutants, no global warming gasses,solar hot water heaters tucson

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If you are refering to the Luz plants, note that with the financing available to utilities and no tax breaks, they would produce electricity for about $.12/kWh.

Do they cost more to operate than non-solar gas-burning facilities? If so, why?  If they don’t need to burn as much gas during the day because they’re collecting solar heat, then they should operate more cheaply…  unless their maintainance costs are higher or they cost a lot more to build. — “This coffee is my blood, this breakfast burrito is my flesh.  And  it cost me 89 cents, so get your goddamned own.”solar hot water heaters tucson

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2.  Solar cells are indeed cost-inefficient to make at present, but apparently only due to labor-intensive manufacturing methods.  There are no fundamentally expensive processes involved.  In particular, the heat required to melt the silicon can be recycled in an efficient manufacturing plant.  Mass production has a wonderful way of reducing the cost of products to the point where packaging, advertising and distribution become the dominent costs.

While better manufacturing methods are no doubt possible, the semiconductor industry is already highly automated. Most of the labor is in packaging. 3.solar hot water heaters tucson  Who cares if solar power is inefficient if it is free?

Inefficiency is never free. 4.  The country with cheap energy has a competitive advantage in the world.

See Japan or Europe where high energy costs don’t make them uncompetitive. I agree in spirit with this claim that cheap energy aids competitive position, but it isn’t totally a black and white situation. 5.  The CCC helped to pull the country out of depression in the 30’s. In the meanwhile, the country got a terrific network of highways and hydroelectric plants which we all still benefit from.

Go study depression era economic data again. The US depression was deeper in 1940 than in 1932. It was WWII that pulled the US economy out of the Great Depression.solar hot water heaters tucson  Government programs like CCC may have actually *retarded* a normal economic recovery. For sure they started the US down the road to a trillion dollar debt as ponzi schemes like Social Security have cascaded into the present. I propose a similar program to manufacture solar cells and plaster every roof in the sun belt with them, both to provide jobs and to promote this country’s future.  It would require strong government support in terms of tax incentives and outright subsidies, because industry wouldn’t support it (sunlight is free; the technology is public domain; so it’s impossible to maintain a monopoly).solar hot water heaters tucson  Indeed, it would even take some arm twisting to get government to support it since they would lose tax revenue.

Several points. First, the US economy now employs more people than at any time in US history. Using jobs as a welfare program has never worked. Only jobs that return an economic benefit higher than their cost are of benefit to the nation. No government jobs program has ever met this criteria. Spending government money (IE your money and my money) on an energy source more expensive than other available alternatives is unwise and unsound. The loss of capital to the nation means that every other user of capital will see increased costs.solar hot water heaters tucson  This cascades through the entire economy costing jobs and competitiveness. Finally, the technology as monopoly argument is bogus. Name one major manufactured product in the US that depends on monopoly technology.  Businesses make money by delivering products to people at a price that is more than the cost of production. The difference is called profit. Monopoly is not required to produce a profit. If it were, the oil companies would all be broke since the technologies for digging wells and refining oil are well known and mostly in the public domain. 6.  Plus all the usual benefits of solar energy–reduced pollutants, no global warming gasses, solar hot water heaters tucson

Solar power, at least at the small scales at which it has been tested, does indeed reduce some pollutants over the use of fossil energy. However, the horseless carriage was hailed at the turn of the century as the salvation of the city because of reduced pollution versus the horses then in use. We can’t be sure that large areas of solar collectors won’t have some adverse effect on the environment in the future.solar hot water heaters tucson

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If you are refering to the Luz plants, note that with the financing available to utilities and no tax breaks, they would produce electricity for about $.12/kWh. Do they cost more to operate than non-solar gas-burning facilities? If so, why?  If they don’t need to burn as much gas during the day because they’re collecting solar heat, then they should operate more cheaply…  unless their maintainance costs are higher or they cost a lot more to build.

Right the second time.  Compare the complexity, size and cost of a collector field to that of a gas-fired boiler (or even a gas turbine) of comparable heat rate.  The later SEGS cost about $3000/kW.  A cheap gas turbine costs maybe $500/kW.  They run on natural gas at the SEGS as much as they can (25% of thermal input, limited by the regulations governing their tax breaks).  Natural gas is still pretty cheap, especially in the summer.      solar hot water heaters tucson.  A nudge by the government should be enough to get the ball rolling. Finally, the technology as monopoly argument is bogus. Name one major manufactured product in the US that depends on monopoly technology.  Businesses make money by delivering products to people at a price that is more than the cost of production. The difference is called profit. Monopoly is not required to produce a profit. If it were, the oil companies would all be broke since the technologies for digging wells and refining oil are well known and mostly in the public domain.

However, the government’s policies WRT tax and legislation and leasing of public land has a lot to do with whether a profit is made.  Besides, I was referring to monopolies on a more local scale–the way things stand now, I have no choice but to buy my electric power from the one electric utility that servers me, at a rate I have no control over. However, the horseless carriage was hailed at the turn of the century as the salvation of the city because of reduced pollution versus the horses then in use. We can’t be sure that large areas of solar collectors

Can solar hot water heaters tucson.  Even 10-20% penetration is not chicken feed.   (2) is currently true, to some extent, but the cost/watt can be   reduced without increasing the efficiency at all, simply by finding   ways to make the collectors more cheaply.     It is also necessary to have storage systems to allow people to use electricity   at night, and these multiply the inefficiency and cost. This is only necessary if solar is to take up more than a certain fraction of electricity demand, a fraction that is nowhere near being filled.  Storage is not yet the constraint on PV cell market penetration.  In fact, improved storage would likely *harm* the PV cell market, by allowing baseload powerplants to supply peaking power.   Economies of scale would no   doubt apply to manufacture of collectors as they do to all other   manufactured goods.  DOE estimates that costs will fall 70% for every   tenfold increase in production experience and 40% for each tenfold   increase in annual output.  PV has many profitable niche applications,   and sales are growing about 20%/year in the US.   Economies of scale can help, but can’t necessarily make the product cheap or   economical.  This sounds like wishful thinking to me. No wishful thinking, just analysis of what goes into making PV modules (mostly labor, now), coupled with experience in just about all other industries.   Many people have looked at what can be done via automation as PV cell manufacture gets large enough to justify the investment.  Significant savings are possible. The fact that the PV market is so small no (about 55 MW/year production, worldwide) shows that there is a lot of room to run down that learning curve.   Module efficiency does affect balance of system costs (supports,   installation, etc.)  DOE thinks 15% efficiency is the goal to shoot   for for flat plate collectors.     And then what?  Will PV power be at a break-even relative to coal or nuclear?   Or is that the point at which they think they will be able to ram it   down our throats and accept the economic losses? If you look at the lowest cost coal and nuclear plants, then, no, I don’t think even this is immediately competitive, for the utility, for baseload power, especially if PV is compared to avoided costs (as low as $.01-.02/kWh for coal and nuclear plants).  This ignores capital cost and (for coal) the cost of scrubbing and CO2 emissions (if you want to include that). However.  Many utilities pay more for their power, and charge much more than this, especially to residential users.  There’s a real possibility that cheaper PV arrays will place a ceiling on utility rates, beyond which they go only at the risk of permanent loss of demand.  It’s possible we could see some utilities entering a “death spiral” of reduced demand leading to higher rates, and ultimately to bankruptcy (cogeneration is another, perhaps more likely, road to this end). A datum: in Rochester, NY, users using 25,000 kWh/year are being placed on time of use electric rates.  The rate during the 500-hour summer peak (weekdays, 11am-5pm) is nearly $.24/kWh.  PV systems need not decline in price by very much to be able to beat this price, even in Rochester.         Psolar hot water heaters tucson, note that with the financing available to utilities and no tax breaks, they would produce electricity for about $.12/kWh.  It was uncertainty about extension of the tax breaks that drove them to bankruptcy.  Their product was not competitive without the tax break subsidy, and they needed to keep building new units to maintain enough cash flow to stay in business.         Paul F. Dietz

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I’ve always been taught and read that solar power is too inefficient to be used as a power source beyond subsidization of other power.    I’m also aware that it’s quite cost-inefficient. Can anyone change my viewpoint?

Solar power takes many forms. In the form of passive solar space heating, it is quite cost effective in many climates. In the form of active solar water heating, it’s cost effective in many areas. In the form of food preparation, solar drying and cooking, it’s viable in many areas. In the area of solar electric power, if the power demand is not too great, can stand interruptions, or is far from the grid, then solar photovoltaic generation is viable today. If the demand is for large amounts of power on an uninterrupted basis, at night, then solar electric power is not viable in most cases today. A high capacity solar installation, with adequate storage for nightime and extended overcast periods, is expensive, but, so is the extension of the grid to isolated locations. In most situations sun outages are frequent enough that auxillary backup systems are required. From wood stoves to diesel generators, some backup system is almost always warranted when solar power is contemplated as the primary energy source. Depending on fuel cost, the auxillary may be more cost effective than the primary solar installation in some cases, but there are situations where delivered fuel cost exceeds solar capital cost today. solar hot water heaters tucson

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I’ve always been taught and read that solar power is too inefficient to be used as a power source beyond subsidization of other power.    I’m also aware that it’s quite cost-inefficient. Can anyone change my viewpoint?

How about this: 1.  The main material (silicon) is easily available in abundant supply without requiring drilling, strip mining, disposal of toxic waste, etc. 2.  Solar cells are indeed cost-inefficient to make at present, but apparently only due to labor-intensive manufacturing methods.  There are no fundamentally expensive processes involved.  In particular, the heat required to melt the silicon can be recycled in an efficient manufacturing plant.  Mass production has a wonderful way of reducing the cost of products to the point where packaging, advertising and distribution become the dominent costs. 3.  Who cares if solar power is inefficient if it is free? 4.  The country with cheap energy has a competitive advantage in the world.   5.  The CCC helped to pull the country out of depression in the 30’s. In the meanwhile, the country got a terrific network of highways and hydroelectric plants which we all still benefit from. I propose a similar program to manufacture solar cells and plaster every roof in the sun belt with them, both to provide jobs and to promote this country’s future.  It would require strong government support in terms of tax incentives and outright subsidies, because industry wouldn’t support it (sunlight is free; the technology is public domain; so it’s impossible to maintain a monopoly).  Indeed, it would even take some arm twisting to get government to support it since they would lose tax revenue. 6.  Plus all the usual benefits of solar energy–reduced pollutants, no global warming gasses,solar hot water heaters tucson

Response:

assuming the primary energy is replaced by PV electricity 1 for 1, we’d naively need to cover 2% of the country with collectors. solar hot water heaters tucson. (1) is clearly false.  In the US (for example) the total amount of sunlight hitting the country in a year exceeds primary energy consumption by a factor of 500.  So, with 10% efficient PV cells, and assuming the primary energy is replaced by PV electricity 1 for 1, we’d naively need to cover 2% of the country with collectors.  This is small compared to the area covered by, say, farms. (2) is currently true, to some extent, but the cost/watt can be reduced without increasing the efficiency at all, simply by finding ways to make the collectors more cheaply.  Economies of scale would no doubt apply to manufacture of collectors as they do to all other manufactured goods.  DOE estimates that costs will fall 70% for every tenfold increase in production experience and 40% for each tenfold increase in annual output.  PV has many profitable niche applications, and sales are growing about 20%/year in the US. PV currently costs about $5/W (for modules) and $1-2/W for balance of system costs.  Modules cost will have to fall to $3/W for PV to compete for peaking power and $1/W to compete for bulk power. Module efficiency does affect balance of system costs (supports, installation, etc.)  DOE thinks 15% efficiency is the goal to shoot for for flat plate collectors.      solar hot water heaters tucson

Response:

I’ve always been taught and read that solar power is too inefficient to be used as a power source beyond subsidization of other power.    I’m also aware that it’s quite cost-inefficient.

There are certain limited exceptions, but you are basically correct. Sunlight is a very diffuse resource and collecting it and transmitting it to where it can be used is very expensive.  Certain people have a romantic attachment to the idea thaht blinds them to the facts (say, Al Gore for example). Solar power is OK as an assist for heating water in certain circumstances, but beyond that and powering calculators and remote weather stations, solar power is pretty useless compared to the alternatives. solar hot water heaters tucson

Response:

I’ve always been taught and read that solar power is too inefficient to be used as a power source beyond subsidization of other power.         I’m also aware that it’s quite cost-inefficient. Can anyone change my viewpoint?solar hot water heaters tucson

Response:

I’ve always been taught and read that solar power is too inefficient to be used as a power source beyond subsidization of other power.

This depends on what your application is.  For anywhere in the lower 48,  it is more economical to build a new house to use passive solar than it is to install a new oil, gas or coal furnace and to fuel it for 20 years.  Passive solar conversions would turn a net profit for many existing homes,  but the investment is rather large.         Solar hot water heaters are also gaining in popularity here in New Mexico.  In some neighborhoods,  I’ve noticed that almost half of the houses are so equipped.  As the technology improves,  it becomes more and more practical in less favorable climates.  Solar hot water systems can work in places like Massachusetts,  but the cost of the system is more since one needs a larger,  better-insulated tank to hold over periods with no sun,  and typically more collector area (so you can heat that tank up very quickly when you ~do~ get sun).    I’m also aware that it’s quite cost-inefficient. Can anyone change my viewpoint?

I think that you’re specifically talking about the generation of electricity from solar,  which is still an embryonic technology.  You are partially right about it being inefficient,  but the technology ~is~ improving and has plenty of room to improve.  Existing solar thermal systems that use natural gas backup generate electricity for 8 cents/kWh, whereas TI claims that decentralized applications (potentially rooftop) of it’s Spheral Solar technology can beat 5 cents/kWh,  and I believe that Spheral Solar has about an 8%-10% conversion efficiency,  which is about the same as the photovoltaics you can buy today.  Spheral Solar is very similar in technology to existing PVs,  except for the fact that TI has developed a method of manufacturing that can use less expensive materials.         With more exotic technologies,  such as multi-layered thin films, efficiencies of over 30% have been attained.  There have been recent developments of photovoltaic cells based on somewhat different physics, such as dye-based solar cells,  that could also lead to higher efficiency and lower cost.         Even today,  there are plenty of places where PVs are competitive. Many of them are niche markets,  such as solar calculators,  but for applications far away from power lines (such as highway aid stations here in NM,  street lights in India,  some water pumping applications,  etc.), solar can be very competitive.  I’ve heard that solar becomes competitive with mains electricity if one has to string more than 1,000 feet of wire to attach to the grid. –

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Question:

Does anyone know solar hot water heater you tobe what the per foot capacity of various sized piping is? A friend is running a heat exchanger from his wood stove to the pond and we are trying to determine how much pipe to put in the pond. He did this last winter to keep a small galvanized pool warm enough for hyacynth.

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That’s the sort solar hot water heater you tobe of thing that requires memorizing whole books rather than the memory-bytes that I’m best with.  Vern seems to have the engineering background…

Response:

I’m not sure I understand the question.  Lots of solar hot water heater you tobe variables.  How big is the stove, how big is the heat exchanger and I’m not sure what you mean by square ft.  Pond surface area  I would guess.  If he was successful last year Iw ould suggest he use last year as a guide and change the sizes of things in proportion..   As a wild guess I would think that from most heat exchangers onehalf inch copper would be big enough to carry the water to the pond.  A small circulating pump like used for solar hot water heaters would move the water and I would put about 20 to thirty feet of copper in the pond.  Now I can’t tell you if that much copper in a pond would be bad for the fish or not. If so you need to put about twice as much high temp pvc in the water and still probably use copper for the rest.  Probably lots of other variables like how exposed the pond is etc. vern.

Question:

I have an above ground pool and would like a simple method of using the sun to heat it.  What if I painted the outside of all of the panels black (at least the ones that face the sun? solar hot water heaters pennsylvsnia  They are in direct sun for most of the day, I’m sure they would absorb a bunch of energy, but would there be enough heat transfer inwards through the liner and into the water?solar hot water heaters pennsylvsnia

Response:

I have an above ground pool and would like a simple method of using the sun to heat it.  What if I painted the outside of all of the panels black (at least the ones that face the sun?  They are in direct sun for most of the day, I’m sure they would absorb a bunch of energy,solar hot water heaters pennsylvsnia  but would there be enough heat transfer inwards through the liner and into the water?

… I’m sure there would be some kind of heat transfer. What does it cost to try it? What would you have to lose? Remember to use a pool cover or you’ll just wind up evaporating your water instead of heating it. If the pool cover is black and insulated (like with air bubbled) all the better.solar hot water heaters pennsylvsnia  You might cover the panels with plastic film, plexy, or glass spaced out from the surface a half an inch or so. This would create a ‘greenhouse’ effect and is the same concept used for solar hot water heaters. I suppose it wouldn’t hurt to insulate the sides which don’t get any sunlight (or not much sun) perhaps with slabs of foam insulation like they use in attics. You could probably do with insulating under the pool too but I doubt you want to go through that kind of work.solar hot water heaters pennsylvsnia

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They will lose as much heat at night or more. Insulate the outside, add a solar cover (to save what ever heat you can gain during the day) and if its needed add a solar collecting blanket ($200-400) to the pump circuit and run your filter during the middle of the day. Reducing the loss on the sides will also reduce the heat gain from the sides. Above ground pool have a wider swing in hourly temp then most in ground pools. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have an above ground pool and would like a simple method of using the sun to heat it.solar hot water heaters pennsylvsnia   What if I painted the outside of all of the panels black (at least the ones that face the sun?  They are in direct sun for most of the day, I’m sure they would absorb a bunch of energy, but would there be enough heat transfer inwards through the liner and into the watersolar hot water heaters pennsylvsnia?

Response:

a 100′ black 1 1/2 inch hose to my pump is keeping my pool at 88 F, with no cover. 18′ x 4′ 7500 gallons. NJ — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages – httsolar hot water heaters pennsylvsnia, we borrow it from our children. –

solar hot water heaters pennsylvsnia I have an above ground pool and would like a simple method of using the sun to heat it.  What if I painted the outside of all of the panels black (at least the ones that face the sun?  They are in direct sun for most of the day, I’m sure they would absorb a bunch of energy, but would there be enough heat transfer inwards through the liner and into the water?solar hot water heaters pennsylvsnia

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Question:

Hi,   I’m looking for companies that install Solar Hot Water Heaters in the St. Thomas/London Ontario area. None listed in the Yellow Pages. Visited tannkless solar hot water heaters.ca but the companies listed for this area are no longer in business.   Thanks in advance.tannkless solar hot water heaters

Response:

I’m looking for companies that install Solar Hot Water Heaters in the St.tannkless solar hot water heaters  Thomas/London Ontario area. None listed in the Yellow Pages. Visited http://www.cansia.ca but the companies listed for this area are no longer in business. tannkless solar hot water heaters

Solcan, 126 Wychwood Park  (519) 473-0501 They are in the Sherwood Forest Mall area in northwest London. tannkless solar hot water heaters  I had dealing with them years ago to help a friend. tannkless solar hot water heaters

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Question:

When we were building our house,solar hot water heaters tucson  I hooked up piece of 1″ black plastic pipe about 70 feet long as a collecter. It was laying in the sand on a gentle slope . It connected to the bottom and the side of an old hot water tank. The shower stall and “dressing room” was a piece of black plastic wrapped around some trees with a scrap of plywood on the ground. The shower head and taps were fastened to a board that was nailed to one of the trees. The “plumbing” was two garden hoses. It was a hot summer day, over 30c. (90F) when I hooked it up. Two hours after turning on the cold water, I had the first shower, followed virtually non-stop by 6 other people! It worked so well that I wrapped the tank in 6″ of fiberglass insulation and covered that with plastic vapor barrier tp protect it from the rain. We continued to use that outdoor shower until we were getting frost in the mornings. We only had 2 problems with it.solar hot water heaters tucson  The water was too hot so I had to hook up a cold water line. When I first hooked it up, I used a cheap plastic garden hose on the hot side. It was handy at the time. The water got so hot that under 40 pounds of pressure, the hose turned into a balloon and had to be replaced by rubber hose. Where? you ask . . . north of the 53rd! solar hot water heaters tucson  If you want really inexpensive, just leave a black hose out in the sun- and plumb it into the cold water side of your hot water heater. Or call AAA Solar in New Mexico (look them up on the web) – they sell used commercial panels for a song. I know, I bought a few. Good people to do business with- and be sure to download their catalog- it is  a great resource on all solar-type applications. I have no affiliation with them, by the way- just a satisfied customer. Rick I have been looking at solar hot water heaters, most of the panels have a transperent plastic cover and cost a bundle. I remember reading about black rubber solar water heaters, just a black rubber pad with hoses attached. Does anybody know about these?

Response:

I  am thinking about that, just using a hose.  I get about 110 deg water from my hose left on the driveway in Dec. The problem is that I use the water at night while the water is hot from the hose in the afternoon. When I shut off the city supply there is no water pressure in the house. Should I buy a seperate pump for the discharge of the hot water heater?  Any other ideas? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you want really inexpensive, just leave a black hose out in the sun- and plumb it into the cold water side of your hot water heater. Or call AAA Solar in New Mexico (look them up on the web) – they sell used commercial panels for a song. I know, I bought a few. Good people to do business with- and be sure to download their catalog- it is  a great resource on all solar-type applications. I have no affiliation with them, by the way- just a satisfied customer. Rick I have been looking at solar hot water heaters, most of the panels have a transperent plastic cover and cost a bundle.solar hot water heaters tucson

Response:

I have been looking at solar hot water heaters, most of the panels have a transperent plastic cover and cost a bundle. I remember reading about black rubber solar water heaters,solar hot water heaters tucson  just a black rubber pad with hoses attached. Does anybody know about these?

Response:

If you want really inexpensive,solar hot water heaters tucson  just leave a black hose out in the sun- and plumb it into the cold water side of your hot water heater. Or call AAA Solar in New Mexico (look them up on the web) – they sell used commercial panels for a song. I know, I bought a few. Good people to do business with- and be sure to download their catalog- it is  a great resource on all solar-type applications. I have no affiliation with them, by the way- just a satisfied customersolar hot water heaters tucson

I have been looking at solar hot water heaters,solar hot water heaters tucson  most of the panels have a transperent plastic cover and cost a bundle. I remember reading about black rubber solar water heaters, just a black rubber pad with hoses attached. Does anybody know about these?solar hot water heaters tucson

Response:

Question:

solar hot water heaters otah  Once again with an increase in the cost of electricity to consumers, governments and the media have come out with a new crop of meetings, commissions and broadcasts aimed at cutting consumption. In most places around the world, human habitation tends to be more highly concentrated on seacoasts than elsewhere. Electricity must be shipped to them from dams or produced locally by burning fossil fuels or by nuclear reaction. This requires an expensive outlay in capital for installations and fuel. Much of these costs could be eliminated if the ocean’s tides were used to create electricity. The technology exists to make electricity from the tides for a cost of about 1/20th of what it currently costs. If the tides were used, not only would the price drop dramatically, but also consumption could be increased in heavily inhabited areas without brownouts. Unlike the wind, which is unreliable, the tides are regular and never get turned off. Why have the public and private sectors not gone for tidal power? Ignorance and resistance to change or conservatism are two main reasons. A third is vested interests. The ultimate solution to the power crisis is not reduced consumption. The solution lies in breaking down the walls of ignorance, overcoming the resistance to change and unlocking the strangle hold that vested interests have on the exploitation of this technology. solar hot water heaters otah

Response:

Tidal power would be a good part of the energy supply mix but you should not dismiss reduced consumption, since low energy prices have encouraged needless waste. Malcolm

solar hot water heaters otah Once again with an increase in the cost of electricity to consumers, governments and the media have come out with a new crop of meetings, commissions and broadcasts aimed at cutting consumption. In most places around the world, human habitation tends to be more highly concentrated on seacoasts than elsewhere. Electricity must be shipped to them from dams or produced locally by burning fossil fuels or by nuclear reaction. This requires an expensive outlay in capital for installations and fuel. Much of these costs could be eliminated if the ocean’s tides were used to create electricity. The technology exists to make electricity from the tides for a cost of about 1/20th of what it currently costs. If the tides were used, not only would the price drop dramatically, but also consumption could be increased in heavily inhabited areas without brownouts. Unlike the wind, which is unreliable, the tides are regular and never get turned off. Why have the public and private sectors not gone for tidal power? Ignorance and resistance to change or conservatism are two main reasons. A third is vested interests. The ultimate solution to the power crisis is not reduced consumption. The solution lies in breaking down the walls of ignorance, overcoming the resistance to change and unlocking the strangle hold that vested interests have on the exploitation of this technology.solar hot water heaters otah

Response:

Tidal power would be a good part of the energy supply mix but you should not dismiss reduced consumption, since low energy prices have encouraged needless waste. Malcolm

Wind energy as it comes down in price will encourage further needless waste. M. Simon  Space-Time Productions solar hot water heaters otah

Response:

solar hot water heaters otah  I am not a specialist. In the 1970, my dad showed me an article in his alumni magazine which showed his old faculty lighting up the night with power from a plastic pentstock anchored to the low tide mark on a local beach.  Since then I have occasionally seen articles on the subject. The possibilities are endless. You could have 100 foot long pentstocks every 50 feet for 500 feet with 5 foot turbines inside every five feet. They could be several layers high before there would be much problem with resistance. The closer they would be to a grade the greater the velocity of the ground swell as it came rushing up hill. I have seen windmills in Oregon that were hardly moving and yet elecitricity was being produced. The retreating tide would produce almost as much as the incoming tide, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. One scientist I read said that the tides could produce such an abundance of electricity at such a miniscule price that the economic foundation of the planet would be undermined and that is the reason why it hasn’t been done. The international division of labor would become a joke. Cheers! J. Lewin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tidal power would be a good part of the energy supply mix but you should not dismiss reduced consumption, since low energy prices have encouraged needless waste. Malcolm Wind energy as it comes down in price will encourage further needless waste. M. Simon  Space-Time Productions solar hot water heaters otah

Response:

<snip Much of these costs could be eliminated if the ocean’s tides were used to create electricity. The technology exists to make electricity from the tides for a cost of about 1/20th of what it currently costs.

solar hot water heaters otah  EXACTLY where did you get your cost estimates?  I’d love to see your source for those guestimates.  Until you can show a credible source for these cost estimates, we can’t have meaningful discussion. <snip Why have the public and private sectors not gone for tidal power?

Primarily economic and environmental costs. Ignorance and resistance to change or conservatism are two main reasons. A third is vested interests.

Blah …. Blah …. Blah.  (Horse Pucky!) The ultimate solution to the power crisis is not reduced consumption. The solution lies in breaking down the walls of ignorance, overcoming the resistance to change and unlocking the strangle hold that vested interests have on the exploitation of this technology.

solar hot water heaters otah  In the 1970, my dad showed me an article in his alumni magazine which showed his old faculty lighting up the night with power from a plastic pentstock anchored to the low tide mark on a local beach.  Since then I have occasionally seen articles on the subject. The possibilities are endless. You could have 100 foot long pentstocks every 50 feet for 500 feet with 5 foot turbines inside every five feet. They could be several layers high before there would be much problem with resistance. The closer they would be to a grade the greater the velocity of the ground swell as it came rushing up hill.

What was it you said? …… “I am not a specialist.” My training is in engineering, and I have often seen these situations of wishful thinking by those who do not understand the cost of building, maintaining, and operating equipment and facilities.  I will again ask you to show a credible source for a study on the costs, and then we can discuss it. <snip One scientist I read said that the tides could produce such an abundance of electricity at such a miniscule price that the economic foundation of the planet would be undermined and that is the reason why it hasn’t been done. solar hot water heaters otah  I’ll see what I can come up with. As far as costs go, remember no dam is required to hold back water. All that is needed is a way to secure turbines to the sea shore floor. The scientist’s article that I read did give one numbers example. He said that instead of transporting bauxite from New Caledonia via Pannama and then down the St. Lawrence to be smelted with electricity from the Moses Saunders Dam in Massena NY, ALCOA could build a plant on the Baja Penn and smelt bauxite in Northern Mexico by using tidal produced electricity. Cheers, J. Lewin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you Malcom, I am not a specialist.     Obviously. In the 1970, my dad showed me an article in his alumni magazine which showed his old faculty lighting up the night with power from a plastic pentstock anchored to the low tide mark on a local beach.  Since then I have occasionally seen articles on the subject. The possibilities are endless. You could have 100 foot long pentstocks every 50 feet for 500 feet with 5 foot turbines inside every five feet. They could be several layers high before there would be much problem with resistance. The closer they would be to a grade the greater the velocity of the ground swell as it came rushing up hill.     What was it you said? …… “I am not a specialist.” My training is in engineering, and I have often seen these situations of wishful thinking by those who do not understand the cost of building, maintaining, and operating equipment and facilities.  I will again ask you to show a credible source for a study on the costs, and then we can discuss it. <snip One scientist I read said that the tides could produce such an abundance of electricity at such a miniscule price that the economic foundation of the planet would be undermined and that is the reason why it hasn’t been done. The international division of labor would become a joke.     AND, I suppose he wishes to remain anonymous and NOT come here to discuss the real number basis for his statements?  solar hot water heaters otah , reduced consumption results in reduced cost and reduced environmental impact.  It appears to me that you are simply attempting to justify the “conspicuous consumption” which is so prevalent in the North America today. Regards, George Estep

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Power Crisis! Once again with an increase in the cost of electricity to consumers, governments and the media have come out with a new crop of meetings, commissions and broadcasts aimed at cutting consumption. In most places around the world, human habitation tends to be more highly concentrated on seacoasts than elsewhere. Electricity must be shipped to them from dams or produced locally by burning fossil fuels or by nuclear reaction. This requires an expensive outlay in capital for installations and fuel. Much of these costs could be eliminated if the ocean’s tides were used to create electricity. The technology exists to make electricity from the tides for a cost of about 1/20th of what it currently costs. If the tides were used, not only would the price drop dramatically, but also consumption could be increased in heavily inhabited areas without brownouts. Unlike the wind, which is unreliable, the tides are regular and never get turned off. Why have the public and private sectors not gone for tidal power? Ignorance and resistance to change or conservatism are two main reasons. A third is vested interests. The ultimate solution to the power crisis is not reduced consumption. The solution lies in breaking down the walls of ignorance, overcoming the resistance to change and unlocking the strangle hold that vested interests have on the exploitation of this technology.solar hot water heaters otah

Response:

… ocean’s tides were used to create electricity. J. Lewin Vancouver 01/05/2001

I note that you are in Vancouver, which is also the home of Blue Energy Canada Inc., a  tidal power company. solar hot water heaters otah  Are you connected with them? I saw their display at Earth Day in Calgary last year, and was quite impressed with their information, but have not heard recent reports on their Philippines or other projects.

Response:

solar hot water heaters otah I’ll see what I can come up with. As far as costs go, remember no dam is required to hold back water. All that is needed is a way to secure turbines to the sea shore floor.

solar hot water heaters otah  permittting and getting  social acceptance for the distruction/disturbance of the sea shore will be another trick to pull off. How about maintenace of this puppy with the wave action on the shore? The scientist’s article that I read did give one numbers example. He said that instead of transporting bauxite from New Caledonia via Pannama and then down the St. Lawrence to be smelted with electricity from the Moses Saunders Dam in Massena NY, ALCOA could build a plant on the Baja Penn and smelt bauxite in Northern Mexico by using tidal produced electricity.

Key word in the above statement is “could”…  ”Could” and “doing it” can be two different things. BTW, Kaiser Aluminum (I believe)  has shut down aluminum smelter(s) in the Pacific Northwest (USA), where there “was” cheap hydro power.  They shut down  because they can sell their long term electric contract allotment to power thirsty California and make more money.  Of course, when their long term contract expires in a year or two, then Kaiser Aluminum (or who ever it is) will be totally out of business as far as “those” plants are concerned. Presently, the work force  at those plants are layed off and not making a living or paying taxes or….. Maybe ALCOA is opting for Northern Mexico because of cheaper conventional power generation, where they burn anything and don’t worry about pollution. Yes, pollution is bad, but pollution+jobs is better than no-pollution+no-jobs.  Do we want to live and work like old Mexico?  Where jobs were/are few and far between? Can we all say,  ”BYE-BYE”  to jobs, economy, another business sector moving across the border, tax base, local interstructure improvements and self suff iciency etc?

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solar hot water heaters otah  I have no connection with Blue Energy Canada. That sounds like the perfect name for a stock deal, which is what it probably is if they have their operation in the Phillipines. Don’t forget BreX. I was watching KOMO TV and thought I’d do a little hands across that line that someone drew in the sand with their big toe. J. Lewin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … ocean’s tides were used to create electricity. J. Lewin Vancouver 01/05/2001 I note that you are in Vancouver, which is also the home of Blue Energy Canada Inc., a  tidal power company. solar hot water heaters otah  Are you connected with them? I saw their display at Earth Day in Calgary last year, and was quite impressed with their information, but have not heard recent reports on their Philippines or other projects.

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I’m not an expert on this, either, but when i was at a German technical museum last year, they had pictures of operating tidal power plants, so someone’s doing it already. then they had a display talking about the economics of the plant and according this display, with current technology, there has to be a fairly high tidal differential in order for tidal power to be economically feasible. they had a little map of the world that showed all of the areas of the world’s coasts that were above this threshold — and it wasn’t very much of the world, unfortunately. i wish i could find this display online, but i had no luck when i went looking for it. the museum is in munich (it’s like the german smithsonian) and it rocked.solar hot water heaters otah  I have no connection with Blue Energy Canada. That sounds like the perfect name for a stock deal, which is what it probably is if they have their operation in the Phillipines. Don’t forget BreX. I was watching KOMO TV and thought I’d do a little hands across that line that someone drew in the sand with their big toe. J. Lewin … ocean’s tides were used to create electricity. J. Lewin Vancouver 01/05/2001 I note that you are in Vancouver, which is also the home of Blue Energy Canada Inc., a  tidal power company.solar hot water heaters otah  Are you connected with them? I saw their display at Earth Day in Calgary last year, and was quite impressed with their information, but have not heard recent reports on their Philippines or other projects.

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Tidal power would be a good part of the energy supply mix but you should not dismiss reduced consumption, since low energy prices have encouraged needless waste. Malcolm Wind energy as it comes down in price will encourage further needless

waste. I think the key element in the transition from hard energy to soft energy is the change in consciousness that goes hand in hand with the transformation. In hard energy consciousness, we produce TerraWatts of energy, sending these over the grid to consumers. In soft energy, low end energy is created and stored. Instead of being plugged into “endless” amounts of available electricity, consumers will be creating and storing their power. This shifts the way one thinks about power, away from the idea of huge amounts being available just for the asking, and towards one of creating and storing, which causes one to use thier capacity a little more wisely. solar hot water heaters otah

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solar hot water heaters otah  I think the key element in the transition from hard energy to soft energy is the change in consciousness that goes hand in hand with the transformation. In hard energy consciousness, we produce TerraWatts of energy, sending these over the grid to consumers. In soft energy, low end energy is created and stored. Instead of being plugged into “endless” amounts of available electricity, consumers will be creating and storing their power. This shifts the way one thinks about power, away from the idea of huge amounts being available just for the asking, and towards one of creating and storing, which causes one to use thier capacity a little more wisely.

You can also raise the price of conventional generated electricty or your  ”hard” energy to a point where people will flinch when they tap into that endless supply of this kind of  energy. Thye will change their ways and use it more “wisely”.  Are you suggesting that with your “soft” (Renewable) energy that “everyone” should put out their OWN PV/wind generating facilities AND install their OWN bank of batteries for storage?  That would kind of force allot of people to become qualified and experienced electricians.  How about meeting NEC regulation standards with this setup?  How about regulating the installation/maintenance/disposal of all those 100’s of tons of hazmat lead-acid batteries?   Finally, what do you suggest about powering businesses, gov agencies, public buildings/facilities, etc?  Everything beyond the walls of a private home?solar hot water heaters otah

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Are you suggesting that with your “soft” (Renewable) energy that “everyone” should put out their OWN PV/wind generating facilities AND install their OWN bank of batteries for storage? solar hot water heaters otah

If you think about the way that power works for us on a daily basis, for lights and appliances, most power in the home are objects that can or do run on low voltage energy. Radios, lights, small and non-motorized appliances, even most of the electronics in your television set, power has to be stepped down to a lower voltage range. So we are producing Megawatts to be able to send kilowatts over long distances to supply homes with appliances that are running on low voltages, power having to be stepped down in these different stages. Most of this energy would not have to be created in the first place if homes and businesses were wired as independent home energy producers plugged into the utility grid. A minimal system with an appropriatley sized storage in all buildings could reduce the huge waste that our centralized systems seem to entail. Remember, the most efficient power plant, because of engineering principles limiting the efficiency of engines known as Carnot’s law, can only be 30 to 33% efficient. That means that a coal or oil fired power plant loses two thirds of its energy before it produces any electricity. It would just make more sense to produce a whole lot less energy over a decentralized system. That would kind of force allot of people to become qualified and experienced electricians.solar hot water heaters otah   How about meeting NEC regulation standards with this setup?

I believe that there is a community in Scandanavia somewhere that is putting together an integrated grid of indepenent power producers. It does not require any more expertese by the laymen than other power facilities. How about regulating the installation/maintenance/disposal of all those 100’s of tons of hazmat lead-acid batteries?

On the scale I’m talking about, I guess that would be on the order of hundreds of millions of tons, wouldn’t it? I don’t see how these kind of problems would be any worse than the ones we are dealing with by our present centralized power manufacture. Pumping oil out of the ground creates the most toxic substances known to exist on the planet, as a natural by product of the process. Millions of tons of benzene and other harmful substances. Mining creates a horrible waste-water problem with the putrid sludge its operation entails. And don’t get me started on the nuclear power generated wastes, problems that will have to be dealt with for the next 250,000 years in one way or another, if not by us, at least by the planet and whatever is left of it. Compared to the problems we are now facing, these don’t seem like problems at all, only characteristics of the design set. Finally, what do you suggest about powering businesses, gov agencies, public buildings/facilities, etc?  Everything beyond the walls of a private home?

Low end independent power production on all sites plugged into the decentralized grid. PV panels and solar hot water heaters on bus stops billboards. Earlier in the century,  big cities like Indianapolis produced free steam heat for businesses and residents alike. It was a natural by product of industrial processes, utilized in an appropriate and responcible manner, I think. Couldn’t we do that today, with solar water heat combined with industrial heat waste used co-generatively? Of course we could. Lots of things could be transferred from electricity to steampowered, reducing our electric demands even further. solar hot water heaters otah

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Are you suggesting that with your “soft” (Renewable) energy that “everyone” should put out their OWN PV/wind generating facilities AND install their OWN bank of batteries for storage? If you think about the way that power works for us on a daily basis, for lights and appliances, most power in the home are objects that can or do run on low voltage energy. Radios, lights, small and non-motorized

appliances, Remember, the most efficient power plant, because of engineering principles limiting the efficiency of engines known as Carnot’s law, can only be 30 to 33% efficient. That means that a coal or oil fired power plant loses two thirds of its energy before it produces any electricity. It would just make more sense to produce a whole lot less energy over a decentralized

system. Ahem. If a nearby process plant needs to pre-heat some “cold” feedstock on a large scale, then it can use the waste heat from the thermal power plant, and voila, overall efficiency is dramatically improved. I expect many power plants in North America have such symbiotic relationships with other industries. If not, then there is a fantastic business opportunity for ambitious industrialists out there. In fact, some thermal power plants were located in the city center, such that the waste heat was piped around to be used in the heating season by homes, offices, etc. Have you seen any of the converted coal plant buildings in London?solar hot water heaters otah

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solar hot water heaters otah If a nearby process plant needs to pre-heat some “cold” feedstock on a large scale, then it can use the waste heat from the thermal power plant, and voila, overall efficiency is dramatically improved. I expect many power plants in North America have such symbiotic relationships with other industries. If not, then there is a fantastic business opportunity for ambitious industrialists out there. In fact, some thermal power plants were located in the city center, such that the waste heat was piped around to be used in the heating season by homes, offices, etc. Have you seen any of the converted coal plant buildings in London? Alas, the new power plants are located safely away from sight…..

Fuels have become so cheap that few industries can be bothered to operate co-gen plant for themselves never mind link with other industries. An energy tax on fossil fuels may be effective in encouraging better efficiency. solar hot water heaters otah  If a nearby process plant needs to pre-heat some “cold” feedstock on a large scale, then it can use the waste heat from the thermal power plant, and voila, overall efficiency is dramatically improved. I expect many power plants in North America have such symbiotic relationships with other industries. If not, then there is a fantastic business opportunity for ambitious industrialists out there. In fact, some thermal power plants were located in the city center, such that the waste heat was piped around to be used in the heating season by homes, offices, etc. Have you seen any of the converted coal plant buildings in London? Alas, the new power plants are located safely away from sight…..

Good God, the general public doesn’t want a powerplant located anywhere near them. Let alone locating one in the heart of a city. Unsightly I guess.. Majority of generation capacity power plants are either nuclear or coal powered… Would be nice however, if numerous business could utilize the wasted heat from a generation plant. Fuels have become so cheap that few industries can be bothered to operate co-gen plant for themselves never mind link with other industries.

Hmmmm, business usually look for ways to decrease their cost while increasing their profits.  I would think if there was a feasible means for co-gen, then the two business would do it.  An energy tax on fossil fuels may be effective in encouraging better efficiency.

I would think taxes are basically passed onto the consumer.solar hot water heaters otah

Response:

Are you suggesting that with your “soft” (Renewable) energy that “everyone” should put out their OWN PV/wind generating facilities AND install their OWN bank of batteries for storage? If you think about the way that power works for us on a daily basis, for lights and appliances, most power in the home are objects that can or do run on low voltage energy. Radios, lights, small and non-motorized appliances, even most of the electronics in your television set, power has to be stepped down to a lower voltage range.

Amazing how all those “little” appliances, such as TV’s coffee pots, cloths driers, cooking ranges, AC, heating fans, and computers add up to a whopping power load.  So we are producing Megawatts to be able to send kilowatts over long distances to supply homes with appliances that are running on low voltages, power having to be stepped down in these different stages.

Do you know why power generation/transmission companies step up the volts before sending it down the line?  Do you know the difference between “kilowatts and Megawatts? Most of this energy would not have to be created in the first place if homes and businesses were wired as independent home energy producers plugged into the utility grid.

Takes more than “wired” for homes and  businesses to generate electricy.  A minimal system with an appropriatley sized storage in all buildings could reduce the huge waste that our centralized systems seem to entail. Remember, the most efficient power plant, because of engineering principles limiting the efficiency of engines known as Carnot’s law, can only be 30 to 33% efficient. That means that a coal or oil fired power plant loses two thirds of its energy before it produces any electricity. It would just make more sense to produce a whole lot less energy over a decentralized

system. would, if you could do it in a cost effect way…. That would kind of force allot of people to become qualified and experienced electricians.  How about meeting NEC regulation standards with this setup? I believe that there is a community in Scandanavia somewhere that is putting together an integrated grid of indepenent power producers. It does not require any more expertese by the laymen than other power facilities.

When you find out more exact details of that Scandanavia community, let us know.  Saying a village full of idots could run a power plant? Don’t answer that. Sometimes I wonder myself. How about regulating the installation/maintenance/disposal of all those 100’s of tons of hazmat lead-acid batteries? On the scale I’m talking about, I guess that would be on the order of hundreds of millions of tons, wouldn’t it? I don’t see how these kind of problems would be any worse than the ones we are dealing with by our present centralized power manufacture.

Don’t know about 100’s of millions of tons of lead-acid batteries but it sure would be a lot.  Anyway, lead-acid batteries are already considered hazmat material by EPA and all businesses must follow strict handling/disposal laws dealing with such.. I would expect private citizens to follow these same strict regulations.. What is the difference?  Pumping oil out of the ground creates the most toxic substances known to exist on the planet, as a natural by product of the process. Millions of tons of benzene and other harmful

substances. OK, do you use petroleum products?  Use plastics that are derived from Petroleum?… So what is you point?  Eliminate petroleum drilling,refining, manufacturing, and usage? Mining creates a horrible waste-water problem with the putrid sludge its operation entails.

Showing your lack of knowledge here.  Want to eliminate mining?  Of course, mine processes can be further refined (cleaned up)  and the processes made cleaner, but that would take more money, prices would increase and could the consumer afford it?  A standard ol community generates more waste and harmfull runoff than modern mines….. So if that is true, shouldn’t communities/cities be eliminated or at least brought up to the same enviromental compliance standards that mines have to follow?  And don’t get me started on the nuclear power generated wastes, problems that will have to be dealt with for the next 250,000 years in one way or another, if not by us, at least by the planet and whatever is left of it.

Kind of agree with you here.. Question:  If you had to choose between nuclear generation and constant, unpredictable, uncontrollable blackouts, worldwide, which would you choose?  Compared to the problems we are now facing, these don’t seem – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – like problems at all, only characteristics of the design set. Finally, what do you suggest about powering businesses, gov agencies, public buildings/facilities, etc?  Everything beyond the walls of a private home? Low end independent power production on all sites plugged into the decentralized grid. PV panels and solar hot water heaters on bus stops billboards. Earlier in the century,  big cities like Indianapolis produced free steam heat for businesses and residents alike. It was a natural by product of industrial processes, utilized in an appropriate and responcible manner, I think. Couldn’t we do that today, with solar water heat combined with industrial heat waste used co-generatively? Of course we could.

Not if you outlaw the useage of fossil fuels and the electricy generated by such… Don’t forget nuclear energy too. You would need one hell of a lot of PV panels/windmills to power the industrial sector of the USA. (Presuming the elimination of fossil fuel useage) Lots of things could be transferred from electricity to steampowered, reducing our electric demands even further.

Say what?  What fuels generates the majority of the electricity in the USA and the world?  Above, you bashed these items and wanted to eliminate them.  Now, what fuels am I referring too? solar hot water heaters otah

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nightbat wrote               The California power crisis is based on deregulation, poor planning, bad electrical load management, and market forces. Our system is self regulating, and big Government is always there to bale out the Hollywood millionaires, even though they did away with welfare for the poor. You should be tying up user net worrying about millionaires and movie stars having brownouts, since when do they worry about the poor finding decent wage supporting jobs or being able to pay their bills? This newsgroup is about energy renewable, not energy stupidity.           the nightbat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tidal power would be a good part of the energy supply mix but you should not dismiss reduced consumption, since low energy prices have encouraged needless waste. Malcolm Wind energy as it comes down in price will encourage further needless waste. I think the key element in the transition from hard energy to soft energy is the change in consciousness that goes hand in hand with the transformation. In hard energy consciousness, we produce TerraWatts of energy, sending these over the grid to consumers. In soft energy, low end energy is created and stored. Instead of being plugged into “endless” amounts of available electricity, consumers will be creating and storing their power. This shifts the way one thinks about power, away from the idea of huge amounts being available just for the asking, and towards one of creating and storing, which causes one to use thier capacity a little more wisely.solar hot water heaters otah

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An energy tax on fossil fuels may be effective in encouraging better efficiency. I would think taxes are basically passed onto the consumer.

Of course but people including businesses hate taxes. This could be just the incentive to stimulate them into switching from fossil. solar hot water heaters otah

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An energy tax on fossil fuels may be effective in encouraging better efficiency. I would think taxes are basically passed onto the consumer. Of course but people including businesses hate taxes. This could be just the incentive to stimulate them into switching from fossil. Malcolm

Artificially raising the cost of fossil fuel generation (by taxation or other means)  would most certainly stimulate RE production… A person could just shut down (which is happening via all the enviromental laws) fossil fueled plants and get the same results…. Lets see how California will handle the lack of conventional power… Ya think PV/wind will step in and solve all problems? solar hot water heaters otah

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solar hot water heaters otah  An energy tax on fossil fuels may be effective in encouraging better efficiency. I would think taxes are basically passed onto the consumer. Of course but people including businesses hate taxes. This could be just the incentive to stimulate them into switching from fossil. Malcolm Artificially raising the cost of fossil fuel generation (by taxation or other means)  would most certainly stimulate RE production… A person could just shut down (which is happening via all the enviromental laws) fossil fueled plants and get the same results…. Lets see how California will handle the lack of conventional power… Ya think PV/wind will step in and solve all problems?

I’m not an advocate of PV for mainstream generation at current prices.  I believe we should be using lots of generation methods with a bias towards renewables.  I think there should be a carrot and stick approach to efficiency both in generation(to encourage wind, hydro and co-gen) and consumption(to encourage insulation, flourescents and just plain turning it off). solar hot water heaters otah

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Yes!!!  The rock has been rolled away from the cave!!!  The nightbat swoops out to spread the quano of his wisdom.  How long is your visit this time, bela? Got any Joe Cells to sell in Hollywood?

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Ya think PV/wind will step in and solve all problems?

So, Condomman,solar hot water heaters otah  if an individual finds a solution for his own problems, you believe he’s responsible for solving all problems?   solar hot water heaters otah

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