Question:

Sometime this summer I hope to begin building solar water heater energy savings some log cabins at our = children=B9s farm camp. I would like include some solar energy features in = these cabins. = One system I am interested in is a solar water heater, to be used both = for heating water for baths and also possibly providing warmth in = certain parts of the house during the day or to a hot tub, etc.  = I would like to use long coils of black hose as the primary collector. = The problem is that in a cold climate, we are in NE Poland,  the water = can freeze in the pipes during the winter. Most systems compensate for = this by an elaborate and expensive dual (alcohol-water) system or an = expensive insulated glass system. I would like to do with with a simpler = system, and my idea is to place the absorption coils inside the house, = in a sera (glass sun porch) attached to the south end of the house. The = porch would not be heated as thoroughly as the rest of the house, just = keep above freezing during the winter, unless the sun warmes it further.  = Another idea is to use as the primary heat absorbing coils, a black = plastic hose that could handle the expansion that would occur when the = water froze. In this case, only the pump would have to be protected from = freezing by keeping it indoors. = Further, I would like to pump the water in this system with a low = voltage water pump that could be connected directly to a set of solar = cells without any intervening battery. After all there is no sense = pumping water when there is no sun. Does such a pump exist?  Finally, is there any reason why the system shouldn=B9t drain from the = collector coils whenever the system shuts down, thereby providing = further protection from freezing? Using one, or a combination of these ideas, I would hope to be able to = construct a very inexpensive system. Can anyone suggest how much and what kind of hose would be required for = such a system? Are there solar water heater energy savings charts available for calculating this? Can anyone recommend a good book on this subject? Is there anyone who has any experience with this sort of system. What = problems might you foresee? And does anyone know of a pump that could be = driven directly from solar cells without intervening batteries or = electronics? Finally, is there an FAQ for this group? Any comments would be appreciated. Dale

Response:

One system solar water heater energy savings I am interested in is a solar water heater, to be used both = for heating water for baths and also possibly providing warmth in = certain parts of the house during the day or to a hot tub, etc. = Generally, it is very difficult to space heat from active solar

heating since the solar energy supply ( daytime & summer ) is out of phase of the demand ( nightime & winter ). Whereas it is striaght- forward to supply domestic hot water since the heat can be stored easily and the demand is more in phase with supply. I have fitted space-heating from solar water heating but only as excess heat-dumps for drying clothes which automatically cut in when the solar store reaches 70 C. I would like to use long coils of black hose as the primary collector. = A similar principle is used by a few commercial manufacturers in the

U.K. for swimming pools. However an unglazed collector is only suitable for sub 30 C. water temperatures and become wildly ineffecient at normal domestic bath temperatures. These are mainly direct systems and occasionally of the drain-back type. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The problem is that in a cold climate, we are in solar water heater energy savings NE Poland,  the water = can freeze in the pipes during the winter. Most systems compensate for = this by an elaborate and expensive dual (alcohol-water) system or an = expensive insulated glass system. I would like to do with with a simpler = system, and my idea is to place the absorption coils inside the house, = in a sera (glass sun porch) attached to the south end of the house. The = porch would not be heated as thoroughly as the rest of the house, just = keep above freezing during the winter, unless the sun warmes it further.  =

Technical problems here may include any flexible pipes collapsing from negative pressure if a pump is used depending on hight levels. Also how are you supporting the pipes and at what inclination to the horizon. If horizontal, you will need a glass roof to get realistic performance. Another idea is to use as the primary heat absorbing coils, a black = plastic hose that could handle the expansion that would occur when the = water froze. In this case, only the pump would have to be solar water heater energy savings protected from = freezing by keeping it indoors. =

Interesting, but if you have a pumped system there may be problems with part freezing during a thaw. The pump may try to operate with a blocked pipe. Further, I would like to pump the water in this system with a low = voltage water pump that could be solar water heater energy savings connected directly to a set of solar = cells without any intervening battery. After all there is no sense = pumping water when there is no sun. Does such a pump exist?

Certainly does .  German manufacture, 5 Watt consumption , Impedance matched for direct operation from a PV module.

Question:

A couple of blinders solar energy hot water heater often appear in eyes of energy analysts and casual commentators. Because of these information vacuums, little rational analysis can be achieved because the entire planning model is skewed to support the dominant paradigm: coal, oil, nuclear, natural gas:centralized energy. 1. Embodied Energy, true, should be taken into account when one calculates the real environmental and economic costs of copper, aluminum and glass in solar DHW or other solar systems. I have not seen any authoritative analysis comparing the EE of on-site decentralized renewable energy systems vs. the cost to consumer, govt and most important- to the environment- of heating power plants to 6000-100000 deg. F. to provide 68-120 deg. heat and water – with govt. subsidies added (AKA *corporate welfare).* 2. Scientists and govt. bureaucrats alike pay little attention to the public subsidies to large centralized privately owned utilites that are guaranteed profit monopolies which is why they historically have been considered conservative stable investments (except for the biggest financial bond debacle in US history: WPPPS nuclear plants). 3. No realistic storage of nuclear waste has been identified- nor will it be found, IMO. The cost of decommissioning nuclear plants and waste storage is another starry eyed miscalculation of those who designed and authorized their construction. 4. Most important solar energy hot water heater in all this is the fact that OVER AND OVER again in benefit-cost analyses of environmental impacts of large central plants – the effects on the environment are often foot-noted as not being able to be calculated. (Thanks to the gang that left out Gaia in their energy planning.) I have seen this footnote not only in the OR Dept. of Energy reports in the last decade but in other govt. analyses. I recall David McDaniels, physicist, a decade ago at the U of Oregon, Eugene, who reported that investment in a solar water heater was more economical than money in a bank. Oregon is still fortunate to have in place an improved renewable energy personal income tax credit which I initiated and which Howdie Reichmuth authored. Govt incentives can play a big role in implementing and delaying technology transfer.  When govts understand their responsibility is not to the large corporate polluters but to public health and the environment, life cycle costing will be scientifically calculated and financially amortized to show that conservation and on-site solar are the inevitable winding roads down the soft energy path. Lastly, no integrated study has been done of sunspaces, attached greenhouses, correctly designed with climate, in conjunction with the calculation savings derived from production of year round growing of organic food possible in these simple spaces. If this simple study had been done, there would be a lot more health and light in people*s lives. Have you considered that your average food item travels 1000 miles? and that the lack of fresh food in our diets is no doubt one cause of cancer? IMO one of the tragic consequences of science has been the lack of integrated system analysis. We need energy, we need food – why did we not put them together? I recall years ago at a Solar Energy Assn. of OR conference a Portland private utility spokesperson reported that of the 5 houses they had monitored that had solar sunpaces AND increased conservation, that the addition of the attached sunspace decreased electricity consumption another 50%. A lack of vision and down home common sense has led to the collective we living in rather uninteresting and often depressing homes instead of houses into which the sun has been collected, stored and distributed. As Bruce Anderson said: Life in a solar home is the highest quality of life imaginable (The Solar Home Book). The missing link in the energy planning formulas of scientists and *crats has been this neglect of the sun and of surveys of energy consumers who for the last decade have repeatedly favored solar over other energy sources – and repeatedly been denied because of the lack of public incentives, govt planning and societal inertia caused by weird science. You the scientists are to blame. solar energy hot water heater…. Re-orienting mineral, vegetable, animal and information KINDOMS, Kathy Ging,M.A.,Realtor;Secretary, NW Eco-Building Guild, Eugene Chapter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Free, unlimited, and non-polluting are very good attributes, indeed, but are no substitute for engineering numbers. What percentage of our total energy consumption is in heating hot water and living space? What is the capital cost of using this solar energy? (Capital cost is the annual interest and amortization of the equipment and it must be compared to the capital cost plus fuel cost of fuelled equipment.) What is the relative cost and savings of merely insulating walls and pipes? Without comparative numbers, we have only starry eyes. But I do sympathize!

Response:

I have not seen any solar energy hot water heater authoritative analysis comparing : the EE of on-site decentralized renewable energy systems : vs. the cost to consumer, govt and most important- : to the environment- of heating power plants to 6000-100000 deg. : F. to provide 68-120 deg. heat and water – with govt. : subsidies added (AKA *corporate welfare).* 6000 – 100000 F?!? She must be talking about those new fusion plants : : 3. No realistic storage of nuclear waste has been identified- : nor will it be found, IMO. The cost of decommissioning nuclear : plants and waste storage is another starry eyed miscalculation : of those who designed and authorized their construction. And how many lifetimes have you spent studying the “problem” of nuclear “waste”?  Perhaps you’d care to detail why, in your opinion, the solution will never be found?  Where do you suggest we “store” the millions of tons toxic waste produced annually?  Never mind, it’s already taken care of – Gaia.  Once again, nuclear “waste” is singled out, which it should be since all the spent fuel is currently contained and monitored.  Nuclear power, unlike many other industries, is currently funding and researching solutions to “problems” (waste storage, decommissioning).   : : 4. Most important in all this is the fact that : OVER AND OVER again in benefit-cost analyses of environmental impacts of : large central plants – the effects on the environment are : often foot-noted as not being able to be calculated. (Thanks : to the gang that left out Gaia in their energy planning.) : I have seen this footnote not only in the OR Dept. of Energy : reports in the last decade but in other govt. analyses. Perhaps you’d care to read the Final Safety Ananlysis Report and Evironmental Impact Statement for a commercial nuclear power plant, they are much more than a footnote. : : I recall David McDaniels, physicist, a decade ago at the : U of Oregon, Eugene, who reported that investment in a solar : water heater was more economical than money in a bank. Oregon : is still fortunate to have in place an improved renewable energy : personal income tax credit which I initiated and which Howdie : Reichmuth authored. Tax credit for renewable energy?  Isn’t that like *welfare*, you can’t have it both ways.  (Well you can but that’s a different group : You the scientists are to blame. (:-(…. : Re-orienting mineral, vegetable, animal and information KINDOMS, : Kathy Ging,M.A.,Realtor;Secretary, NW Eco-Building Guild, Eugene Chapter We “the scientists” are also to blame for roughly doubling the life expectancy in the last 100 years, among a few other things, like the computer you typed your message on  If we get the blame, we should get the credit. Sorry to nitpick, you brought up some valid points.  Maybe us number crunchers should have taken a few more liberal arts classes. tooie

Response:

A couple of blinders often appear in eyes of solar energy hot water heater energy analysts and casual commentators. Because of these information vacuums, little rational analysis can be achieved because the entire planning model is skewed to support the dominant paradigm: coal, oil, nuclear, natural gas:centralized energy. 1. Embodied Energy, true, should be taken into account when one calculates the real environmental and economic costs of copper, aluminum and glass in solar DHW or other solar systems.

Is the Embodied Energy concept you proposes the sum of the energy used for manufacture, maintainance and disposal or conversion to useful raw materials to be reused? If it is so it sounds useful, any energy source with a small negative net energy gain should be avoided. I have not seen any authoritative analysis comparing the EE of on-site decentralized renewable energy systems vs. the cost to consumer, govt and most important- to the environment- of heating power plants to 6000-100000 deg. F. to provide 68-120 deg. heat and water – with govt. subsidies added (AKA *corporate welfare).*

6000 – 100 000 degrees F? You are taking numbers out of thin air. Such temperatures vaporises anything. This indicates that you might not know what you are talking about in depth. And what is the connection between high boiler temperature and bad total economy? Usual boilers with gas turbines get more efficient with higher steam temperatures but the equipment wears faster at highet temperatures so that puts an economic limit to the temperatures. Nuclear powerplants are run less efficient at a lower temperature to increase the margins. And you have to analyze the whole system, as your posting proposes. In Sweden almost all large or medium sized towns has central heating plants that distributes 95-105 deg. C water with a slight preassure to heat exchangers in the individual houses wheer they heat hot water and solar energy hot water heater water for space heating.  It is a large capital investment but the overall economy is good and the centralised powerplant is more efficient then many small boilers. Manny often also co-generates electricity and heat for better economy. They are often run on a mix of biomass, coal, garbage, oil, and sometimes surplus electricity. 2. Scientists and govt. bureaucrats alike pay little attention to the public subsidies to large centralized privately owned utilites that are guaranteed profit monopolies which is why they historically have been considered conservative stable investments (except for the biggest financial bond debacle in US history: WPPPS nuclear plants).

I thout the problem in USA was the monopoly and bizzare laws regarding how utilities can set their tarrifs. They seem to be unable to fun money for making large capital investments. That must hinder how they can build large projects like nuclear powerplants and solar powerplants. 3. No realistic storage of nuclear waste has been identified- nor will it be found, IMO. The cost of decommissioning nuclear plants and waste storage is another starry eyed miscalculation of those who designed and authorized their construction.

Depends on how safe safe solar energy hot water heater enough needs to be for you. There are proposals that puts future generations and the worlds species to a far smaller risk then the residue from fossil powerplants.  And a lot of the waste could be reused as fuel if the newer ideas and designs were fully developed. 4. Most important in all this is the fact that OVER AND OVER again in benefit-cost analyses of environmental impacts of large central plants – the effects on the environment are often foot-noted as not being able to be calculated. (Thanks to the gang that left out Gaia in their energy planning.) I have seen this footnote not only in the OR Dept. of Energy reports in the last decade but in other govt. analyses.

The impact on our environment should allways be accounted for! I recall David McDaniels, physicist, a decade ago at the U of Oregon, Eugene, who reported that investment in a solar water heater was more economical than money in a bank. Oregon is still fortunate to have in place an improved renewable energy personal income tax credit which I initiated and which Howdie Reichmuth authored.

I dont know anything about your local conditions. Solar space heating dosent make much sense in Sweden but we have another climate. Govt incentives can play a big role in implementing and delaying technology transfer. When govts understand their responsibility is not to the large corporate polluters but to public health and the environment, life cycle costing will be scientifically calculated and financially amortized to show that conservation and on-site solar are the inevitable winding roads down the soft energy path.

You can start with these solar energy hot water heater calculations _right_now_. You could even make them public on the web so that people can see, critisize and fill in on the source material. Dont wait for the government, do it right now. And dont be sure that the calculations are favorable for your idea. It migh well be so that larger centralized powerplants are better for the environment and costs less when all is summed up. And if it is so you dont have to give up or tweak the truth. You only have to motivate people to build your ideas since they give other benefits that some enjoy, like gardening or a set of buildinbg styles that might be appealing. Lastly, no integrated study has been done of sunspaces, attached greenhouses, correctly designed with climate, in conjunction with the calculation savings derived from production of year round growing of organic food possible in these simple spaces.

What are you waiting for? It would be intresting for everybody with gardening as a hobby. (Growing organic food is only valuble for a small part of the population but it is a fine hobby. ) If this simple study had been done, there would be a lot more health and light in people*s lives.

Its not their fault people are solar energy hot water heater not gardening as much as they could if they wanted to. Thats is too a simple excuse. Have you considered that your average food item travels 1000 miles? and that the lack of fresh food in our diets is no doubt one cause of cancer? IMO one of the tragic consequences of science has been the lack of integrated system analysis. We need energy, we need food – why did we not put them together?

How much time do the transports take? The luck and perhaps problem is that transportation is cheap. (That has also eradicated famine in all parts of the world with a working economy. )  Your proposal is a very good one if people wants to use lots of time on it. I recall years ago at a Solar Energy Assn. of OR conference a Portland private utility spokesperson reported that of the 5 houses they had monitored that had solar sunpaces AND increased conservation, that the addition of the attached sunspace decreased electricity consumption another 50%.

Sounds good, pulish it with references. A lack of vision and down home common sense has led to the collective we living in rather uninteresting and often depressing homes instead of houses into which the sun has been collected, stored and distributed.

That is not the only way solar energy hot water heater to build houses with a nice architecture. As Bruce Anderson said: Life in a solar home is the highest quality of life imaginable (The Solar Home Book). The missing link in the energy planning formulas of scientists and *crats has been this neglect of the sun and of surveys of energy consumers who for the last decade have repeatedly favored solar over other energy sources – and repeatedly been denied because of the solar energy hot water heater lack of public incentives, govt planning and societal inertia caused by weird science.

No people seems to lack the personal energy to create all this nice stuff. You the scientists are to blame.

There is a swedish saying that roughly translates to: Get your fingers out of your bum. Its not the scientists fault something is stuck… Btw, what has the word “gaia” to do with this?

Question:

So, do you know how the washer/dryer stacked combo rated?red hot solar energy water heater  We are looking at the Maytag because of the small area of our laundry room.

The Maytag Neptune MLE2000AY(W) was rated “VG” by CR. “Capable and efficient. Among the best at handling unbalanced loads. Stainless steel tub angled for easier access”. Candide “The truth is rarely pure and never simple” Oscar Wilde

Response:

You’d go with solar even though the research indicates gas is less expensive red hot solar energy water heater? He said electricity, not gas.

Does he have gas available?  I don’t. -v.

Response:

I live in the UK and most washing machines sold are front loaders.red hot solar energy water heater   I load mine in the evening and set a timer so that it washes the clothes during the night using cheaper electricity. red hot solar energy water heater  I do the same with the dishwasher.  I use concentrated washing powder and just use half a cup per load of laundry – works fine.red hot solar energy water heater  I don’t use a tumble dryer. red hot solar energy water heater  If I can’t get the laundry dry by hanging it outdoors I hang it on airers inside the house till it dries. I hadn’t really thought about top loaders using a lot more water than front loaders.red hot solar energy water heater   My front loader takes around an hour to do a load of laundry so maybe what you would save in water by using a top loader you would spend in electricity by using a front loader. — — *..