Selling energy to tankless solar hot water heaters power companies
Question:
It used to tankless solar hot water heaters be that you could sell excess energy that you generated to power companies. Can you still do this, and how do you go about it? tankless solar hot water heaters
Response:
The 1978 Public Utility Regulatory Policy Act (PURPA) tankless solar hot water heaters requires all utilities to buy energy from independent producers. However, the pay the very low wholesale (avoided cost) rate. 23 states have net metering laws which require utilities to pay the same rate to small PV energy producers (usually under 10 kW systems) or spin their existing meter backwards (but not below zero). Some utilities in other states allow PV net metering for residential systems. For information about how to do this see my article in the latest issue of Home Power magazine at homepower.com.tankless solar hot water heaters It used to be that you could sell excess energy that you generated to power companies. Can you still do this, and how do you go about it? tankless solar hot water heaters
Response:
23 states have net metering laws which require utilities to pay the same rate to small PV energy producers (usually under 10 kW systems) or spin their existing meter backwards (but not below zero). Some utilities in other states allow PV net metering for residential systems. tankless solar hot water heaters
If you can’t run your meter below zero, then how can you sell your excess energy? tankless solar hot water heaters
Response:
I know of one net metered PV system that received a one month credit expressed as a tankless solar hot water heaters minus number ($7.10). The system did not produce excess energy in later months. The utility billing computer probably saw it as a one-time credit. One can only speculate how long it would take before the utility noticed regular negative bills. In California starting 1/1/99 utilities must credit customers with net metered PV systems annually. California utilities are also prohibited from charging net metered PV customers for special meters. If the utility wants to see production and consumption separately, the utility must get the customer’s consent, must pay the expense for additional metering and may only use the information for research purposes subject to privacy laws. These changes in the net metering law make it possible for people to roll excess summer PV production into winter billing and take control of their on-site solar energy production. Also included in the new law are the inclusion of commercial net metering for systems up to 10 kW and property tax exemption for solar systems. AB1755 is a good model for PV people in other states to adopt. Look at http://www.energy.ca.gov/ for more information. Selling power to a utility requires an interconnection agreement and an energy production (Standard Offer) contract. These 100 plus page contracts are written for industrial and commercial customers with on-site co-generation (i.e. natural gas powered back-up generators). PV net metering agreements are typically 4 pages or less. I know of no net metered PV systems that produce excess energy. The costs involved in getting a Standard Offer contract, the value of the excess energy and people’s unwillingness to privately pay for more PV energy then they privately consume are some of the reasons. Most grid-tied residential PV systems produce only a portion of the load. If PV systems cost half their current price and annual net metering was universal, lots of people would install larger systems and produce all of their energy. Interestingly, when utilities understand grid tied PV systems, they “see” them as load conservation devices that reduce the electric bill. However, if you do not want to interact with your utility and still want PV, tankless solar hot water heatersyou can install a stand-by system that feeds dedicated loads in a separate subpanel but is isolated from the grid (except possibly for supplemental battery charging). For more information see my system wiring diagram in the latest issue of Home Power magazine at homepower.com. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 23 states have net metering laws which require utilities to pay the same rate to small PV energy producers (usually under 10 kW systems) or spin their existing meter backwards (but not below zero). Some utilities in other states allow PV net metering for residential systems. For information about how to do this see my article in the latest issue of Home Power magazine at homepower.com. If you can’t run your meter below zero, then how can you sell your excess energy?
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I was thinking more in terms of purchasing a fuel cell, and using methane from a biomass reactor to make electricity. I’ve heard methane can be used in fuel cells. There’s loads of biomass (leaves, lawn clippings, brush debris and wood chips and such) that people are just aching to get rid of. Landscapers sometimes have difficulty getting rid of it when they cart it off in their trucks. It would be nice to harness this energy source at no cost to the environment. Connecticut has a law which requires a certain percentage of Connecticut’s power to be produced using alternative sources by a certain time period. I don’t remember the details, but there has been a lot of talk about fuel cells in our state. tankless solar hot water heaters I know of one net metered PV system that received a one month credit expressed as a minus number ($7.10). The system did not produce excess energy in later months. The utility billing computer probably saw it as a one-time credit. One can only speculate how long it would take before the utility noticed regular negative bills. In California starting 1/1/99 utilities must credit customers with net metered PV systems annually. California utilities are also prohibited from charging net metered PV customers for special meters. If the utility wants to see production and consumption separately, the utility must get the customer’s consent, must pay the expense for additional metering and may only use the information for research purposes subject to privacy laws. These changes in the net metering law make it possible for people to roll excess summer PV production into winter billing and take control of their on-site solar energy production. Also included in the new law are the inclusion of commercial net metering for systems up to 10 kW and property tax exemption for solar systems. AB1755 is a good model for PV people in other states to adopt. Look at http://www.energy.ca.gov/ for more information. Selling power to a utility requires an interconnection agreement and an energy production (Standard Offer) contract. These 100 plus page contracts are written for industrial and commercial customers with on-site co-generation (i.e. natural gas powered back-up generators). PV net metering agreements are typically 4 pages or less. I know of no net metered PV systems that produce excess energy. The costs involved in getting a Standard Offer contract, the value of the excess energy and people’s unwillingness to privately pay for more PV energy then they privately consume are some of the reasons. Most grid-tied residential PV systems produce only a portion of the load. If PV systems cost half their current price and annual net metering was universal, lots of people would install larger systems and produce all of their energy. Interestingly, when utilities understand grid tied PV systems, they “see” them as load conservation devices that reduce the electric bill. However, if you do not want to interact with your utility and still want PV, you can install a stand-by system that feeds dedicated loads in a separate subpanel but is isolated from the grid (except possibly for supplemental battery charging). For more information see my system wiring diagram in the latest issue of Home Power magazine at homepower.com. 23 states have net metering laws which require utilities to pay the same rate to small PV energy producers (usually under 10 kW systems) or spin their existing meter backwards (but not below zero). Some utilities in other states allow PV net metering for residential systems. For information about how to do this see my article in the latest issue of Home Power magazine at homepower.com. If you can’t run your meter below zero, then how can you sell your excess energy? tankless solar hot water heaters
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Thank you Becca for referring me to William Lord’s great web site that describes his net metered PV powered home in Maine with surplus solar energy. http://solstice.crest.org/renewables/wlord/index.html Impressive design work by PV pioneers Steve Strong and Peter Talmage. Thank you Tom Starrs and everyone who worked hard to bring annual net metering to Central Maine Power utility. -tankless solar hot water heaters- I was thinking more in terms of purchasing a fuel cell, and using methane from a biomass reactor to make electricity. I’ve heard methane can be used in fuel cells. There’s loads of biomass (leaves, lawn clippings, brush debris and wood chips and such) that people are just aching to get rid of. Landscapers sometimes have difficulty getting rid of it when they cart it off in their trucks. It would be nice to harness this energy source at no cost to the environment. Connecticut has a law which requires a certain percentage of Connecticut’s power to be produced using alternative sources by a certain time period. I don’t remember the details, but there has been a lot of talk about fuel cells in our state. I know of one net metered PV system that received a one month credit expressed as a minus number ($7.10). The system did not produce excess energy in later months. The utility billing computer probably saw it as a one-time credit. One can only speculate how long it would take before the utility noticed regular negative bills. In California starting 1/1/99 utilities must credit customers with net metered PV systems annually. California utilities are also prohibited from charging net metered PV customers for special meters. If the utility wants to see production and consumption separately, the utility must get the customer’s consent, must pay the expense for additional metering and may only use the information for research purposes subject to privacy laws. These changes in the net metering law make it possible for people to roll excess summer PV production into winter billing and take control of their on-site solar energy production. Also included in the new law are the inclusion of commercial net metering for systems up to 10 kW and property tax exemption for solar systems. AB1755 is a good model for PV people in other states to adopt. Look at http://www.energy.ca.gov/ for more information. Selling power to a utility requires an interconnection agreement and an energy production (Standard Offer) contract. These 100 plus page contracts are written for industrial and commercial customers with on-site co-generation (i.e. natural gas powered back-up generators). PV net metering agreements are typically 4 pages or less. I know of no net metered PV systems that produce excess energy.tankless solar hot water heaters The costs involved in getting a Standard Offer contract, the value of the excess energy and people’s unwillingness to privately pay for more PV energy then they privately consume are some of the reasons. Most grid-tied residential PV systems produce only a portion of the load. If PV systems cost half their current price and annual net metering was universal, lots of people would install larger systems and produce all of their energy. Interestingly, when utilities understand grid tied PV systems, they “see” them as load conservation devices that reduce the electric bill. However, if you do not want to interact with your utility and still want PV, you can install a stand-by system that feeds dedicated loads in a separate subpanel but is isolated from the grid (except possibly for supplemental battery charging). For more information see my system wiring diagram in the latest issue of Home Power magazine at homepower.com. 23 states have net metering laws which require utilities to pay the same rate to small PV energy producers (usually under 10 kW systems) or spin their existing meter backwards (but not below zero). Some utilities in other states allow PV net metering for residential systems. For information about how to do this see my article in the latest issue of Home Power magazine at homepower.com. If you can’t run your meter below zero, then how can you sell your excess energy?tankless solar hot water heaters
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Another FWIW, I checked with TVA about doing this here in Tennessee, from a small hydro I had at the time. They replied that they didn’t need any power, they were burning off excess in resistors to load their plant. Not believing this, I visited the Rock Island, TN plant, and saw it for myself. Once, TVA complained about excess usage and asked people to conserve. People did, and were rewarded with a rate increase. (My opinion)—If RE came online in large scale, the Electric Comrades would jack up the rates. Of course, despite our relatively low rates, TVA is just another government cluster . Just a thought…remove “1″ from my email to flame. tankless solar hot water heaters
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They replied that they didn’t need any power, they were burning off excess in resistors to load their plant. Not believing this, I visited the Rock Island, TN plant, and saw it for myself. this is hard to believe-even for government- Any utility produces only what its load (plus losses)demands. No more, no less. No utility will burn coal to produce excess power to waste in resistors. In a hydro system the same is true – use the water as required for demand- If not needed, leave it in the reservoir where it is “stored” for future use. If the reservoir is at capacity- then spill it- done if necessary, and reluctantly as it is literally pouring money down the drain. I think you were being fed a line- any resistors present could be there for another purpose- what did they look like? How big? tankless solar hot water heaters
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Post shrugs off net metering and suggests anything short of utility independence is ideologically impure and should be shunned. When compared to simultaneous-buy-and-sell, net metering is the difference between about $0.03/kWh and about $0.10 per kWh to the PV owner, which over the life of a system aggregates to $1400 or more per installed kW, roughly 20% of the system cost. The savings over a ratcheted meter system is less, $400 over the life of the system. The idea that the utility should have this money instead of the homeowner is hard to understand. One of the beauties of PV is its modularity. Like a family, you don’t have to have it all at once. You can start small, and add as your earning power, experience, and market savvy grow. The idea that all PV owners must all adopt a single lifestyle, pass a supreme test of goodness, sign up to the one true way is unique, un-American, and not particularly helpful to anything that I can think of. Let Smith put up 500 W or a thermal collector to heat his pool. Hurray for Jones for installing 3kW on his roof and tying into the utility. The Brown family fears four digit numbers ending with three zeros, and can afford the extra 3 grand to install a battery bank and controls. More power to them. Miller sends her power company an extra $10 a month to recieve half her energy from renewable sources, good for her. Old McDonald electrifies his fence and waters his cattle using PV and wind, moo for him. Alternative energy utilities already exist, and more are coming. They use existing poles, lines, transformers, and switchgear instead of installing redundant systems at an economic loss to themselves and their customers. Are they a “they” or a “we”? How many PV users have to tie to the grid before the grid beomes a “we” instead of a “they”? I don’t mind if my neighbor uses the road when I’m not using it. He can use my PV electricity when I’m not using it, too, but I want him to pay me, and I don’t want to install lines to get it over to his house. If some third party can make a profit by providing transmission services to my neighbor and me, God bless free enterprise. If some fourth party wants to start installing poles and lines and offer me a cheaper transmission charge, I will listen. tankless solar hot water heaters
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this is hard to believe-even for government- Any utility produces only what its load (plus losses)demands. No more, no less. No utility will burn coal to produce excess power to waste in resistors. In a hydro system the same is true – use the water as required for demand- If not needed, leave it in the reservoir where it is “stored” for future use. If the reservoir is at capacity- then spill it- done if necessary, and reluctantly as it is literally pouring money down the drain. I think you were being fed a line- any resistors present could be there for another purpose- what did they look like? How big? tankless solar hot water heaters
I can understand your reluctance to believe it…I didn’t believe it myself. How big? Freakin HUGE. In a metal sheltered enclosure (top only). Fan-Cooled with many-horsepower fan units. Looked like Dynamic Braking resistors for a large DC Drive, except bigger. Making enough heat to heat the Superdome. Regardless of their purpose, all that dissipated power is coming from somewhere…. Tell you what… I’ll call the dudes up and see if they still do this and why and post the results. Back when this happened (1978) the utils were reluctant to talk with you about this and it is entirely possible that they were shitting me. tankless solar hot water heaters
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tankless solar hot water heaters I can understand your reluctance to believe it…I didn’t believe it myself. How big? Freakin HUGE. In a metal sheltered enclosure (top only). Fan-Cooled with many-horsepower fan units. Looked like Dynamic Braking resistors for a large DC Drive, except bigger. Making enough heat to heat the Superdome. Regardless of their purpose, all that dissipated power is coming from somewhere…. Tell you what… I’ll call the dudes up and see if they still do this and why and post the results. Back when this happened (1978) the utils were reluctant to talk with you about this and it is entirely possible that they were shitting me. tankless solar hot water heaters
I believe what Steve says. In my college days, while attending a thermodynamics class, we went on a field trip to a power plant that supplied power to a good portion of LA. I think it had at least 5 generators, running full bore. The personnel said that during the night when the demand was light, and the power grid couldn’t take any more, the excess power was “dumped” to keep the generators from running away. The boilers output could not be throttled back to compensate for the reduced load. To me the interesting thing was, to shut down a boiler it took power or it could/would explode. In an emergency/disaster, if the grid failed and they couldn’t get power to shutdown in an orderly fashion, they always had a turbine generator, running full bore. The thing was huge, about one hundred feet long, and the noise was deafening. In some hydroelectric plants at night, they use the excess power to pump back the water to the reservoir, in that way they maintain more/or less of a constant load while also replenishing the reservoir. FWIW
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I never understood the hullabaloo over net metering. It’s hard enough to generate enough power for the average home, never mind excess power. The financial advantage to those who do sell back surplus power is minimal. Yes I know the guys in Maine give it away, a generous act, but compared to alternative power capital costs, they would be giving it away anyway. The small advantage to net metering is to avoid the need for batteries. But, the lack of batteries takes away the principle advantage of home power: self sufficiency.
Net metering is one practical way to use PV. Some PV pioneers have little interest in net metering or utility companies. However, most Americans are not pioneers. They are connected to the grid and show greater interest in PV when they feel that PV is “just like utility power.” Who is better equipped to make PV look like utility power than a utility company? Many existing residential and small commercial PV systems are not 100% solar and require a backup source (gen set or grid). Net metering may be preferable to a gen set. Some people are initially not interested in having batteries until they have a power outage and see the benefit of on-site energy storage. Net metering perpetuates the role of the utility company into the alternative power domain. IMO, the utilities have shown themselves to be bad stewards of public power.
The people who operate your neighborhood utility are your neighbors. Think locally and act locally. Why make them partners in the alternative energy domain? They’re not interested, and the benefit to the homeowner is minimal. I suggest it is better to develop an alternate source of home power, and simply walk away from the utility. All they’re really interested in is the large user, let them cater to the factories and malls. Why give the utility power over your life just when you’ve made yourself independent from them.
Independence, freedom, liberty. These words have different meanings to different people. Thoreau best expressed my feelings in the last paragraph of his essay on Civil Disobedience. “The authority of government, even such as I am willing to submit to…” Autonomous or stand-alone PV systems do not make people independent. PV just shifts your dependence to different people. I think the effort used in getting the utilities to cooperate in alternative energy is misplaced. It continues to concentrate control, if not power generation, in the hands of the utility. I say it’s better to develop dispersed power sources completely independent of the utility. Let’s break their monopoly not perpetuate it.
Some of us want to see widespread use of PV. Widespread use of PV means getting utilities and their customers involved. Most people can understand the benefits of PV distributed generation if it is explained to them properly. Distributed generation provides the means for greater individual freedom. Hang in there. Things are getting better, but there’s still a lot of work to be done. tankless solar hot water heaters Vs lbh pna ernq guvf lbh ernyyl bhtug gb trg bhg zber
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Are there any utility company workers in this user group? How can excess capacity be efficiently used? What’s the idle load of a residence? How many people empty their refrigerator and shut it off when the go away from home for a few days?tankless solar hot water heaters I can understand your reluctance to believe it…I didn’t believe it myself. How big? Freakin HUGE. In a metal sheltered enclosure (top only). Fan-Cooled with many-horsepower fan units. Looked like Dynamic Braking resistors for a large DC Drive, except bigger. Making enough heat to heat the Superdome. Regardless of their purpose, all that dissipated power is coming from somewhere…. Tell you what… I’ll call the dudes up and see if they still do this and why and post the results. Back when this happened (1978) the utils were reluctant to talk with you about this and it is entirely possible that they were shitting me. Steve I believe what Steve says. In my college days, while attending a thermodynamics class, we went on a field trip to a power plant that supplied power to a good portion of LA. I think it had at least 5 generators, running full bore. The personnel said that during the night when the demand was light, and the power grid couldn’t take any more, the excess power was “dumped” to keep the generators from running away. The boilers output could not be throttled back to compensate for the reduced load. To me the interesting thing was, to shut down a boiler it took power or it could/would explode. In an emergency/disaster, if the grid failed and they couldn’t get power to shutdown in an orderly fashion, they always had a turbine generator, running full bore. The thing was huge, about one hundred feet long, and the noise was deafening. In some hydroelectric plants at night, they use the excess power to pump back the water to the reservoir, in that way they maintain more/or less of a constant load while also replenishing the reservoir. FWIW
Response:
power to a good portion of LA. I think it had at least 5 generators, running full bore. The personnel said that during the night when the demand was light, and the power grid couldn’t take any more, the excess power was “dumped” to keep the generators from running away. The boilers output could not be throttled back to compensate for the reduced load.
It is true that there is a minimum safe load on a boiler- particularly coal fired where flame instability can occur- leading to a boiler explosion. With gas fired boilers this is not a problem. In a multi-plant system- there should be no need to produce and dump energy – A unit may be run at minimum load but the total system load would be in excess of the sum of the minimum load capabilities of all the generating units. If the load was otherwise, some generation would be shut down. I can see some very unusual circumstances where routine dumping of energy could occur- an example is the case where the period of time was short and the cost of dumping was less than the cost of shutdown/startup. Possible but in a system which is well planned, this is unlikely. Economic dispatch and unit allocation principles are used to allocate the load between plants and determine which are shut down . To me the interesting thing was, to shut down a boiler it took power or it could/would explode. In an emergency/disaster, if the grid failed and they couldn’t get power to shutdown in an orderly fashion, they always had a turbine generator, running full bore.
Any thermal plant requires power- about 10-15% of the gross generation is used for “in-plant ” use- feedwater pumps, etc. If the system load is lost, yes the units will accelerate- generation is then reduced- Resistors have been used to help do this- i.e. to help maintain stability. In severe conditions, the flame is cut off and power is needed to keep the feedwater pumps going- excess steam can be vented. This is not the same as dumping energy on a continuous basis. A turbo-generator at full load will sound the same as one at light load. In some hydroelectric plants at night, they use the excess power to pump back the water to the reservoir, in that way they maintain more/or less of a constant load while also replenishing the reservoir. FWIW
Such pumped storage is commonly done- the decision to do this is based on economics- not on any technical restrictions. If you have low fuel cost plant with excess capability, it is reasonable to use this to pump. The energy is then available for use at peak periods where the alternative peaking plant has high fuel costs. Usually the hydro unit is dedicated to this operation, with its pumping energy coming from other hydro, nuclear or low fuel cost coal units. i.e. if pump cost is $1/MWH and pump/gen efficiency is 75% the effective cost of the generated power from the unit is $1.33/MWH at a time when alternate sources may be $5.00 to $15.00/MWH. In Germany there is a pumped air plant- Gas turbine – compression of air is done off peak and this air is used during peak times- Again the reason is economic, not technical. tankless solar hot water heaters
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How can excess capacity be efficiently used One way is to not use it- generate what is needed. Economically, it is best to load each generator to its most efficient point. This is not generally possible so load is shared between generators to get the lowest incremental cost/Kw. Dumping energy into resistors is not cost effective. Some plant, particularly nuclear, likes a steady load- Use for base load- that part of the load which is always present. Plant wiht higher fuel cost and lower capital coost can handle the variable part of the load. tankless solar hot water heaters
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If you exclude utility companies from PV, you exclude over 95% of Americans because they will likely continue to access their electricity from utility companies. In every country where utilities have become active in PV, private sector PV businesses have sold more PV thanks to increased public interest created by utility publicity. The current debate about utility involvement in PV reminds me of the debate 20 years ago about oil company involvement in PV. Oil companies have done more to reduce the cost of PV and promote the technology to the general public than their all their detractors. Many anti-establishment people can thank Arco, Amoco and Exxon for making the PV modules they bought and use. In 1986 I said, “PV is more than a technology. It is a focal point for people who are optimistic and believe in the future.” Twelve years and over 800 megawatts of PV later the vast majority of people involved in PV continue to share my optimism. Does anyone care to say where we will be with PV in 12 years? I venture to say your predictions depend on whether you think your battery is half empty or half full.tankless solar hot water heatersx-no-archive: yes The idea that the utility should have this money instead of the homeowner is hard to understand. The idea is to buy a battery and use the power later. I don’t mind if my neighbor uses the road when I’m not using it. ’ I never said I was against sharing, I’m all for it. I’m against putting the utility company into the alternative energy business. It’s not in their interest, and their participation will only obscure and obfuscate efforts towards energy independence. Consider the following hypothetical situation. Suppose you put up a solar panel on a fixed mount. Your best interest is to align it with the noon sun for maximum insolation. The utility’s best interest is to align it with the evening sun, when the system draw is highest. Now suppose the utility company is in the AE business, and you ask them to install the panels, which way do you think they will point them? God bless free enterprise. No problem there, my problem is with a regulated monopoly that is insulated from the financial effects of their bad decisions, e.g., stranded nuclear costs. I’m not trying to be ideologically pure, far from it. It seems to me simple common sense not to involve a utility that is against AE when you are trying to initiate AE. You’ll waste all your effort arguing at rate hearings, when such effort could be better spent showing your neighbor how to set up a solar thermal collector. -tankless solar hot water heaters
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Thank you Tom Starrs and everyone who worked hard to bring annual net metering to Central Maine Power utility.
Question: What would they do if someone generates much more power than he needs (about 1 Million kWh per months) and claims for metering and pay-out of the rest? I never understood the hullabaloo over net metering. It’s hard enough to generate enough power for the average home, never mind excess power. The financial advantage to those who do sell back surplus power is minimal. Yes I know the guys in Maine give it away, a generous act, but compared to alternative power capital costs, they would be giving it away anyway. The small advantage to net metering is to avoid the need for batteries. But, the lack of batteries takes away the principle advantage of home power: self sufficiency. Net metering perpetuates the role of the utility company into the alternative power domain. IMO, the utilities have shown themselves to be bad stewards of public power.
Same over here Why make them partners in the alternative energy domain? They’re not interested, and the benefit to the homeowner is minimal. I suggest it is better to develop an alternate source of home power, and simply walk away from the utility. All they’re really interested in is the large user, let them cater to the factories and malls. Why give the utility power over your life just when you’ve made yourself independent from them. I think the effort used in getting the utilities to cooperate in alternative energy is misplaced. It continues to concentrate control, if not power generation, in the hands of the utility. I say it’s better to develop dispersed power sources completely independent of the utility. Let’s break their monopoly not perpetuate it.
Well, to break the monopoly, there is a little more required than to be self-sufficient. To be self-sufficient and produce power economically, you would need more than just one home to feed with power. You would need a large, combined alternative power-system running on wind, bio-gas, solar etc. As the required capital is quite large, you would need to form an “alternative power company” who supports the homes of the owners. In the web-sites of the DoE I found sayings that they would subsidize wind-power systems with 20%. I further heard rumors that there is some tax-exemption on alternative power systems. Neverthless, you will have excess power sometimes and sometimes you will have a lack of power. To really be self-sufficient, you would need a pumped storage hydro-power plant. Some data: a good 15 MW wind-power plant (latest technology) will produce electric power with cost of less than US$ 0,045 per kWh if you have an installation site with average wind-speed of 11 m/sec (24,6 mph) or more. The 4,5 ct cited include all and any cost, means the systems, cost for erection of systems, cost for service, rental charges for the site, capital cost, operation cost of the company, and last but not least a little profit. —— I am living in an area where lots and lots of wind-power systems are installed – Friesland – in the north of Germany. In a 10 mile circle around my home, I was counting about 80 wind-power systems with a total power capacity of at least 15 MW. It is fun to hear that you have the same problems with utility companies in the US as we had and – somehow – still have in Germany. However, to support the alternative energy industry, a law was made about 10 years ago, that the utility companies 1. must buy any energy produced by alternative sources (wind, solar ..) fed into the grid if it is grid quality. 2. every year a rate is set which is quite high compared to generation cost in TN or coal-fired plants. This rate is derived by a formula set forth in a.m. law and is based on certain statistical data published by the federal statistics office. The rate of 1997 was DM 0,172 (US$ 0,1036) and the one of 1998 was DM 0,165 (US$ 0,0994) means not much lower. For comparison purposes: power generation cost at the Biblis TN plant: abt. $ 0,01 and at the coal-fired plant at Wilhelmshaven: abt $ 0,005. It is quite understandable that the utility companies didn’t like to pay for power they don’t generate themselves. Funny enough, at the same time some ultra-ecologists showed up and started a new club against “spoiling the horizon” with wind-power-systems. This club is the richest ecologist non-profit organization around. Guess who pays them? Wilhelm
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Another FWIW, I checked with TVA about doing this here in Tennessee, from a small hydro I had at the time. They replied that they didn’t need any power, they were burning off excess in resistors to load their plant. Not believing this, I visited the Rock Island, TN plant, and saw it for myself.
Note 1 – Once, TVA complained about excess usage and asked people to conserve. People did, and were rewarded with a rate increase. (My opinion)—If RE came online in large scale, the Electric Comrades would jack up the rates.
Note 2 – Of course, despite our relatively low rates, TVA is just another government cluster .
Note 3 – Just a thought…remove “1″ from my email to flame. Steve
1: Seems to be that they do not know the very old trick with the “pumped storage hydropower system” – I don’t believe that. They showed you some garbage. I don’t know how much energy Rock Island produces at minimum power output, but it is still a lot. Lets guess it is 0,5 MWh – which is not much. Just imagine how big the resistor needs to be to burn that and how big the cooling tower needs to be to burn 1,7 Million BTU!!! 2: They do – over here they offered to public the options to be supplied with 30% or 50% or 75% or 100% RE power at increased rates. 3: How much?tankless solar hot water heaters
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In Southern California, residential customers can ask for 50% or 100% renewable energy. If I remember correctly, the 100% renewable energy would cost an extra $210 a year, based on 600 kWh per month total usage.
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Post suggests PV may account for 50% of home power in 12 years. If I misunderstood, and post means 50% of market for those who choose to go off grid (and not 50% of all homes), please disregard following. Nobody wants to see home PV more than I do, but the sad truth is many homes face the wrong way, many homes are heavily shaded, many people live in homes (rowhomes) with insufficient roofspace/strength to support adequate amounts of PV. My pipedream is to see large commerical flat-roofed buildings with low energy demands (warehouses, truck terminals, etc. next time you fly, look at the window for ten minutes before landing) serve as “solar utility” sites. Existing switchgear, transformers, etc will displace some of installation cost. Liberterians, anarchists, free love advocates, South Park fans, people from Idaho, and anybody in John Wahne’s family tree, please DO NOT READ THE FOLLOWING!!! The government can support these “solar utilities” by allowing favorable pollution credits to the building owners and/or utility shareholders. I would even try to get the Sierra Club, Greenpeace, and those guys to put their considerable money where they mouths are and pitch in with an inverter at each site, or something like that. Customers can become shareholders by buying the PV modules (or contributing to a wholesale purchase pool), and letting the “utility” install them at the commecial site. Oh, yeah, and peace on earth, too.
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In reference to your dream, my dream is for all of you to read a book called ” A GOLDEN THREAD” by Ken Butti i think. 2500 years of solar architecture. isbn/issn 0442440050. This book is a real eye opener as to what history, the world, and we have accomplished with solar power. Being raised in Florida, I had vague memories or roof panels, but until i read this book I was unaware that almost 1/2 of south Florida used solar water heaters in 1947 ! All over this country, even Chicago, there were commercial businesses with huge roof mounted solar collectors. Then POOF, cheap oil and we went to electric and gas. What a loss. THIS IS A MUST READ for anyone who cares. ben – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -My pipedream is to see large commerical flat-roofed buildings with low energy demands (warehouses, truck terminals, etc. next time you fly, look at the window for ten minutes before landing) serve as “solar utility” sites. Existing switchgear, transformers, etc will displace some of installation cost. Liberterians, anarchists, free love advocates, South Park fans, people from Idaho, and anybody in John Wahne’s family tree, please DO NOT READ THE FOLLOWING!!! The government can support these “solar utilities” by allowing favorable pollution credits to the building owners and/or utility shareholders. I would even try to get the Sierra Club, Greenpeace, and those guys to put their considerable money where they mouths are and pitch in with an inverter at each site, or something like that. Customers can become shareholders by buying the PV modules (or contributing to a wholesale purchase pool), and letting the “utility” install them at the commecial site. Oh, yeah, and peace on earth, too.
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Which, as I recall, is a ripoff. They are counting hydro (ie Boulder Dam) as renewable. But, California is the same state that passed legislation to give a 10% rebate on power bills, and then added 11.43% to the power bill to pay for that….tankless solar hot water heatersIn Southern California, residential customers can ask for 50% or 100% renewable energy. If I remember correctly, the 100% renewable energy would cost an extra $210 a year, based on 600 kWh per month total usage.
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Now that the generation market is a competitive one, new plants have been proposed to replace the old coal fired plants. Most, if not all, are natural gas fired plants that produce energy at a much lower cost than nuclear, and with much less pollution than coal plants. One wonders why the utilities were so convinced nuclear was the most efficient when, for companies with their own real money at risk, natural gas plants appear to be the most efficient.
When the nuclear plants were built, it was illegal to build natural gas plants. tankless solar hot water heaters
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8% to 12% of the housing stock in North America are site suitable for solar (please don’t ask me to dig up the several studies and surveys made over the decades). Right now it is cost effective to put PV (grid connect or standby) on 30 year mortgage residential new construction. A growing number of tech-oriented homeowners with computers and a growing concern about reliable, quality electricity will spur more PV if lending institutions make PV easy to buy (like buying a car or doing a home remodel). I suggest each of you who do not have PV, call your nearest licensed solar electric contractors and get quotations with financing. Document your efforts. If it is easy and affordable, go solar and post your success story. If not, send the info to me. I will (1) not cut out the local guy; (2) contact the unhelpful parties and get their side of the story; (3) not stop until barriers to widespread PV are torn down. Happy New Year. Joel Davidson. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Post suggests PV may account for 50% of home power in 12 years. If I misunderstood, and post means 50% of market for those who choose to go off grid (and not 50% of all homes), please disregard following. Nobody wants to see home PV more than I do, but the sad truth is many homes face the wrong way, many homes are heavily shaded, many people live in homes (rowhomes) with insufficient roofspace/strength to support adequate amounts of PV. My pipedream is to see large commerical flat-roofed buildings with low energy demands (warehouses, truck terminals, etc. next time you fly, look at the window for ten minutes before landing) serve as “solar utility” sites. Existing switchgear, transformers, etc will displace some of installation cost. Liberterians, anarchists, free love advocates, South Park fans, people from Idaho, and anybody in John Wahne’s family tree, please DO NOT READ THE FOLLOWING!!! The government can support these “solar utilities” by allowing favorable pollution credits to the building owners and/or utility shareholders. I would even try to get the Sierra Club, Greenpeace, and those guys to put their considerable money where they mouths are and pitch in with an inverter at each site, or something like that. Customers can become shareholders by buying the PV modules (or contributing to a wholesale purchase pool), and letting the “utility” install them at the commecial site. Oh, yeah, and peace on earth, too.
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If you live in the Pacific Gas and Electric, Southern California Edison, or San Diego Gas & Electric service areas, you can switch providers. Here is a list of green energy providers in California. http://www.energy.ca.gov/greenpower/providers.html I contacted all of the listed green energy providers by email on 11/25/98 with the following Customer Inquiry: Dear Green Energy Provider, I want to switch from using regular Southern California Edison electricity for my home to green energy and have 4 questions: 1. What products do you offer and what are their energy mix? 2. What sign-up deals do you offer? 3. What specifically does your company do to encourage people to conserve energy and use less electricity? 4. What specific new renewable energy capacity has your company brought to the California electric grid and when? Thank you very much for your time. Sincerely, Joel Davidson P. O. Box 5089 Culver City, CA 90231 To date I got one email response and one snail mail response. I assume the other inquiries fell through the cracks and do not plan to ask again if they will sell me their product. What have been other people’s experiences with green energy providers? tankless solar hot water heaters In Southern California, residential customers can ask for 50% or 100% renewable energy. If I remember correctly, the 100% renewable energy would cost an extra $210 a year, based on 600 kWh per month total usage.
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