Question:

Hello, tankless  solar hot water heaters My sister is in the peace corps in Africa and she has requested a solar battery charger that will charge AA batteries.  She wants one where the solar panel is connected by a wire to the part holding the batteries, so that the batteries can be in the shade while charging. We have tried REI, EMS, tankless  solar hot water heaters Radio Shack and several local campint and army surplus stores.  Please let me know if you have any sources, or if you know this item and can give me a more specific name. Also, please email me if possible in addition to posting. Please answer quickly if you can help, beacuse we are trying to send this with someone going to Africa on Dec 10.tankless  solar hot water heaters Thanks

Response:

Hello, My sister is in the peace corps in Africa and she has requested a solar battery charger that will charge AA batteries.tankless  solar hot water heaters  She wants one where the solar panel is connected by a wire to the part holding the batteries, so that the batteries can be in the shade while charging. We have tried REI, EMS, tankless  solar hot water heaters Radio Shack and several local campint and army surplus stores.  Please let me know if you have any sources, or if you know this item and can give me a more specific name. Also, please email me if possible in addition to posting. Please answer quickly if you can help, beacuse we are trying to send this with someone going to Africa on Dec 10. tankless  solar hot water heaters

Bernie, Campmor has a solar charger Item # 22310-P  $16.99 that has an attached panel.  Don’t think I’ve seen one with a detached panel, come to think of it.  Would a small section of folded aluminum foil shade the batteries enough for this one to work?tankless  solar hot water heaters

Response:

Expensive, but appears to have a 10 foot cord. http://www.wildwestweb.com/public/Jupiter.html Ed Bedford

Response:

They sell solar panels for boat batteries. Any good boating supply store should be able to help.

Response:

They sell solar panels for boat batteries. Any good boating supply store should be able to help.

I bought one from campmor that charges 4 aa batteries,tankless  solar hot water heaters but it doesn’t have the wires so the batteries can be moved to a different location. I use mine while canoeing, it will hold 4 batteries and does a good job..plus it is under $20.00 — Think of the most wonderful, fun, and peaceful thing you can possibly do: Then grab your boat and paddles and go paddle  it !! see you on the water Roy

Response:

Question:

I have seen similar rv solar panel battery charger circuit, spring actuated devices (Lucas used to make one) on lifeboat engines, on fire pumps and one some other “emergency” engine applikations like reserve generators. They work fairly well, but they need some considerations. rv solar panel battery charger circuit One is that the manual charging (for lack of a better word) need space and working room – so they cannot be placed anywhere. The second is that they cannot start a faulty or seriously cold diesel – they lack the punch to do so. They also safeguard against two problems, actually. The batterys *can* be empty, but as Jim puts it, odds are that there will be enough juice somewhere, on any but the simplest electrical setup. A broken starter motor can be a serious proplem, and these devices are a backup for that problem, too. But, given that mounting these devices is tricky (the engine need to have a second starter mount) and that they are *costly*, why not get a “cheap” Honda (similar) small portable generator and a main engine spare starter instead ?rv solar panel battery charger circuit  <major snipping going on below       I recently received info from Industrial Diesel Products out of Toronto regarding a spring starter that they sell. Claim to have one that fits most diesels. I called the factory and am getting info for both my Perkins 6-354 MT and my Northern Lights 5Kw generator.  They claim ( I don’t and all disclaimers apply) that you can attach a handle to the unit and wind up the springs until a window turns green and then trip a manual lever which will spin the engine fast enough and with enough revolutions to start it….Obviously this would only be needed in the event of a total battery loss, but it seems that it might be a good idea to at least have one for the genset which once started would charge the house 6 volt batteries and the 12 volt Main engine starting batteries through the 3 bank smart charger. rv solar panel battery charger circuit Anybody ever used one of these things….. Obviously the correct answer is never to let all your batteries get low at the same time..I Know that… but recently had a smart charger go dumb on me while I was away from the boat for several weeks and came back to find the 6 volt batteries swollen, hot and out of water   (boiled dry)   and the 12 volt batteries too weak to start the engine and the dedicated genset 12 volt battery down to 4.5 volts.   I have since replaced all batteries and the charger with a three bank c-charger and will obviously monitor them more closely underway than I did at the dock…Wouldn’t want to have that happen in the Cay Sal Banks area..rv solar panel battery charger circuit… I’ve heard about these, but no opinion.  I’ve also heard of hydraulic starters which ordinarily pump themselves up, but which you can pump up by hand if needed. We thought about such backups before leaving and concluded that with separate battery systems — really separate, no three way smart charger — that the risks were minimal.  Engine start batteries start only their own engine; house battery runs the house, is charged from its own alternator, and never shall the twain meet. Question then becomes, “How often does a car battery fail to start a car in warm weather when it’s not worn out.”  Since the answer is, “Rarely”, then you have “rarely” squared as the probability that neither engine will start at a given time.  Acceptable risk for me.  You could reduce it further by putting a small solar panel aboard. For this to work, you put a big second alternator on the main engine to charge the house battery.  On the genset you either put another big alternator or wire to an inverter/battery charger.  The latter was our choice.  The Trace we used also acts as the shore power transfer control, simplifying the panel. The 5kw Northern Lights (a wonderful unit) probably won’t like a really big second alternator hung on the front; don’t go overboard there. Both engines have their own alternators and batteries. No connections between batteries — a pair of jumper cables for emergencies. That way, you have real independence that no one can easily screw up. rv solar panel battery charger circuit

Response:

rv solar panel battery charger circuit   I recently received info from Industrial Diesel Products out of Toronto regarding a spring starter that they sell. Claim to have one that fits most diesels. I called the factory and am getting info for both my Perkins 6-354 MT and my Northern Lights 5Kw generator.  They claim rv solar panel battery charger circuit( I don’t and all disclaimers apply) that you can attach a handle to the unit and wind up the springs until a window turns green and then trip a manual lever which will spin the engine fast enough and with enough revolutions to start it….Obviously this would only be needed in the event of a total battery loss, but it seems that it might be a good idea to at least have one for the genset which once started would charge the house 6 volt batteries and the 12 volt Main engine starting batteries through the 3 bank smart charger.    Question: Anybody ever used one of these things…rv solar panel battery charger circuit.. Obviously the correct answer is never to let all your batteries get low at the same time..I Know that… but recently had a smart charger go dumb on me while I was away from the boat for several weeks and came back to find the 6 volt batteries swollen, hot and out of water   (boiled dry)   and the 12 volt batteries too weak to start the engine and the dedicated genset 12 volt battery down to 4.5 volts.   I have since replaced all batteries and the charger with a three bank c-charger and will obviously monitor them more closely underway than I did at the dock…Wouldn’t want to have that happen in the Cay Sal Banks area..rv solar panel battery charger circuit…

I’ve heard about these, but no opinion.  I’ve also heard of hydraulic starters which ordinarily pump themselves up, but which you can pump up by hand if needed. We thought about such backups before leaving and concluded that with separate battery systems — really separate, no three way smart charger — that the risks were minimal.  Engine start batteries start only their own engine; house battery runs the house, is charged from its own alternator, and never shall the twain meet. Question then becomes, “How often does a car battery fail to start a car in warm weather when it’s not worn out.”  Since the answer is, “Rarely”, then you have “rarely” squared as the probability that neither engine will start at a given time.  Acceptable risk for me.  You could reduce it further by putting a small solar panel aboard. For this to work, you put a big second alternator on the main engine to charge the house battery.  On the genset you either put another big alternator or wire to an inverter/battery charger.  The latter was our choice.  The Trace we used also acts as the shore power transfer control, simplifying the panel. The 5kw Northern Lights (a wonderful unit) probably won’t like a really big second alternator hung on the front; don’t go overboard there. Both engines have their own alternators and batteries. No connections between batteries — a pair of jumper cables for emergencies. That way, you have real independence that no one can easily screw up.

Response:

It really replaces the electric starter ..

In that case, it has unknown effect on reliability.rv solar panel battery charger circuit  Remember: the spring starter is also a mechanical contraption that can fail, for example, if some piece of grit gets caught in its workings.  The idea of a backup is to increase reliability.  ”If A fails, B which is independent might work, so I can start the engine unless *both* A and B fail.” But if B replaces A, B becomes the new single point of failure that can shut the system down.  Electric starters are fairly reliable, so you may actually *decrease* reliability by replacing one with a mechanical system.  (Batteries, of course, are unreliable in use, and that is why boats typically have a redundant, two bank battery system.)

Response:

Yes they work very well, rv solar panel battery charger circuit I installed a Lucas Spring Starter on a Perkins 4-236 80 HP diesel in a Finnsailor. It really replaces the electric starter, This one came with a short handle, maybe 12″ long. I did cut it in the middle and inserted an extension about 3 ft long. Now it was easy to crank the starter by just shortly removing the cockpit hatch. There was no need to use the electric starter at all since after the engine was shut down I cranked and left it in ready mode until I was needing the engine again. All it took was to release a short lever and she came to life! The number of turns will determine how powerful the start will be, The max was 12 turns and it brought cranking power that no battery could match, very impressive! These starters have adapter plates that will fit specific engines and those plates will match the existing electric starters, the same  3 bolts will be used. These starters are designed to be rotated for installation so that the insertion point for the cranking handle will be in the best location for clearing obstructions around the engine. I hope it was of help.

rv solar panel battery charger circuitI recently received info from Industrial Diesel Products out of Toronto regarding a spring starter that they sell. Claim to have one that fits most diesels.rv solar panel battery charger circuit
I called the factory and am getting info for both my Perkins 6-354 MT and my Northern Lights 5Kw generator.  They claim ( I don’t and all disclaimers apply) that you can attach a handle to the unit and wind up the springs until a window turns green and then trip a manual lever which will spin the engine fast enough and with enough revolutions to start it.rv solar panel battery charger circuit…Obviously this would only be needed in the event of a total battery loss, but it seems that it might be a good idea to at least have one for the genset which once started would charge the house 6 volt batteries and the 12 volt Main engine starting batteries through the 3 bank smart charger. Do you any contact info (a website perchance?) for the company you mention “Industrial Diesel Products out of Toronto”?

Response:

Anders is right;rv solar panel battery charger circuit I should have mentioned a spare engine starter as part of a good plan for engine failure.  The makeup of a good engine spares kit is a little off topic, but won’t take much space: one injector and seal/gasket/copper washer injector high pressure line (one for each cylinder if different) starter motor fuel pump diaphragm fuel pump (lift pump, not injection pump) and gasket gasket set sea water pump impellers and bearings hoses, special and general belts thermostat oil and fuel filters, oil zincs (if used — Bill’s 5kw Northern Lights does) primary seawater strainer (these are usually Monel but don’t last forever) seawater injection exhaust elbow (this is a problem area on the 5kw NL) rv solar panel battery charger circuit if feeling rich or going away for a long time, maybe: injection pump heat exchanger fresh water pump full set of injectors Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen similar, spring actuated devices (Lucas used to make one) on lifeboat engines, on fire pumps and one some other “emergency” engine applikations like reserve generators. They work fairly well, but they need some considerations. One is that the manual charging (for lack of a better word) need space and working room – so they cannot be placed anywhere. The second is that they cannot start a faulty or seriously cold diesel – they lack the punch to do so. They also safeguard against two problems, actually. rv solar panel battery charger circuit The batterys *can* be empty, but as Jim puts it, odds are that there will be enough juice somewhere, on any but the simplest electrical setup. A broken starter motor can be a serious proplem, and these devices are a backup for that problem, too. But, given that mounting these devices is tricky (the engine need to have a second starter mount) and that they are *costly*, why not get a “cheap” Honda (similar) small portable generator and a main engine spare starter instead ? <major snipping going on below       I recently received info from Industrial Diesel Products out of Toronto regarding a spring starter that they sell. Claim to have one that fits most diesels. I called the factory and am getting info for both my Perkins 6- 354 MT and my Northern Lights 5Kw generator.  They claim ( I don’t and all disclaimers apply) that you can attach a handle to the unit and wind up the springs until a window turns green and then trip a manual lever which will spin the engine fast enough and with enough revolutions to start it..rv solar panel battery charger circuit..Obviously this would only be needed in the event of a total battery loss, but it seems that it might be a good idea to at least have one for the genset which once started would charge the house 6 volt batteries and the 12 volt Main engine starting batteries through the 3 bank smart charger.       Question: Anybody ever used one of these things….. Obviously the correct answer is never to let all your batteries get low at the same time..I Know that… but recently had a smart charger go dumb on me while I was away from the boat for several weeks and came back to find the 6 volt batteries swollen, hot and out of water   (boiled dry)   and the 12 volt batteries too weak to start the engine and the dedicated genset 12 volt battery down to 4.5 volts.   I have since replaced all batteries and the charger with a three bank c-charger and will obviously monitor them more closely underway than I did at the dock…Wouldn’t want to have that happen in the Cay Sal Banks area….. I’ve heard about these, but no opinion.  I’ve also heard of hydraulic starters which ordinarily pump themselves up, but which you can pump up by hand if needed. We thought about such backups before leaving and concluded that with separate battery systems — really separate, no three way smart charger — that the risks were minimal.  Engine start batteries start only their own engine; house battery runs the house, is charged from its own alternator, and never shall the twain meet. Question then becomes, “How often does a car battery fail to start a car in warm weather when it’s not worn out.”  Since the answer is, “Rarely”, then you have “rarely” squared as the probability that neither engine will start at a given time.  Acceptable risk for me.  You could reduce it further by putting a small solar panel aboard. For this to work, you put a big second alternator on the main engine to charge the house battery.  On the genset you either put another big alternator or wire to an inverter/battery charger.  The latter was our choice.  The Trace we used also acts as the shore power transfer control, simplifying the panel. The 5kw Northern Lights (a wonderful unit) probably won’t like a really big second alternator hung on the front; don’t go overboard there. Both engines have their own alternators and batteries. No connections between batteries

Response:

I recently received info from Industrial Diesel Products out of Toronto regarding a spring starter that they sell. Claim to have one that fits most diesels. I called the factory and am getting info for both my Perkins 6-354 MT and my Northern Lights 5Kw generator.  They claim ( I don’t and all disclaimers apply) that you can attach a handle to the unit and wind up the springs until a window turns green and then trip a manual lever which will spin the engine fast enough and with enough revolutions to start it….Obviously this would only be needed in the event of a total battery loss, but it seems that it might be a good idea to at least have one for the genset which once started would charge the house 6 volt batteries and the 12 volt Main engine starting batteries through the 3 bank smart charger.rv solar panel battery charger circuit

Response:

rv solar panel battery charger circuit and I  had an offer on the house in mid April  and after a few weeks of haggling finally came to an agreeable contract. Closing is June 1 and after that we will be homeless. No more putting off moving on to the boat to get the last little chores done; no delays; no turning back. We are both excited and somewhat apprehensive ( yes even I, who have been cruising most of my adult life am a bit apprehensive at the thought of not having a home to return to.)    rv solar panel battery charger circuit     We are in the final throes of getting “Courtship” ready. Painting is nearly complete and headliner in main saloon along with that in the aft cabin was actually done until I checked the staples with a magnet and … you guessed it….steel instead of Monel. Now it’s time for the guy to remove all the headliners and replace the staples.          In any event, I still have a couple of questions. Notwithstanding the dearth of info on Radars over the past several weeks I am still confused… My intention at this point  is to buy  a Raytheon SL-72 with 2 Kw dome, I think this will suite us in the Caribbean and down towards Belize.. Looking for squalls and avoiding big thunderstorms etc   primarily.rv solar panel battery charger circuit  I plan to mount the display at the lower station for running at night and when the weather is less than optimal. I want to run an antenna extension cable from the lower station to the bridge which will have a power supply for the radar so I can move the display topsides during the day and search for fish/ birds and get really accustomed to seeing in real life what the radar shows as two dimensional.         Questions: anybody have any info that either my product choice or method of installation is faulty?   Has anyone installed a SL=-72 and if so, Is this a realistic job for me (I’m pretty handy in general)?   Are there certain installation pitfalls to avoid? Is there a way that I can “match” the 2Kw radome to the display without some exotic test equipment or is it pretuned at the factory?     I thank you all for your help with this one….         I recently received info from Industrial Diesel Products out of Toronto regarding a spring starter that they sell. Claim to have one that fits most diesels. I called the factory and am getting info for both my Perkins 6-354 MT and my Northern Lights 5Kw generator.  They claim ( I don’t and all disclaimers apply) that you can attach a handle to the unit and wind up the springs until a window turns green and then trip a manual lever which will spin the engine fast enough and with enough revolutions to start it….Obviously this would only be needed in the event of a total battery loss, but it seems that it might be a good idea to at least have one for the genset which once started would charge the house 6 volt batteries and the 12 volt Main engine starting batteries through the 3 bank smart charger.         Question: Anybody ever used one of these things….. Obviously the correct answer is never to let all your batteries get low at the same time..I Know that… but recently had a smart charger go dumb on me while I was away from the boat for several weeks and came back to find the 6 volt batteries swollen, hot and out of water   (boiled dry)   and the 12 volt batteries too weak to start the engine and the dedicated genset 12 volt battery down to 4.5 volts.   I have since replaced all batteries and the charger with a three bank c-charger and will obviously monitor them more closely underway than I did at the dock…Wouldn’t want to have that happen in the Cay Sal Banks area..rv solar panel battery charger circuit…         Didn’t mean to make this a monolog. Sorry         We plan to keep in touch with the group while underway but it will be sporadic.         If anyone is interested, I’ll try to keep you up to date on our final days toward something I’ve always wanted to do and will let you know when we plan to leave the dock get on the radio and advise all interested traffic that the Motor Vessel Courtship is ” Outward Bound” Bill & Nancy Benton WD4NAJ “Courtship”     a 38 foot New Japan Full Displacement Trawler soon to be home. rv solar panel battery charger circuit…

Response:

Question:

I had Sams 6 volt batteries on automobile solar panel battery charger my sailboat. automobile solar panel battery charger 8 of them.  Sailed from San Francisco to Annapolis, over 4 year period.automobile solar panel battery charger  Batteries will be 6 years old this April and still going strong. Just bought 8 more from Sams Club for my new boat. automobile solar panel battery charger

Response:

Just redid my battery system and agonized over the choice of batteries. I went from two agm 105 amp hr batts to 440 amps with 4 trojan t-105’s. I was tempted to take the easy way out and increase my capacity with agm’s. This would have saved me the trouble of building a vented battery compartment. Using Agm’s would have cost me close to $800.00 as compared to less than $300.00 for the Trojans purchased at West Marine. If you check out the Home Power site, you will see that many wind and solar homes use flooded 6 volt batts.automobile solar panel battery charger I have not noticed any using agm’s or gels. This job takes a lot of planning and work, but is worth the effort. automobile solar panel battery charger What do you all know about AGM (absorbed-glass-mat)batteries. I was considering these  because they can be installed on there sides or on end or for that matter, upside down.  I can get three 8Ds in my battery well if I stand them on end. When I talked to the local distributer of Trojan batteries and mentioned my intentions, he told me that I could do that but would loose 20% of the battery capacity.automobile solar panel battery charger He said that Gel cells would also suffer the same degradation. This is suppose to be do to the migration of the solution/gel in the battery case. The plates are located in the lower 80% of the cell chamber and when on their side or end the solution/gel will migrate to the area not occupied by the plates and the plate then on top would be deprived of this electrolite solution. Much the same as a wet cell battery. automobile solar panel battery charger

Response:

Don’t buy your batteries from Sam’s. Try Exide next time.

You have got to be kidding! I have never seen any brand of battery go bad as fast as Exides do.

Response:

Using Agm’s would have cost me close to automobile solar panel battery charger $800.00 as compared to less than $300.00 for the Trojans purchased at West Marine.

Don`t buy Trojans at West Marine with out calling Trojan first and getting the phone # of you`r local dealer.automobile solar panel battery charger I did and the local dealers price was alot less than West Marine.

Response:

Using Agm’s would have cost me close to $800.00 as compared to less than $300.00 for the Trojans purchased at West Marine. Don`t buy Trojans at West Marine with out calling Trojan first and getting the phone # of you`r local dealer. automobile solar panel battery charger I did and the local dealers price was alot less than West Marine.

I am planning to buy Trojans direct from the New England distributor in Auburn MA. The price for their top of the line flooded 130 A-Hr battery is $30 less than the WEST Marine price. i.e. $90 vs $120 Considering I plan to buy four of them this is a big saving! Cheers,  automobile solar panel battery charger

Response:

Hey Steve, Just redid my battery system and agonized over the choice of  automobile solar panel battery chargerbatteries. I went from two agm 105 amp hr batts to 440 amps with 4 trojan t-105’s.

I’m going the other way: replacing flooded cell with AGM.  AGM’s cost more, but I am tired of maintaining the flooded cells.  My battery box is located where it is difficult to see the water level.automobile solar panel battery charger  I had two group 27’s, and the box will not hold two group 31’s or I would probably get them. I was tempted to take the easy way out and increase my capacity with agm’s. This would have saved me the trouble of building a vented battery compartment. Using Agm’s would have cost me close to $800.00 as compared to less than $300.00 for the Trojans purchased at West Marine. automobile solar panel battery charger

I am buying a Lifeline AGM (group 27) with 95 amp hours for $165(US) shipped to my doorstep.  That would be $660 for 380 amp hours in four batteries.  The cost might be less if buying four batteries, and might be less per amp hour by buying larger (group 31, 4D, etc.) models.  It looks like good technology to me. Check out http://www.dcbattery.com/ for info and quotes on Lifeline and Optima AGM’s and lots of other batteries as well. I think the AGM still needs a vented box, just as flooded cell would.  I would want a box to protect the batteries, even if it is not likely to be needed to contain an acid spill.  The venting isn’t much of an issue: hydrogen is lighter than air, so it isn’t like venting a propane locker.   If you check out the Home Power site, you will see that many wind and solar homes use flooded 6 volt batts. I have not noticed any using agm’s or gels.automobile solar panel battery charger

Home installations don’t have much concern over access for maintenance and the vibration and shocks batteries might see in a boat.automobile solar panel battery charger  This job takes a lot of planning and work, but is worth the effort.

Response:

Thanks Warren, That site had the information I was looking forautomobile solar panel battery charger. They are the mfg of the Lifeline batteries sold by West Marine and it is that same technical information that I have been using to plan my battery installation. The 3rd party distributor was giving me false information, I think, because he has the AGMs confused with traditional Gel Cells. I thank all in the group who came to my rescue with suggestions, experiences and advice.

Response:

If there is something wrong with the way I’m charging, we’ll have to take that up with Heart.automobile solar panel battery charger  I’m using their charger. It has a maximum charge rate of over 100 Amps. Are you talking from experience that Sam’s Club batteries should last 2 to 3 years.  Of course, I expected them to last that long also, but they didn’t. I also would stay away from Exides.

Response:

Steve – I found this is a good battery site  automobile solar panel battery charger The Trojan site you provide was helpful and I see your point. My next question would be how many deep cycles do these batteries have. I seldom find that information in battery specs. They can throw in all kinds for CCA and etc.(which tend to confuse the issue for a boater who wants to operate moderately low current equipment, not crank his engine. The only information I can  find on Deep Cycles is in West Marine Advisor. I was interested in batteries that would give me the highest Deep Cycles and fit my battery well. Here are some of their ratings of Deep Cycles: Cheap Cranking         25 cycles Cheap Gel 12 v         100 Cheap Deep Cycle    150 SeaGel 12v                500 SeaVolt Dual purp      200 SeaVolt Deep Cycle   350 SeaVolt 6v                1000 Lifeline AGM            1000 Industrial (L-16)        1000 SeaVolt 6v                  700 Maybe I’m wrong but would like to have battery bank that is in the 1000 cycle range. I used Trojan T145 in my last boat and was very happy with them but never really knew how many cycles they were rated at. I tried to talk to Trojan about a year ago and they were reluctant to address this and finally referred me to the local Seattle distributor. A secondary reason for looking at the AGM batteries was that I wouldn’t have to have access to the battery vent caps for maintenance. Thanks to everybody for their in put. My basic question still remains. Can these AGMs be stood on end with out loosing performance capacity?? The dealer says I will loose 20% by installing them on their side or on end. Steve S/V Good Intentions

Response:

You might be overcharging, or going too long inbetween full charges. The recommended max charge rate is C/10, or the amp hour rating divided by 10. So if you have 600 AH batteries, the max charge rate should be 60 amps. They can take more, but not recommended. However, the most common cause of battery failure is undercharging, or sitting around in a partly discharged state for periods of time. Is the Heart your ONLY source of charging?

automobile solar panel battery chargerIf there is something wrong with the way I’m charging, we’ll have to take that up with Heart.  I’m using their charger. It has a maximum charge rate of over 100 Amps. Are you talking from experience that Sam’s Club batteries should last 2 to 3 years.  Of course, I expected them to last that long also, but they didn’t. I also would stay away from Exides.

Response:

Check out Optima batteries — the electric vehicle conversion folks mount them sideways all the time with no loss of performance. Apparently upside-down is not OK. Other postings have mentioned the expense and need for careful charging; this is all true. But AGMs, and Optimas in particular, are capable of delivering MASSIVE current if needed, and are much less messy than flooded. Just my $0.02…. -K

Response:

I used Sam’s Club Golf cart batteries for almost 3 years on my trawler.  I had to replace them after about a year each time.

Response:

Then there is something wrong with the way you are charging. Even the Sams club batteries should last 2 to 3 years. We will not sell the Exide deep cycle batteries as we had too much trouble with them in the past. — Electricity from the sun since 1979 http://www.windsun.com/ (info & specs) http://www.solar-electric.com/ (online store)

I used Sam’s Club Golf cart batteries for almost 3 years on my trawler.  I had to replace them after about a year each time.  They don’t seem to hold up to the high charging rates that a Heart Inverter/Charger can deliver. They would outgas terribly when they go bad.  Finally, I bit the bullet and bought 4 AGM 6 volt batteries from West Marine.  8 months later they seem perfect, never have to look at them.  I bet you won’t notice a 20 percent loss (if that’s really true).  You probably lose 20 percent on the wet batteries by sulfating the plates a couple of times. Ed What do you all know about AGM (absorbed-glass-mat)batteries. I was considering these  because they can be installed on there sides or on end or for that matter, upside down.  I can get three 8Ds in my battery well if I stand them on end. When I talked to the local distributer of Trojan batteries and mentioned my intentions, he told me that I could do that but would loose 20% of the battery capacity. He said that Gel cells would also suffer the same degradation. This is suppose to be do to the migration of the solution/gel in the battery case. The plates are located in the lower 80% of the cell chamber and when on their side or end the solution/gel will migrate to the area not occupied by the plates and the plate then on top would be deprived of this electrolite solution.automobile solar panel battery charger Much the same as a wet cell battery. Steve S/V Good Intentions

Response:

The Concorde battery site has all the info on the AGM batteries. www.concordebattery.com go to the Lifeline section, they have all the discharge curves, number of cycle curves etc etc. Trojan does not know what they are talking about when it comes to AGM batteries. The electrolyte does not migrate when mounted in other positions, unlike gelled. The upcoming issue (Feb/Mar) of Homepower Magazine has a write up about the Concorde AGM’ batteries, and should be available for download in 3-4 days. www.homepower.com — Electricity from the sun since 1979 http://www.windsun.com/ (info & specs) http://www.solar-electric.com/ (online store)

- What do you all know about AGM (absorbed-glass-mat)batteries. I was considering these  because they can be installed on there sides or on end or for that matter, upside down.  I can get three 8Ds in my battery well if I stand them on end. When I talked to the local distributer of Trojan batteries and mentioned my intentions, he told me that I could do that but would loose 20% of the battery capacity.automobile solar panel battery charger He said that Gel cells would also suffer the same degradation. This is suppose to be do to the migration of the solution/gel in the battery case. The plates are located in the lower 80% of the cell chamber and when on their side or end the solution/gel will migrate to the area not occupied by the plates and the plate then on top would be deprived of this electrolite solution. Much the same as a wet cell battery. Steve S/V Good Intentions

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… Thanks to everybody for their in put. My basic question still remains. Can these AGMs be stood on end with out loosing performance capacity?? The dealer says I will loose 20% by installing them on automobile solar panel battery charger their side or on end.

Contact the manufacturer.  I think Optima states their AGM’s can even be mounted upside down. Here’s another URL with AGM info

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The Trojan site you provide was helpful and I see your point. My next question would be how many deep cycles do these batteries have. I seldom find that information in battery specs. They can throw in all kinds for CCA and etc.(which tend to confuse the issue for a boater who wants to operate moderately low current equipment, not crank his engine. The only information I can  find on Deep Cycles is in West Marine Advisor. I was interested in batteries that would give me the highest Deep Cycles and fit my battery well. Here are some of their ratings of Deep Cycles: Cheap Cranking         25 cycles Cheap Gel 12 v         100 Cheap Deep Cycle    150 SeaGel 12v                500 SeaVolt Dual purp      200 SeaVolt Deep Cycle   350 SeaVolt 6v                1000 Lifeline AGM            1000 Industrial (L-16)        1000 SeaVolt 6v                  700 Maybe I’m wrong but would like to have battery bank that is in the 1000 cycle range. I used Trojan T145 in my last boat and was very happy with them but never really knew how many cycles they were rated at. I tried to talk to Trojan about a year ago and they were reluctant to address this and finally referred me to the local Seattle distributor. A secondary reason for looking at the AGM batteries was that I wouldn’t have to have access to the battery vent caps for maintenance. Thanks to everybody for their in put. My basic question still remains. Can these AGMs be stood on end with out loosing performance capacity?? The dealer says I will loose 20% by installing them on their side or on end. Steve S/V Good Intentions

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Exide batteries recieved such a poor write uo in Popular Sailor years back that I still wouldn’t trust them . The company refused to provide any for testing and  the ones obtained when cut open already had broken grids inside and  loose lead. AGMs like Gel cells have a tendency to go dead suddenly at the end of there life cycle wit little warning. AGMs are used on North Slope oil field equipment because they can still crank at Artic tempertures.

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I have four 4D AGM’s with one on it’s side. they have performed perfectly well for two seasons. Remember the Trojan salesman wants to sell his product and needs to hang his hat on something.  If I really wanted wet cells I would buy the Trojans they are very good according to cruisers I have talked to that have them.  In my case, laying one 4D on it’s side added a battery to the house bank that I would not have if restricted to wet cells. Rich Cassano S/V “Gray Eagle” Tashiba 40 Oyster Bay, NY USA

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I used Sam’s Club Golf cart batteries for almost 3 years on my trawler.  I had to replace them after about a year each time.  They don’t seem to hold up to the high charging rates that a Heart Inverter/Charger can deliver. They would outgas terribly when they go bad.  Finally, I bit the bullet and bought 4 AGM 6 volt batteries from West Marine.  8 months later they seem perfect, never have to look at them.  I bet you won’t notice a 20 percent loss (if that’s really true).  You probably lose 20 percent on the wet batteries by sulfating the plates a couple of times.

I’m curious.  Batteries seem like really basic technology.  I know you can increase plate thickness (so they have a longer life) or make them thinner (to keep costs down by saving a bit of lead).  What is so bad about Sam’s 6V batteries that they are failing so quickly?  How can they be so much worse that everything else out there in 6V land. I bought Exide EV-IV 6 volt batteries (the cheapest where I was living) and they lasted 4 years of full time living aboard, often living at significant undercharge levels.  (like 12.0 volts or so).  They only finally lost signifcant capacity when we left a solar panel & battery charger connected while the boat was unattended in Panama for 4 months.  The solar panel regulator was set to 14.5 volts.  When we returned, there was a significant lack of water in the cells.

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Don’t buy your batteries from Sam’s. Try Exide next time. –automobile solar panel battery charger — Isn’t it time we started putting KIDS first?  See the above URL for a plan to do exactly that! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I used Sam’s Club Golf cart batteries for almost 3 years on my trawler.  I had to replace them after about a year each time.  They don’t seem to hold up to the high charging rates that a Heart Inverter/Charger can deliver. They would outgas terribly when they go bad.  Finally, I bit the bullet and bought 4 AGM 6 volt batteries from West Marine.  8 months later they seem perfect, never have to look at them.  I bet you won’t notice a 20 percent loss (if that’s really true).  You probably lose 20 percent on the wet batteries by sulfating the plates a couple of times. Ed What do you all know about AGM (absorbed-glass-mat)batteries. I was considering these  because they can be installed on there sides or on end or for that matter, upside down.  I can get three 8Ds in my battery well if I stand them on end. When I talked to the local distributer of Trojan batteries and mentioned my intentions, he told me that I could do that but would loose 20% of the battery capacity. He said that Gel cells would also suffer the same degradation. This is suppose to be do to the migration of the solution/gel in the battery case. The plates are located in the lower 80% of the cell chamber and when on their side or end the solution/gel will migrate to the area not occupied by the plates and the plate then on top would be deprived of this electrolite solution. Much the same as a wet cell battery. Steve S/V Good Intentions

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I used Sam’s Club Golf cart batteries for almost 3 years on my trawler.  I had to replace them after about a year each time.  They don’t seem to hold up to the high charging rates that a Heart Inverter/Charger can deliver. They would outgas terribly when they go bad.  Finally, I bit the bullet and bought 4 AGM 6 volt batteries from West Marine.  8 months later they seem perfect, never have to look at them.  I bet you won’t notice a 20 percent loss (if that’s really true).  You probably lose 20 percent on the wet batteries by sulfating the plates a couple of times. Ed

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What do you all know about AGM (absorbed-glass-mat)batteries. I was considering these  because they can be installed on there sides or on end or for that matter, upside down.  I can get three 8Ds in my battery well if I stand them on end. When I talked to the local distributer of Trojan batteries and mentioned my intentions, he told me that I could do that but would loose 20% of the battery capacity. He said that Gel cells would also suffer the same degradation. This is suppose to be do to the migration of the solution/gel in the battery case. The plates are located in the lower 80% of the cell chamber and when on their side or end the solution/gel will migrate to the area not occupied by the plates and the plate then on top would be deprived of this electrolite solution. Much the same as a wet cell battery. Steve S/V Good Intentions

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The L-16 were my origanal plan and may still be my final choice. The reason I was considering the 8D size AGM is because these batteries are going down in my keel and since there is always a danger of bilge water getting into the battery well, I will close of the top water tight with only utility hatches for in the cover. Of course there will be forced ventalation no matter which batteries I use. The minor draw back to the utility hatch arrangement is that I would need one over each L-16 battery to service the vent/fills. With the 8D AGM on end I can get 3 in the available space and not have to service them. All that seemed to work out well until I heard about the electrolite migration problem. I can actually get six L-16s in the available space and that give me about 50% more capacity than the three AGMs. To tell the truth, I have had more experience with Deep Cycle lead acid than I have with Gel or AGM and have just about talked myself into sticking with proven technology. Steve

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What do you all know about AGM (absorbed-glass-mat)batteries. I was considering these  because they can be installed on there sides or on end or for that matter, upside down.  I can get three 8Ds in my battery well if I stand them on end.

If you have that much hight, why not try 4 L-16 floor polisher batteries (11.7 W x 7D x 16.7H).  That will give you 700 AH and at about $320 for a pair, they are the least expensive per AH of all deep cycles.  As they are a standard industrial item, they are available almost everywhere. They also are very rugged.   We use them in 5 floor machines that suck up 140 AH out of them  six days a week   We get a bit over 3 years out of them (1,000 cycles) — Glenn Ashmore I’m building a 45′ cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack there of) at:  http://www.mindspring.com/~gashmore

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What do you all know about AGM (absorbed-glass-mat)batteries. I was considering these  because they can be installed on there sides or on end or for that matter, upside down.  I can get three 8Ds in my battery well if I stand them on end. When I talked to the local distributer of Trojan batteries and mentioned my intentions, he told me that I could do that but would loose 20% of the battery capacity. He said that Gel cells would also suffer the same degradation. This is suppose to be do to the migration of the solution/gel in the battery case. The plates are located in the lower 80% of the cell chamber and when on their side or end the solution/gel will migrate to the area not occupied by the plates and the plate then on top would be deprived of this electrolite solution. Much the same as a wet cell battery. Steve S/V Good Intentions

AGM batteries are an excellent choice PROVIDED you will never abuse them (either fully discharge OR overcharge) – and thus will never need to equalize them. If you DO, you’re hosed.  AGM batteries, like GelCels and other sealed designs, cannot have electrolyte replaced.  If you exceed the ability of the internal media to recombine the Hydrogen and Oxygen (into water) and the battery gasses, you’re screwed. I still say the best batteries for any sort of high-capacity deep-cycle ship-board use are golf car batteries.  They’re flooded and a pain in the ass to take care of for that reason, but they are (1) cheap, (2) virtually indestructable (consider the abuse in terms of charge rates and discharge percentages the average golf car is put through with these!) and (3) have a very nice energy density. To equal their characteristics in other types of battery you’re going to spend a LOT more money – and get, overall, less. — — Isn’t it time we started putting KIDS first?  See the above URL for a plan to do exactly that!

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What do you all know about AGM (absorbed-glass-mat)batteries. I was considering these  because they can be installed on there sides or on end or for that matter, upside down.  I can get three 8Ds in my battery well if I stand them on end. When I talked to the local distributer of Trojan batteries and mentioned my intentions, he told me that I could do that but would loose 20% of the battery capacity. He said that Gel cells would also suffer the same degradation. This is suppose to be do to the migration of the solution/gel in the battery case. The plates are located in the lower 80% of the cell chamber and when on their side or end the solution/gel will migrate to the area not occupied by the plates and the plate then on top would be deprived of this electrolite solution. Much the same as a wet cell battery. Steve S/V Good Intentions

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Question:

I am seriously interested in portable solar panel battery charger obtaining a small generator to have with me for my travel trailer [1985 32' Kountry Aire by Newmar]. portable solar panel battery charger  I am told that any generator that has to spin at 3600 RPM to provide 4000 Watts of power at 120 VAC and 30 amps will not hold up and will in shot order come a part. I would be interested in hearing from those of you out there who have experience with generators in RV’s or with RV’s.  Thanks!portable solar panel battery charger

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I am also thinking about carrying a portable solar panel battery charger small generator in the back of my truck & have heard many favorable reports on the small Honda generators. portable solar panel battery charger  However, I think I’ll wait till after Y2K because I think most generator prices are greatly inflated now! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am seriously interested in obtaining a small generator to have with me for my travel trailer [1985 32' Kountry Aire by Newmar].  I am told that any generator that has to spin at 3600 RPM to provide 4000 Watts of power at 120 VAC and 30 amps will not hold up and will in shot order come a part. I would be interested in hearing from those of you out there who have experience with generators in RV’s or with RV’s.  Thanks!portable solar panel battery charger

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I am seriously interested in obtaining a small generator to have with me for my travel trailer [1985 32' Kountry Aire by Newmar].  I am told that any generator that has to spin at 3600 RPM to provide 4000 Watts of power at 120 VAC and 30 amps will not hold up and will in shot order come a part. I would be interested in hearing from those of you out there who have experience with generators in RV’s or with RV’s.  Thanks!

You’ve been given a mixture of good & bad information. portable solar panel battery charger It is true that many portable gensets operate at 3600 rpm, and it is also true that some of the cheap ones do not have the long life expectancy of a quality low-speed unit. But there are some very nice portables that will work quite well – my personal favorite is Honda.  They make a family of easy-starting, relatively quiet machines that are very dependable and long-lasting. They demand a premium price but IMO are worth it. You did not mention noise, but virtually all portables large enough to run an a/c are noisier than the usual motorhome genset, and will be unwelcome in places where noise is objectionable.  When we towed a fiver we carried one in the truck but did not attempt to use it in CG’s. Will KD3XR

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…There is a good common sense article on this website about generators right now…         portable solar panel battery charger I would be interested in hearing from those of you out there who have experience with generators in RV’s or with RV’s.  Thanks!

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…There is a good common sense article on this website about generators right now…         http://www.rvtimes.com If the generator is for the sole purpose of charging house batteries, you might try a solar panel. Quiet, efficient, can be used anywhere.

Pretty rough to charge the old batteries with the solar cells when the clouds come.  Not to mention the cost. I’d like to comment on this article.  I’ve owned the Honda EX350 practically since it came out.  We use it at craft shows to light my wife’s stained glass lamps when the shows try to rape us on power hookup prices.  It stays in the trunk of my car otherwise to make sure I never need a jump.  And it goes with us in the RV for when we just need to run a fan or something outside and don’t want to run the big genset. This is a gorgeous little unit.  It contains a 2 stroke weed-whacker-type engine, a small car-style 3 phase alternator and rectifier and a 300 watt inverter to make the 60 cycles.  It is only a little larger than a lunch pail and weighs little.  Because the generator does not have to run at a synchronous speed to make the 60 hz, the generator can be throttled according to the load.  The article at RVtimes was misleading about this unit, obviously because the author only read the spec sheet.  Because of the ability to throttle the engine, the fuel consumption is pretty much proportional to the load.  While the little tank runs dry in a few hours at full load, at lower loads and for charging batteries, it will run literally all day on a single fueling. Aside from the size and weight, the other wonderful feature is the noise, or lack thereof.  On low speed, I’ve had people stand within a couple of feet of it and not realize it was running.  Many outdoor crafts shows ban generators (coincidentally, they seem to be the ones who charge exorbitant power hookup fees.) For these, I put the generator in a large cardboard box lined with foam and equipped with a few small holes for cooling air.  Even on high speed, the generator is practically inaudible when standing beside the box. Some would worry about the smell of the 2-stroke.  If the factory oil mixing instructions are followed, that can be a consideration.   But!  If you use a good synthetic oil (I think Honda sells the BEST 2-stroke oil. Period), the mixing ratio can be increased to 80:1 or more.  I personally run 100:1.  All the bearings are either needle or ball which needs only a mere whisp of oil.  The cylinder is chrome plated so it needs very little oil too.  This produces no smoke except during warmup and the Honda oil’s smell is neutral to pleasant.  Some might question using oil this lean but I’ve owned my unit for about 8 years and it’s still running like the day it was new. The battery charging feature is kinda weak.  It is rated at 8 amps or some such but it won’t do it.  I carry a small 10 amp battery charger when I anticipate needing to charge a battery. One other little note.  The 60 hz output is a square wave.  Square waves contain lots of harmonics and the peak voltage is less than an equivalent RMS value sine wave.  This has some important consequences. *       The sharp, harmonics-rich edges of the square waves will make audio equipment buzz unless very well designed.  Most boom boxes do NOT fall into this catagory!  That was a great disappointment to me. * portable solar panel battery charger      Some fluorescent lights and every HID (mercury vapor, metal halide) light I’ve ever tested will not work.  They need the higher peak voltage of the sine wave to ignite properly.  HID lights are particularly frustrating because they will start just fine but go out after they get warm. *       Some other devices, particularly older computers, that rely on the sine wave peak to operate their power supplies will not work.  My old Compaq 386LTE (may it rest in peace) fell in that catagory.   *       The sharp edge of the square wave will make the iron in the stators of cheap motors buzz.  This is most noticeable with a desk fan on low speed.  Not terribly loud but noticeable. Not directly applicable to generators but related since square waves are involved.  Inverters come in 3 flavors:  Pure square wave (cheapesst), pseudo sine wave (square wave with some steps in it) and true sine waves (most expensive).  In the larger sizes (500 watts), the square wave inverter is the most common because it is the cheapest.  The Tripplite 1000 watt square wave inverter I have in my catering van was half the price of a 1000 watt true sine wave inverter.  What is important to understand is that with square wave and pseudosine wave inverters, there are some devices that just flat will not work.  The microwave oven is the most common example. I orginally bought the inverter to power a microwave oven.  With the van engine running, the inverter outputs 130 volts as indicated by my true-RMS DVM.  Yet the microwave doesn’t work.  It would power up , the turntable would turn, the filament in the magnetron would light but no power.  Why?  The magnetron power supply in the microwave is designed to operate on the PEAK of the 60 hz sine wave.  If one looks at the microwave output with a scope, one would see that all the microwaves are generated during a very short period at the peak of the sine wave.  The problem is, the peak value of a square wave is much less than that of a sine with the same RMS voltage.  The voltage never gets high enough to fire off the magnetron. Pseudo-sine wave inverters may or may not work, depending on the design.  The important thing to realize that testing before buying is a must. John John — John De Armond http://neonjohn.4mg.com Neon John’s Custom Neon Cleveland, TN “Bendin’ Glass ‘n Passin’ Gas” portable solar panel battery charger

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Question:

solar panel battery trickle charger
Is there a solar powered battery charger for boats that I can buy?  I have a jon boat with an outboard motor and solar panel battery trickle charger
I want to use a fish finder and every now and then I like to fish at night so I need to keep the lights burning.  There is no power outlet on the motor and I do have an abundance of sunlight around here.solar panel battery trickle charger
I have looked at places like Radio Shack and a few boating supply places to no luck. Any suggestions? solar panel battery trickle charger

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A question: Is there a solar powered battery charger for boats that I can buy?  I have a jon boat with an outboard motor and I want to use a fish finder and every now and then I like to fish at night so I need to keep the lights burning.  There is no power outlet on the motor and I do have an abundance of sunlight around here.  I have looked at places like Radio Shack and a few boating supply places to no luck. solar panel battery trickle charger

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Harbor Freight has one for 20.00 that puts out 1.8 watt.

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A question: Is there a solar powered battery charger for boats that I can buy?  I have a jon boat with an outboard motor and I want to use a fish finder and every now and then I like to fish at night so I need to keep the lights burning.solar panel battery trickle charger
There is no power outlet on the motor and I do have an abundance of sunlight around here.  I have looked at places like Radio Shack and a few boating supply places to no luck. Any suggestions? Ookie

a grand total of 3A. To keep this going for 5 hours you need 15Ah. This requires a pretty big battery, about the size of a motorcycle or riding mower battery. The size of a solar panel which would recharge such a battery can be determined if you know how long you are willing to wait for a recharge. If you wanted the panel to recharge the battery in just one day (say 10 hours of direct sunlight), then the panel would have to deliver at least 1.5A or 18W, which is a big,solar panel battery trickle charger
expensive panel. per day) to recharge your battery

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Solved my small-boat power problem: http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/genligframe.htm click on MODELS on the right.  I bought the EU1000iA2 off the net for $280 less than retail plus about $50 shipping.  1000 watts of computer-controlled, inverter stable, 115VAC 60Hz stable enough for your computer system.  They also have a 2000 w model if that isn’t enough.  At 500 watts of load, the little 4-stroke, 50cc, computer-controlled engine drinks the princely sum of 0.6 gallons of regular in 8.2 HOURS!  It’s so quiet you can carry on a conversation with no problem while standing OVER it.  It’s 8A charger DC output will charge your trolling motor battery, and is SEPARATE completely from the 1000W AC windings.  The soft rubber feet absorb engine vibration almost completely.  Because of the Economizer and inverter, the engine RPM drops down as load decreases because RPM is NOT what causes 60 Hz AC in this genset.  The output voltage and frequency is ROCK STEADY. You can have all the power to fish you want for less than a gallon a day….whether the sun shines or not, even in total darkness…. larry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -A question: Is there a solar powered battery charger for boats that I can buy?  I have a jon boat with an outboard motor and I want to use a fish finder and every now and then I like to fish at night so I need to keep the lights burning.  There is no power outlet on the motor and I do have an abundance of sunlight around here.  I have looked at places like Radio Shack and a few boating supply places to no luck. Any suggestions? Ookie

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The US Navy has a policy of completely discharging submarine batteries (on diesel-electric boats), and then charging them all the way up. I believe that would have to be past tense. — Bob

I think there still are a few diesel boats out there. They are used for test platforms for all sorts of stuff — they’re real cheap to operate. I might be wrong. “Test discharges” are done at periodic intervals on nuclear boats too. The battery is discharged at a certain rate (like maybe the 4 hour rate — the battery should last 4 hours at that amperage). During the discharge the voltage of each cell is monitored. When a “good” cell (it’s sort of a judgement call) falls to a certain voltage the test is over. The cells that don’t make it (i.e. their voltage dropped too fast — all of the voltages are graphed on the fly) are “jumpered out”. Sometimes individual cells are replaced when you get back to port. Once enough cells have been jumpered out the whole battery is replaced (usually right after the warrantee expires This whole thing is ususally done at sea which is “interesting”. What if something goes wrong with the tea kettle, and you have a dead battery? …THAT’s what those jumper cables were for! — Bob Greschke             | sail.ing, 1.n. the fine art of getting wet and Socorro, New Mexico USA  |                becoming ill while slowly going

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am using a automatic battery charger that turns itself off when the charge is complete and then turns itself on whenever it is needed.  My question is can you leave the charger on for a period of time without doing any damage to the battery? Also, what is the best and easiest way to determine of the battery should be replaced. In my experience there is no great difference in battery life between keeping a battery fully charged, or nearly so, and allowing the battery to completely discharge once in a while.  Some people swear by discharging a battery once in a while, but I don’t presribe to that.

The US Navy has a policy of completely discharging submarine batteries (on diesel-electric boats), and then charging them all the way up.  The way I understand it is that the plates in the battery tend to be consumed over the life of the battery, and the discharge-charge process tends to equalize the plate consumption between cells and within respective cells. -Dennis

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The US Navy has a policy of completely discharging submarine batteries (on diesel-electric boats), and then charging them all the way up.

I believe that would have to be past tense. — Bob         Robert J. Hanners                          Carderock Division         -the dry dB game-                          Annapolis, Maryland

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:section deleted RM RM  If the battery has removable caps, you can also get an idea of the RMusing a hydrometer.  This is a device that looks like an oversized ey RMwith RMseveral colored balls in it.  You dip it into the battery, and suck u RMelectrolyte.  The different colored balls have different densities, a RMfloat RMor not depending on the density of the electrolyte.  The electrolyte RMchanges RMwith charge, so a discharged battery will float no balls while a full RMbattery will float all of them.  If the electrolyte is weak, it will RMfull RMcharge.  But be sure that you charged the battery fully before you ru RMtest, as RMsimply using the battery will give you the same result. RM There is an alternate style of of hydrometer which contains a single long float and a scale. The book “Living on 12 Volt with Ample Power” by David Smead, Ruth Ishihara ISBN 0-945415-02-8 does an excellent job of discussing 3 step charging and batter reconditioning(plus many other related topics).  * CmpQwk 1.40g #273 * Drop your carrier…we have you surrounded!

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[lots of good stuff about batteries]  If the battery has removable caps, you can also get an idea of the health by using a hydrometer.  This is a device that looks like an oversized eyedroper with several colored balls in it.  You dip it into the battery, and suck up some electrolyte.  The different colored balls have different densities, and will float or not depending on the density of the electrolyte.  The electrolyte density changes with charge, so a discharged battery will float no balls while a fully charged battery will float all of them.  If the electrolyte is weak, it will not show full charge.  But be sure that you charged the battery fully before you run this test, as simply using the battery will give you the same result.

If you’ll be using your batteries over a wide range of temperatures (40 degrees Fahrenheit, for example) it’s a good idea to consider getting a “real” hygrometer. Such devices have a floating glass capsule, weighted with a bit of lead, and the capsule has a scale on it, labelled with different temperatures. When you suck up the electrolyte into the dropper, the capsule sits, submerged, at some level in the dropper, and the line corresponding to the current temperature on the capsule points to some “density” on the scale marked on the wall of the dropper. The nice thing about this is that it gives you a temperature-compensated state of charge, which is what you really want. The five-balls items are OK, but they’re not a real precision instrument. Alas, finding a *real* hygrometer is not so easy any more… -John

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Leaving a battery charger on all the time…

If the charger actually works correctly, it should be all right to leave it on.  The voltage on the battery should not be more than about 13.5 volts after the battery is fully charged (can be higher during the charge cycle) The average current should be less than an amp (often hard to measure since these chargers usually pulse on and off after the battery is charged) and you should not have to add water more often than once a month. If the water is going out faster than that, the battery might be damaged. Checking a battery…

I don’t know of a good way other than to put a light load on it and see how long it runs.  There are several signs of a bad battery: 1. Continues to draw more than an amp from the charger after it should be fully charged, usually accompanied by bubbling from one or more cells. 2. Charger current (amps) drops to nearly nothing within a few minutes of connecting the charger, even though the battery was dead. 3. Specific gravity (measured with a hydrometer) is low after full charge. 4. Voltage is less than 12.8 volts after the charger has been off for more than 12 hours and no discharge during that time. 5. Discharges itself in a few days if the charger is turned off and no load applied. Maintenance free batteries…

While the “maintenance free” batteries sold for cars might be better described as “disposable”, this is NOT true of gelled electrolyte batteries such as the “Prevailer” brand.  They are superior to standard batteries in almost every way except that they cost 3 times as much. I have had mixed results with absorbed electrolyte batteries such as the “Stowaway” brand. Mike Michael H. Hughes                       Aboard, S/V Marynya (Alberg 37 yawl)

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I am using a automatic battery charger that turns itself off when the charge is complete and then turns itself on whenever it is needed.  My question is can you leave the charger on for a period of time without doing any damage to the battery? Also, what is the best and easiest way to determine of the battery should be replaced. Thanks –

Response:

I am using a automatic battery charger that turns itself off when the charge is complete and then turns itself on whenever it is needed.  My question is can you leave the charger on for a period of time without doing any damage to the battery? Also, what is the best and easiest way to determine of the battery should be replaced.

In my experience there is no great difference in battery life between keeping a battery fully charged, or nearly so, and allowing the battery to completely discharge once in a while.  Some people swear by discharging a battery once in a while, but I don’t presribe to that. The past two years I have kept my automatic charger on full time with no apparent ill effects.  Of course the batteries do discharge a little during use, when I’m just bobbing around on the ocean listening to the radio and such.  But soon as I’m back to port the charger goes on.  You do need to check the water level once in a awhile.  If it gets low the charger will stay on indefinately and could heat up significantly. One problem that does occur, however, is a little galvanic corrosion between my copper ‘alligator’ clips and the lead posts.  I ended up using a conductive grease which seems to help a little.  The charger can also get quite warm, so make sure its in a well ventilated area and away from paper, rags and so on. kevin

Response:

I am using a automatic battery charger that turns itself off when the charge is complete and then turns itself on whenever it is needed.  My question is can you leave the charger on for a period of time without doing any damage to the battery?

If the automatic function works properly, then yes.  The newer 3 stage battery chargers that are available are made such that they can be left on all the time with no ill effects on the battery.   With standard battery chargers, it is much better to leave the charger off when the batteries are full.  Otherwise, the higher voltate (13.5 volts) will cause deposites to form on the plates of the batteries, and will eventually destroy them. Also, what is the best and easiest way to determine of the battery should be replaced.

When the battery will not meet you needs.   A little bit better answer is;  It depends on the type of battery and the loads you present.   If the battery is used just for starting, then as long as it supplies adequate starting current with a reasonable reserve you are OK.  A good test is to pull the coil wire off so that the engine will not start and then crank the engine for a while (only crank for a few seconds, then let the starter cool off).  Pretend the engine is being hard to start (flooded, cold, etc).  If the battery gives you enough time so that you are satisfied that the engine would have really started (or you would have given up and started looking for a reason) then the battery is OK.  On the other hand, if it cranked for just a few seconds longer that it normally does before it starts, you can bet that it will leave you stranded sometime soon.   Deep cycle batteries are a little different.  The real test is to put a one amp load on the battery and watch the voltate.  A 100 amp-hour battery will maintain 11.5 volts for 100 hours.  And no, it is not fair to put 100 amps for one hour.

The higher the load, the smaller the effective amp-hour will be.  A better way (unless you have lots of time on your hands) is to simply judge your battery based on past performance.  As the battery ages, the capacity will decline.  After a while, the rate of decline will get worse, untill eventually it will not hold a charge for any time at all.   If the battery has removable caps, you can also get an idea of the health by using a hydrometer.  This is a device that looks like an oversized eyedroper with several colored balls in it.  You dip it into the battery, and suck up some electrolyte.  The different colored balls have different densities, and will float or not depending on the density of the electrolyte.  The electrolyte density changes with charge, so a discharged battery will float no balls while a fully charged battery will float all of them.  If the electrolyte is weak, it will not show full charge.  But be sure that you charged the battery fully before you run this test, as simply using the battery will give you the same result. Thanks –

My best suggestion is to allways use batteries (at least for deep cycle applications) that have removable caps.  The so called ‘maintenance free’ batteries should be called ‘unmaintainable’.  They work on the basis of a chemical in the caps that react with the hydrogen and oxygen gas that is generated by the battery doing it’s thing and recombining them back into water.  But heavy loads and especially overcharging overloads the mechanism, and you lose water anyway.  At least with removable caps you have the option of adding more water back in.         Rod McInnis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

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In my experience there is no great difference in battery life between keeping a battery fully charged, or nearly so, and allowing the battery to completely discharge once in a while.  Some people swear by discharging a battery once in a while, but I don’t presribe to that.

Watch out here.  A deep cycle battery is built to survive a full discharge cycle. A standard cranking battery is not, and can be damaged by allowing it to completely discharge.  I understand that gel cells are even better at surviving discharges than are lead acid.     NiCad batteries are a different animal altogether.  Nicads suffer from two things that lead acid and gel cells are immune from.  The first is ‘memory’ and the second relates to the dramatic change in resistance between a full and discharged cell.   as I understand it, the ‘memory’ effect in only seen on that have a very precise and repeated charge/discharge cycle (satelites are the exampe here).  Ordinary use does not show this problem   A problem that does exist in ordinary use is the fact that a fully charged cell can become very high resistance (to being charged) while a discharged cell becomes very low.  What happens is that one cell, being the ‘weak link’ of having just slightly lower capacity of all the others, becomes more discharged than all the others.  During recharge, the other cells reach full charge first (since they were not discharged as far) and their resistance goes up.  The increase in resistance blocks the charging current that the low cell needs.  Next discharge cycle, the weak cell is starting off without a full charge.  So the recharge cycle, it starts off lower, and gets even less.  The cycle repeats untill the weak cell is fully discharged while the other cells are fully charged.   To prevent this from happening, you can full discharge the battery pack so that all cells start from zero.  You do this by leaving the device on untill the battery shows no sign of life.  Then you charge it back up.   But all batteries can be damaged from being left in a discharged state.  On some batteries it may be OK to discharge them all the way, but don’t leave them that way for very long. The past two years I have kept my automatic charger on full time with no apparent ill effects.  Of course the batteries do discharge a little during use, when I’m just bobbing around on the ocean listening to the radio and such.  But soon as I’m back to port the charger goes on.  You do need to check the water level once in a awhile.  If it gets low the charger will stay on indefinately and could heat up significantly. One problem that does occur, however, is a little galvanic corrosion between my copper ‘alligator’ clips and the lead posts.  I ended up using a conductive grease which seems to help a little.  The charger can also get quite warm, so make sure its in a well ventilated area and away from paper, rags and so on. kevin

Rod McInnis

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Question:

I have been looking for rv solar panel battery charger a good solar battery charger to charge AAA, AA, C, and D batteries with (9V would be nice too, but apparently not practical.  I was going to buy the “11 in 1″ charger that is available readily through several internet sellers for $22 to $25 U.S. I think it is model ES879.  I can get it here in Canada for about $34 (Canadian), but the supplier tells me that they were having problems with them, so they were awaiting word from the manufacturer as to correcting the problems before ordering any more. Does anyone on the group have one of these units?  Are you satisfied with it’s performance?  Any problems? rv solar panel battery chargerAlternatively, I thought it would be advantageous to have a solar powered charger unit that could also be powered by AC power.  I found a unit at http://www.wildwestweb.com/public/Jupiter.html This unit handles 4 batteries at a time, and will charge both NiCad and regular alkalines.  The unit itself is a Saitek Eco-charger, with a plug-in 6.75 volt solar panel.  A bit pricey at $190.00 U.S. for the complete unit, or $69 for the charger unit only. One step further:  I looked up Saitek at rv solar panel battery charger http://www.saitekusa.com I can buy the Eco-charger (unit only) from them for $60 U.S., and then add a solar panel from elsewhere, but I don’t know enough about panels to know what to look for (size, voltage, output, etc.)  They also have another charger that handles NiCad and NiMh batteries including 9 Volt for $80 U.S — don’t know if this one can take a solar panel, though — specs are on their way to me via snail mail. Does anyone have either of these Saitek units?  With solar panel? Comments, thoughts, and advice would be very much appreciated, especially with regards to what kind of solar panel to get to go with these units if I choose one of the Saitek models.  Thank you in advance. rv solar panel battery charger

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Question:

There are a fair number of solar panel battery charger regulator requests on where to find Solar Battery Chargers.  The ones I have seen (thus far) are fairly cheap and whose construction quality and ability to deliver over the long haul is suspect. Here is an alternative suggestion:  Adapt a quality existing product to solar operaton.solar panel battery charger regulator  Its really pretty easy. Radio Shack sells 2 models of chargers worth your attention: #1 Catalogue # 23-410 NiCad/Ni-MH Conditioner Charger $49.95 This model charges all sizes of Ni-Cad and Ni-MH cells only.  Its “smart” and properly cycles the battery through several unique stages of the proper charging sequence. #2 Catalogue #23-375,  Ray-o-Vac Renewal Battery Charger Power Station.  $19.95.  I have also seen these ar K-Mart for what I remember is/was about the same price.solar panel battery charger regulator   This product charges renewable Alkaline batteries only. Alkaline, NiCad and, Ni-MH batteries all has their strong points. Choose the type of battery as needed.  One source for very high capacity, quality Ni-Cads is the EH Yost company: http://www.batteriesamerica.com (608) 831-3443 To “Solarize” one of these products, I would open it up and find the DC point where just before any control of the charging current is done.   Open that point and insert a common Digital Volt Meter set to read current.  ”Load up” the charger with largest dead batteries it can hold and being carful not to electrocute yourself, plug it in. After a few minutes, read the steady state charging current off the VTVM and write it down.   That number represents the number of AMPS your solar source will need to produce. Unplug the charger, remove the DVM and solar panel battery charger regulator reconnect the point you opened. Find the opposite polarity point the charging DC (ahead of any charging regulation device).   Again, plug the charger and measure the voltage across the 2 aforementioned DC points and write it down.  That number is the voltage your Solar source will need to produce. Taking those two measurements, multiply the Voltage X Amperage.  This number will give you the wattage.  If your readings were 15V at 1amp, you would need a Solar Panel capable of delivering 15W.  Output voltage of the array is important !solar panel battery charger regulator  That output voltage can be a little (couple volts) higher than DC voltage you measured but never lower as the batteries will not charge.  The charge controller needs voltage “head room” to operate properly.   Charge rate is determined by the voltage applied across the battery terminals which is the job of the charge controller.  It works with the ever changing internal battery resistance and maintains an optimum charge rate.  To high a rate, the batteries will over heat and become damaged (or even explode). Personally, I size the solar panel at about 130% capacity to allow for clouds, etc…. Disconnect the AC Supply at approximately the same points you measured and substitute your solar source.  That is, electrically ahead of the charge controller.  The clever craftsperson might add versitility and set up their new system to be capable of manually switching from AC to Solar.  For those who would be “really clever,”solar panel battery charger regulator I would advise against using blocking diodes. Voila ! you have a quality solar charger whose array is sized for maximum charging capacity. I am going to give this a try, if you want to see my results and some sort of plan, respond here and we’ll see what we can do. ciao Reply to: RadioKrafter”at”hotmail.com” To unmuggle, change the “at” to @ “In this country, we have three ways to secure our freedom.  The ballot box, the jury box, and if those don’t work, the cartridge box.”

Response:

I’m eagerly awaiting your results postings.solar panel battery charger regulator I’ll probably build to your specs rather than duplicate your research!  There are a fair number of requests on where to find Solar Battery Chargers.  The ones I have seen (thus far) are fairly cheap and whose construction quality and ability to deliver over the long haul is suspect. Here is an alternative suggestion:  Adapt a quality existing product to solar operaton.  Its really pretty easy. Radio Shack sells 2 models of chargers worth your attention:solar panel battery charger regulator I have also seen these ar K-Mart for what I remember is/was about the same price.   This product charges renewable Alkaline batteries only. Alkaline, NiCad and, Ni-MH batteries all has their strong points. Choose the type of battery as needed.  One source for very high capacity, quality Ni-Cads is the EH Yost company: http://www.batteriesamerica.com (608) 831-3443 To “Solarize” one of these products, I would open it up and find the DC point where just before any control of the charging current is done.   Open that point and insert a common Digital Volt Meter set to read current.  ”Load up” the charger with largest dead batteries it can hold and being carful not to electrocute yourself, plug it in. After a few minutes, read the steady state charging current off the VTVM and write it down.   That number represents the number of AMPS your solar source will need to produce. Unplug the charger, remove the DVM and reconnect the point you opened. Find the opposite polarity point the charging DC (ahead of any charging regulation device).   Again, plug the charger and measure the voltage across the 2 aforementioned DC points and write it down.  That number is the voltage your Solar source will need to produce. Taking those two measurements, multiply the Voltage X Amperage.  This number will give you the wattage.  If your readings were 15V at 1amp, you would need a Solar Panel capable of delivering 15W.  Output voltage of the array is important !  That output voltage can be a little (couple volts) higher than DC voltage you measured but never lower as the batteries will not charge.  The charge controller needs voltage “head room” to operate properly.   Charge rate is determined by the voltage applied across the battery terminals which is the job of the charge controller.  It works with the ever changing internal battery resistance and maintains an optimum charge rate.  To high a rate, the batteries will over heat and become damaged (or even explode). Personally, I size the solar panel at about 130% capacity to allow for clouds, etc…. Disconnect the AC Supply at approximately the same points you measured and substitute your solar source.  That is, electrically ahead of the charge controller.  The clever craftsperson might add versitility and set up their new system to be capable of manually switching from AC to Solar.  For those who would be “really clever,” I would advise against using blocking diodes. Voila ! you have a quality solar charger whose array is sized for maximum charging capacity. I am going to give this a try, if you want to see my results and some sort of plan, respond here and we’ll see what we can do. ciao Reply to: RadioKrafter”at”hotmail.com” To unmuggle, change the “at” to @ “In this country, we have three ways to secure our freedom.  The ballot box, the jury box, and if those don’t work, the cartridge box.”

Mike Patterson   –   Deacon Blues http://www.mindspring.com/~mikepatterson/ EAA #523920  NRA #920202222  ICQ #7161589 “Sharing the things I know and love with those of my kind…”  * In memory of Gunnery Sgt.Carlos N.Hathcock II “Long Tra’ng” – Semper Fidelis – Feb.23rd,1999 I never knew him, but I consider him an American hero.  * con?sult’ant n. 1. one who gives professional or technical advice 2. mental prostitute

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I’m eagerly awaiting your results postings. I’ll probably build to your specs rather than duplicate your research! solar panel battery charger regulator

I’ll try and put the results on a www page somewhere and post it’s URL here. Reply to: RadioKrafter”at”hotmail.com” To unmuggle, change the “at” to @ “In this country, we have three ways to secure our freedom.  The ballot box, the jury box, and if those don’t work, the cartridge box.”

Response:

whats the cost comparison between the two?  NiMh initial cost is higher than alkalines, but when you figure in the full charging, lack of memory effect, capacity of the NiMh, and the fact that one NiMh is more than equal to 500 alkalines of the same size.  I get a set of 4 AA NiMh 1500mAH Golds for around $21.00 Figures.  I paid about $6 for mine.  Bought a bunch of ‘em, with a nice Toshiba NiMh 4-cell charger for about 7 bucks. solar panel battery charger regulator

and yours are likely the  less than 1100mAH to 1300mAH, whereas mine are 1500mAH.  I want and need the capacity and pay for that capacity, if yours do well for your needs then good for you. 1st, is that they do NOT like getting warm when recharging, so stay away from any sources of heat when recharging, and make sure to let them cool off before putting them in a charger if they appear warm from exposure to heat or sunlight. You’re really outdoing yourself.  Nicads hate heat.  NiMh *always* gets warm to the touch, usually *very* warm.  They’re engineered to take it. solar panel battery charger regulator

They are engineered to take some heat that is true, but they are still not as tolerant of heat as say lead-acids or gell-cells, and that is what I base my statement on.   Lastly Donny boy…  why do you insist on quoting everything I say when you are only replying to a few sections of my post?! — BulkMailers and Email address compilers may purchase this individual email address for $25000.00 for use in their products. Anyone selling this email address or utilizing this email address for any commercial usage without a license from ShadowMAC is in violation of private property rights and violators WILL be be invoiced for usage. Selling what you do not own is THEFT of private property!!! This is domain policy.solar panel battery charger regulator

Response:

Personally I no longer have any NiCads, and only use Ni-Mh, as Ni-Mh has the same voltage output as regular alkalines and other regular batteries do, unlike NiCads which are .25 volts lower per cell used.  Plus Ni-Mh have a tendency to store as much as Alks do compared to NiCads which hold less… so that is a definate plus in my book. solar panel battery charger regulator

NiMh initial cost is higher than alkalines, but when you figure in the full charging, lack of memory effect, capacity of the NiMh, and the fact that one NiMh is more than equal to 500 alkalines of the same size.   I get a set of 4 AA NiMh 1500mAH Golds for around $21.00  Go ahead and figure a 4 pack of my NiMh’s equals more than 2000 alkalines, and perform your own calcs withe the price of your favorite alkalines..solar panel battery charger regulator.  I know my NiMh out perform, out-capacity/out-last, and out live (rechargeable) alkalines by a major number.   So how many AA alkalines can you get for $21.00?   I know you can’t get even 100 alkalines for $21.00 much less 2000 alkalines.   I only have a couple of initial problems changing to NiMh batteries… 1st, is that they do NOT like getting warm when recharging, so stay away from any sources of heat when recharging, and make sure to let them cool off before putting them in a charger if they appear warm from exposure to heat or sunlight. 2nd, be sure to mark each set you use, and try to keep each set together during both usage and recharging…  mixing and matching NiMh batteries is NOT a good idea, esp. when recharging them.   Other than that, I have no downsides to NiMh to date.   I’ve been buying from a place which seems to do a pretty good job, but after my first set, I have only been buying the 1500mAH Golds by Quest…solar panel battery charger regulator BulkMailers and Email address compilers may purchase this individual email address for $25000.00 for use in their products. Anyone selling this email address or utilizing this email address for any commercial usage without a license from ShadowMAC is in violation of private property rights and violators WILL be be invoiced for usage. Selling what you do not own is THEFT of private property!!

Response:

solar panel battery charger regulatorI paid about $6 for mine.  Bought a bunch of ‘em, with a nice Toshiba NiMh 4-cell charger for about 7 bucks.  and yours are likely the  less than 1100mAH to 1300mAH, whereas mine are 1500mAH.  I want and need the capacity and pay for that capacity, if yours do well for your needs then good for you. 1300mah.  If that 200 mah increment means *that* much to you, then go ahead and pay the extra $3.75 per cell. That’s two and a half times the cost.  I’d rather buy twice the number of cells, have twice the power (rather than a meager increment), and still have a chunk o’ change in my pocket.

To each their own. I prefer not having to change batteries as often, you don’t mind changing batteries…  no big deal either way. OBTW, inasmuch as I bought mine a year ago, I’ll be charitable and suggest that perhaps they’re available at a better price now.  IOW, all factors taken into account, I think you paid through the nose.  Looks like some battery dealer musta seen you hopping over *his* fence, eh?

Well mine are a year or two old as well, I used the web page to determine current pricing, so I did not know for sure the current pricing.   Also, I have to admit to not verifying my voltage info…  after looking at my NiMh I see 1.2VDC, so yes I was incorrect as to the voltage and can only offer that I must have gained the impression of higher voltage due to their performance.  They are engineered to take some heat that is true, but they are still not as tolerant of heat as say lead-acids or gell-cells, and that is what I base my statement on. Still smokin’ that weed eh? Lead-acid (of any stripe) do not like heat very well at all.

Incorrect.  My homesite operates from a pair HUP battery packs via inverter (or genny backup during low sun or during periods of maintainence of the DC system), these are lead-acid batteries and they get fairly warm at times during charging…  this charging is called gasification (an action needed by all lead-acid types to properly and fully charge up. And I’m still waiting for your substantiation of your assertion that NiMh cells have the same voltage as Alkalines. Well, where’s the proof?

Already made my statement above.  You can go play with yourself because for once you are correct about something…  hell a lucky toss of dice will do that for you too. — BulkMailers and Email address compilers may purchase this individual email address for $25000.00 for use in their products. Anyone selling this email address or utilizing this email address for any commercial usage without a license from ShadowMAC is in violation of private property rights and violators WILL be be invoiced for usage. Selling what you do not own is THEFT of private property!

Response:

To each their own. I prefer not having to change batteries as often, you don’t mind changing batteries…  no big deal either way. Given the miniscule delta, all I can say is that life must be *very* precious to you, to treasure a few seconds *that* much.  I’m confused, however, when I contrast this apparent verve de vivre with your previously demonstrated apparent death wish mentality.

Providing for your constant idiocy, I am hardly suprised by the above…  I will point out to you oh idiotic one that 200mAH difference between your batteries and mine is still about 1/6th of a battery worth, and that is quite a bit more…  now if it had only been 50mAH then I wouldn’t have bothered.  Also, I have to admit to not verifying my voltage info…  after looking at my NiMh I see 1.2VDC, so yes I was incorrect as to the voltage and can only offer that I must have gained the impression of higher voltage due to their performance. How about that.

No idea what you are going on about. Well, where’s the proof?  Already made my statement above.  You can go play with yourself because for once you are correct about something…  hell a lucky toss of dice will do that for you too. Nothing like a sore loser.

Ahh, so to your poor wee mind everything must have a winner and a loser eh?   Poor thing. — BulkMailers and Email address compilers may purchase this individual email address for $25000.00 for use in their products. Anyone selling this email address or utilizing this email address for any commercial usage without a license from ShadowMAC is in violation of private property rights and violators WILL be be invoiced for usage. Selling what you do not own is THEFT of private property

Hmmm, could have sworn they were…  will have to open one of my cameras and look at them again.   However, while I will not swear under oath they are the same voltage, I do know that they last a LOT longer than alkalines, which may be where I got that other bit.   Tried and true examples of alks vs NiMh vs NiCad on a camera flash, as many know camera flashes eat a LOT of batteries, esp. good at eating alk batteries.  NiMh is using my 1500mAH Quest’s. Alkalines    Nimh         TYPE 25-50        130-170      SHOTS PER CHARGE Once again you weigh in, and fall flat on your face.

Not at all.  But as far as flat faced, heck we all know yours is as flat as if it was milled flat within millionths of a tolerence.   I do know the NiMH batteries last a hell of a lot longer than alkalines do, I also know that in my flashlights & flashlights that they appear brighter than alkalines do, and I could have sworn they were higher voltage than NiCads as well.  Will double check in the morning. — BulkMailers and Email address compilers may purchase this individual email address for $25000.00 for use in their products. Anyone selling this email address or utilizing this email address for any commercial usage without a license from ShadowMAC is in violation of private property rights and violators WILL be be invoiced for usage. Selling what you do not own is THEFT of private property!!

Where did you find “C” and “D” sized Ni-Mh batteries?  Personally I no longer have any NiCads, and only use Ni-Mh, as Ni-Mh has the same voltage output as regular alkalines and other regular batteries do, unlike NiCads which are .25 volts lower per cell used.  Plus Ni-Mh have a tendency to store as much as Alks do compared to NiCads which hold less… so that is a definate plus in my book.

Most of those solar chargers also act like little solar cookers and we know how nicads hate heat. Much better designs keeps nicads in the shade with extension cords to solar panels that are in the sun.

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Personally I no longer have any NiCads, and only use Ni-Mh, as Ni-Mh has the same voltage output as regular alkalines and other regular batteries do, unlike NiCads which are .25 volts lower per cell used.  Plus Ni-Mh have a tendency to store as much as Alks do compared to NiCads which hold less… so that is a definate plus in my book. solar panel battery charger regulator

Raul, whats the cost comparison between the two?

Response:

Here is an alternative suggestion:  Adapt a quality existing product to solar operaton.  Its really pretty easy.

Correct. Radio Shack sells 2 models of chargers worth your attention: #1 Catalogue # 23-410 NiCad/Ni-MH Conditioner Charger $49.95 This model charges all sizes of Ni-Cad and Ni-MH cells only.  Its “smart” and properly cycles the battery through several unique stages of the proper charging sequence.

Personally I no longer have any NiCads, and only use Ni-Mh, as Ni-Mh has the same voltage output as regular alkalines and other regular batteries do, unlike NiCads which are .25 volts lower per cell used.  Plus Ni-Mh have a tendency to store as much as Alks do compared to NiCads which hold less… so that is a definate plus in my book. — BulkMailers and Email address compilers may purchase this individual email address for $25000.00 for use in their products. Anyone selling this email address or utilizing this email address for any commercial usage without a license from ShadowMAC is in violation of private property rights and violators WILL be be invoiced for usage. Selling what you do not own is THEFT of private property!!! This is domain policy. http://shadowmac.org/license_schedule.html

Response:

Figures.  I paid about $6 for mine.  Bought a bunch of ‘em, with a nice Toshiba NiMh 4-cell charger for about 7 bucks. 1300mah.  If that 200 mah increment means *that* much to you, then go ahead and pay the extra $3.75 per cell. That’s two and a half times the cost.  I’d rather buy twice the number of cells, have twice the power (rather than a meager increment), and still have a chunk o’ change in my pocket. Say, that’s exactly what I did!

Where’s your source? sdb -

Response:

Nothing like a sore loser.  Ahh, so to your poor wee mind everything must have a winner and a loser eh?  Poor thing. Play the sore loser, wear the tag, loser

Response:

Question:

It seems that quick-charging NiCd or rv solar panel battery charger NiMH batteries is best done by alternating deep charge and shallow discharge. E.g. a set of penlites in series with 1 Amp cycling with 100 mA discharge. With an AC charger this is no problem. But with a full DC power source like a solar panel (or a car battery) this requires a little circuitry. How can I make such a circuit ( the panel is 8 V DC 1 Amp when baking in the Sun) which pulse-charges four NiCd or NiMHs (5 Volts) this way ? rv solar panel battery charger

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writes It seems that quick-charging NiCd or NiMH batteries is best done by alternating deep charge and shallow discharge. E.g. a set of penlites in series with 1 Amp cycling with 100 mA discharge. With an AC charger this is no problem. But with a full DC power source like a solar panel (or a car battery) this requires a little circuitry. How can I make such a circuit ( the panel is 8 V DC 1 Amp when baking in the Sun) which pulse-charges four NiCd or NiMHs (5 Volts) this way ? Klaas

Hi..Do you know if NiMH batteries suffer from ‘memory effect’?rv solar panel battery charger

Response:

No, NiMH don.t suffer a memory effect. And with newer NiCd’s it is not as bad as most people think. When it shows up, just discharge the battery to *zero* volts (by 0.5-1 * capacity in Ah, *not* shortcircuiting !) and then recharge. The memory effect is gone then. This does *not* tell that there is no limitation on the total number of charge-discharge cycles, which is about 1000 for NiCd and 500 for NiMH. rv solar panel battery charger

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No, NiMH don.t suffer a memory effect. And with newer NiCd’s it is not as bad as most people think. When it shows up, just discharge the battery to *zero* volts (by 0.5-1 * capacity in Ah, *not* shortcircuiting !) and then recharge. The memory effect is gone then. This does *not* tell that there is no limitation on the total number of charge-discharge cycles, which is about 1000 for NiCd and 500 for NiMH. rv solar panel battery charger

…rv solar panel battery charger

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rv solar panel battery chargerNo, NiMH don.t suffer a memory effect. And with newer NiCd’s it is not as bad as most people think. When it shows up, just discharge the battery to *zero* volts (by 0.5-1 * capacity in Ah, *not* shortcircuiting !) and then recharge. The memory effect is gone then. This does *not* tell that there is no limitation on the total number of charge-discharge cycles, which is about 1000 for NiCd and 500 for NiMH. Klaas … and as far as I have heard it is good to discharge them now and then anyway. A little discharge and a little charge is no good! This shall be better with next generation: Lithium-Ion …just what I picked up some place…. – Andreas Haffner

Ok, I have been lurking, and here is my question: What will actually be the next generation?  NiMH appears to have an established presence in the market, but I’ve noticed with my computer purchasing that now NiMH appears to going out and Lithium Ion appears to coming in. Moreover, some real effort is being made toward Zinc-Air, by Air Energy Resources, but this is still in the background. Given my own personal experience that Lithium Ion batteries appear to last a long time (in such minor experiences as camera and computer use), I have been wondering if NiMH can remain competitive in any way. If not, then is GM making an error to commit to NiMH for use in its electric car? My aside on this is that although the development of larger batteries appears to be a somewhat different process than smaller batteries, the heated-up pace of battery development for smaller devices (computers, etc.) will hopefully have an impact on the larger car-oriented battery development. In the case of Zinc-Air, I believe that while some of the problems have been solved at the smaller level, I am not sure as to whether this has helped make things progress at the larger level.rv solar panel battery charger

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rv solar panel battery chargerdon.t suffer a memory effect. And with newer NiCd’s it is not as bad as most people think. When it shows up, just discharge the battery to *zero* volts (by 0.5-1 * capacity in Ah, *not* shortcircuiting !) and then recharge. The memory effect is gone then. This does *not* tell that there is no limitation on the total number of charge-discharge cycles, which is about 1000 for NiCd and 500 for NiMH. rv solar panel battery charger

Guess I agree with the above and offer the following *unscientific tests* I have used an erricson 237 mobile phone for the last 22 months. Each night the NiMH battery is charged (~3hrs for full charge) but is generally left on the charger for up to 8 hours. That cell powers the phone for ~12-14 hours standby. Its done this each day for the last 22months and so far shows NO sign of reduced capacity. 22 months is 650 full cycles. Today that phone has been on standby for 10.5 hrs and right now it’s *showing* 50% battery. The battery is 6V and I think capacity is 1AH, although markings are not clear on this point. if all NiMh batteries work like this then Im sold!. Aanother phone (NEC nicad) was being incorrectly charged by spending most of its time on the charging cradle. That battery fell from 20hrs standby to <4hrs over a 6 month period!! Since the owner (mother-in-law!) was told to *cycle* it she claims it lasts much longer now!  rv solar panel battery charger

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It seems that quick-charging NiCd or NiMH batteries is best done by alternating deep charge and shallow discharge. E.g. a set of penlites in series with 1 Amp cycling with 100 mA discharge. With an AC charger this is no problem. But with a full DC power source like a solar panel (or a car battery) this requires a little circuitry. How can I make such a circuit ( the panel is 8 V DC 1 Amp when baking in the Sun) which pulse-charges four NiCd or NiMHs (5 Volts) this way ? rv solar panel battery chargerGuess I agree with the above and offer the following *unscientific tests* I have used an erricson 237 mobile phone for the last 22 months. Each night the NiMH battery is charged (~3hrs for full charge) but is generally left on the charger for up to 8 hours. That cell powers the phone for ~12-14 hours standby. Its done this each day for the last 22months and so far shows NO sign of reduced capacity. 22 months is 650 full cycles. Today that phone has been on standby for 10.5 hrs and right now it’s *showing* 50% battery. The battery is 6V and I think capacity is 1AH, although markings are not clear on this point. if all NiMh batteries work like this then Im sold!. Aanother phone (NEC nicad) was being incorrectly charged by spending most of its time on the charging cradle. That battery fell from 20hrs standby to <4hrs over a 6 month period!! Since the owner (mother-in-law!) was told to *cycle* it she claims it lasts much longer now!  :-) Regards Dennis Hobbs

Does anyone have any first-hand experience of how this corresponds to Lithium-Ion performance? rv solar panel battery charger

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Question:

I have several summer/rv vehicles/craft and have a hard time starting them when the new season comes around.

I

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Hello I am using a 6 amp battery charger portable unit. One of those hardware store specials. Is this ok to use on the boat while in port hooked up for a few weeks at a time. It does draw down as the batteries charge up but I dont think shuts completely down. possibly a constant minimum of 2 amps. A lot of times while living on board this is our main convertor to DC because the complete boat is    12volt. any comments on this way of shore powering my vessel would be great. thanks

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If you are using this rv solar panel battery charger charger to charge your deep cycle marine batteries – that is NOT good. Deep cycle marine batteries require a minimum of 10 amps super charge at first, then a 2 amp trickle to maintain them.

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would not have one on any boat that I was taking care of have that the charger has the neutral leg grounded to the case and if you set them down on a wet surface thy will bleed ac to ground throughout the hull /prop salt water pump etc thy don’t belong on a boat .

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What are you saying here, rv solar panel battery charger?  Do you mean that you are using the charger and battery in place of a 12 volt converter?  That’s gotta be tough on the battery.  Wouldn’t it be cheaper to buy a converter rather than replace your battery sooner? It does draw down as the batteries charge up but I dont think shuts completely down. possibly a constant minimum of 2 amps.

Well, it took me a while.  But, I eventually got rv solar panel battery charger the definitive answer on Marine batteries last year.  According to the manufacurer, the best way to recharge these batteries is to use a high amp(say 10 amp or so) charge followed by a trickle charge.  They tell me that to use a trickle charger only, might result in no charge to the battery.  Also, that  a larger amperage charger will only charge the battery to about 90%. The trickle charger will bring it to 100%.   They say a battery sitting idle will lose about 10% of it’s charge in a month.  Presumably, it’s indoors in the winter. Overcharging is every bit as bad for battery life as undercharging. Perhaps worse.  Get yourself a reliable charger.  Test it to make sure it shuts down completely.  If you’re staying dockside, buy a 12 volt converter.

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The simplest fix is to buy a srv solar panel battery charger olar panel regulator and put it between the charger and the battery.  This is what I have done in Australia, as the regulator and a Kmart charger together cost less than a transformer or a new 220 volt smart charger. Don radcliffe s/v Klondike

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That is a really good idea! I like to keep a continous current-mode charge (not a great idea anyway) to below 1/2% of the amp-hour rating of the battery bank.

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Don’t leave this charger rv solar panel battery charger hooked to ANY battery more than 16 hours. Left “a few weeks”, you’ll find your battery boiled dry and ruined with overcharging!

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Not only that, but the typical “hardware store special” charger is not isolated between the AC input side and the 12v output side.  This can cause a big-time galvanic corrosion problem in your boat and the others around you.

I don’t think that any UL-rated (CSA approved in Canada) automotive charger will have this problem (non-isolation) whereas some much more expensive marine chargers might.

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Not only that, but the typical “hardware store special” charger is not isolated between the AC input side and the 12v output side.  This can cause a big-time galvanic corrosion problem in your boat and the others around you. It’s best to invest in a good “three-stage” charger that will keep your batteries in good condition for many years.  The extra cost will pay itself back in battery life. Don – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t leave this charger hooked to ANY battery more than 16 hours. Left “a few weeks”, you’ll find your battery boiled dry and ruined with overcharging! Larry…. Hello I am using a 6 amp battery charger portable unit. One of those hardware store specials. Is this ok to use on the boat while in port hooked up for a few weeks at a time. It does draw down as the batteries charge up but I dont think shuts completely down. possibly a constant minimum of 2 amps. A lot of times while living on board this is our main convertor to DC because the complete boat is    12volt. any comments on this way of shore powering my vessel would be great. thanks